18 years old, off to university this year and wants to be a airline pilot

[rleungz]

Hello,

My name is Ric and this website is probably the most useful I've come across, so thankyou for your information/opinions :)

Anyway, my question is, what is the best move for me for the near future?

My story is I'm going to university this year to study a 3 year degree in Computing and Management Studies at Newcastle University.
The likely fact is that I'll probably be a lot of debt and have to get a job to pay it off and paying for flight training isn't an easy option to take.

I've short listed acouple of routes I can take:
1. Apply for the RAF (which I am currently doing for a pilots bursary)
2. After university get a job save up for acouple of years and join OAT/CTC
3. After university get a job and do it the modular route (f)ATPL

I guess it is just the money factor. I've read round the forum that training could range from a little as 30k to 100k and having student debt on top means more money to pay off.

Anyway, sorry to rant on :ugh:

Thanks
Ric

[Leezyjet]

There is also option 4.

Don't go to university and waste your time/money on getting a degree that you don't actually need anyway to become an airline pilot and just go straight into training then you will get a flying job sooner and be earning money to pay off the reduced debt of training without the student debt on top. You will also be on the seniority list earlier too.

There are an awful lot of airline pilots out there who didn't go, and they are donig just fine without a degree, although it is something to fall back on incase things don't go to plan.

Just playing devils advocate here, not saying you shouldn't go to uni, but it's another option that is open to you.

:ok:

[charliegolf]

Ric

The educator in me says, "Get a degree". However, you could skip uni and get a quarter of your flying training done on the debt you would have had in the 3 years of studying.

There again, the student loan is the cheapest debt you're ever likely to get, and maybe you can't get the 15-20k upfront, so need traditional, expensive loans.

You'll need a good wage to save for the mod route, so perhaps we're back to the degree to maximise earnings. You could teach- 20k start, and 12 weeks to train in as you go along.

Don't go military unless it's your life's ambition. It won't work. Good luck.

CG

Leezy beat me to it, in part

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Option 5

Do the flight training, get a job and once settled down get a degree with the Open University (http://www.open.ac.uk/). All bases covered!

Or else the foundation degrees that cover the ATPL from London Metropolitan University. (http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/ug-prospectus/courses-07-08/aviation-management-and-operations.cfm)

[mr.tos]

I say continue your degree in computing, while starting your flight training when you have your days off. It is true you don't need a degree to become an airline pilot but I think it can give you that edge in a very competitive field.

I will give you a classic example, say one day your flying your high performance jet and the air hostess brings you lunch. As she turns to give you your lunch she accidentally pokes you in the eye with the lunch tray, partially impairing your vision. You loose your medical as a result and can no longer fly. If you have your degree in computing you can walk into a relatively high paid profession, but if you don't your stuck at mcdonald's for the rest of your life.:{ You decide...

[AlphaMale]

I was in your position (like many others I'm sure).

I didn't think the airlines would be all that keen to take on a 21 year old boy with no life experience and only A levels. I say 21 as that is the minimum age to sit the ATPL exams.

You're 18 when you finish school (A levels) so you need to find something to do for 3 years. I did a degree that put me in debt but gave me great life experience, met some great friends and above all puts a couple of letters behind me name.

Having a BSc will/should get you a higher earning job, I also did IT (Multimedia Tech & IT studies) and I found my job nearly 2 years ago. I saved enough to do my training in no time but fell into the rat race of getting my own place. So I've had to start saving from scratch again.

I'll be going modular with BFC in Bristol (or that is the plan after many years of research) and Ideally I'd like to get my CPL debt free and then a small loan to pay the rest (Multi-IR & MCC).

People will tell you having the degree is pointless and just added debt, but if you take out the maximum student loan and not spend it on drink and socialising it'll come in pretty handy wen flight training begins at 21/22.

So the choice is 21 no degree and a fATPL or 22 with a BSc and a fATPL and a back up career should it go pear shaped ;)

Don't bother with the RAF if you're not 110% committed, they'll figure you out in no time and you'll waste your time and theirs. As for Integrated v Modular ... that's a personal choice.

Good luck.

[randomair]

There is no minimum age to sit your atpl, well there is LEGALLY, and that is 17.
You can demonstrate the same amount of determination/ maturity if your 17 or your 30...it makes no odds, it just depends on how much of a gambler/determined you are.

If you are 100% sure your want to be a pilot, then start it as soon as you can, because now is the time where jobs are rife.

There are too many people that delay starting their training and find themselves 3 to 4 years behind the drag curve....and that could be the difference of £200000 if you find yourself with the right employer.

I'm not going to blabber on about the choices i've made, but suffice to say, I started young and have no regrets. Its all about maximising your investment. SO
why spend money on a degree that your not going to follow up?

Bite the bullet, follow your dream and the sooner you start, the sooner your debt will be paid off!

good luck.

randomair

[AlphaMale]

There is no minimum age to sit your atpl, well there is LEGALLY, and that is 17.

I stand corrected. For some reason I read 21 somewhere? ... maybe it's to be issued with a full ATPL :bored:
(Says here too http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/helpwithyourcareer/jobprofiles/profiles/profile495/ (http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/helpwithyourcareer/jobprofiles/profiles/profile495/) ... not that I'd take any notice of it)

Degree v No Degree debate is almost as bad as Modular v Integrated.

It's a personal choice, look around at how many people with fATPL are waiting for their first jobs, it wont take long to notice a few bitter people on here with no jobs after blowing £50k+ on training.

I have my safety net, a fairly well paid job, I am a much more mature person than I was at 18, My revision technique is better after 4 years at Uni and now I am hoping to do my training pretty much debt free.

If I had the chance to go through life again I'd have joined the Police Force after my A levels and done as much over-time as possible, done my PPL/Night/IMC studied for my ATPL's then taken 12 months off to concentrate on my flying career.

On the other hand I did enjoy Uni.

[4KBeta]

I always think Uni would be a good choice for all, life experiences, and a degree to come out with. Obviously these things don't come free and you are right in assuming this will cost you £12,000 + in debt.

Personally I finished University in June and now I am working for a very large company, which has good links to aerospace industry. And yes I also enjoyed uni a lot!

When it comes down to it, you will have to take a chance at some point. You can either go to uni and look towards flying schools after...obviously degree there as a backup if all doesn't go as planned vs money you have spent to get that bit of paper.

Next you could jump right in, go sign up at OAT and take out a loan for a big portion of that. Were is the rest of the money coming from? Would your parents be happy you possibly putting your name on that amount of money?

For me, I am currently working and still looking to persue a flying career but also have my own questions to answer first :ugh:

Choice is yours, good luck!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Uni will cost you at least £15k. That's the PPL and hour building and the ATPL exams covered. Get a job and live at home and save like a lunatic. Lets say you get a job on £15k a year working in a local electronics factory on a production line (you do some overtime and double shifts). You should be able to save £8k a year leaving you with £24k in the bank plus compound interest of £2k = £26k in cash and NO student loans or overdrafts.

During your employment it would be perfectly possible to add an NVQ3 to your CV and if the employer offers day release ONC courses then that is doable as well.

Nothing stopping you having a Sunday job as well or working in a local pub on Saturday night.

To keep yourself sane and focussed on a flying career you can get hold of a set of ATPL study notes and spend a few hours a week reading them.

At the grand old age of 21 you would have a clear training plan worked out, be fully up to speed on the PPL theory and havea grasp of the ATPL course. You would have at least £26k in your pocket and could get a loan fairly easily (three years continuous employment and fully solvent) for a further £12k.

£38k is then a reasonable figure to do the Modular course.

SOooooooo much better than a piece of paper with a degree written on it and no relevant experience and a big debt to the student loan company (I did a degree myself and have nothing against it per se).

And forget this nonsense about something to fall back on.

The majority of people not the top ten percent now have do a degree so by itself it doesn't make you special. Given that you got the degree then went and did something completely different AND your degree is now 6 years old and covered in dust AND things have moved on quite a bit then your computer degree is going to get you no where as a fall back.

WWW

[knd]

You need a degree in U.S. to get a good job with a major but not elsewhere?Does not sound right to me,I`ve been told on both forums you need a degree to fly everything but RJ.

[Bearing 123]

Once again lots of folk with an opinion trying to totally confuse a newbie to the industry.
At the moment, he stands as good a chance of getting a job at 21 with low hours without a degree then he does a 25 with one. Everyone who has been through the mill and who is now sitting at the pointy end will tell you that its all about the right place at the right time, or knowing somebody.
Yes it is possible to send off a CV and get lucky but unless you have a degree that is directly related to the aviation industry, all of the recruiters I know, really don't give a toss. It's whether a person holds the relevant licence, has the relevant experience required for the job, and that could be 200 hrs or 2000 hrs dependant on requirements. There are no hard and fast rules.

[AlphaMale]

Or you could read through this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102046) and decide.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I don't know any recruiters who are interested in an aviation related degree.

AeroEng is of no use when deciding to de-ice a wing rather than design it.

There isn't a degree out there that is of any damn use to being an airline pilot. The reason is because the job is such a multi disciplinary one. A airline pilots don't need to know a lot about physics, weather, aerodynamics, engineering, maths, language, geography, psychology or social affairs - but he needs to know a little bit of each to be good at his job.

Do be honest a good solid set of A-levels proves you can hit the books and pass exams. That's relevant to hiring new pilots. A degree much less so.

Given the 3 years and X thousands of cost the rewards for doing one are slim in the UK.

WWW

[Bearing 123]

I whole heartedly agree with WWW

We as professional pilots need to know a little about about an awful lot of things.
I do know one recruiter who would on occasion sit up and take notice of an airline management degree, but seriously folks nothing else

:ok:

[AlphaMale]

Ric, WWW knows more about the business than most, I only wish I found this forum when I was 18. Maybe I'd have worked in a factory Mon-Fri and Tesco on the weekend to fund my training.

I think I'd be right in saying one of the pilots role is to assess a situation and plan accordingly to overcome the problem. You need to work this out on yourself there is plenty on the subject on this forum so do your research.

I'm on the fence with it all. I have a good job in IT due to a degree and a great future in IT, I've picked up skills along the way and have a wide range if computing skills from programming / web design / desktop support etc I have a friend who told me of a contracting job paying £191 a day for a company who also own an flag carrying airline.

Now that's great - but I'd rather be a flying instructor. :ugh:... Better yet in a Jet.

[4KBeta]

It is all a matter of opinions....most are correct, a degree might not help you at all but nobody really knows for sure. That's the thing to remember when reading these forums, all are a matter of opinions

Have a think and do a lot of research....you will come to your own conclusions like many have.

[binko]

your in exactly the same situation as me

[pt_flyer]

I'm also in the same situation.

Think if another 9/11 happens. What then? The pilots who are laid off need to find a job to support themselves. If you have a degree that was taken 20 years ago it will always get you a better job then plain A-levels. It doesn't matter how long ago it was. Do you not go to Hospital and see 50 year old doctors practicing medicine?
WWW can't see 40+ doctors because their degree is covered in dust???:=
Everyone knows having a degree does no harm. I bet the life experience you gain from the 3 years at uni is a lot better than the experience you get working at Tesco. Any degree helps a pilot. Just like you said, pilots need to know a little bit of everything.
Just saying my opinion.

:ok:

[rleungz]

Wow! I'm actually amazed at the rate of people who have posted their opinion and views. Thanks everyone :)

The university point I made seems to be the topic of the thread.
To tell you the truth, I actually really want to go university; Newcastle to be more to the point, heard its a brillant place and I just want to go for a life and the letters at the end.

Though, I have read somewhere that University Air Squadron offers a PPL or hours towards it. So if I can pass the selection that be brillant???

After University, I was thinking to go into Management or IT Consultancy and fund my modular training at the sametime.

Is it possible to have a full time career in Consultancy or IT and train to be an airline pilot the modular way?

And what would be the time frame at 21 years, before I get my (f)ATPL and a Type Rating on say a A320?

Ric

[Exhibitz]

I think the main question that needs to be asked, is how badly do you want to be a pilot? If you know that nothing else is for you, then go for it now. Like people have already said, if you go to uni and then study in your spare time as you gradually get money together you could not be getting your license until your 25/26, then you have to get a job with an airline.

This could perhaps be another few years, by which time you've already "wasted" dare I say 8 years of your life doing something you don't really want to do! There's always going to be risks in whatever you do, life would be boring taking the safe route all the time!

Good luck in your future!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Think if another 9/11 happens. What then? The pilots who are laid off need to find a job to support themselves.

Yep, easier and less painful if you are 25 than if you are 30 - so train now and don't waster 5 years gaining a certificate for the downstairs toilet.

If you have a degree that was taken 20 years ago it will always get you a better job then plain A-levels. It doesn't matter how long ago it was.

You hold a basuic degree in computer science taken 6 years ago - you really think that's going to wow the potential employers?

Do you not go to Hospital and see 50 year old doctors practicing medicine?
WWW can't see 40+ doctors because their degree is covered in dust???
Everyone knows having a degree does no harm.

Umm, a medical degree takes 8 years and I don't think is really relevant to this.

I bet the life experience you gain from the 3 years at uni is a lot better than the experience you get working at Tesco. Any degree helps a pilot. Just like you said, pilots need to know a little bit of everything.
Just saying my opinion.

I bet the life experience you gain as an undergraduate DOESN'T give you half as good or relevant life experience as working full time in Tesco stacking shelves, then maning checkout, then becoming checkout supervisor then getting selected for deputy shift manager.. Hell of a lot more to talk about at interview than wittering on about getting your dissertation in on time and being Captain of the Geology Dept drinking squad.

My advice stands. Uni is a waste of time (3 years) and money (£15k) if you have no intention of using the piece of paper at the end of it.

I think at least half the people at University in the UK should not be there.

WWW

[Whirlygig]

WWW, did you go to university? :hmm: I'm just detecting a little axe-grinding there!!

BTW, a medical degree takes 5 years; two years less than a veterinary degree!

Cheers

Whirls

[pt_flyer]

There is no 100 percent safe route. So when you get a degree don't think your absolutely safe. Of course anything is safer than the aviation industry. Like one said, the future of aviation is the next 30 seconds. No one can predict what is going to happen.

Let's say you do 'waste' the 8 years of your life. You get a job for an airline. A few years later a whole bunch of pilots including yourself get laid off. You will get a job with a good salary and continue with the plans you had for your family. Your colleagues that did not 'waste' years of their life have to go job hunting. When they do get a job they realize that their plans for their family have to be changed because of the loss of benefits and salary. Forget that new house, new car, good life you had when you were a pilot it's all over if you 'wasted' your time.

So now I ask you, do you think that was a 'waste' of time???:=
Or was it logical thinking and not listening to the biased FTOs?

:ok:

[Exhibitz]

This whole arguement is just going round and round in circles... Most people are biased, based on their own experiences.

Pt - you could also live your life as a pilot for the rest of your career only wishing you didn't waste your first 10 years in yet further education which is now somewhat useless.

Fact is whatever you go into there's risks, any career could end in tears. Let's say another incident is to occur and the industry plummits. Surely the additional time you spent flying was worth it? afterall it's what you wanted to do all your life, and you enjoyed every minute of it.

Yes, I am biased towards WWW's point of view. I spent months deciding what to do with my future, and I came to the conclusion that I want to spend my life in aviation not some desk job staring at a screen 9-5, 5 days a week. Why study for a job you don't even want to do?

[pt_flyer]

Exhibitz I do agree with you in one point. I also do not want to spend the rest of my life sitting in front of a computer from 9-5.
Everyone here loves to fly, some of us want to reach in different ways. This is very similar to the modular-integrated discussion which never stops. Only Ric can actually know what he wants. If he wants to skip the degree great for him, it's his choice. At the end of the road we will all end up flying.

Exhibitz - if I was you in the final phase of an entry to a sponsored program I would also not do the degree. I have not applied to CTC because I am afraid they will reject me before I have my degree and never get a chance to show my abilities again. After having my degree I think I will have a larger possibility to get accepted into CTC, and I know if I am rejected I had the best education possible.

[Whirlygig]

Why study for a job you don't even want to do?
Maximum income for minimum effort!!! Why else do you think people go for finance qualifications? The fun of it?

Fact is whatever you go into there's risks, any career could end in tears.

Quite! Sez she, embarking on her THIRD career!!

However, I started work as a nuclear physicist (my degree) and later became a Chartered Accountant and now working for a commercial helicopter qualification.

If I'd had the foresight to know what I REALLY wanted to do at 18, I'd have joined the RAF instead of doing a degree in Theoretical Physics! But I didn't and I thank myself and my parents that I got a degree which did, in effect, open the doors for the second qualification which also, through income, opened the door to the third!

However, it IS a matter of individual choice and we can all pontificate to our heart's content but, ultimately, it has to be the OP's decision which I hope to Dear Lawd he doesn't make just based on some of the drivel written on here but on what he feels is right otherwise, if our hero thinks in the future that the decision is wrong, he will blame others resulting in a self-destructive emotion.

If one makes a decision which one believes to be the best at the time with one's own convictions, then any regrets are usually short-lived.

Cheers

Whirls

[babiu0107]

why don't you do both at the same time??? I'm doing modular flight training in local FTO and college -Aircraft Maintenance-(bachelor prog-3y). Afther I get CPL IR ME MCC(for a year) I'll start sending job application.
--can someone please explain me education system in U.K.
is there something like tehnical high schools(Aviation and Tehnical, Ele., Medical...) or just normal high school like every other???

[321abc]

There are several courses that integrate a degree alongside commercial pilot training, myself being most familiar with the BCUC and Cabair course.

This allows you to study for a BA(Hons) Degree in Air Transport, while in the first year completing your PPL, and in the second and third years completing all training and exams for your ATPL and then CPL, i believe that there is another thread in this section discussing this course. :ok:

[tupues]

A degree as a backup is only useful if you fail/lose medical close to finishing. A 15 year old degree in computers is going to do nothing for you. 15 years of work in the comp industry using that degree yes. The plain un-used degree no.

[Joffyh]

I was in the same position as you last year. I decided to go to University and study Business and Management for 4 years, I thought it would be a good "general" degree to have that would help me if things went wrong with my flying career e.g. losing my medical.

I actually left Uni. at the end of my first term because I couldn't understand why I was there and the prospect of spending close to £30,000 (much more realistic figure) on a degree which I didn't even want to use seemed pointless. Every lecture seemed a waste of my time and I didn't enjoy any of the subjects, it was irrelevant to what I want to do with my life.

My parents paid for me to take my Class One Medical before I left because they didn't want to see me leaving uni. and then fail to get one. I'm currently applying for integrated courses and although it's the more expensive route, by not going to uni. I'll be reducing my debt by £30,000. With regards to working before training, I would rather take out a large loan and then pay it off by actually having a job as a pilot rather than working in Tesco's and stacking shelves for 4 years before hand.

Doing a degree is a good option to fall back on but you can take a degree when ever you like, on my course there were around 5 mature students. If I were to lose my medical at say 30 I would rather have missed uni. and have been flying for 10 years instead of having gone to uni., then worked and then have only been flying for 3 years. Loss of medical insurance after 10 years should more than cover the costs of re-training or taking a uni. degree. Also as it has already been stated there are several options available where you can take a degree course along side your pilots training, for example at Oxford part of the course is a foundation degree in Air Transport Management.

Uni. was great fun and it was difficult to leave Birmingham and the people behind but I knew that I was making the right decision. Before I went to uni. I was having doubts whether it was the right decision, my parents knew I wanted to do my training but said I should try uni. and see what I thought of the degree. Having done that they accepted my decision to leave and have said they'll support me in my training.

It sounds cheesy but if you want to be a pilot then you just need to go for it.

[4KBeta]

Doing Business Management Degree, I don't blame you for leaving.

Though I am shocked on the figure of £30K of debt, not exactly sure were you got that from.

4 x £3,000 - £12,000 (Tuition)

Then your telling me your gonna spend £18,000 on accommodation for 4 years? The cost of living at uni isn't that much even if you went out every night.

Anyhow back on topic, as I said....do research, go to unis, go to FTO's decide what is best for you and work hard, sure you will end up finding your way.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Whirlygig - no axe to grind here. I did a joint honours degree at a red brick University in England and went on to use that degree in employment for several years post graduation so it paid for itself. Not to mention the three years of parties, UAS flying, girls, booze, crashing cars, stealing sheep... all the usual stuff.

But £12k in tuition fees, £9k in living costs and three years of your 77 on this planet is a Very Poor choice to attain something you might only use as a back up plan...

WWW

[AlphaMale]

Though I am shocked on the figure of £30K of debt, not exactly sure were you got that from.

Me neither.

3 x tuition fees = £9,000
10 x £200 pm accomodation = £2,000pa or £6,000 for Total
Food/Bills = ?
Student life = ?

Total of £20k would be more like it. And that's if you live away, live at home and you'll have a degree for under £10k. :cool:

[greekboy]

whirlygig

a medical degree takes 6 years plus 1 year of internship(in s.africa anyway). not 5 years

gb

[Bearing 123]

For all those who say they don'y want to sit staring at a computer screen all day.................... What do you think your life as a professional pilot will be? Exactly that! And you don't get to flirt with the girls in the office:hmm:
Although the view out of my window is a hell of a lot better:ok:

[pt_flyer]

GB - We're talking about the UK. In europe a medical degree always takes 5 years (excluding internship). But who would want to be a doctor before becoming a pilot. That would be stupid, you're just wasting 5 years. A degree only takes 3 years. I agree using 3 years of your life for a degree, but not 5!!!

[David Horn]

Hi,

My advice would be to go to university. You can't get the same experience through the Open University, and besides, if you went to uni for the sole purpose of getting a degree it would be pretty boring.

I studied Physics at Leeds, which besides being a subject that's already interesting to me is a safety net in case the whole flying thing doesn't work out for one reason or another. I wouldn't want to work in aviation if I wasn't able to fly. ;-)

On top of that, you will have to learn to manage your own affairs, resolve disputes, work with people you can't stand, and expand your horizons in a way you can't really do anywhere else. I'm acutely aware that I need to find a job at the end of the course, and so many people seem to be under the belief that the banner of their training establishment will let them sail straight into the right hand seat, despite what the more knowledgeable people here keep pointing out. If my uni experience helps in the slightest, it'll be worth it.

Pragmatically, student debt is neither here nor there in the big scheme of things, and if you change your mind after six months and drop out, it's probably a damn sight cheaper than pulling out of an integrated course and then going to uni!!

[v6g]

rleungz - at your age do you really believe that there are sufficient supplies of cheap oil for an aviation career to last 40 years? There simply isn't.

With the fantastic expense of flight training it will be many, many years before your investment begins to pays off and aviation is entirely dependent on cheap oil.

Go get a degree as a backup - you'll need it. You won't have the opportunity to do so later on - family & other financial commitments will get in the way. And make sure it's a useful degree like engineering, business, medicine, law or computing (as you say). And avoid any aviation-related degree - that will be a waste of time in your pilot goals and will put all your eggs in one basket.

Like financial advise, career diversification is the key to reducing risk.

[rleungz]

I hope I havnt p***ed off the world of PPRUNE over my question.

Well, for me not go to university would be an option I'll probably wo't take due to the fact its one of my goals to go to University and get a degree in the end.

I'm not going to University just because I want to go into a job in ICT at the end. I want to go because the subject of Computing and Management is something I'm really interested in and University Life is something I've been wanting to do since I was in Primary School (I also wanted to be fireman Sam too). So University is defo for me:)

On the other hand, I want to be a airline pilot and since 9/11 it has been harder to actually get training. I've had a long nice chat with my parents and I'd told them what I thought and they didn't like the option of me not going to University. They said get your degree first and work for acouple of years because the market of ICT is growing and be a good investment. Your degree will probably land you in a high paid job and you can take flying lessons along side your career at the weekends or days off and when it comes down to the big boys, ATPL and Type Rating you can leave your job and work on them.

I personally I need to concentrate on getting my degree and if I can get my Scholarship that be brillant.

My future action plan (18 year old making an action plan WHAT!!!)

Finish College
Go to University
Finish University
Get a Job

PPL (while still in job)
CPL (while still in job)

(F)ATPL (hard studying-jobless)
Type Rating (hard studying-jobless)

Search for an airline job age 23/24/25/27/28/29/30?

If anyone tell me how good or bad my basic plan is?

Ric

[Joffyh]

I know it's slightly off topic...with regards to the cost of a degree:
Tuition fees: 3070x4= £12,280
1st year accommodation: £3800 (£97 a week self catering)
2nd-4th year accommodation (at £70 a week): £10,000 give or take
Total: £26,080

Then £25 a week for food, socialising etc. Roughly £30k. Yes you could do it much cheaper if you live at home but there goes the whole "learn life skills"

I'm not saying that Uni. isn't worth it, it's just down to personal choice, you just really need to make sure it's definitely the route you want to go down. However with regards to your current plan you can't do your CPL without CPL theory, are you saying you'd get your full CPL (including the theory) followed by ATPL theory???

[321abc]

tupuesA degree as a backup is only useful if you fail/lose medical close to finishing. A 15 year old degree in computers is going to do nothing for you. 15 years of work in the comp industry using that degree yes. The plain un-used degree no



I dont think so at all.

With the amount of new pilots training, as much talked about throughout the forum, a degree is going to be a massive help when it comes to the airlines selecting potential pilots.

The majority of the pilots applying will have around about the same low amount of hours - a degree, in any area, but especially in the Air Transport industry field, will give those with the degree a huge advantage other the other applicants. Why would they select the other applicant if both have around about the same amount of experience.

Yes it may be expensive to fund university, but surely its worth it, for the knowledge, and the fact you will have a degree in your list of qualifications.

[charliegolf]

A 15 year old degree in computers is going to do nothing for you

But Whirly's degree in Physics, on the other hand, virtually guarantees her a good income to 65 the way the power debate is going; as well as a take your pick in education. The latter being free training (1 year) and £30 after 5 years. Oh, and 190 days work per year- plenty of time off for flying.

CG

Ric, you're going to work 'til you die son. Go to uni and have fun. They can never take the 3 years back!

[Exhibitz]

Finish College
Go to University
Finish University
Get a Job

PPL (while still in job)
CPL (while still in job)

(F)ATPL (hard studying-jobless)
Type Rating (hard studying-jobless)

Search for an airline job age 23/24/25/27/28/29/30?


Erm, your going to drop dead while working at this rate. It's easy to sit back and say yes, ill do this then and then do this, but seriously that's an awful lot of studying even if you do take a "simple" degree.

Realistically if you go through uni got a huge loan to pay back, manage to secure a job (degrees are beginning to mean less and less nowadays, as almost everyone has one, so it's not as simple as just walking into a well payed job) are you really going to give it all up so soon?

If you are lucky enough to land yourself in a job, you would be around 25/26ish before you could even begin to look at studying to become a pilot (PPL or CPL), and I have a feeling you would think "is this really finicially viable?", "have I spent 3-4 years studying for something which i'm just about to quit?".

So - you would perhaps put it off for a further 5 years until you have built up enough money. By which time you may have various other commitments that aren't just taking up money, but time. You only live once, take it one step at a time and don't look back. The safe route isn't always the best route!

I personally suggest you take a gap year, apply to various schemes, see how you get on, if you get declined or decide you don't think you're quite ready then sure, go to uni. If however you get through the selection process and can't wait to get up in the air, go for it!
Good Luck Sire.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Have any of you actually looked through the job adverts for people with Physics PhD's? You'd be lucky to find one over 30k which a second year easyJet FO would earn even if he only had 5 GCSE's.

You all have to learn that being a pilot requires but three things:

A licence.

A type rating.

A job offer.


That is it. Nobody gives two struffs if you have a clutch of GCSE's or a PhD in AstroPhysics with Extra Math + Wing Design.

It really is that simple. I've flown with pilots who are borderline thick and borderline genius. It makes not a jot of different to how they drive an aeroplane, command it or run the show. Its an Art.

Get a license and a rating and get as little debt and as few years under your belt as possible is my Very Best Advice. As such you have the most options the least pressure and the most time.

A crappy degree in ICT and some notion that three years of drinking and getting stoned is in some way a wonderful intorduction to life experiences merely illustrates ignorance on an epic scale.

WWW

[StefanB]

The city trading desks are begging good Maths/Physics Ph.Ds to come and work for them(even in the current climate) the desk I work for just hired 2 newly minted Physics PhDs for Quant/trading roles, they will start on excess of 70K+ with zero industry experience, it’s a similar story in all the investment banks & hedge funds.
Hours are long but there is easy money to be made in the city if you have even undergrad Maths/Physics/Engineering from a decent university, let alone Ph.D.

I've managed to save up the best part of an integrated course in the 3 years since leaving uni, pay off most of my student loan and make many contacts so I can get back in if the flying doesn't work out.
Definitely worth looking into if you're thinking of doing a quantitative based degree.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The city trading desks themselves will be in eBay by the end of the summer!

As a plan to become an airline pilot the notion of doing a Physics higher degree in order to get a City job paying enough to fund basic training is towards the more surreal end of the spectrum.

WWW

[Re-Heat]

A young person's priorities in making their decision on university and flying should involve only (a) doing what they will be good at and enjoy, and (b) taking a route that will enable them to earn money in the worst case scenario.

While the simple answer is: a pilot needs a licence, medical and type rating, the reality is that it takes a great deal more to successfully achieve this without endangering one's financial position, and there are many other skills that make the person who is hired, beyond flying ability alone (such as personality, communication and initiative, which airlines will assess at interview, in addition to the sim check).

The OP's plan is eminently sensible and achievable - indeed I know of people who have achieved it at a faster rate, instructed at weekends while at university for cash and hours, achieved a first class degree, and walked into a jet job upon graduation. (Not in underwater basket weaving degrees, and at a Russell Group university as well).

While I am not clear what experience WWW had of university (and indeed I believe he was on a UAS, which is a fantastic experience if you have any military interest), for someone who is able, it is an invaluable experience both of independent work and research, networking, and personal development, in addition to socialising of every colour. I don't know of many other places where you can participate in subsidised societies of many flavours, take a subsidised year overseas in an university, participate in politics and debating to meet leading commentators in their fields both in your degree subject and in other areas, and finally to have experience of life beyond that of aviation alone.

Focus on a particular career is admirable, but closing one's mind if you have the ability and interest is dangerous. Those who are not academically suited or interest should never be encouraged to go to university if they have the ability to fly - you however should take the opportunity and go.


I really loathe posts that advise people to achieve the absolute minimum necessary to obtain a position, be it in an airline or elsewhere. In the end, if someone has ambition, doing the minimum will not satisfy their personal drive, even if they do get the job.

[Re-Heat]

As a footnote, a physics PhD in a univesrity research job is particularly poor paying.

There are however whole markets beyond that, which pay particularly well, and while the banks may be unable to pay $1m salaries to those PhDs this year and next, they will again hire them at those rates in the future, and many hedge funds will continue to hire them in 2008 and 2009.

The debt markets that have died in the past 5 months are but a small proportion of the financial world; not to mention the opportunities in technolody companies, pharmaceuticals and beyond.

A computing degree alone certainly does not guarantee a high-paying job without experience, but it does permit the holder to move into a role that is above that of the average bod on the street.

The financial cost of the degree should of course be borne in mind - you should also consider that you at university to learn, not work in a bar to earn cash - the forecasts provided in posts above are unduly pessimistic though. With summer holiday experience of working in internships (IBM etc), you experience will be greatly increased, your debt reduced, and your standing raised.

Good luck - if favours the well-prepared, not the fools who rush in.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Re-Heat - just to clear up your confusion I did a Joint honours degree in a red brick university which required ABB at A - level to qualify. I had one heck of a good three years and graduated straight into a graduate management job whose title was the same as my degree course. So been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Whilst it sounds all nice and reasonable saying go to University you really do need to weigh that advice against three years of life, loss of earnings, fees and debts incurred.

Fees will be £9k. Most students leave with debts of £9k even after holiday workings. On top of that you have missed 3 years of full time work where you could probably save £8k a year for three years if you lived at home.

So its £9k + £9k +£8k +£8k +£8K = £42K to take the Uni option over the work option.

Thats a Modular Frzn ATPL right there.

And please do not make the mistake of looking down your nose at workplace learning. I used to run both a Modern Apprenticeship scheme AND an undergrduate sponsorships scheme for a hi-tech design company.

After 4 years (starting at 17) my Modern Apprentices would have an ONC and a HNC and an NVQ4 and be paid £21k as a bench test engineer. My graduates would be earning £18k a year in a junior engineering post. I would get far more upset by loosing a modern apprentice to a rival firm than a graduate...

Uni is a lot more expensive and has a lot less kudos than it used to have. Someone focussed on an aviation career might have little to gain from going to university and much to lose.

WWW

[scruggs]

physics PhD in a univesrity research job is particularly poor paying

Very true! I'm in the final year of a Physics PhD. If I were to stay on as a Post Doc in academia, I would have to take a pay cut! A pal of mine obtained his PhD a few years back, and his salary went from £1000 per month as a PhD student to around £920 as a Post Doc := :ugh:

Sorry for digressing from the original topic.

S

[Re-Heat]

WWW - I thought that was your experience, hence you understand my confusion in advising the OP against - particularly as I say, someone who clearly has an ambition to achieve it.

Your figures are incorrect for fees:

http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/paymentbydegrees/tuition_fees.asp

How much do students have to pay?
From September 2006, universities and colleges in England will be able to charge new full time home undergraduate students up to £3,000 a year. Amounts will vary between courses as well as between different universities and colleges. For more information please see Universities and Colleges Admissions Service's website http://www.ucas.ac.uk/.

No student will have to pay upfront. They can apply to defer their fee. Government will pay on their behalf and they will repay the fee loan after graduation.

Existing students will not be asked to pay variable fees.
Universities will only be allowed to charge more than the 'standard fee' of around £1,200 if they have signed up to an Access Agreement with the new Office for Fair Access (OFFA). This agreement will set out the universities proposals for improving access and the action they will take to promote fair access, including providing financial help, so that students from all backgrounds are encouraged to apply.


Will all English universities charge £3,000 for all of their courses?
No: some English universities have decided to charge lower fees for all their courses and other universities may decide to charge a lower fee for some of their courses. The Government's latest regulatory impact assessment estimates that around 9% of courses will charge a fee of less than £3000.

Are the student support systems different across the UK?
The above points refer to English students studying in England, however there are slightly different scenarios for English students studying in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and also for Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish students studying in England as well as in their respective home countries.
English students studying elsewhere in the UK will be charged up to the maximum figure below:
Wales: £1,200 in 2006/7 and £3,000 from 2007/8
Scotland: £1,700
Medicine courses in Scotland: £2,700
Northern Ireland: £3,000

What is the situation in Wales? What about students from Wales
The student finance system in Wales will remain the same until 2007/8. From then students living in Wales will be exempt from top-up fees at Welsh universities - but those living in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland will have to pay up to £3,000. Students living in Wales attending a Welsh university will be eligible for a £1,800 fee grant, so just have to pay the current flat-rate tuition fee of £1,200. Those attending university outside of Wales will still have to pay the full top-up fee amount. Further information is available at http://www.studentfinancewales.co.uk

What is the situation in Northern Ireland? What about students from Northern Ireland?
The order which allows universities in Northern Ireland to charge variable fees of up to £3,000 and which created a deferred repayment scheme was passed in April 2005. Further information is available at: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/05em1116.htm

Further information on the fee arrangements and student support arrangements for Northern Ireland students in Northern Ireland will appear shortly on the Department for Employment and Learning website at: http://www.delni.gov.uk/studentfinance

Students from Northern Ireland studying in England will be liable for the variable fees and information on the student support packages will be available shortly.

Students from Northern Ireland studying in Wales will be eligible for the same package of student support as if they were in Northern Ireland, but it is unclear what fee arrangements will be in place in Wales from 2006/07.

Students from Northern Ireland studying in Scotland will pay a fixed fee, likely to be between £1,700 and £1,900 a year. These students will be eligible for the same student support packages as if they studied in Northern Ireland.

What is the situation in Scotland? What about students from Scotland?
There have been no fundamental changes to the student support system for Scottish students studying in Scotland. There are no tuition fees but Scottish graduates pay a Graduate Endowment - a one-off payment at the end of their course. This is £2145 for 2005-06 and figures are not yet finalised for 2006-07. Students get a means tested loan towards their living costs and those from the poorest backgrounds are also eligible for a bursary.

English students studying in Scotland will pay a fixed-rate fee of £1,700 a year from 2006-07, with a separate rate of £2,700 for medical students. Payments may be deferred by taking out a loan, repayments will begin once graduates earn over £15,000. Students will be entitled to the same student support packages as in their home country

Scottish students studying in England will have to pay the variable fee, up to £3,000 a year. Payment may be deferred until after graduation by taking out a loan for fees. Repayments start once graduates are earning over £15,000. A means-tested maintenance loan will be available. Details are being finalised.

There is more detailed information on the Student Awards Agency for Scotland website:http://www.student-support-saas.gov.uk/

[Re-Heat]

Modern apprenticeships - all very well, but in a declining manufacturing environment in the UK, and coupled with many people (not me) looking down on them, you would be forgiven for dismissing them.

Work-based learning - again fine, if you know what you are doing, but if not, you are going to look like a drifter on any CV.

[4KBeta]

Joffyh...I don't know were you are thinking of studying but those rates for accommodation are ridiculous.

If you are prepared to pay just under £100.00 for self-catered accomodation at uni you are crazy. The whole point of uni is to manage money well and stick to a budget, not to wack up debts and splash out on luxury.

My total student debt is £17,000 ! That is with 4 snowboarding tips, I also played paintball at a national level and my university team (uk champs)

I assume you didn't even consider the fact that MOST people actually get jobs whilst at uni, I worked in a Bar, got me in £200.00 a month.

Even in my final year i payed £55.00 a week for accommodation, nowhere near £70.00.

To me your figures are over exaggerated.

[ecampbell]

--> I know its off the point a bit - but it does depend where you go to uni as to how much you pay - I was in halls in London and i was paying £100 a week for self catering accom....and believe me, there was no luxury apart from no bills....

[Joffyh]

4kBeta...

I was at University of Aston slap bang in the centre of Birmingham. There were only two choices for accommodation, £70 a week for a 1970s tower blocks with 12-18 people sharing two toilets and two showers or £97 a week for en-suite. The price I paid isn't that ridiculous, cheaper than Uni's such as Birmingham, Warwick, Bristol and many of the London ones...

Compared to most other people I did manage my money! I appreciate what you say about getting a job and I hadn't taken that into consideration, if I had stayed then yes I would have worked to help support myself.

Anyway, this topic isn't about how much we each paid for accommodation. You think my figures are over exaggerated, well I'm sorry but you don't know my situation and what would be the point in me lying? Perhaps my student debt would have been less but the way things were looking the figures I stated didn't seem too ridiculous, talk to any student at Aston and you'll find many will quote a similar amount!

[4KBeta]

Not arguing with you, but it really shows were you priorities were. £100 would be above the budget of many, possibly yours?

In regards to a job, most people can't surive at uni without a job, only source of income so it was a bit silly not to consider that.

Anyhow..

In regards to the central London comment, that is too be expected but your find most students recieve a larger loan for that and obviously working in London is usually a higher pay, even part-time, so it is all proportional.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Re-Heat, I believe tuition fees will all be somewhere approaching £3,000. If its a bit less then I'm happy to chuck in the cost of 10 course books to bring it up to £3k a year..

You seem to think that Modern Apprenticeship involve oily overalls and spanners.

The range of Modern Apprenticeship that I ran included Electrical Circuit Board Design, Non Destructive Testing, Electrical Engineering, IT, HR, Financial Management, Customer Service, Procurement, Marketing and Facilities Management. Lots of which is relevant to the Service or Public Sector as well as to the 13% of the economy which is still manufacturing.

We digress but I still maintain that a degree that is 5+ years old with little experience is a poor "fall back" insurance. A much much better safety net would be 4 years work in the real world on a MA scheme gaining ONC/HNC and NVQ qualifications.

The fact the former costs you and the later pays you then its a no brainer for the youngster whose actual goal is to become a commercial pilot.

University is rubbish but fun.

Cheers

WWW

[Re-Heat]

I still maintain that a degree that is 5+ years old with little experience is a poor "fall back" insurance.
You are absolutely right - that is the key point wannabes have to consider - you must have a credible fall-back plan that is realistic to call it a fall-back plan.

(Apologies on your figures; I misread your post as having added £9k three times as 3 years' tuition fees). To clarify - the options you would weigh in that example are:

- £9k fees + £9k living costs - £earnings in holidays gross of tax as a student = £cost of uni
- £earnings of three years' post tax and costs

(of course, extending out to include graduate earnings might weigh on your decision as well, depending upon what you are able to earn post-uni).

Far easier to put the figures in each of the two above scenarios, in order to weigh the two options against each other transparently, than adding the lot together to present a "difference in cash position".

[DanTM]

I'm in a similar position to the original poster, although my position is a bit more complicated.

For a start, I wear glasses.
When I was younger I found out the regulations regarding commercial pilots' eye-sight and showed them to my optician, this was probably 4 or 5 years ago. My eyesight was within the boundaries but I doubt that would count for much at an interview where I'm sure it would be put down as an immediate negative against me, compared to the other potential employees to be interviewed.

Secondly, I’m already in my third year at university, studying (similarly) software development. While not really related to the industry I thoroughly want to be a part of (aviation, obviously), I have been living in Germany for the last five months as part of my placement year on my current course. Due to this I’ve picked up a bit of Deutsch in my time here which is of course a useful thing to have if I want to become a pilot, potentially flying around Europe – as well as the extra bullet point on my CV regarding studying in a foreign country to make me stand out from the crowd slightly.

However, I’ve been living at home during my time at university (bar this year away), so rather than being thousands in debt like most students I’m actually two to three thousand in the black – thanks to a well paid job with lots of overtime I had last summer. This does open up my options a bit.
I’ll be back in the UK next month and for the second part of my placement I need to get another job until the final year of my course starts in the summer, improving my finances even more. Due to this I have been very seriously considering spending what money I do have gaining a PPL on my own over the next year. I don’t really know what I’d do with it though; I just want to be up in the air and learning to fly as quickly as possible to be honest.


There’s always the possibility of going into an aviation-related course after my current one finishes, but some people in this thread have mentioned that they’re pretty useless. Thanks for the suggestions there though digitalsubstance, I just fired off an email to the course leader of the Bucks University one regarding applications. I’ve seen other courses before that offer training for your PPL and I always assumed that they were ‘free’ (as in, included as part of the tuition fee) – there’s no way that could be the case here since they’re offering a full CPL with IR, surely?

Anyway, thanks in advance for any information or help any of you guys can provide.

Sorry for the stupidly long post!

Dan

[Groundloop]

I’ve seen other courses before that offer training for your PPL and I always assumed that they were ‘free’ (as in, included as part of the tuition fee)

PPL ground school maybe, flight training - No! (although possible slight subsidy for some courses).

[DanTM]

Since posting that last night I spent several hours looking into the "Ab-Initio ATPL" courses offered by companies like Cabair and Multiflight that seem to be well recommended on these boards.

I'm now very interested in just waiting for my current university course to end in 2009 and then jumping straight onto one of these training programs. The only issue is that it's obviously a lot of money to throw down and with my eyesight 'problem' it's going to be even harder to get a job at the end of it I imagine.

Yes, I'd be having the time of my life while doing the training, thinking every second how much it was worth the £60k asking price, but when the course comes to an end and I'm stuck waiting/hoping for a job things might seem a little bit different.

I'd just like to ask, what do other 'pilots to-be' with fATPLs do while waiting for their big chance - or is it basically just get the best paid desk-job you can for a while and wait for your opportunity in the airline industry?

Dan

[AlphaMale]

what do other 'pilots to-be' with fATPLs do while waiting for their big chance - or is it basically just get the best paid desk-job you can for a while and wait for your opportunity in the airline industry?

Dan, there are a few options but it depends on the indevidual.

I'd expect you'll be in the same position as me, a BSc in IT that should easily give you a £20k/£25k pa job at a desk 9-5.

But with a fATPL or indeed just a CPL you can get paid to fly. Add a £7k Flying Instructor course to that and you can instruct for a living (albeit while waiting for a positive reply from the CV you sent to the airlines).

FI's pay isn't that good but it's not bad either. Consider you'll be flying as much as 800hrs a year doing something you love but only getting paid £18k / £20k (?) pa.

Some people can't instuct, don't want to instruct or don't have the £7k to do a FI course to instruct. So if they have experience/degree that can earn them £30k pa to keep a roof over their family's head I can't blame them for going back to the office job.

Others that have a big HSBC loan of say £50k around their neck will have £1k debited from their account every month for the next 6 years. I can't imagine a FI pay being enough to pay this loan and live?

Other jobs can be glider tug, banner towing or work with a skydiving school etc

Good luck :ok:

[Shakuri]

I think It is ultimatley a matter of choice. If you don't think a degree would help you in anyway then don't go for it.

I personally chose to do a degree, fully knowing that I did not need one to become a airline pilot. In all honesty though It's the most valuable life experience I have had! I'll be starting my CTC selection next week and I'm pretty certain with a degree behind me and more importantly the experience i have gained from uni behind me, I will have a much better chance of getting through than If i had of applied 3 years ago!

[betty123]

Dan,

If your eyesight is good enough to pass a class 1 medical than an airline won't look at you any differently than someone with 20/20 vision. They just want to make sure you hold a JAA class 1 medical.

Just thought I'd let you know

Katie

[grant1987]

rleunqz, im in the same position as you pretty much :confused:


It was a really difficult decision. Always wanted to be a pilot and have got friends who are qualified/who are training, and we're all going about it different ways, modular/military/university. i decided to go with the "Back up plan" route tho. Im 20 and in my 3rd year of 4 year course at uni, living at home so saving my money up whilst still enjoying uni life. Then planning to properly step into flight training as soon as unis finished hopefully.

In my personal opinion I just thought it would be sensible not to do it this way realy, if pilot training flops or you get injured/ill like it has already been mentioned then i dont really fancy breaking my back 6 days a week in some dead end job trying to break even, hopefully my degree would help me through to a better job if it did go belly up.

Also Ive done some flying already and i've dicsovered theres no way i could concentrate on my exams at uni and fly at the same time its just too much to learn, i think i've got the flying "bug" that people keep talking about, if i started my flying atm, uni would go out the window, flyings certainly more interesting haha! It may seem a bit boring now doing it this way but im hoping it will pay off in later years, if not its another thing to have on your cv :ok:


Hope it all works out for you tho

[Shiver me timbers!]

Hi,

I'm in a similar position in that I have just finished university and looking to go into flying with a career loan of some sort.

Without my degree to fall back on I would not feel comfortable with the loan (+ my student loan debt).

If you choose flying over Uni and can finance yourself through the training without incurring a big debt I would personally recommend it - but only if you know it is something you want to do from the bottom of your heart. Plus it would be wise to sit down and work out the potential total costs from PPL to fATPL (inc. the 100 hours that is required between PPL and CPL) and ask yourself how you will fund this.

You mentioned you genuinely want to go to university - Uni is amazing - ive had the time of my life. There is nothing stopping you from joining the University Air Squadron (UAS) and gaining some experience there. Yes - you won't be able to walk into the UAS - there will be interviews etc but if you're good enough to complete PPL to ATPL training you're easily easily good enough to join the UAS.

Whatever you choose good luck.

P.s. my biggest regret at uni was to not join the UAS :ugh:

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Some thoughts:

Maybe looking at a degree 'to fall back on' shows a lack of commitment, determination and confidence in your ability to succeed as a pilot. Most pilots I know 'always wanted to fly' to the exclusion of all else and did not see themselves in any other role. They did not consider failure as an option and would not understand the necessity of a 'fall back' qualification.

Okay, you might become ill and lose your medical but you can't go through life expecting to walk under a bus or suffer early illness at your age!

Remember, as a pilot you either fly aeroplanes or you're a window cleaner. No offence to window cleaners - it's just an aviation saying. In other words if things do go wrong you have few transferable skills.

A lot of pilots read for degrees that have a bearing on the job - aeronautical engineering for example. This not only adds to their knowledge of aviation, but also provides 'something to fall back on' by default if things go wrong. With a first degree you can always change direction and use that, non-cognate, degree to commence training in another field.

At 18 years of age, you have over 40 years of work ahead of you. You're only young once. Enjoy life, travel and being a 'student'!

Once you're trained as a pilot life will, by and large, be planned ahead - first officer, captain, training captain, manager, retire. Great for some, limiting for others. Flying is great, but the job is routine. Social life not always the best.

I know pilots who live for the job and would do nothing else - others who wished they could get out but have nothing to fall back on.

The choice is yours, but think carefully before giving up the 'student life' - it's part of growing up and provides friends and lasting memories which will augment your experience as a person before 'being an adult' and becoming a pilot.

Each to his own - only you know yourself.

KR

SITW :)

[rleungz]

Hello people!

Long time no talk...Thank you for all your replies :)

Can anyone give me some information on the UAS?

Do they offer a PPL or hours towards it???

Ric

[Shakuri]

Take a look at http://www.universityairsquadrons.com/ alot of information on there.