Pilots!!!!

[hh_1015]

Let try.. i bet eneryone of us is even a little interested of how many "others" are out there looking for a job...?

Write down your licence (incl. ratings etc.), hours and how many months looking for it.

ill be the first one! so Be brave and list your details! in weeks we should have nice little list to look at... THANKS! :D

*Frozen ATPL, ME-IR,SEP, MCC, 215h 4months :(*

[laser85]

Frozen ATPL, ME-IR, SEP, MCC 245 HRS 4 MONTHS :suspect:

[MIKECR]

fATPL(CPL/MEIR/MCC), all ratings current. 350 hours, nearly 12 months of applying.

[danc]

Ouch... 12 months?

FATPL, CPL m/IR, MCC 315hours. 4 months. FI in progress.

[Jump-Seat64]

fATPL - CPL ME/IR MCC 235 Hours. All current and been looking since June 07

[MIKECR]

Yep...Ouch!! IR and ME renewals due in a few weeks as well, lots of expense!

There's maybe a glint of light at the end of the tunnell now though, things perhaps starting to happen. Nothing set in stone but ceratinly looking a bit rosier than before xmas. Theres a couple of jobs that might happen but its only thanks to good contacts. Cold calling with cv's has just been a waste of time.

[AlphaMale]

(I presume when you guys are saying '4 months' that means 4 months looking for a RHS in a Jet airliner? ... Or are we looking at aviation jobs from FI/Air Taxi/TP ops/Jet Ops?)

[Der_Fischmeister]

Hi there all ,
Lets encourage all u future Air-Taxi-Drivers...

Myself was doin FAA JAA Conversion ...then was willing to accept any job offered,AND THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE !
GUYS U NEED TO Qualify by earning your Wings .

I did Air taxi on Senecas in the Bahamas,then flew a Trislander around the Channel Islands ,followed by Cargo OPS on a Dornier 228.

Now im in a Fighter (LJ60) enjoying the good life and Executive Floors.

It will come ,look into other jobs then "LINEFLYING a 737" ....
Believe me at the end u fly a Cockpit ,its the lifestyle surrounding your Job which makes the difference .....
Cheers ya all and keep on hunting


Adios

[portsharbourflyer]

Don't sit around doing nothing, get working on building more hours as soon as you can, weather this is by instructing, aerial photography or any other kind of GA work. By the way single pilot op requirements means air taxi work is generally a non starter for low timers.

Had my first interview with 300 hours a couple years back, then not a thing until I reached over 700 hours then in the space of three months invited to six interviews (my previous posts say 5 well had one further phonecall since).

Assesments attended were Club 328, Cityjet(aptitude tests), Third company will remain nameless as this is the job I accepted,

Further invitaions to interview from IOS Skybus, DHL, Cityjet (interview invitation as a result of aptitude tests) and another charter outfit South of London, but had to decline as I already accepted an offer from the third interview.

Mid way through the rating at the moment. I built my hours from about a year and half of part time instructing and one season full time instructing. So in all it was three and a half years from qualifiying to getting the first job offer; however if I had taken the plunge with full time instructing I think the a job would have arisen sooner. So don't waste time hoping something will turn up go out and find any flying position. People talk about networking well if you are flying full time in any capacity you will meet the right people by default, you won't need to make an effort to network.

[tupues]

Alpha Male I cant stand your attitude on here.

[MIKECR]

I think you have to give yourself a timeline. For me, I said 12 months and if nothing turns up then bite the bullet and do the FI rating. Networking is absolutely the key to success and I have been fortunate that a number of very kind people have helped steer my cv towards the right desk. As a result im confident something might happen soon so i'll hold off on the FI for now. In the meantime, im keeping current - glider towing, right seating a King Air and flying at my local club. Air taxi would be great but sadly I dont have the hours. All good advice from the previous couple of posts, you've got to be proactive ladies and gents!

[Der_Fischmeister]

well dunno why not ...
its fact that most of the Rookies ,want to get out of school and sit in a 777.
All i can say poor Supervison Capt ,he has a lot to do ,since its different flying a PA28 around or a Jet Aircraft.

well sometimes that happens (mostly in India or other Countries down there).
Here in Europe ,well i still think u need a lot of luck or u are sponsored by an airline .

Whats soo wrong with getin experience...believe me i look back flying a Seneca ..soo much fun ...but then lifestyle is grab...

just my 50 cents ...

[AlphaMale]

Alpha Male I cant stand your attitude on here.


Care to explain? PM me if your shy.

It's a simple question. Pilots are saying they are not employed after 4 months and 12 month etc. Are they hell bent on landing a 737/A320 job or are they sending their CV's out to all aircraft operators?

If I had just blown £40k - £80k on getting a fATPL I'd open my horizons to a bit more than just the 737/320's.

Looking forward to your PM. :ok:

[MIKECR]

I cant speak for the other posters but I have an Excel spreadsheat with all the times/dates/contacts off applications i've sent. 72 cv's and applications i've sent in the last 12 months. Most to operators the average ppruner wouldnt have even heard off. Theres perhaps only a small handful that are 'jet' jobs.

[AlphaMale]

Mike - NOI with my post.

I'll probably be in your position in less than 2 years time and I'll be looking to apply to Jet, TP and Air Taxi operators as soon as the CPL/IR is complete. If I fail to get a job with any of the three I'll be looking to do a FIC and see where that takes me, then re-apply on a regular basis to the operators while my hours and building.

If there are no air taxi jobs around then I'll be re-jigging my plans. :bored:

[danc]

Thanks for the tips guys.
I totally agree with what you're saying and like alot of other people here my passion is flying and I look forward to teaching for a year or two full time before going for the airlines/corporate.
This is why signed up to an FI course shortly after completing the CPL mIR.

I think the thread may have lost it's direction though in that it not being a gripe as to why we dont have a job yet, more finding out who here is looking and what they have done so far?

It's very true though you need to be proactive about getting there and not just think short term (ie knowing what you want and routes to get there).

[degothia]

PPL, f-ATPL, ME, IR, CPL, 200h+ been looking for three days now and no offers. I give up!
No seriously, to fly air taxi in a Seneca would be a huge step up for me compared to my current job...
So to all you airline head huntes out there looking for new talents on PPRUNE, I am available!
D.

[danc]

Take a ticket and get in line degothia ;)

[speedrestriction]

AlphaMale, the problem with air taxi is that insurance companies who insure air taxi operators stipulate minimum hours for pilots. They are usually considerably more than the 200-250 odd which you will be leaving flight training with. I daresay there are far more 250 hour pilots employed by airlines than by air taxi operators in the UK.

A CV onto someones desk via a friend/contact is worth ten in the post. Chin up folks.

sr

[Go Smoke]

fATPL(CPL/MEIR/MCC), all ratings current. 320 hours - 2 weeks looking

Had a sniff of two jobs today. Not airline but twin ops though.
Been invited for interview for both of them.
They came about via contacts.
Fingers crossed.

[AlphaMale]

AlphaMale, the problem with air taxi is that insurance companies who insure air taxi operators stipulate minimum hours for pilots.

I've been told 400TT, 300 PIC, 40 ME IFR is what you need for Air Taxi. So people like MIKECR aren't that far away with their 350hrs :confused:

[tom_ace]

qualified Nov '07 - 350 hours, no sniff of a job on anything bigger than a 172, work for an aerial photography outfit occasionally. Alpha male, most air taxi companies want at least 700 hours and around 50 hours SE IFR time, so that one is out of the window. also, most people need something to pay the debts off, which is why they apply to bigger companies!

[Polarhero]

The jobs are out to be had.

I was at the time.....
fATPL ME/IR MCC FI 300hrs when i got a job.
I would have taken anything but got lucky and now on A321, it is just a case of getting your cv out as much as you can.

One of the things i was told by the recruiters was that they like to see progression not stagnation.
So don't wait, get out and do anything, even if it is only for a few months, just do it. Don't just do the minimum amount of hours to keep the licence, find a club that needs aircraft ferried to maintenance if funds are short.

Anything you can do to make your cv stand out helps.

[GrahamK123]

eh :rolleyes:

[portsharbourflyer]

Alpha Male,

JAR ops requirements for single pilot air taxi is 700 total time with at least 40 p1 multi IFR. Due to the shortage some operators are now taking people with the minimum, however it was quite common when the job market wasn't quite so good for air taxi firms to ask for 1000 hours total with between 100 to 200 multi.

Centreline air charter have a concession such that they are able to employ pilots with 400 hours total time for single pilots ops, but I believe this is the only the company to my knowledge with this concession ( there may be one or two others of course). I Infact the post where you read the 400 tt requirement was requirement was written by the manager of Centreline.


f you are lucky as a safety pilot for an air taxi firm you may be able to log the multi time flying empty sectors, but otherwise to obtain the multi-time you may be looking at spending around 6000 pounds on an hour building trip to the states (100 pounds an hour is about the cheapest hire for twins in the US, so take in account all your other expenses). However the people I have known to get safety pilot postion in order to obtain the mulit time for single pilot ops have tended to be instructors with 700-1000 hours. At the moment any one with 700-1000 hours has a good chance of getting an interview with a jet or turboprop operator (see my previous post).

So if you spend 6000 on the twin time at low hours Centreline is the only air taxi firm that could employ you; just because you have the multi time doesn't mean you will pass the company base check.

[AlphaMale]

portsharbourflyer - Thanks for the constructive post, I had heard about the 700hr rule before but when Phill posted this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3714428#post3714428) I guessed it showed me that with 400TT there are jobs spaces even for a low hour fATPL holder.

Personally I am looking forward to instructing for a year or two but given the chance of flying a jet I'm hardly going to turn it down.

Good luck with the new job too you've worked for it.

Graham - Nice original post ;) ... 'pompus' is actually spelt 'pompous' just to let you know :ouch:

Can I be bothered to bite the bait? :rolleyes:

[timzsta]

CPL/IR issued 2004.
FIC completed 2006.

600 hours. 480 P1. 50 IFR 30 ME 320 FI.

[Caudillo]

Alphamale, I presume we're talking about the UK rather than somewhere with a big outback like canada. I want a taxi, I get one with a three pointed star driven by a man from Kashmir. Any further I drive myself or catch a train. These guys are more than entitled to look to the jets as their first jobs. By all means do your apprenticeship, working your way up your imaginary ladder - if it means you feel more authentic then grand, but I encourage the guys to get on with their lives.

I don't have figures to hand so this is supposition, but I'd guess there are more jet transport aircraft operating in the uk each day than some 30 year old prop-taxi. Bit of a niche market in small heavily urbanised countries.

[Jet Fuel Addict]

CPL-IR-ME & MCC (fATPL...)
225 hrs.

Was looking for 6 weeks before I sold my soul to the devil and paid my type for the job. Don't regret it either.

[Flemish]

you are all together complaining that you still don't find a job after 6 poorly months????????? Gosh i had to look for about almost 3 years before i had my first break, without paying for my type and i'm a +30 old ab-initio. Before that i was doing flightseeing tours which was really fun.

It amazes me more and more that people want straight to their 737 or A320 job without doing any effort. Bad attitude. :=

[matt_hooks]

Flemish, why is it a bad attitude?

Why should people not go straight into jets?

Just because you had to do it "the hard way" doesn't mean that everyone should have to.

Some people are lucky, or work hard and get the right contacts. Some aren't so lucky. Why should the lucky ones feel guilty? Or indeed the unlucky ones feel bitter?

me fATPL ME/IR/MCC, 250 hours, finished MCC early November, had one interview and another one coming up shortly. Both regionals flying TP's.

Good luck to all those who are searching. :D

[dyrojo]

Hay guys, quick question.. how did you get all your qualifications? Was it through private training, or at a training school?
cheers

[AlphaMale]

Flemish, why is it a bad attitude?

Why should people not go straight into jets?

me fATPL ME/IR/MCC, 250 hours, finished MCC early November, had one interview and another one coming up shortly. Both regionals flying TP's.

Flemish isn't saying it's forbidden to send your CV off to a Jet Op. But if you go to OAT blow £80k and then another £20k on a SSTR ... does it really mean you're owed a job any more than myself who spent £40k on training and worked as a FI for a year?

The attitude is pretty childish.

And if id spent £80k on training id be aiming for the highest paying job id get rather than earning 400 a month instructing. Clearly you can afford to get a low paid job.

Nobody is forcing these people to take out big loans, if you have £1k a month to pay off for the next 6 years then of course you can't work for £20k pa but don't look down your nose at the people who are debt free and just want to work in aviation for the love of it.

Good luck with the TP job too - shows me there are good jobs out there.

[Iberplanes]

Hi there!!

PPL(A) 125+ hours, give up my ATPL (for now) :) and building a zodiac 601 XL airplane.

Bye

[dartagnan]

200h total, 1 cv sent the next day after receiving my license and now copi on the 777 for BA after 1 month only!!!

[the aviator1977]

For those that are low houred (i.e <400 hrs say) and went to a flying school that has links with possible commercial jobs (any type of job) then use them to help you get recommended. You've paid them enough money so use them.

If they can't help you or you went down the modular route and the usual application method isn't working then its because there are guys that are getting recommendations above you of have more flying experience than you.

Therefore you need to improve your cv by gaining more hours of flying experience.

Morally I don't agree with this but if I had the money I would pay for a type rating purley and simply because there are plenty of other pilots doing this getting one step ahead of you. If you can't afford to do a type rating having spent x thousands of pounds already then you really do need to increase your flying hours by one of many methods available to you in this country or indeed africa/europe.

Such as

Instructing (if you can afford the rating)
Aerial photography
Pilots assistant
Banner Towing
Pleasure Flights
Survey work.

etc etc.

You just have to look for these types of jobs to gain experiece and having done this type of job for a while you'll be surprised how quickly things will happen once you're in the industry. Before you know it you'll have the advantage over the low houred guys when it comes to applying for the bigger jobs such as TP operators or if you're lucky a big shiny jet!


You have to ask yourself the question:

Would I rather do any (I mean anything) flying job this year in 2008 as supposed to no/minimal flying while holding out for the national lottery win of a big shiny jet?

SO GO GET THAT SEP JOB NOW AND STOP WASTING TIME!

rgds

The Aviator1977

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Alpha male - the voice of reason

Guys ask yourself this question.

Why do most air taxi companies need 700hours before letting you loose in a Seneca, yet you are all looking for a 737 job at 235 hours.

Personally I would rather excel at a job instead of just being able to tell the girls in nightclubs that i'm an "Airline Pilot"

at 235 hours in a 737 you are as much use as tits on a bull, kilo for kilo the training captains would probably rather have the fuel. I know many captains that hate flying with cadets. Trust me they would be more impressed with a good hand flown approach in a chieftain than a perfect CAT III autoland that you just monitored

Do an apprenticeship, build some PIC time, learn about flying and then earn it instead of paying for it. The only reason for the 200hour CPL is I think Poland - they wanted it from the JAA and got it, previously you needed 700hours for a CPL hence the 700 hours requirement from the UK CAA - think about it.

Many AOC operators can have a dispensation for 400 hours if you have some multi time, RAvenair at Liverpool have 400 hour guys counting ducks in the Liverpool Estuary in a partenvia and others collecting cheques from the Isle of Man in an Aztec, they all have to spend time in ops handling aircraft and filing flight plans before they get anywhere near a twin.

I'd rather hire one of these guys than some Ace with 235 hours with some pseudo 737 simtime who got an average 98% pass in the subjects just like every other "graduate"

Oh and PS Ravenair is owned by a well regarded Ex 757 driver who knows the score.

Anybody out there qualified without a job should look inward, its never been so good for pilots in 15 years - when the music stops make sure you have a seat......any seat.

[Tommy' C]

Dartagan, brilliant....

[dartagnan]

in my dream of course!!!:p

[PorcoRosso]

72 cv's and applications i've sent in the last 12 months

So that's 6 per months ... Big deal ;)

On the same period, I wrote 450 CV & application letters .. that's a bit more than one per day .. not really time consuming.

I suggest you grab the last JP Airline or some Flight International listing all aircraft ops in the world .. You will probably find out there are more than 72 ;)

Sure, it's not easy for lowtimers, but still, those days are the best since years to find a pilot job ... Keep on writing letters and licking stamps !

[MIKECR]

If I wanted to move to the continent or the far corners of the world then your quite correct, I would need to be sending out more cv's. As it stands, I have no particular desire to move abroad and I have commitments that tie me to the UK. Little point in me sending 450 cv's then to the deapest darkers regions of the world! As a slight aside, I would rather send a lesser amount of cv's, with carefuly worded covering letters(tailored to each individual operator),than hundreds of 'I've got got a cpl, any jobs mate??' meaningless type letters. ;)

[excrab]

While GSPOT speaks some truth, I will never forget years ago flying with an F/O who was shortly to go through a command upgrade. As he was flying the sector I asked him how much fuel he would like, and he said that minimum plog fuel would be good as the weather at the destination was CAVOK. I then had to suggest to him that maybe he should also look at the TAF, which was becoming 400m in fog overcast below 100ft when we were due to be there, and possibly take a little more.

In his previous life prior to joining the airline he had flown single crew ops in a PA31 and and actually been a "training captain" on it - made me think a little.

I suspect that an F/O with 3000hrs all in airline flying would have made a better decision. In fact I would expect an F/O with 300hrs of airline flying would make a better decision - because they do every time I ask them.

This isn't saying that air taxi pilots are bad. Merely suggesting that being able to fly a good hand flown approach in a chieftan is going to impress everyone is a bit of an oversimplification. I used to be able to do that but it was a long time ago and I probably couldn't do it now - but I know plenty of pilots with 500hrs who can fly a good hand flown approach in a 737, and I find that far more impressive when i'm sitting next to them in it.

[Lafyar Cokov]

Frozen ATPL, ME-IR-SP, SEP, MCC 475 HRS Fixed Wing 3670 Hrs Rotary (Military)
12 MONTHS

[tom_ace]

just thought I would carry on the argument - if you get offered a job on something other than a big shiny jet for christs sake don't turn your nose up - becuase you will regret it!

[MIKECR]

There was never an argument in the first place. The thread went way off track all because somebody somewhere suggested that the original few posters were only interested in finding a jet job which clearly wasnt the case.:confused: Then everyone else jumped on the band wagon and whatever their motive, tried to add their tuppence worth. :ugh:There was never any inference whatsoever that people werent intersted in ANY job so why not get the thread back on the rails it was supposed to be on!

So here go's our 'imaginary' pilot - lets call him Dave(everone knows a Dave!), Dave has 250 hours, a frozen atpl and has been applying for jobs for 6 months. He's intersted in ANY kind of job!

Next poster please!!

[ju757]

MCC, Frozen ATPL, SEP MEP IR. 1month till succeed the job interview

[Anonymus6]

I thuoght I could post my road in this career.

Graduated from flight school 2005 with 300 hours total time.
Instructed for 12 months and build close to 1000 hours tt. Got a nother job flying cargo at night in Piper chieftan as captain. After a couple of months (8 months) working MY BUTT of for the company they bought a turbo prop and they typed me as a captain:ok:.

YES I APPLIED TO EVERY AIRBUS AND BOEING OPERATOR OUT THERE WHEN I WAS A LOW TIMER TO GET TO FLY A SHINY JET,,,,BUT NO LUCK!!!!

[babiu0107]

sorry to interrupt but have one question--would it be easier to get a job if you pay for TR+Line training(let's say 200hrs 737 or 320)????
(just want your opinion)

[inner]

Anonymus6: "YES I APPLIED TO EVERY AIRBUS AND BOEING OPERATOR OUT THERE WHEN I WAS A LOW TIMER TO GET TO FLY A SHINY JET,,,,BUT NO LUCK!!!! "

Don't bother, everyone did. Just try to be in the air and you will be fine!!

Life is full of surprises!!

good luck

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Excrab

Indeed, we all have experiences of budding Chuck Yeagers and on the opposite end of the scale we have all flown with some people who needed telling more than twice.

I was deliberately talking more generally so as to encompass more people. There seems to be many out of work fATPL's on here (as you would expect on this forum) who would appear to be without work, when really at the moment everybody should be ably employed.

If your training department is turning out competent FO's on 737's at 500 hours with 250hours jet time then you are truly blessed and your training department perhaps should (sincerely) be a template for us all.

Perhaps if all the budding 737 drivers on here considered that for the next 1000 hours (Again generalising - there are always exceptions) you will be taking more out of the equation than putting into it,then setting aside the boeing or bust aspirations, they may consider the less glamorous route a little more.

In my corner of the industry (Corporate) you will not be considered for a Jet F/O job with less than 1000hrs - ideally some multi, Ideally some PIC, Ideally some OPS experience. The simple fact is that most fresh FATPL's could probably not file a flight plan and these people feel qualified to undertake 737 type training :confused:

There will always be exceptions of course, and for those determined to do it then full marks for determination.

Sorry but its another £0.02 (Thats 4p now)

[Caudillo]

In my corner of the industry (Corporate) you will not be considered for a Jet F/O job with less than 1000hrs - ideally some multi, Ideally some PIC, Ideally some OPS experience. The simple fact is that most fresh FATPL's could probably not file a flight plan and these people feel qualified to undertake 737 type training

Not only do they feel qualified, they are qualified. You mention the filing of flight plans - looking at the background of your average fresh fatpl I wouldn't expect them to have much experience of it. Neither do we in the airlines. For that matter, neither do a great deal of corporate pilots.

This is all simply NIMBYism in another form.

[PorcoRosso]

sorry to interrupt but have one question--would it be easier to get a job if you pay for TR+Line training(let's say 200hrs 737 or 320)????

Why not buying the Airline ?

Seriously, think twice before paying for working (doesn't it sound silly ? )

We have example of people paying for all the kit and getting ....nope
On the other side, some found a job on Airliners with no experience and no TR at all .

[invisiblemoon]

Please stop this advertisement :rolleyes:

[Swanie]

fATPL, MECIR, NVFR 200TT 80PIC 20HN
Currently drilling holes to save $$ to be able to move north or east, subsequently haven't applied anywhere yet.

Worried about the pay up north-with the way rent is, I'd be paying to fly a 210 or similar, can't wait!!;)

Why shouldn't we think that we have a chance jumping straight into an airline when we meet their entry requirments?..:sad:
Sharp aviation
Qlink traineeship

[dartagnan]

over 2000h tt, a320 rated, 10 months looking.

NOTHING except some "we will keep you informed...","please,fill our applicatios form" and the infamous "thanks for your application"...

they want hours(min1500h tt), lot of hours, and hours on eavy jet(min500h)...

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Caudillo

Please explain how what I say could be construed as NIMBYism, I'm sorry I genuinely don't understand.

You dont have to go too far back to remember that the only people flying heavy jets at 200 odd hours were airline sponsored cadets from BA & Cathay and other sponsored, they all had chiseled jaws and were the rugby club captains and chief prefect at boarding school, mostly had parents who had senior positions within the companies.

WADR to these people they were subject to the same stringent aptitude tests as RAF officer training and had multiple interviews followed by psych tests, they completed their IR's and were in the simulator the following Monday morning. There were maybe 50-60 graduates per year, in some years if the airlines weren't doing quite so well they had to join the aircraft as cabin crew

It is only in the last 5 years or so in the 50-60 years of jet transport as we know it that we have the "200 Hour" CPL, it is a new concept, unproven.

The point that you make about being qualified to undertake heavy jet training is misguided and misunderstood, you are able and entitled to take/pay for a boeing bus rating but qualified - I dont think so.

You might now argue that why aren't 73's and 320's aren't falling out of the sky. Well training departments have adapted, in fairness aircraft have evolved whereby less emphasis is made on stick and rudder skills and more upon automatics and systems management.

Most training departments are in meltdown, TRE's Salaries have never been in as much demand or have been paid so much. Line trainers are not Line training anymore the salry uplift is not worth the hassle

You only have to look upon the last weeks events at LHR to see that really when all is well, these aircraft can be flown well with pilots of limited experience. It is when the **** hits the fan that the experience shows and saves the day (as at Heathrow).

My personal opinion is that the 200hour CPL is a backward step, the old 200 hr BCPL.....700 hr CPL.... 750 hr CPL/IR process was a little more organic and produced a more rounded flying individual with more situational awareness and basic flying skill through experience than the "product" we get now.

Can doesnt mean should, and able doesnt mean ready, is what I'm trying to say

Please don't flame me for having an opinion, you no doubt have yours and I respect that.

The RHS of that Kingair or Instructor rating is not a good investment in terms of money but for those freshly qualified with time on their hands I'm merely suggetsing dont be in such a rush and consider the alternatives.

Best of luck

[AlphaMale]

Can doesnt mean should, and able doesnt mean ready, is what I'm trying to say

Hear hear!

I was thinking the same thing when reading the paper about the FO who got the 777 on the ground. I asked myself "I wonder if the kids with 200hrs and a fATPL could have done the same?" I think the FO had 10 years of flying experience.