Question re. capability in bad weather

[MichaelJP59]

Just a fixed wing visitor to these pages:) A question re. something I saw last night; I live in Sheffield and as in most of the country a cold front came through yesterday evening accompanied by very strong gusts, hail followed by heavy snow for a short period of time. About five minutes *before* this event I could see a helicopter over the city (can only assume it was the police helicopter). Lost sight there after as visibility went to ~250m.

I was amazed it was safe to be up in that - is it normal and something that most helicopters could deal with?

For reference this was the Manchester EGCC metar when the same front passed through there:-

EGCC 082020Z 25027G37KT 8000 R23L/1500 SHRA FEW008 SCT013 03/02 Q0997 TEMPO 2000 +RA BKN012CB

[handysnaks]

Remember it was the visibility where you were that went to 250 m.

For interest, over a congested area, with a 'police' pilot experienced in flying over that area in a police helicopter, the weather you noted down (ignoring the fact that it was the weather in Manchester), would not have precluded flight!

[MichaelJP59]

Only posted the METAR as the observed weather was pretty similar as the front moved over Sheffield.

I am impressed with the capability shown though - assuming those sort of conditions would a landing have been possible or would it have been a case of keep flying until an improvement?

[OverTq]

One of the benefits of a helicopter is that landing is always an option! As long as he stays visual with the ground, the conditions can become very bad while still being safe (might not get back to base, though!).

[md 600 driver]

I wondered why you would assume it was a police helicopter


police helicopters get blamed for a mulitude of events unfairly

[Basher577]

Probably because everybody else is going somewhere!!!

[Whirlygig]

I don't think the OP is placing any blame or even being derogatory in anyway; it could even be taken as a compliment to police pilots!

Cheers

Whirls

[MichaelJP59]

I don't think the OP is placing any blame or even being derogatory in anyway; it could even be taken as a compliment to police pilots!

Absolutely, the post was because the conditions were the exact opposite of anything I go flying in:) I assumed it was the police helicopter because it was hovering over the city as it often does, rather than transiting.

BTW would they have weather radar to spot embedded CB cells?

[MINself]

Agree with handysnaks the metar is just that, an airfield report and very rarely will the weather be the same, even all over the same airfield let alone one that is tens of miles away. Thank you though, for thinking of the VFR rotary community when you fixed wing chaps are either in or above the foul weather, with the AP safely engaged when we are occasionally scrabbling around under it!

MS :ok:

[FloaterNorthWest]

Michael,

I don't believe any of the Police EC135s, MD902 or AS355s have weather radar (Not sure on the Bond machines?). I believe the Met EC145s, Devon and Cornwall's BK117 and Dyfed Powys 109 all have it.

That front last night was quite exciting. I went into the IOM just before it and generally the cloud base and visibility was good out of the showers. There were lots of CBs around but they were easy to avoid on the weather radar. Another aircraft followed me in as the front was on us and they reported the same. They also had 74kts of wind on finals.

The only problem with helicopters in wind is starting and stopping the rotors, most medium helicopters have a limit of 50kts. This can be reduced if you shutdown in the lee of a hangar.

FNW

[MichaelJP59]

I don't believe any of the Police EC135s, MD902 or AS355s have weather radar

The Sheffield one is an MD902 so I guess not then.

[Flaxton Flyer]

We have a weather radar on our 902 Air Ambulance. Not much use for day VFR HEMS, admittedly, but great for on-scene X-raying of patients.:)

[MINself]

Hear hear, us rotary chaps don't need some fancy multi-coloured screen to tell us about clouds... we just look out of the window :eek:

[galloping major]

Actually the main worry in that METAR is the temperature. For an ICAO standard day that would put the freezing level at 1500'. C*** weather is not such a problem as icing the beastie up and then looking for a way out of it.

[helimutt]

Speak for yourself MINself. :E We use it a lot offshore.

[MINself]

Sorry helimutt, I should put my last post into context present company excepted :ok:

[mrwellington]

First time I've seen a tempo on a metar......:}

[helimutt]

I know, and the freezing level seems to be more of an issue for us.

[Brom]

Mr Wellington said...
"First time I've seen a tempo on a metar..."

That's because this is a landing forecast, where the Trend (covering a 2hr period) is appended to Metars at certain selected airfields. The most common seems to be NOSIG which I'm sure you've seen many times.

Brom

[Lokon]

MJP
Why didn't you just ring the unit, most Police units will tell you if they were flying and what they were upto within reason. When you lost sight, that could have been when it landed?

[mrwellington]

Thanks Brom......didn't know about the selected airfield concept with tempo's with no period given in metars (baffled me, since a 2 hour tempo given in a 30 minut period metar would defeat the purpose. I've heard of tendancies and speci's on metar, but never of an forecast. Thought that was the purpose of Taf's). Hey, I learned something new :ok:

[MichaelJP59]

MJP
Why didn't you just ring the unit, most Police units will tell you if they were flying and what they were upto within reason. When you lost sight, that could have been when it landed?

Lokon, I could, but I wouldn't want to sound like I'm questioning them, I'm sure they had good reason and were within limits; the front was very well forecasted. I sometimes see the pilots in the EGSY cafe so I may ask them then. When I lost sight they could have landed as they would have had 5 minutes before the squall line hit.

[bananaskiner]

hmmm tries hard to remember minima from paom.....

congested area: daytime.... 600' agl and 1000 metres visibility :bored:
however.. its late and i'm a few stellas into the evening:E

Anywhooo for our fixed wing friends; being sat in the hover in 40 kt winds is similar to sitting in washing machine at 1000' and wearing crash helmet.
Its apparently quite hard work for the pilot too.???:}

[Final Flare]

Bananaskiner,

Close on the minima's, I believe for congested area by night 600' 5km viz, reduced to 2km with CAA exemption, 500' msd withing 1km. Therefore the only cause for concern would be the viz on the aforementioned metar. Not forgetting the small detail of the Pennines, Fohn effect, etc. If the author of this thread was so interested in the weather over Sheffield why didnt he get the TAF/Metar from Doncaster (EGCN) which would have given him more accurate information???? Just a small point i thought i would raise.

[MichaelJP59]

Therefore the only cause for concern would be the viz on the aforementioned metar. Not forgetting the small detail of the Pennines, Fohn effect, etc. If the author of this thread was so interested in the weather over Sheffield why didnt he get the TAF/Metar from Doncaster (EGCN) which would have given him more accurate information???? Just a small point i thought i would raise.

FF, I think Doncaster stops reporting METARs after a certain hour, also in a way EGCN weather is not accurate for Sheffield which is really the edge of the Pennines whereas Doncaster is part of the flatlands.

Should also say my observing position is high on one of the westerly hills of Sheffield looking east over the city - so when the bad wx closed in on me (temp dropped from 7C->1C, hail followed by snow) and I lost sight of the helicopter they would still have had ~5 minutes before it reached the city centre.

Anyway, my main reason for posting was being so impressed that the thing could be up there - and after all the info I remain so:) Just wish I could afford to learn to fly rotary myself!

[Final Flare]

I admire your desire to learn to fly rotary.....

Remember if rotary flying was easy, all fixed wing pilots would do it.....................

[check]

MRWELLINTON

The TREND at the end of some METARS is a more accurate forcast and as such overules the TAF for the 2 hour period. Nice to know when you have a crap TAF.