Quantas engineer Fake License !!

[Melax]

That's what happens when HR doesn't do it's job properly !!.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/qantas-engineer-faces-more-than-100-charges/2008/01/15/1200159455322.html

[oldpax]

Fake certificates are prevelant in a number of industries.Oil/Gas & constuction have had quite a few fake degrees which can be bought and have been used!

[Andu]

How fortuitous for Qantas' PR Dept that they will be able to spin the story to Joe Public that the maintenance problem at Bangkok was caused by one rogue fake engineer, and not a seriously flawed new corporate culture directed from the very top.

One that is becoming more and more obviously to those within the industry - and in the lower echelons of the company itself - the complete opposite of what the company once was. A hard-earned reputation Qantas still attempts to trade on looks more and more like being at risk of being lost in the most tragic circumstances if one day a crew - be it maintenance or technical - who still retain enough of the 'old Skippy' ethos isn't there to bail the company out of a future situation that would have been stopped three or four 'slices of cheese' earlier under the 'Old Qantas' formula.

(They probably caught the guy when he signed off one of the aircraft with "QUantas Engineer".:))

[Ozdork]

Again, there is no U in QANTAS

[NAS1801]

Ooooooh..... he maintained the aircraft with the cracked dripshield!!

Now you see what happens when we have people like him commiting fraud..... cracked dripshields go un-noticed!!

Nice one, journalists.

[10DowningSt]

There's an organisation called FASS www.fass.org.uk which was formed by a number of recruitment agencies in the UK and Ireland, in an attempt to raise the standards of recruitment and in particular vetting of qualifications.

It set up a central Register, and I was one of those who registered, but that's on ice. It seems that the response from the airline maintenance industry was encouragement from safety-minded people such as Quality Assurance, but they were invariably over-ruled by the bean-counters who simply go for the lowest price regardless of safety.

It seems also that the CAA while giving encouragement to FASS did little or nothing to push the MRO's into really demanding what FASS is offering.

EASA is thinking about the problem, according to FASS, but in a time frame of years.

Meanwhile, I and my highly qualified, experienced and motivated contractor colleagues find ourselves working alongside people with false documentation more often that you would want to know about.

[Dunnybudgee]

Years ago when I was an expat CP in South Asia, I found we had a couple of pilots from South America (hired before my time), with falsified hours on type and in one case a forged type proficiency check. My suspicions being raised by their lack of competency.

Additionally I had applications from other pilots from the same country, whose backgrounds I checked, who were found to have submitted false references and claims of 500 hours (how convenient) PiC time when they had no ATPL at the time of the logged flights...

At the same airline I discovered we had a "senior" LAME from another part of SA who claimed he had licences on a type but strangely very little knowledge of such and who had performed some very poor (read dangerous) work. His previous work experience showed no training on said type....

I had no choice but to report them to Exec Mgt and eventually the local CAA when the airline showed no interest in removing them from staff...
I left that employer ASAP!

Coming from Australasia I was in some degree of disbelief as I had never heard of anything so stupid. Not to mentional potential career suicide.

I know thats not in OZ but I learnt my lesson. ALWAYS check someones qualifications before you let them near an aeroplane! :eek:

[PAXboy]

Non pilot speaking
It does not matter whether this bloke went near VH-OJM (LHR~BKK), if he was working on a/c then QF mgmt are culpable. To my mind, this blows a gaping hole in any statement about "Our passenger's safety comes first"

[barit1]

Gann described this very situation in "Fate Is The Hunter" 45 years ago. His name was Dudley IIRC.

[Bus429]

About 20 years ago, while still involved in the vintage staff at Duxford and also earning most of my living contracting as an LAE at STN, I was contacted one evening by a local newspaper.

The reporter stated that he had heard that I knew a bloke - who also worked at STN, at least around the time if the incident - who had stripped a Catalina to bits at Duxford. Transpires this fellow had falsified his licence and had been certifying at STN for an MRO there. His disappeared. I remember headlines such as "xxx aircraft worldwide will have to be recalled for 'maintenance checks' after having had work incorrectly inspected" or similar.

Someone knew I worked at both Duxford and STN and assumed I knew him; I did not but I heard he was not bad in technical respects.

At least in the UK, prospective employers are encouraged to contact the Competent Authority that issued the licence prior to proceeding.

[angels]

I'm guilty of thread drift here, but what makes people do this sort of thing?

It reminds me of the case of the guy who turned up at the floods they had around Tewkesbury in the UK last summer. He said he was a senior fireman from the Merseyside fire brigade and spent days organising defences, rescues etc.

He wasn't. He was just some nutter with a nicked uniform.

Is it a power thing?

[chasbang]

HR organisations in the aviation industry should at least scrutinise and check on licences with relevant issuing authorities on potential applications for employment.Any large orgainisation having an overstaffed HR dept should ensure it has at least operational and technical vetting of applications before the interview process.
Many have have slipped through the net without this diligent oversight

[Short_Circuit]

Not for this bloke, it was the lure of extra money.
Some people will sell their soul and their workmates for it.

[bushy]

About 18 months ago I had a young man send me a CV which claimed to have qualifications he did not have.
He went off to UK shortly after that.

[Brian Abraham]

Gann described this very situation in "Fate Is The Hunter" 45 years ago. His name was Dudley IIRC

If I recall correctly (getting on in years and it was a long time ago) there was a PANAM 747 Captain who was found to never have held a licence. Anyone else remember the story?

[airmuster]

Brian,
Are you referring to the story they made into a film.... I think it was called "Catch me if you can".
Don't think he ever flew "up front" but use to tag along as standby crew, but his real ploy was forging Pam Am cheques. Heard he ended up actually working for the blokes that nabbed him.... the FBI

Great Film

With OZ security ASIC cards, I have been mistaken for Qantas crew.... same coloured card etc...... more than once.... scary.... that is, me being capable of getting up front........ I'd sh:mad:t myself.

[neville_nobody]

An ASIC card won't get you in the jump seat in Australia. We don't have any commuting agreements.

The USA has a commuting agreement between airlines enabling people to live away from their home base and fly in for free in the jumpseat on any airline if you are on your way to work. The guy in catch me if you can took advantage of this and flew all over the USA and cashed cheques around the country.

[pinklemonae]

I heard DJ may let you into the flight deck with an ASIC card, or it might have been if you are a relative of a member of staff?

[grouter]

To all, do you realise that this guy worked for Qantas as an unlicencenced engineer, presented company with fake certificates for exams needed to be passed to hold a licence (called basics in Oz), then sat on (and passed?) a company licence/type course? Apparently he then fronted for work wearing LAE/LAME insignia and started signing a/c out. No one checked if all relevant experience had been sent to regulator etc, etc.
Wasn't even getting paid at the higher wage rate and that was his undoing.

[Brian Abraham]

airmuster - Yes I know of the con man/movie but this was written up in the trade papers at the time (mid late 70's I'm guessing). Fed riding on the flight deck asked for his licence and was not able to produce and subsequently turned out he never had one - ever. In 42 years no one (Oz) every asked to see my licence and only twice did I ever have to produce a log book (CASA once, employer once). Had to quote a licence number a million times tho'. (Think of a number, double it and add six would seem to work :p)

[Sensible]

This thread brings back memories of a character named Neil Robertson. Does that name bring back fond memories to anyone?:p

[Melax]

Who was Neil Roberston ?

[SeldomFixit]

You crazy new guys :\

Ello Guv

[DutchRoll]

This is old news (late last year, actually).

Yep, he was unlicenced.

He was actually an aircraft engineer, however. Just not a licenced one (difference between a "LAME" and an "AME" in the Oz system) and therefore unable to "sign" for work. From what I've heard, he was actually reasonably competent, though I guess this is beside the point.

I believe that, with the engineers under pressure to get aeroplanes back on the line, he just started signing up work even though he wasn't supposed to. He got deeper and deeper into the whole thing and it got totally out of control. No-one bothered to check or ask about his licence quals or the fact that he'd never sat his exams!

[HotDog]

Melax, Neil Robertson impostor: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93800

[KaptinZZ]

airmuster, his name was Frank Abagnale played by Leonardo Di Caprio in the movie Catch Me if You Can. He didn't actually fly an aircraft and knew sfa about them, but was an accomplished con man.

He is now a respectable member of the community, whatever that is, and runs a security company in the USA. A friend is the CEO of an Australian security printing company that does printing work for him.

If you can believe the film, and that's probably unlikely when you consider other parts of the film, the FBI recruited him after doing some time, as their specialist fraud investigator.

[NAMPS]

Just like the fake BA038 passenger :}

[airmuster]

Brian & KaptinZZ

Thanks for replies. It was an enjoyable film........ bust have had been a headache for Pam am and the authorities as I presume the con did go on for a fair while.

I find that if you say you are a pilot people never seem to question you re licences, more re types you fly.

My wife and I were in the States doing the Oshkosh thing some time ago and went on for her to get a twin endorsement at some university airport around Kansas I think. Anyway, during the theory classes, I sat down the back just relaxing reading some book, and every now and then the instructor would ask if I agreed with whatever he was going on about. I use to just wave my hand or nod or mutter.............. it wasn't till after the lecture that my wife informed me that he had assumed that I was some airline captain...... I am a bit older than the other half. Bloody glad he didn't ask me to help solve some problem. We all had a good laugh when I informed him that I get dizzy over 500ft.

One thing I do remember though is that he barrell-rolled a Duchess with me in it..... something CASA would love seeing...... I was in the back seat, then next day found the prop blades rather loose on the hub.

Glad I'm still around to tell the tale.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Questions that should be asked of both CASA and Qantas are:

1] Why are the CASA issued licences no longer watermarked,as you are required to photo copy your licence when showing your manager/representative? It was good enough in the past,why not now?

2] Why did CASA not ask Qantas for an explanation,when the results of the type course exams that the imposter LAE passed were sent to CASA,and placed in his CASA file? All exams results,pass or fail are placed in the applicants CASA file. So why wasnt this picked up by CASA?

3] Why didnt the imposters' manager(or designate) take 5 minutes to review his eQ/HRI status in regards to making sure he had the required Airframe/Engine basics to be eligible to sit the course?

4] And how did none of the guys on his crew not know about his status of lack of Basic exam passes? Was this guy such a liar or a social outcast that no body was aware of what exams he had done and what he had left? I know that where ever I have worked,it has always been a topic of conversation as to what you had done,and what was left,so that you could borrow notes,etc.

Surely the LAEs on his crew should shoulder some of the moral blame for the damage to our professional reputation for letting this one slip through.

For as long as I can remember,it was a requirement that you had to have passed ALL Basic exams for the category that the applicant was applying for.

e.g. All airframe exams plus AA when sitting and applying for an airframe licence on type.

[SOPS]

Just to be picky...please note, there is no "U" in Qantas.:ugh:

[ray cosmic]

At my current company pilots are required to produce a license+medical at each sim check followed by them taking care of papers to the authorities.
Means there is no way you can go unnoticed with false papers.
False hour logging can of course be a problem, but that is to the hiring people to apply some common sense and experience.

[Melax]

Melax, Neil Robertson impostor: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93800

Hey Hotdog thanks for the info, Wow That's incredible what people do !!

[GlueBall]

It was the talk of the town back in the late 60s at the former Eastern Airlines [USA] where one B727 pilot apparently had "fallen through the cracks" with only a private pilot's certificate.

As to new pilots coming into the right seat of a big jet; the experience level becomes immediately apparent, no matter how many hours one claims to have actually flown . . . or logged on paper. Pilots' experience levels can usually be measured during initial sim sessions.

[empire4]

BUg a lugs;

Firstly, i worked with MR "no licence" for a few years while he was at QF. I had many conversations with him, one which he told me he was expelled from school for breaking into the computer mainframe. Believe it or not he actually got into the system at work, a few strange things happened on pc's. From what i gather he put false results into the system. Secondly, he came from kendell (Wagga) when ansett closed as a 4th year apprentice and did not talk to too many people. So, no one knew how many basics he had done. he told me he was doing elec basics and that was after the course. crap.
Thirdly, an instuctor at QF recently told me he failed 2 subjects and it was the training centre that picked up the fraud, as his basic results sheets did not have the picture in the back ground.
Regardless, there was alot of holes he slipped through and the manager should be sacked. QF is however a blameless business and you won't see any manager take any responsibility for anything that goes wrong. None of the guys on his crew are to blame, they are LAMES, not HR and not the manager!
It is not a requirement to have AA until after the course. he only had 3 basics anyhow.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=3849813)

[sam.lk7]

Haha

There is no "U" in Qantas,

oh well, just thought i'd post now so that can i get to 50posts

Hooray, 50posts!:D:D:D

[FAStoat]

I seem to remember it stands for "Queensland and Northern Territories Airline Systems".Anyway my point after reading this thread is,does anyone know of JAR 166 approved engineers.??Whilst flying in a "European" outfit,which had a lot a excellent Brit LAE Engineers,the Organisation replaced the line maintenance engineers,that we knew well,with a Car Mechanic Types who seemed to know very little about the aircraft.These were NOT LAE qualified,but had produced work sheets for 5 years on Similar or otherwise Commercial Aircraft,and by Grandfather rights were let loose on our Aircraft,as Approved.They got rid of a lot of the Brit LAEs,and placed one proper LAE looking after up to 4 Aircraft on the Line,with these Jar166 guys doing the work.It caused several problems,especially of an Hydraulic nature,since they were unaware of sequencing valves in the systems,and we had Aircraft U/S with airlocks,taking several hours delay to fix.The Licenced guys ended up doing paperwork in the office,and did not have the time to sort out each and every little problem,that was thrown up by LMC.Does anyone else know of similar,or even if JAR 166 Approvals are now the norm in the rest of Europe???????They may not be fake,BUT it leaves a lot to be desired????????????????????

[camlobe]

Was told a couple of times over the last three years about a guy who came out of the RAF with lots of jet time logged. Got himself a job with one of the minors (Mytravel or similar). Did good as well, but didn't know when to shut up. Always telling anyone who would listen about his exploits of daring-do (and he wasn't even a Harrier mate).

When boarding during a crew handover, his Captain mentioned he must know the offgoing Captain as he used to be on the same squadron. Offgoing captain did not know this guy.

Questions led to the truth behind it all. Turns out this walt was ex RAF Air Traffic Control with a PPL. Because he knew when each jet took off and landed, he entered the times in his logbook. Hey, presto, 'I've got XXXX hours fast-jet. Give me a job'.

Told to me independently by a couple of guys who used to work for the same company, both stories identical.


I know a guy now flying in a senior position in the UK with one of the minors. Over ten years ago, he sharp-penned a zero behind his 50 hrs multi to get his entry with the company.

First guy for the glamour and image. Second guy for the money. It happens for different reasons.

camlobe

[K.Walker]

First Post guys... So I hope you like this (true) story
Never thought I would be able to give some input to this forum (just SLF:D)

About 15 years ago I was working for a Toyota Dealership in the South (UK)
We had this guy come in a couple of times, talking sports cars etc and wearing a Captains uniform, we got quite friendly with him and starting talking "Shop"
My colleague was a lapsed PPL and I was a keen wanabe so we knew a bit!!
One day the evening discussion got very technical and I saw this guys eyes glaze over, it hit me like a bolt that this "Captain" knew SFA.
He knew that I knew and made his exit.
My colleague and I looked at each other, burst into laughter and made the comment "There is no f:mad: way on earth that guy can fly"

A couple of weeks went by and I had to visit a local large blue chip company and demo a car for the MD.
Guess who was in "uniform" manning the reception??????????????
I just did not know what to say... Weird mixed up people wearing Pilots uniform and making out they were a senior Captain was way out of my league (and understanding)

[Airbubba]

Phony licenses are pretty rare in the U.S. these days after the increased vetting that occurs due to TSA and FAA requirements.

I have an acquaintance in the expat world who pencil whipped a P1 type rating and a phony letter from a middle east airline to get hired as an A-300 captain at Korean a decade ago. He was a KE 744 captain last time I checked.

I had a friend call me about an Ozmate with a questionable FAA license, I put him in touch with the folks in Oklahoma City, the license was indeed fraudulent. This guy was looking for contract work in Africa.

[er340790]

Any word on just how long Mr. McCormack had been pulling this particular stunt????

[empire4]

he did his course in '05 and started signing 6 months after i think. Maybe a year and a half

[Roy Bouchier]

I actually flew with someone who had served under him. Said he was an unusually competent skipper! Apparently it only showed up at a ramp check when the inspector noticed that the typing on the certificate was hardly standard issue.
As for the level of experience, I once did a check ride with a new FO. On questioning his failure to perform he explained that it was because all his hours had been in the left seat. He didn't get the job.

[Melax]

Dot Office office of inspector general interesting link, note the action on 06-07-2001 "FAA impostor"
Maybe the next FAA guy conducting the ramp check is an Impostor ? (Just kidding)

http://www.oig.dot.gov/Room?subject=11

[FLYKER]

Grouter, I am not associated with QF nor have I ever been, but I have been reading all the threads on this subject with some interest and you appear to be one of the few who have read it right. We should agree then that there is a systemic failure in the QF L.A.M.E./Company Approval Tracking System (assuming they have one, it is mandatory). Lets hope they are addressing the problem through their Safety Management Sytems because there could be not just one missing slice of the cheese but also a very large hole in the remainder.
I happen to know that the regulator asertion "it is a one off" is not strictly true, it is out there in all professions, sometime a little more subtle and therefore very hard to pin down by a professional investigator let alone busy company managers. Fortunately many are picked by peers when a lack of competance is noted but in this case that person may well have been quite competent and continued unnoticed for years.
cheers
Flyker

[dieseldo]

This has also been running on the engineering forum.There was a recent case in the UK with a guy claiming to hold a licence certifying for 2 major operators.Turns out that he did have a licence a ppl!!!!!Appears that the UK caa (and EASA?) now issue one number per person and if you were to hold a PPL and a maintenance licence the only difference is suffix/prefix letters, the number would be the same.Apparently when found out he was quietly required to leave.Probably working somewhere else now.

[Electrican]

I know someone who forged an electrical license in Western Australia to obtain employment on a mine site. He did this just for the money. Wasnt happy working ligitamitely fo r $45K had to lie to get a job paying $100K+.

After his lie became known to the company, they have kept him employed with the company despite putting the lives of many at risk of electricution etc.

In this economic crisis, when employees are being made redundant in the mining industry in Western Australia, this employer keeps a worker employed despite forging his qualifications with the electrical lisencing board in WA.

You have to wonder what other lies they have spun to get what they want in life.. They seriously need medical attention...