What's this english test about?

[multi_engined]

My eyes nearly popped out of my head when I just looked at the ASL website...

WTF is this?

ASL are introducing a test to make sure pilots and ATC can speak english? Fair enough to foreign guys who come here but to rip us off with exams, stupid ASIC cards and now some stupid english exam is just getting unbelievable anyway.

Especially for Australians who half of us can't be afford to be flying anyway. How much are they gonna charge? another $200 and a $65 delivery fee.

What a joke.

[pakeha-boy]

I agree.....you ozzies need an english test....christ .....you forgot the "u" in quantus.....ya cant spell either........nope,I reckon you buggers need to be tested for sure....good call for sure:}

[kiwi chick]

Hahahahahahaha, well done Pakeha Boy!! :D

But seriously now.... WTF?????? Are you kidding me?:ugh:

Is a pass in School Cert or Sixth Form Cert English not enough? ;)

(I'm showing my age now, but whatever the equivalent is these days to SC & SFC)

KC :ok:

[Islander Jock]

I wonder if maybe someone from ASL was listening on CTAF around Merredin and thought this would be a good idea?

The fact that this has come up as an agenda item means that some testing officers have probably not been doing their job properly when issuing FROLs.

[pakeha-boy]

.....that also means they should chuck in a course called...

...."a sense of humour 101".....wiff va inglish course two!!!

[Fragnasty]

It's about English.

Dumbass.

[multi_engined]

It's about English.

Dumbass.

Well duh, but why should we be charged for a test on our own native language smartass.

[kalavo]

Cause Dunnunda we speak ostralian, not english! So the Poms and the Yanks might not be able to understand us...

The exam only applies to people wanting to conduct international operations doesn't it?

Or is there fine print in there saying we get Level 4 to begin with then all the PPL holders have to renew it in 2011 even if only flying domestically?

[xXmuffin0manXx]

it wont be hard =.=;;

[Looking]

Gee Wiz,

Looks like u Fly Boys are gonna get jipped yet again. :sad:

Still, there is no regulation ruling that the person testing you can speak a word of English or Ozie or Yankee or Whateva is expected.

Maybe you should lobby to remove the use of radio all together, then there would be no language issues.... Oh hang on, wasn't that what the NAS was all about??? :uhoh:

[Capt Fathom]

but why should we be charged for a test on our own native language smartass
Even if born in Australia these days, English may not necessarily become your language, native or otherwise!!

[kalavo]

Surely this is already included with the current ATPL exams anyway?

I mean how many people have failed because of the way the question and/or answers were worded?

[VH-XXX]

If any of you have flown in Melbourne near Mangalore and sometimes near Melbourne / Point Cook you would understand. Case closed!

[PyroTek]

i think its just because airlines (ex. J*) are going to foreign countries to hire recruits willing to work for crappy wages

[multi_engined]

so what if someone fails the test?..

I'm sure they'll be happy spending the next few months out studying the language when in the end there will be only a financial benefit to those pr**ks sitting behind desks.


Surely this is already included with the current ATPL exams anyway?

I mean how many people have failed because of the way the question and/or answers were worded?

The system is a joke.

:D

[VH-FTS]

Settle down folks...


Australia is moving to adopt international language standards for pilots and air traffic controllers to ensure all communication in the air is clear and accurate.
Proposed new rules issued by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority set out English language proficiency standards.
Existing holders of Australian flight crew licenses who fly domestically within Australia do not need to take any action.
However, holders of Australian flight crew licenses who fly internationally will need to obtain at least a level four English language proficiency.


The international requirement is a joke though.

[Capt Fathom]

FTS. You forgot to post this bit!

Obtaining a new flight crew licence after 5 March 2008

You will need at least a level four English proficiency to be issued a licence. This can be assessed when applying for your PPL licence or above by the ATO testing you. Level six English language proficiency assessors are limited to rating at level six only as the subtleties of the lower levels are difficult to define without intensive training. However, an approved language centre will be able to assess you at all levels. For more information on these approved language centres see Language centres. If you are assessed by a centre to have a level four English language proficiency or above, you can give this certification to your ATO, which they will send with your flight test to CASA.
Obtaining a Student Pilot Licence (SPL) after 5 March 2008

People applying for a Student Pilot Licence shall be assessed by the school’s Chief Flying Instructor (CFI), Approved Testing Officer (ATO) or a CASA Flight Operations Inspector (FOI) as having at least the minimum proficiency to communicate orally in the English language. Additionally the CFI, ATO or FOI will need to sight that the applicant pilot has one of the following documents having:

* The student’s undertaking or completion of his/her secondary education in an Australian, New Zealand educational institution or the equivalent of an Australian secondary education in a specified country; or
* The student having spent at least three in the past five years of employment in Australia, New Zealand or specified country; or
* The student meeting or exceeding the General English Test criteria specified in Civil Aviation Order (CAO) 40.0. For more information on these criteria see General English test criteria.

Level 6 assessors – Approved Testing Officers (ATO), Chief Pilots (CP), CAR 217 Check and Training Captains

CASA is recommending that Approved Testing Officers (ATO) continue their important role in assessing English language proficiency. As well, CASA is recommending that Chief Pilots and Check and Training Captains (C&TC) of international operations be trained to assess their company's flight crew's English language proficiency. Level six assessors will be able to assess level six English proficiency only, as the subtleties of the lower levels are difficult to define without intensive training. If a flight crew licence holder does not reach level six English proficiency, they need to be assessed at a CASA approved language centre. For more information on these approved language centres see Language centres.

To be a CASA approved English language proficiency assessor, firstly you must have a level six English language proficiency rating. CASA has developed a package to both assess and approve you for this role. The package comprises a self instructional book and a telephone interview. The self instructional book will include the ICAO standards and easy to follow examples and test questions which you can complete in your own time.

Once CASA has approved you to be an English language proficiency assessor, we will inform you of your approval and send you a copy of the instrument, which allows assessors to conduct assessment of English language proficiency at level six only. In addition CASA will hold a national seminar series at which you can discuss problems and talk with an approved language expert about any concerns or questions you may have on English language proficiency. Details of this seminar series will be posted on the CASA website in late 2007.

[PyroTek]

couldn't *most* international pilots afford it easily anyway?

[mingalababya]

When I got my Radio Operators License (or was it the PPL? .. can't remember ... too long ago) in 1988, CASA (or known as the CAA back then) required me to sit an English proficiency test because I was born outside of Australia, despite the fact that I had done all my schooling in Australia, completed HSC English, have a Bachelor of Science degree as well as a Diploma in Education, and was working as a Secondary School Science teacher at the time! LOL! Go figure!

[PH-SCP]

In the Netherlands, all controllers did their tests during the last few months of 2007. I did mine in November. It's an Australian made test using local RT, not completely ICAO-standard, in my opinion. Anyhoo, the first portion is a listening exercise with multiple choice questions, the second part is basically the same but requires a little more effort and the last part is a speaking exercise in which one has to use standard and non-standard RT. I had an emergency requiring a priority landing, other aircraft holding and internal RT with fire brigade, airport authorities, supervisor etc.

Nothing to worry about really:ok::ok:

[lk978]

What does England have to do with flying in Australia :confused:

[The Original Jetpipe]

I have been led to belive that the English test is only for "non" english speaking countries!!

IE : If you come from a country where your first lang is English then you DONOT need to be tested!

TOJP.

I think is is a great idea!!! The level of English that is used around YSBK is :ugh :ugh:ugh!
I feel sorry for the ATC guys and girls!!

[pakeha-boy]

quote kalavo....."Cause Dunnunda we speak ostralian, not english! So the Poms and the Yanks might not be able to understand us"...


....that mate,is exactly why you goons need an english test..... when you ****e in your nest,you sometimes have to sleep in it......by the way...Iwas out with your sister last night....her english was great.......she keep saying..."oh my god" ...."oh my god" ..."oh my god".....

..it was perfect english,she passed the "test" with flying colours!!!!!!

...now you on the other hand you need practise,...get to work son,do ostralia proud and get with the english stuff:ugh:

[Capt Fathom]

New aviation language standards (http://www.casa.gov.au/media/2007/07-11-30.htm)

Why not read it all here first hand! :rolleyes:

[pakeha-boy]

Capt F... your eggszachery right...sort of not hard really,and a thoughtful post...

let me tell you whot happened tonight.....KJFK....VOR RWY 22L APPS....let me see....we had,as per my count.....close to 40+ A/C ...poms,kiwis(me)ozzies,argies,icelanders,canookics,russian, korean,....you name it,were all at the party....it worked just fine,...no cockups......all good apps...all 180kts to the FAF.... all clearing the Rwy...all good english.....all good communication..all understood.....no worries............................end of story!!!!!!

[boardpig]

"..it was perfect english,she passed the "test" with flying colours!!!!!!"

Heh heh, very good LOL'd at that one.

I was out at Parkes last week and listened to an arrival of a duchess full of "run the engines on the ground for a rating" dudes from Bankstown.
The "PIC" quite seriously sounded as though he was stumbling over his words and most of them I couldn't make out. (very disjointed)
I ended up delaying my arrival until I heard the words "on ground, clear of active" (I think). I simply couldn't figure out where he was from his calls.
I had a word with him on the ground and basically got attitude. sigh... God help those in the airbus he'll be pic in 4 weeks from now.
The test I believe might well be a goood thing??

[Cap'n Arrr]

The way I read it, aren't all ATO's getting trained/approval to give a lvl 6 rating? You'd get that with your CIR renewal... only if you fail it you have to do the ASL version.

Unless I read it wrong, and need an ASL Engrish exam myself.

Arrrr, thar be a conundrum!:ok:

[triadic]

For those that wonder "why?".... after a number of accidents and incidents that included a lack of english as a contributing factor, ICAO introduced the new standards in 2003 for implementation this year. Fairly quick by ICAO standards!

See extensive post on "Rumours & News" for the mainly pommy viewpoint!

Bottom line is that it makes sense and should see significant improvements in many countries.

[pakeha-boy]

triadic....read many of the posts....some I agree with,some absolute rubbish.

I fly into Mexico and South America on a weekly basis,....its not the english thats at fault...its the accents that come with it..... try even JFK,ORD......christ,they are supposed to speak english,and I have a bloody hard time understanding these jokers.

The down side of this is,and Ive seen it before......you start shoving this english (ICAO) almighty down these countrys throats,and you will see the level of service go down......many of these outfits will never admit it,but there is a certain amount of resentment.

I agree totally with the enforcement,but will it ever happen??? ...they are short of controllers as it is now.......best English controllers Ive come across are the Canadians....the buggers do it right....enjoy dealing with them...but even they have their little quirks.....

for those of us that fly into foriegn countries on a daily/weekly basis.....you get used to it....once you get used to the buggers,its not that bad....but one thing is for sure......you listen twice as carefullly,and anything dubious,requires a read back.......nothing is taken for granted,and always believe your Jepps profile before the controllers,....especially in non-radar environments

[aero979]

has anyone sat this english proficiency 6 exam yet? and if so, can you please tell me how you found an ATO who can do it... because CASA can't tell me!!

And what was in this exam/interview/test:confused:

[flyhigh744]

Yeah. I'm sure a pass in Year 12 where English is compulsary
or a degree of any form would be enough so it is fair to say
this is a rip-off.

[Dog One]

I am sure CASA would know, as they are during the ATO approvals. There is a current list of approved ATO's available from CASA, as I have one. I would suggest to Aero979 to ring CASA and ask for that section, who would probably be pleased to assist.

[aero979]

Gday Dog,

That was department that told me they couldn't give me a name due to the privacy act... awaiting a call from the complaints department...

[Muffinman]

many many moons ago when working at a TAFE college I received a phone enquiry from a person who wanted some info about wanting to get a 'pirate' licence. I transferred them to the maritime section.

[BurglarsDog]

IMHO this requirement is a money making almost unenforceable, non standardisationable (english?) idea.

Good luck to all that sit a test - wherever that may be and whatever it may contain!

Indivuidual experiences / results maybe worth a new thread:-

Apologies to those that have already read this elsewhere but thanks to the author anyways!

THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE: BEAUTIFUL AND DANGEROUS

The beautiful literary traits for which English is praised, such as a wealth of words, are exactly the opposite of the needs for aviation language. Conversation between pilots and controllers needs to be terse and clear, but English now has 38 dialects. Aviation needs freedom from ambiguities, but English has hundreds of them. International aviation personnel need a language which is easily learned, but English is so full of irregularities that even its native speakers require 12 years of schooling in it. Stability over the years is needed in aviation, but there is neither an Academy nor a set of prestated rules to exert linguistic discipline over the evolution of English.

In spite of these disadvantages, in 1951 English was designated for international aviation use. This was done without any supporting data or experimentation. Now, 50 years later, we have reason to believe that the language defects of English are responsible for many crashes and near crashes. Here are some examples:
---------------------------------
1976, Zagreb 176 deaths Language errors by the controller.
1977, Tenerife 583 deaths Dutch pilot used Dutch syntax w. English words.
1980, Tenerife 146 deaths Confusion: TURN LEFT and TURNS LEFT
1981, Corsica 180 deaths Ambiguous language
1983, Madrid 169 deaths Faulty communication procedure
1986, E. Berlin 82 deaths Confusion: LEFT and RIGHT
1989, Azores 144 deaths Communication error with tower
1989, Surinam 177 deaths Pilot ignored tower instructions
1990, New York 73 deaths Wrong message about fuel shortage
1993, China 16 deaths Pilot didnÕt understand PULL UP.
1995, Colombia 159 deaths Controller could not converse in English.
1996, India 349 deaths Hindi controller, Arab pilot, Kazakh pilot
1999, Kosovo 24 deaths Italian pilot of UN flight couldnÕt understand
computer generated warning.
1999, Chicago no deaths During takeoff, Korean 747 pilot skillfully avoided a 747 intruder onto the runway. 380 lives were in danger.
2000, Taiwan 82 deaths Pilot misunderstood runway 5R instead of 5L
-----------------------------------------------------

Page 12 of The PilotÕs Radio Communication Handbook suggests that 12 to 22% of general aviation accidents are likely to be due to faulty radio communications. This would average 17%. An Italian source estimated at least 11% . Since dead pilots cannot testify as to which word or phrase confused or distracted them, there is no way to establish a precise figure. But certainly minimizing the burden of confusion on pilots due to language will contribute to safer aviation.

1. AVIATION LANGUAGE CONFUSION

Now that there are 52 Open Skies agreements between the U.S. and other countries, every major airport in the world might receive airplanes from anywhere in the world. This fact necessitates a universal language for aviation. English has been tried since 1951, but it is inherently too confusing for all concerned.

Currently in the U.S. there is a crazy quilt of 336 phrases pilots must deal with, They are itemized in The PilotÕs Reference to ATC Procedures and Phraseology. It also lists 49 phrases which differ with the ICAO phrases used in the rest of the world. The 80 page FAA Pilot/Controller Glossary cites 44 differences in definitions with respect to ICAO. The PilotÕs Pocket Decoder lists more than 2,000 abbreviations and acronyms. These complexities impose too great a need for memorization onto a pilot, who often must make split-second decisions.

This chaos of words can cause American pilots to misunderstand American controllers. One result is that they erroneously and dangerously move onto active runways. They did so 429 times in the U.S. last year. Eleven runway accidents dating back to 1972 have claimed 719 lives and destroyed 20 aircraft. Over the past 10 years 45 people have died in runway accidents. (Aviation Week, v87, No. 2; Pg. 36) The book, Fatal Words:Communication Clashes and Aircraft Crashes (U. of Chicago Press, 1994) deals primarily with confusion between native speakers of English.

Captain John Cox, U.S. Airways said, ÒOurs is a lexicon of abbreviations, acronyms, and jargon, and just consider how many different versions of English we have. Often our language can be confusing - we have problems with oxymorons, slang, homonyms (to, too, two) etc.Ó

Flying into and out of the U.S. also exposes pilots to differences in measuring systems, because all other countries use the metric system. This adds numerical confusion about altitudes, runway lengths, and fuel weight to the problems of phraseology noted above. Secondary annoyances about documents, such as the manner of citing dates, and the unnecessary duality of U.S. paper sizes are also noteworthy.

Native speakers of other languages have as much difficulty using English as English-speakers would have trying to use theirs. A complicating factor is the existence of 38 dialects and numerous varieties of English. Even those who seem to speak English perfectly can make fatal errors, as did the Dutch pilot in Tenerife in 1977. During an 8 year period, American pilots reported 250 language dificulties elsewhere, and American controllers reported 95 language problems here with foreign pilots, according to NBC. Russian pilots have almost landed on streets in Seattle and Israel.

Misunderstanding equipment on board aircraft is an important new type of language confusion, as noted for crashes in 1993 and 1999, above. The new digital readouts are more mentally demanding than analog ones were. Computer generated English is often misunderstood. Confusion between ROZO and ROMEO non-directional beacons caused the flight management computer to steer the 1995 Colombia flight into tragedy.

There is active resentment of the preferential treatment of English in aviation by controllers in Mexico and France.

2. LANGUAGE IMPROVEMENTS BY VOCABULARY REORGANIZATION AND EDITING

If the existing patchwork of phrases were made into a coherent entity, the 17% figure for accidents due to miscommuncation might drop by 5% or so. This improvement in safety can be achieved by following the method of the International Standards Organization for systemizing technical vocabularies. See: Suonuuti, Heidi. Guide to Terminology. The Finnish Centre for Technical Terminology for NORDTERM 8, 1997. ISBN 952-9794-09-6.

The ISO method consists of carefully defining the overall field of interest. Subdividing it repeatedly produces cells small enough for specific attention. Each of the concepts within each cell is defined. The last step is assigning words to the concepts. The resulting vocabulary has neither gaps nor overlaps. Consultants from the ISO are available for guidance if requested.

The production of this kind of vocabulary would result in elimination of many confusing items, and minimization of others. Non-metric units and acronyms should be eliminated. Homophones, homographs and homonyms should be minimized. One of the 38 dialects of English should be chosen as a model for worldwide use, and the other 37 discouraged.

3. SELECTION OF THE OPTIMUM LANGUAGE FOR AVIATION

Even after reorganizing the Englishvocabulary, many of its defects will remain. They include the following:

1. Alphabet Only 26 letters, insufficient for its approximately 42 sounds. The number of vowels and diphthongs varies according to dialect, from 18 to 24. Since it is the vowels which give clarity to language, this erratic feature of English is a threat to understanding. There are 253 ways to spell the 42 sounds of English.

2. Accented syllable No regularity in its choice. A dictionary often shows two alternate possibilities.

3. Pluralization More than a dozen methods are used in English to make plurals. The word AIRCRAFT may be either singular or plural, so a message AIRCRAFT APPROACHING is ambiguous because it could mean one or more.

4. Homographs More than 1,400 words which are spelled alike, but have different sounds. CLOSE scrape and CLOSE the door, are examples.

5. Homophones More than 7,800 words are spelled differently, but have the same sound. FOUR and FOR, TOO, TO and TWO are examples. Confusion over the last pair caused a crash in southeast Asia. Consider: THE SONS RAISE MEAT / THE SUNÕS RAYS MEET.

6. Homonyms More than 100,000 words have the same spelling, and the same sound, but 2 or more meanings. Words like SET and TURN have more than a dozen meanings.

7. Affixes They have ambiguous meanings and variable spellings. -NESS, -SHIP and -ITY all carry the same idea of the quality of the root word. If FLAMMABLE and INFLAMMABLE both mean burnable, what does the prefix IN- mean?

8. Idioms More than 10,000 of these culture-based expressions. To HIT THE ROAD doesnÕt mean to attack the pavement. SHUT UP is not the opposite of SHUT DOWN. An English speaker is apt to use idioms, as did the Seattle controller who asked a Russian pilot, ÒCan you make the runway?Ó

9. Irregular verbs More than 165 of them LIFT, LIFTED, HAS LIFTED is regular. GO, WENT, HAS GONE is irregular. Verbs must change for singular or plural subjects. Is CRASHES a verb or a plural noun?

10. Word order Subject, verb, object are required, except for yes-no questions, which force a change to verb, subject object.

11. Rules It has been estimated that 1000 rules are necessary to formulate English, and that there are 1,500 exceptions to these rules. It would be difficult to find a more difficult language for multinational pilots and controllers to learn.

12. Guidance There is no Academy, as there is for Esperanto, French, German and Spanish, to provide linguistic discipline. English is a headless giant.

These residual defects of English make it necessary to find a more suitable language for aviation. A scientific research organization, such as Massachusetts Institute of Technology, should be given a contract to determine the relative merits for aviation of several candidate languages. Through experiments the researchers could determine which language most reliably carried messages between aviation personnel of various ethnic backgrounds.

Because the Esperanto language has none of the above 12 defects of English, it seems clear that Esperanto will win in the competition for excellence. If so, it should then be installed as the universal aviation language, after an orderly transition

At this time the General Accounting Office of the U.S. government is accumulating reference information. In due course it will begin a formal study of the problems of aviation language, and move toward a solution.

[mingalababya]

Has anyone applied to CASA for level 4 proficiency as per this application form (form 644) (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/language/applic.htm)? I've faxed and emailed CLARC the form 3 times, been in correspondence with them many times, and still no word on how my application is going. And what happens once I have the level 4 on my license? Do they send out an updated license for free or does the standard $25 fee apply for license re-prints?

It seems the guys/gals at CASA have no clue how to go about processing this.

[bin b'archin]

Just another way to waste bloody time and money :mad:

[rmcdonal]

Did the Level 6 the other day with the CFI. Apparently there is a list of approved providers however that list is confidential and even the guys/girls on the list aren’t allowed to be told (I’m not even making this crap up as a joke, it is really like this). If you go to CASA to do the test then expect $130hr for 1.5hrs of testing..... Or track down an approved tester and expect a MUCH cheaper rate.
Level 6 lasts forever. No need to renew.
As for the CD you have to listen too…… :yuk:

[JW.SOC]

Do the fine people from across the ditch have to participate in the test? They will find it difficult to understand why everybody else doesn't want to do a Kiwi Conversion!
Beck in the Mainland there are "Chully Buns" for your beers to stay chulled whilst wearing a Jersey and Jandles whilst being "Hard Case Hey" whilst you have a DB with your mates. After you funish tulling stories about how you ducked and weaved hey through a vulley that was socked in hey and you shot an IULS in the PECK 750 in amongst hulls like no other in the world hey you would then put you gym boots on and go out and pull the bist chucks out that night and take them beck to where you were flatting and show thum your......................... DVD of the PECK 750 going down the IULS hey!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway just wondering who is required to do the test?

I hope I can have any mistakes corrected before I take my test!:cool:

[Inspector G.]

ASL (NZ) have just wheeled out the English Proficiency Test for all NZ licences (inc. PPL). $100 a to chat on the phone to confirm you speakadaenglish, or if you fail that I recall it was around $265 for further testing. No acknowledgement of prior learning either :ugh:

[mingalababya]

ASL (AUS) does level 6 proficiency tests at a cost of $99. Test duration: 10 minutes. Bloody rip-off! :yuk:

[27/09]

It's a ripoff!!!!!!

In most other civilised parts of the English speaking world and a few non English places as well the aviation authorities consider existing licence holders to be proficient at English and are endorsing their licences without any exam at all.

It seems that in EnZed and OZ that the requirement has been turned into a revenue generator for ASL. At least CASA are allowing testing officers to do the assessment, CAA are not allowing that here in EnZed.

[skytops]

Does anyone know of an ATO endorsed to tick the box for 'English Language Proficiency' in the Melbourne environs?

I have to get Level 4 or higher to get an ATPL conferred. I can do it through ASL with the 10 min $99 telecon, but first available time I can do that is 8 August. Or I can do it through RMIT for $258 (18 July). Or I can do it through Griffith English Language Institute for $195, but I would have to travel to Brisbane. They don't make it easy, do they. I was an English teacher in a previous career!? But the best thing would be to find an ATO approved for the English check, that CASA tells me does exist. I've heard anecdotally that there's one in Perth who charges $25 for the 'endorsement'.

Any leads much appreciated...