JQ EBA to sell out new hires

[What The]

Hear the pretty poor offer negotiated with the best of intentions by non professional negotiators from the JPA has been put to the troops.

Boys not happy. Deal sells out new hires in attempt to curb AWA's. Gents, AWA's are dead. There is no further threat of their use and JQ can't get enough people to join now on the crap conditions.

Throw it out, get professional help, start again and try not to negotiate the lowest cost deal again. Surely you guys deserve more.

If not now, when?

[Keg]

Please, please, please can the J* pilots at least start talking to AIPA so that the two groups can be more fully equipped. All part of the GRADE process. Surely by now you've worked out that the QF crew aren't out to 'steal' your promotions and your future- and more importantly, nor can they- and are just after a deal that enables both groups to have a better future.

I can only hope I guess.

[high talker]

Anyone have any info on what has actually been offered :sad:

[TCAS Shennanigans]

Hostage negotiation is handled by highly trained professional negotiators.
EBA's in most cases are handled by highly trained professionals whom are unbiased and not suffering from stockholm syndrome.

If these guys are going to get anywhere near an offer even worthy of consideration then this one needs to be voted down without reservation.

New negotiations handled by professionals need to begin and a realistic offer drafted.

J* need to stand together on this and vote NO loud and clear, the time has defineately come.

If the angry Irishman can get a 84% package increase then im sure his crews are entitled to something more than the standard 3% benchmark.

This should be an entertaining post to say the least ......

[Pixie Princess]

How about AIPA get off their butts and approach the J* pilot group - FAST!

On 20/12/07, the AIRC awarded AIPA coverage of QF group. What does this mean for J* pilots? J* pilots have heard NOTHING from AIPA.

The JPC and AFAP and J* management do not want AIPA, so AIPA must go and sell themselves to the J* pilot body.

I suggest AIPA write to EVERY J* pilot and explain what the AIRC decision means and what can be done about the proposed EBA before voting at the end of Jan.

If anyone from AIPA reads this, please be proactive and act now. Don't sit around expecting the J* pilot group to come knocking on your door - it won't happen!

[toolish]

High Talker not worth mentioning what is on offer for it is complete crap :ouch:and I hope the vote reflects that but after what happened last time I am not confident:ugh:, fellow Jetstar pilots lets show we actually have some balls this time and vote No:ok:. This is the best time to send a STRONG message to the company.Surely we consider ourselves worth more than this

[G Cantstandya]

The feeling around the traps is that EBA will be voted down by at least 80-90% of the pilot group.....

The problem is that the JPA thinks this is a good deal........

However I can say that from all the guys I fly with we think is utter crap in todays enviroment....

A JPA member has said that the company has hundreds of people waiting to join and they have to get this done to help attract more, but I feel they are being led astray by Joyce and his henchmen...

If this is voted in (which it won't be) why would guys in GA go to JQ, when QF and VB are also hiring huge amounts of pilots and they can get paid more there.

I have joined AIPA and I hope when (this is voted down) they throw in the bin where it belongs, and then can represent us for a much better deal!!

[Keg]

I have joined AIPA and I hope they when this is thrown in the bin where it belongs, they can represent us for a much better deal!!

We may have crossed swords in the past and we may well again in the future however as a fellow association member you can count on my for my full support on industrial matters.

Just say 'no'.

[bongiORno]

Do not be misled by loose descriptors such as 'professional' versus 'non-professional' and instead take a hard look at the talent pool on offer to do the negotiations.

During 2005 the AIPA Reform Group posited that professional negotiators would solve the pilot woes and hoofprints (what an apt callsign) even suggested that someone of Greg Combet's stature would fit the bill. Well, after heaping crap all over the EBA7 and previous negotiators the ARG swept into office and simply recycled a multitude of old cronies who struggle to do any better with L/H EBA8 (or any other issue). The AIPA membership have been deluged with myth and very little fact.

Forget those who with feint of pen and taint have sketched pictures suggesting they can save you. Instead, find yourselves some genuine talent that understands the regulatory enviroment and the IR perspective from each side of the table.

[Wingspar]

Look...you all went through this before and the JQ guys decided to go their own way.

Best of luck to them!

[WhoFlungDung]

Hey Bongo, we have relatively stable rosters, sustainable working conditions and reasonable pay. In the most hostile IR environment that Australia has ever seen and under extreme pressure from an outdated management team, AIPA has held it's ground admirably. Don't let the irishman scare you. AIPA is the ONLY effective pilots association in the country. Be part of it or be left behind. It is as simple as that.

[TCAS Shennanigans]

I have now seen the offer put forward and some of the comments from a JPC member defending it.

Aparently J* has hordes of pilots waiting in the wings as it were, wishing to work for JQ under an AWA.

I'm not sure what they smoking during the whole negotiation process but it must have been plenty strong medicine.

I would have to agree with some of the previous comments that it is indeed complete crap and lacks anything of any substance.

If it wasn't a serious proposal you would laugh at it and I'm guessing there will be some stiffled laughs at the ensuing road shows where bags of fairy dust will be sprinkled around the rooms in an attempt to distract everyone from the harsh realities of the new sh*t sandwhich they are all being asked to take bite of.

The JPC should be ashamed in even presenting it, yes it really is that bad.

[dirty deeds]

VB pilots voted the first spastic offer down by 97%. Hit'em hard the first time around fella's. Our second offer did involve better money and some (I say some lightly) better conditions. Its a massive pilot shortage out there guy's, don't blow the opportunity like VB pilots did. Make it hard for the HR people, make them earn their money. You deserve a big pay rise, and don't forget, your company has alot of aircraft coming and they need your skills. Get some professional HR people to represent you. VB pilots didn't and look what happened.

[Jetsbest]

To the LCC MUST = LOW PAY crowd...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am genuinely intrigued. How is it that some pilots can be cautious with weather forecasts, meticulous with the facts of an MEL and its application, sticklers for SOPs & procedures and yet buy management spin as if it's gospel every time?

In efforts to contain or lower costs an airline can:
- shorten the seat pitch to fit more passengers in,
- minimise the services offered (lounges, bag transfers, meals etc),
- make passengers pay for what they actually use,
- employ staff numbers commensurate with the reduced services it offers, and
- always keep pounding the line that it'll all be unviable if it pays pilots more.

What an airline can't escape is:
- fees charges associated with flying and infrastructure,
- fuel costs,
- maintenance costs(one hopes anyway!), and
- the need for pilots (among some other indispensible skill-sets).

How is it then, that;
- J*'s AJ, SW et al command world-leading packages for their job-descriptions and company size but their pilots accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- despite doing the same job as any others in RPT (ie on the pointy side of the flight-deck door) LCC pilots in Oz seem to accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- many pilots seem unable to seperate seat pitch, services and pay-for-extras in LCCs from the pivotal and unchanging obligations of the pilots (& engineers for that matter) whether LCC or 'full-service'.

I live in hope that improved situational awareness of pilot shortages, and the fact that NO airline can make money without pilots, will help the "we can't afford to be paid more or life won't be worth living" crowd wake up and more astutely value their services.

All the best to the sensible J* pilots who don't believe the offer.

[Mr. Hat]

Keg is right you guys need to unite.

VB boys voted the crap deal down to the tune of 97%. Same size plane - should be similar conditions.

Some lads at vb are doing pretty well these days...

[Rostov]

Nice thought, but whilst the current captain of AIPA keeps steering the boat there is no chance the majority of pilots at JQ would even entertain AIPA. But it's a nice thought keg.

[Going Boeing]

If the EBA sells out new hires, then the following will occur:

Potential new hires will seek employment elsewhere.
F/O's can't be released for command training due to F/O shortage.
Fleet expansion grinds to a halt.

Any current F/O's would be mad to vote for that deal.

It sounds like a similar deal accepted by LH Cabin Crew and it has Oldmeadow's fingerprints all over it.

[tenretni]

Is that the same captain who succesfully managed to gain the legal right to represent all QF group pilots rostov?

Much to the dismay of Qantas and Jetstar might I add!

What is it with guys like you mate?
Just what sort of an agenda are you pursuing anyway?

Jetstar pilots are highly trained professionals who are just as devoted to their career and professional standing as your nearest QF pilot. Nothing differentiates them except the pay and conditions. They too contribute to the GD and AJ caviar fund do they not?

I long for the day when I can pass by a Jetstar pilot in a terminal somewhere and actually stop and shake his hand knowing full well that we stand united as colleagues and brothers in arms. You heard me mate Brothers In Arms!

Because just like my little boy looks at me with pride and wonder when I wear my uniform so does the little boy of the Jetstar pilot and I'll be damned if I sit back and watch management systematically destroy the financial well being and security of either of our kids!

To guys like G.Cantstandya I say good on you mate and welcome aboard. You have my support and respect not as a QF pilot but as a man. You are a rare breed mate that I hope will become common place in the near future.

The time to unite is now and to hell with all the doomsayers and doubters.

[Trashed Aviator]

tenretni maybe you should give up your job and go work overseas for a few years like many of the Jetstar boys had too. Then maybe you would appreciate why they came back on lower conditions. If QF sacked you all tomorrow you would tun back after a couple of years for a job on half the pay.
And yes there is many overseas joiners in the pipe line AND HOW WE WOULD LOVE awaS TO OPERATE FOR qf MAINLINE........

[VH-JJW]

So would some one like to post the details of the offer?

[drshmoo]

Good luck to Jetstar pilots with their negotiations. As I have said before. They deserve nothing less than their VB brothers/sisters. Don't accept any less.

tenretni:D:D:D
Because just like my little boy looks at me with pride and wonder when I wear my uniform so does the little boy of the Jetstar pilot and I'll be damned if I sit back and watch management systematically destroy the financial well being and security of either of our kids!

GD and AJ did not spend time in the outback working in GA or hard yards in the RAAF (no gee up this time), working their but off in very trying conditions to get where they are. But they still attempt to ROB you and you family by delivering another offer not close suitable. Don't accept less. You are all highly trained proffessionals who have a diverse variety flying experince and you deserve to be paid as a proffesional.

I long for the day when I can pass by a Jetstar pilot in a terminal somewhere and actually stop and shake his hand knowing full well that we stand united as colleagues and brothers in arms. You heard me mate Brothers In Arms!

Yet again:D:D:D

Good luck to all the Jetstar pilots with their EBA negotiations, we will all watch very closely as the future of other EBAs across the region will later hinge on yours. Lets hope the bar is raised for you and the industry.

[tenretni]

I have said my piece but just for the record Trashed Aviator I spent the best part of 10 years overseas.

Busting my balls like many others.

So did that mean that I had to come back to OZ on substandard pay and conditions?

Not on your life mate!

To my Jetstar colleagues I say dont buy into arguments like that and lets work together to fix this mess of an industry in terms of pilot pay and conditions for all!

Don't let the bastards hiding behind expensive suits and chesire cat grins take your pride away from you and your family!

Time to unite!

[OhSpareMe]

Hmmmm........let me have a guess. It wouldn't be................ 3% by any chance?

[G Cantstandya]

Tentri/Keg,

Thanks for the support, I think it's going to be a long road for us.

We are not only battling management but I now feel the JPA have really no idea when comes to what our T&C's should be.

If you read one of our JPA's members posts on our web forum it would be plain to see, i'll try and cut and paste it and put it on prune to show you what we are up against.

I for one believe that from the bullet proof door onwards we should all be on similar t&c's regardles of whom we work for and i'm sure most of the guys I fly with feel the same and will vote accordingly.

As i've said before the new EBA will be voted down by the majority of the pilot group and a vote of no confidence passsed on the JPA, which will open the door for AIPA to take control....here's hoping anyway!!

[breakfastburitto]

Seniority is a dead duck. Many pilots would come home to fly anything if their qualifications and experience were recognised. Bring on the AWA's.
Posted by Trashed Aviator on a thread about the Aviation Crystal Ball. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3534604&postcount=7)

One can only surmise your motives for your posting in this thread.

[strobe12]

Is it really that much of a surprise that the offer is garbage?

Do u folks who fly at J* need reminding of who signed off on the crap deals to fly the A320? What about when the lure of flying a shiny A330 came along, did u folks turn down that offer in the hope of something better??

I am sorry but I have absolutely NO sympathy for the J* pilots. It was YOU who set the bar lower then VB when Impulse pilots agreed to the offer to fly the A320's at substandard wages.

Live with what u signed up for and stop complaining about it, you only have ur selves to blaim.

How about renaming the thread "J* pilots get another chance to f*ck it up for everyone else again"

[Tidbinbilla]

How about you moderate your language, Strobe?

Otherwise it's chop-chop for you :=

A note for all:

Stay on topic and don't get personal.

This thread has the potential to get some positive communication going between the relative parties. Please don't spoil it.

TID.

[genex]

Strobe,

Calm down. You are new to this world and need to see a slightly bigger picture. Qantas T and C are part of the reason why the airline is called a Legacy carrier....aka Dinosaur. It lives in a highly protected world....just look at how hard they try to keep SQ off the Pacific.....and can screw exorbitant money out of the punters.

The big US carriers all went through a very painful re-adjustment over the last few years and are mostly all the better for it. Ansett never did and died. The thousands and thousands of jobs created in VB and JQ over recent years are there because the people, pilots and others, accepted the growth/salary trade-off.

If you want jobs and growth.....you need that different paradigm. It's a business and pilots are voluntarily part of it. I have no idea what is in the EBA...haven't seen details anywhere here. If JQ and VB continue to suceed in their international operations...as they should...there will inevitably be an upward drift in conditions. You probably don't even know who PanAm was......but they didn't adapt and now are long gone....though once as dominant on the Pacific as QF is for now.

Slagging off an EBA that you haven't seen, and won't work under is not assisting the cause of better jobs. Neither will appeals to AIPA whose agenda is not job or growth friendly.

[Fragnasty]

28 posts and counting, and still no actual details of the offer everyone is speculating about......

[mmmbop]

Genex,

Your comments while generally accurate about history, have absolutely no relevance to today.

A. J* guys and gals are so far underpaid by industry standards it is a disgrace
B. QF crew get market rates. We are not part of a supposed dinosaur that u and GOD try to paint.
C. The US carriers went through painful re-adjustment because they were failing businesses PRIOR to Sep 11! That event allowed the managements to have an excuse to cut and slash faster than they could have!
D. Re: C, Qantas is making buckets of cash.
E. I am old enough to remember Pan Am, and it didn't fall under point D.

M

[genex]

Yes....but if QF is making buckets of cash on routes where it has iron-clad protection, how can you say pilots are getting 'market rates". Exactly what is the market rate for a wide-body Captain on Pacific routes when there is no free market?

Those who don't learn from history....learn from history.

[tenretni]

Legacy carrier is a term coined and used within the wrong context by some creative but piss poor management with sinister intent.

Genex if we choose to embrace the Legacy concept the way management want us to, then we acknowledge that the terms and conditions of all staff are the only obstacle to success.

If thats the case then give me GD's job and I will do it for less than his 6 million.

Its just not that simple mate.

I too remember Pan Am and at the time of this carrier's demise the term Legacy Carrier had not even been whispered.

In any event an airline can carry a legacy in positive terms. Safety, operational excellence, proud history, national icon. Put that together with record billion dollar profits and I'd say its one hell of a legacy.

AIPA does have an agenda Genex. Ans as much as you or anyone else finds it unpalatable the success of AIPA's strategy revolves around a united pilot body. If you truly believe that AIPA a group of pilots is out to destroy Qantas to bite the hand that feeds them as it were,then what does that say about the credibility of the rest of your post?

With all due respect not a hell of alot.

[genex]

Well said...you parrot the party line beautifully. But......between the 70's and now Southwest, Easyjet and Ryanair have put 1000 ish jets in the sky, carried zillions of people and created scores of 000's of jobs while your "legacy" world view slowly strangled other airlines with the "We've always done it this way" ideas.

Let's have this discussion again in a few years when the dinosaur 744 fleet has weathered a few years of Open Skies on the Pacific.

You too will learn from history.....practically everything in aviation has been done before

[backspace]

Could somebody please post the details of the offer.

[hongkongfooey]

We are not only battling management but I now feel the JPA have really no idea when comes to what our T&C's should be.

I would have thought that was a no brainer GC, the boys across the road in the other 2 LCCs are getting circa 20% more pay for identical jobs ?
Sorry, I forgot the only " no brainers " are some of the JPC reps :rolleyes:

Hang in there, I can tell you that the 100s of Aussies wanting to come home is the biggest load of BS he has come up with to date, the Leprechaun is clutching at straws ;)

[tenretni]

Oh now I get it Genex. Open skies on the Pacific throw in a little Sars and maybe the odd terrorist campaign and your solution.....call it a legacy airline and cut the pay and conditions of all staff.

Brilliant!

Management are often heard saying that in order to attract the worlds best managers you need to offer them carrots laced with gold.

To do what I ask you? If the problem is as simplistic as you seem to suggest then who needs them right?

Come on mate lets cut the crap and lets unite.

We are pilots not airline analysts like that self professed expert that keeps popping up in the popular press from time to time.

I say to all Jetstar pilots that for the first time AIPA has the legal right to represent you and all QF group pilots.

I and many others are extending our hand of friendship and solidarity to you all.

Let us all work together and bring back the true meaning and essence of the words Professional Pilot.

[drshmoo]

Genex - the US Legacy carriers you talk about had existing finacial issues. Throw in a hull loss and terrorist parnoia and the punters won't travel. Managers hide behind chapter 11 and the deck of cards fall.

Poor old Pan Am obviously had financial issues and also suffered from the Lockerby bombing.

QF will remain in good shape for a long time provided the pacific remains as regulated as it is..... and god willing no hull losses.

Learn from history........ JPA will get you less. GD and AJ will sell you loads of BS and scaremongering.

[mmmbop]

Aaaaah Genex it all becomes clear -

how can you say pilots are getting 'market rates". Exactly what is the market rate for a wide-body Captain on Pacific routes when there is no free market?


I didn't realise there are market rates depending on the specific routes I fly. I better drop in and let management know that you have come up with a new concept for paying pilots.

But......between the 70's and now Southwest, Easyjet and Ryanair have put 1000 ish jets in the sky, carried zillions of people and created scores of 000's of jobs while your "legacy" world view slowly strangled other airlines with the "We've always done it this way" ideas.


I love it when someone shoots their own argument down. Jet* guys would love it if they were paid the same rates as the three LCC you mentioned. Hmmm...but maybe that doesn't work cos they fly on different routes to those carriers........

[International Trader]

I agree with Jetbest on page 1.

Why do you think AJ can convince his superiors that he is worth $xxx ?
It is because he has convinced them that he can fill is cheap planes with cheap chips ,cheap peanuts,cheap pilots and cheap F/As.... to make his targeted profit. That is it in a nutshell.
To the company upper management, you are regarded higher than the peanuts only because you are a bigger part of the budget. I am sure that if they could get pax to pay more for more experience, while keeping your salaries the same ,they would try it. In the meantime they probably spend more time looking for more profitable peanuts to sell.Conditions?
Low cost operations are all about looking for alternative income streams and finding the cheapest supplier. Believe me, if CAAS would let them subcontract the supply of pilots and cabin crew, they would leap at it. Don't think for a minute that this has not been discussed in high level meetings.

Me thinks it's all a bit late to do much now.They know that you will take less money because...you already have.


Remember 20+ years ago, back in the Australian airlines' golden age.People were grumbling about better conditions on the "world wide market" , "salaries comensurate with experience and qualifications" and "contracting , that's what I'll do in a couple if years time.Make the big $$$", well, many of those did NOTHING because they wanted to stay at home as well. Guess what, they weren't going to get both then and it won't happen now.You will get even less now because you are replaceable.
Those that have returned from OS ,look at the salaries of the local pilots that you may have been working with in other countries.To many of these guys a Jstar salary will be an improvement not to mention he can get 4 times the house for his money ,better education for the kids and national health.
I don't condemn you for trying to improve your lot but see the forrest for trees .

[Nards]

Here are some hpothetical figures

An airline pilot flies ~850 hrs per year, ie that is the amount of time that they are producing income for the company.

If said pilot got a $20,000 pay rise, this is an extra ~$23.50 paid per flying hour. So with two crew getting the same payrise lets say an even $50 per hour more.

One a typical Aussie flight of say 2hours that is an extra $100 so less than $1 per passenger to pay for the payrise of $20,000 for every pilot.

I am sure a lot of pilots would love a $20K payrise and the $1 per ticket would not even be noticed...

Very simple analysis and yes it does ignore some other costs but, as a passenger, an extra $1 on my ticket to have happy pilots is more than worth it!

Just my worthless 2 cents...

(Don't shoot me down for the figures, they can be out by a factor of five and it means nothing to the average passenger).

[fender]

Here are some more hypothetical figures,
There are about 500 pilots and they should get $20000/p.a. pay rise, minimum.
500 pilots x $20,000 = $10,000,000.
Management are not going to come to the party.
That is how bean counters work. Thay use there fingers on both hands.

[speeeedy]

$10,000,000 sounds like a lot but it is merely:

1 mans salary and bonus for 1 year - good on ya GD.

As for genex:

QF pilots are paid only very slightly above the average for ALL airlines (and that's after the 9/11 inspired pay cuts in the US). Interestingly QF pilots are paid below many LCC's (QF 737 is significantly less than Southwest for example).

The problems you predict for QF may well come true, but it is because our management is too busy worrying about screwing wages down rather than running the business. Just one example out of a thousand is those ageing 744's you speak of, they should have been supplemented and replaced by 777-300ER's by now, but shusssssshhhhh! don't tell anyone, GD wants us to believe they're old technology.

With those aircraft we could fly direct to DFW, ORD, YVR rather than just LAX and SFO, therefore the inevitable competition on the Pacific would be much less of a problem then it will be with the present Pacific strategy.

Nothing to do with Pilots, Legacy carrier or AIPA, just poor management pure and simple.

Ask any QF employee we can point out many many obvious problems with the way management is running this airline.

By all means take a below par salary to help management out, but forgive me if I think you are worth more, and forgive me if I think management should be coming up with better ideas given the amount they are paid.

Just one question: What is unique about the Jetstar business that "requires" their pilots to be the lowest paid in the western world? Serious Question....

[TurbTool]

tenretni,

Would the hand of friendship and solidarity that you are extending to J* pilots belong to the same outfit that for the selfish needs of its members knifed the then solid Pilot Union in OZ in the back some time ago?

Would it be the same one that now wants to steal from that same Union, by legal means rather than by the choice of those concerned, coverage of other QF group pilots that up until now have been left to fend for themselves?

Would it be the same one that does not appear to give a rats about any other members of the aviation community, preferring to leave that task to the aforementioned Union minus the membership it now wants?

It doesn't appear to have a track record of solidarity and therefore possibly no record of friendship to anyone other than itself. How can you expect J* or Qlink pilots to trust it?

[speeeedy]

Would it be the same one that does not appear to give a rats about any other members of the aviation community

We kicked out the guys that you refer to in an overwhelming rejection of previous AIPA regimes.

Since then there has been no inconsistency within AIPA regarding the desire to get all group pilots on a common list.

Remember the guy who spat in the Impulse pilots faces all those years ago (to the absolute horror of most AIPA members) is now the CP, clearly it could be taken that he was not acting in AIPA's best interests; as many of us thought at the time.

[tenretni]

Like Speeeedy says

The QF pilots got rid of the old AIPA regime.

That hand of friendship that I and others are extending does not hold a gun mate!

AIPA has fought a court battle seeking the legal right to represent all QF group pilots and won.

The choice for my colleagues at Jetstar and Qlink is now a real one!

You talk of trust.

Well then lets join forces and give that trust a run for its money shall we!

[jakethemuss]

Now there's two blokes trying to rewrite history!

[hongkongfooey]

Heres some figures for you:

50 pi55ed off Captains flying 800 hrs a year = 40000 hrs.
Every time they go flying, they just want to get home in a hurry, 330/.79 or .80 = extra 200kgs of gas/hour = 250 litres x 40000 = 10,000,000 litres @ ( approx ) $1/litre = $10,000,000

Not even touching on : working on days off, answering phone outside of reserve period, " interpretation " of MELs at out ports, " yep, we can make that taxiway ( brakes are pretty expensive ), " think I'll carry an extra ton of fuel, just in case " etc etc etc.

All things that a) are not safety issues and b) you and GOD have no control over AJ, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it :}

[G Cantstandya]

It's not looking good, the JPA (used car salesman as far as i'm concerned) really do believe this is great offer and keep telling us that if we don't sign the company will walk away from negotiations for at least 18 months (too busy with 787)

I think they have been knocking heads with the comapny for too long and don't know which way is up....

They don't seem to realise that we are the hardest working lowest paid airline pilots in the country..Well it's time for that to end..

I hope and urge all fellow JQ pilots to presure AIPA to represent us ASAP so Jetstar can be an airline people want to fly for, instead of being seen as a bunch of pilots willing to sell their mothers for a jet job!!

[backspace]

Details anyone......anyone?????????????

[Baxter Dewall]

"They don't seem to realise that we are the hardest working lowest paid airline pilots in the country..Well it's time for that to end.."


That is a very arrogant statement to make. I know of a lot of other pilots(airline) in other companies IN OZ earning not as much and working just as hard.

At the end of the day NOBODY is making you stay there and NOBODY twisted your arm to go there in the first place. If you don't like it, you do have a very real choice.

Laying in one's bed that one made comes to mind.

[Wizofoz]

Now there's two blokes trying to rewrite history!

Well Jake, after saying loud and often that J* was going to be crewed by QF mainline (and you KNEW because you were SO CLOSE to the negotiations) you then tried to say that the MOU meant it WAS being crewed by QF mainline.....

So we'll make that THREE blokes, shall we?

[jakethemuss]

Wiz,

It was so close to being true but for a personality clash which created a few hiccups and the fact that a group of Impulse Pilots decided to become the lowest paid drivers in the western world.:D

Can't help bad luck eh! You feel sorry for the poor old legacy pilots? :{

[AIR WARREN]

All pilot's considering joining JQ need to seriously consider their choice.
This EBA presents them with very little compared to what the Captains will receive via the proposed bonus scheme.
ALL Current Captains will receive the proposed bonus and any F/O's with greater than 3 years in the company will also get it.Lets face it, this is nothing
more than blatant B scale pay scheme that as always favours Captains.Combine this with JQ's current disregard for seniority and you get a scenario where an F/O who has been in the company for 2 3/4 years gets squat where a Direct entry Captain who joins today is entitled to a Bonus! Is this fair or a reward for a senior F/O? NO!! Its a crap deal and not only are junior pilot's being shafted by management but also by their senior mates.Well done lads Rob Peter to pay Paul.Send this EBA back where it came from and new starts need to watch this one closely before leaping into this mess.

[Keg]

How is the Jetstar Pilot Council selected? Are they elected? Can you hold an EGM and oust them? How does that side of it work?

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

It was so close to being true but for a personality clash which created a few hiccups and the fact that a group of Impulse Pilots decided to become the lowest paid drivers in the western world
These bottom dwellers were rejected by QF, AN, NJS, Kendell, Hazo, Easterns, Sunnies, Southerns and everyone else. So they had to PAY for a job with Impact via AirScrew Controls. Now they negotiate your T&C's!!!!
You blokes are yer own worst enema's. Sorry enemies:}


See youse!:ok:

[bustard]

Bottom line? Most Ozzy pilots who are qualified to operate the heavy metal have an inbox full of contracts and offers from the world over.

They are all just biding there time to see what JQ offers before they decide whether to come home or take the big money contract elsewhere.

JQ boys and girls, don't get spooked by the drawer full of "expressions of interest".

[coaldemon]

So No One knows what the offer is then from what I can work out. Plenty seem ready to talk about something they know nothing about though.

[Jet Jockey]

I would say J* EBA is nobodies business bar the current pilots employed. Those outside so keen to know should hold their breath till it's agreed and registered or not. Then it will be posted on the various government websites.
What I can tell you is A320 jet commands in less than 24mths and forecast to continue for for quite a while to come.

[fistfokker]

It is an amazing world isn't it where a bloke/blokess with just over two years in an airline, maybe 4500 hours total 1500 jet considers themselves a "Senior First Officer". Average time to command at J* just on 2 years now, and probably for some time to come.

[Going Boeing]

Jet Jockey
What I can tell you is A320 jet commands in less than 24mths and forecast to continue for for quite a while to come.

I can only emphasize what I posted previously:-
If the EBA sells out new hires, then the following will occur:

Potential new hires will seek employment elsewhere.
F/O's can't be released for command training due to F/O shortage.
Fleet expansion grinds to a halt.

Any current F/O's would be mad to vote for that deal.

Genex, one day you,ll wake up to the fact that LOYALTY to managers like Alan Joyce is a one way street. He expects it from his staff but gives nothing in return. If all LCC's are in the same position re the pilot shortage then they can pay their pilots more without destroying their competitive position. A significant increase in salary would increase ticket prices only slightly and would probably not be noticed by Joe Public.

[G Cantstandya]

I can tell that the max a cpatian can make with "bonus'" is 203,000 and the min is 153,000 (with no o/t and company not making "enough" money to give bonus'

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

For the record. There is a groundswell of dissatisfaction at Jetstar. The new EBA package is a disgrace and should be voted down. I wouldn't like to be trying to sell this one to any one let alone a angry pilot body.

DM

[busdriver007]

Low cost carriers do not necessarily mean low cost pilots. It doesn't hurt to vote "NO". All QF group pilots should stand together and then we will see how tough the GD, AJ and IO's(Oldmeadow) are. If they thought about career progression it would be a lot less expensive.:)

[WangFunk]

Looks like Jet* just had a roadshow in South Africa... Watch out with that EBA boys and girls

[DirectAnywhere]

And why do you think they're having a roadshow?

The continued threat that was referred to earlier that, "J* has queues of people waiting to join so you pilots had better agree to this EBA or else," is not borne out by the facts of needing to try and import labour.

BTW, can someone PLEASE give us some idea of what's on offer??

Thanks.

[max autobrakes]

And didn't the new Labor Government out right say, no 457 visas in this sort of situation..
So how is the little leprechaun going to employ this cornucopia of Yarpie pilots then?:}
Sounds like a big bluff to me!

[VeeoneCUT]

Leverage.

That is the key in negotiations. Whoever is on the pilots side of the table need to use the pilot shortage astheir bargaining chip. JQ and DJ are both having difficulty finding experienced jet qualified crew. Both airlines are also having problems of getting to the bottom of the seniority list looking for command suitable upgrade candidates. With all these new aircraft on order the situation will become more acute.

Terms and conditions will go up direct proportion to the needs of the airlines to crew these planes, since their only option is to attract typed and qualified Aussie crew from overseas - CASA will only allow a small percentage of command upgrades at minimum hours. Then it's park plane time and canx flights. EK (Emirates have been parking 777's due to lack of crew) they then put the money up to try and attract more people - but not enough to meet their crew requirements. The same will happen here, just a matter of time.

Many expat aussies are just waiting for an improvement in T's and C's. The EBA team can use this opportunity to expidite the process.

It will happen - but of course the sooner the better.

[TurbTool]

2 points.

Many of the South African pilots already have Australian residency with their familys esconsed safely in Australia while they commute to and from. They will have no problems. I don't know about the others and 457's.

The other is the reference to using the pilot shortage as a bargaining tool "so many expat aussies, awaiting an improvement in t&cs can come home"

Yoohoo, that one got me going. I am sure that is just what the J* pilots should be holding out for.

[MrWooby]

I hope the Jetstar guys do well out of their EBA. A few words of advice.

Firstly, now matter how good or bad the first offer of the EBA is, it must be rejected, this also goes for the upcoming longahul QF EBA. Just look at the shorthaul QF EBA. A very poor deal, which the pilots voted to not even send to the membership. A slightly better deal with a threat of a quick sign off or nothing, which was rejected by the membership. Then a reasonable deal which was accepted. Qantas/Jetstar WILL NOT put their best deal up front. There will be the usual rhetoric from the leprechaun, "accept it or we will replace all of you with xxx". However, this is THE time to make a stand and improve your conditions. You cannot be replaced.

Now how about someone, anyone stating what the offer is ? For both Qantas and Virgin, the details of their offer was released on PPrune very quickly. What are you so afraid of that effectively stops free speech.

[SilverSleuth]

I agree..... Why are the jetstar guys and girls so afraid to say what the offer is??? If it is truely bad, let everyone know. What is the offer ?????

[dirty deeds]

If you were selling your house, would you accept the first offer?
If you were buying a car, would you accept the first offer?

I bet the answer is no, if your smart!

Like I said before, get some professional representation (hire some Mac Bank HR guru's or a good HR industrial relations expert) and absoluely give it to them. Be smart, learn from others mistakes! Call their bluffs and gain some respect from management that you guys are serious and professional. Sorry to say guy's, pilots are the worst when it comes to deal brokering and contract negotiating, look at the history and swath of spastic EBA's that we have negotiated for ourselves.

THERE IS MASSIVE PILOT SHORTAGE GOING ON!!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!WAKE UP!!!!!!!

[G Cantstandya]

sorry guys nothing to post yet, we have'nt even been given the document.

it's "supposed" to arrive in the mail sometime next week, with the vote at the end of the month

From what we have been told the deal in a nut shell is that all pilots will get a 3% increase and a retention bonus each year (paid 1,3,5 years of the eba though) FO's $4,000 Cap $10,000
and the captains also recieve a yearly bonus depending on the QF groups executive bonus package (whatever that means) of "UP TO" $10,000

overtime is calculated at 75 hours and is about $180 for captains and $110 for FO's per hour

Base pay for captains is around $150,000 and $87,000 for FO's (not the new ones though they are on 55%..

The JPA are claiming and i've run the numbers and they are seem to add up that if a captain does 150 hours O/T plus all extra allowances (sim/ground days etc) they should recieve just over 200k.

[Much Ado]

Gee G...don't stop there...tell everyone about the payrise longhaul SOs/'cruise FOs' will get when they are all instantly elevated to FO if the EBA gets up...or tell us about the long term FOs (whether due incompetence or industry slow down)...what will they be getting if the EBA gets up?...or about how pilots currently on AWAs being offered EBAs if the EBA gets up.

So young pilots who were flying Chieftain last mth will only be paid 55% of a captain...Just what does a 2000 hr/500 Multi command wonder have to offer that would suggest 55% was underpaid?

Come on...you've been slagging the J*pg off enough...back it up.

[Keg]

Gee G...don't stop there...tell everyone about the payrise longhaul SOs/'cruise FOs' will get when they are all instantly elevated to FO if the EBA gets up...or tell us about the long term FOs (whether due incompetence or industry slow down)...what will they be getting if the EBA gets up?...or about how pilots currently on AWAs being offered EBAs if the EBA gets up.

So young pilots who were flying Chieftain last mth will only be paid 55% of a captain...Just what does a 2000 hr/500 Multi command wonder have to offer that would suggest 55% was underpaid?

Come on...you've been slagging the J*pg off enough...back it up.


Very unusual for a moderator to be so partisan on D&G Much Ado? Did you forget to log out as a mod and log in as your 'real' person?

For the record I've seen Cantstandya be very pro J* in the past. We've locked horns on the issue in fact due to what I felt was a narrow minded view of what J* does for the wider pilot community. It's on the basis of that action and his action now in criticising the JPC that I'm pretty confident that he's a decent bloke. Stands up for his company when he thinks it's warranted but doesn't hesitate to give them (or the JPC) some stick when he thinks that is what is warranted.

[TurbTool]

Keg, for what is is worth I have for a very long time now enjoyed your posts. Generally they are very well considered and logical. I am surprised that you appear to have agreed with the assumed position that the JPA have sold out the troops.

I have to agree with a previous poster, that the current J* EBA discussions are not necessarily public domain. While GC, who is obviously a J* employee seems a bit wound up, I don't think I would like to be in his/her shoes after the event, should the proposed EBA be voted down.

[virgindriver]

I was thinking the same! Moderator- I don't think so...

As for JQ conditions- why not ask for the same as Rat Shorthaul- doing exactly the same work for the same group. In fact probably more efficiently.

Would anyone like to post Rat conditions in brief here??

[speeeedy]

I would love to post the rat conditions here, but Much Ado who is now exposed as a biased moderator would probably delete the post, because he wants us to believe that $200 an hour is somehow acceptable for a Jet Captain, although every plumber I know would laugh at the amount.

For the last 2 to 3 months I have noticed a distinct change in the behaviour of the moderators. Threads get merged for no good reason and become unreadable, posts get deleted etc etc. I'm sure you have all had the experience where you thought you read something but a few hours later you can't find it.... look no further, the moderators are having a shocker.

[Keg]

Turbtool, don't mistake my criticism of one moderator's partisan comments and my support for one contributor who is prepared to both defend and criticise his company when it's needed as either endorsing or rejecting the current offer to the J* pilots. I have no idea what that offer is and so my stance on this matter is unchanged from the first page- the Jetstar pilots and AIPA need to be working together for everyones benefit.

My concern is that the moderators in D&G have traditionally and generally not strongly espoused opinions on industrial or most other matters one way or another. I've previously criticised the Woomerii via Private Message when they were moderators that I felt they were being 'precious' about J*...interesting conversation back and forward. Interesting that it was comments such as this one by Much Ado that prompted that initial burst to the Woomerii.

Canstandya can say whatever he likes as long as he doesn't break the rules. If he broke the rules I'd expect the mods to take action. He hasn't broken the rules here and I don't like it when mods pass judgements on the merits of someones post when he hasn't broken the rules. Perhaps there is something in all of this that I'm missing and I'd love Much Ado to set me straight.

[Captahab]

Excellent post Keg.
Well done.

I am obviously not the only one to notice that lately there have been thread comment and modification tendencies that seem to be unwarranted and that need addressing if the thread is progressing within the rules as this one seems to be.


Ahab

[Chimbu chuckles]

Wow...I remember years ago the Mods were a LOT MORE active than of late...never slow to express an opinion either....Keg would remember the 'good ol' days'...they were a lot more 'wild west' than now...I don't remember the mods ever giving much of a **** about the feelings of disaffected posters either.

My perception was MA was just asking questions...but I think emotions seem to be running very high in Australian aviation these days....amongst the younger pilots anyway.

From what I have heard the only group of J* pilots who might be 'worse' off are those potential new hire FOs who will be on the 55% deal but only for the first 12 mths...i.e. they don't even work for the company yet:confused:

The widely held view is that the bottom of the barrel is approaching in terms of the experience and skillsets the new hire FOs are bringing to the table...standards and experience are lowering but still have a very long way to go in Australia before it reaches EU equivalency of FOs with several hundred hours TT...I'd hate to be betting a career on the current situation lasting that long...I don't think it will ever get to that point in Australia...but I have been wrong before.

Personally I am a bit sick of reading how hard done by a group of young, inexperienced pilots feel they are being treated. The world is not, and never has been, as you wish it to be but just as it is. Just a few short years ago the experience levels of pilots now gaining entry into J*/VB etc would not have got them a job driving a C404...and it shows...now they arrive in the cockpit of a A320/B737/whatever, not by skill but a fluke of birthdate, and in no time flat are convinced the industry cannot survive without them.

The wheels will fall off this current domestic pilot shortage, and I doubt it is all that far off.

Whether it is Yarpies with residency, expats returning home from the sandpit/Asia (and it won't take all that many to do so - I can come up with 5 names currently showing serious interest in accepting offers that are/were on the table without even trying), more subprime woes, high oil prices or interest rates and inflation...it will come.

Won't it be fun having a BB awash with threads full of anguished cries of "its not fair" or "WTF Happened":confused: from 1500hr pilots who are suddenly faced with the average reality of this cyclic industry:ugh:

With all the stuff happening around the world at the moment Dixon et al are probably praying for this EBA to be voted down.

[iceblock]

Can someone please expand on the 55% deal for new FO's? I thought it was 60%? Or are there new conditions in place?

Also are new hires still being offered AWA's? Do these effectively mirror the current EBA?

Cheers

[toolish]

Can someone please expand on the 55% deal for new FO's? I thought it was 60%? Or are there new conditions in place?

55% for FO for the first 12mth, yes this sucks as does paying for your endo but at least the cruise FO, 60% of the FO wage, is gone an increase of approx 30k for anyone currently on that wage or may be assigned the 330 instead of the 320. Do I like it, NO, but that is the offer.
Also no perf pay till 3yrs as an FO or till becoming a Capt
Also 65% range introduced.

If EBA gets up everyone back to EBAs including new employees.

[dirty deeds]

Chimbu,

You have raised some very good points, there is alot of arrogance/generation Y floating about these days, and the experience levels and maturity are showing on the flight decks. But at the same time its no bodies fault that the industry is booming. Because the industry is booming or the wheels may fall of the cart, does this mean we have to accept lower pay and conditions or sell out the new employee to suit our own needs. Is this how plumbers/trades people/lawyers/doctors or anyone for that matter behave during a well performing economy:ugh:

Maybe we need to strive harder for better pay and conditions, so when the down turn does come, we are able to ride out the storm. And like always and forever, those at the bottom of the list can wait their turn and come back to job that is worth while and descent, not 55% of this and 42% of that rubbish! What are we thinking! We already have to pay for endorsements, some have to pay for parking and uniforms now, what next pay for the fuel as well because some day there may be a down turn?

J* pilots will vote this EBA up, without doubt. As pilots we always capitulate to silly threats and can't play hard ball with HR guru's that think we are so stupid and easily manipulated. Mark Vaile was surprised that VB pilots voted in an EBA as such, during a, quote "pilot shortage", and as usual they sold out the new employee "because it won't effect us". Well it may some day, when the wheels do fall of the cart, and you and I are on the receiving end of having to accept 55% of this and 42% of that, because this is now the normal industry bench mark!!!!!!!!

[VH-JJW]

83 Posts on this issue and still no concrete information. :ugh:

There have however been numerous posts denouncing whatever the offer is, and suggesting that it be voted out on principal. One well known QF pilot has even made comments to the effect that on the basis of this lousy offer (of which he has no idea) Jetstar pilots should investigate outing the JPC.......:hmm:

Reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer, constantly reminding himself to reject the first offer winds up rejecting a beverage.

No wonder Joyce, Dixon, HR et al run rings around us, if they read this diatribe they would most likely laugh themselves stupid. :ugh:

Maybe someone with the FACTS could please post them for the benefit of those who are not aware.

[Keg]

Nothing like being mis-represented is there. :rolleyes: There seems to be a general lack of happiness of the JPC by the J* contributors and I asked how they were elected and how are they gotten rid of.

[jakethemuss]

The following is posted on the Jetstar Pilots own website by a former JPC member:
it was the Qantas management that demanded we all go on EBA's along with better pay and conditions

Bull****!

Now there is a bloke really trying to rewrite history.

The reason the Impulse pilots went on to an EBA was because the now CP of QF (CM), in his capacity as President of AIPA, made it happen.

Jetstar Pilots, do not be misled by people trying to feather their own nest at the expense of fellow pilots. Remember these blokes, (CG, JO, LL, BA, BC) etc have a history of doing this. It is the original Impulse mentality and as long as they can maintain seniority over others (AN) they will do whatever it takes to preserve the status quo.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Ouch that stings!!!!!

[managed]

Here's a fact......... if 51% of us vote this up and we are locked in till 2013 without either the AFAP or AIPA being allowed a look in I won't be happy !!

[Gnadenburg]

Whether it is Yarpies with residency, expats returning home from the sandpit/Asia (and it won't take all that many to do so - I can come up with 5 names currently showing serious interest in accepting offers that are/were on the table without even trying)

I am surprised more expats haven't taken up DEC positions at J*. And it would seem the money and conditions of service are so attrocious that expat F/O's aren't interested at all.

So I have bailed a few blokes up recently who were interviewed or approached by J* for DEC positions- why did they knock the positions back in the end?

One guy stated professional embarrassment. Seriously didn't consider repatriating courtesy of J* for this reason.

Another felt the lifestyle of Australia is unbeatable. But low cost carriers aren't conjusive to an application of the Australian lifestyle anyway.

The last bloke got cold feet when his monthly pay check ( including annual gratuity ) exceeded the entire nett earnings of a J* F/O for the year- an financial excuse to bail I suppose.

[time4change]

? Isn't this an Airline with big plans to grow, how do they expect to get crew with these crap conditions, I cant believe management is serious come on guys turn it down and get real this is your future and your kids.

[G Cantstandya]

jakethemuss,

not a truer word spoken, from what i've seen in my time at JQ the JPA/C have done nothing to provide me with any confidence in them. (the head of the JPA cannot even return emails) I seem to recall that when they voted themselves in to this position, the actual vote varied widely from JPA/AFAP/AIPA but they decided they had the majority and left it at that..:ugh:

The company has 3 times the pilots it had then and i''m sure if given the chance to vote again the JPA would be back flying the line where they belong!!

On a bright note, AIPA/AFAP have been proactive in getting us on board recently, so hopefully when this is voted down they can take the reigns (preferrably AIPA)and bring us along side of other airline pilots in this country!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Well put together and thought out post here. GC spot on. After this current debacle I think there will have to be a spill. I only hope the rank and file see this as the looming disaster that it is.

Doug.

[fistfokker]

KEG, the JPA were voted into the position by a vote of the Jetstar Pilots, conducted by Elections Australia, they can be removed the same way. If a number of pilots were truly unhappy with the JPA reps they could advise such to the JPA and a vote would be held within a reasonable period of time. There a a lot more pilots in Jetstar than the tiny number that posts here.

[TurbTool]

Jake, I know most of the guys from the original IPC that negotiated the first agreement. They have all acknowledged, and I have seen some of those aknowledgements on pprune and other forums, the very real assistance that they received from the AIPA and particularly the President at that time. They are not the people attempting to rewrite history.

I would be interested in you providing some detail of how the people you have named have "feathered their own nest at the expense of other pilots."

At least youi might give them something tangible to respond to.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Its well know TT.

[bullamakanka]

Guys at Jet Star,

JUST VOTE NO, if its a S**T deal. The offer will only get better. You need to look out for new starters too.

I am still amazed the latest Eastern EBA got up. Its not that good considering the current environment.

Its strange that 95% of people you spoke to before the vote did not like the EBA but then it gets through??

To many people fell for the last minute carrot/retention bonus which will be gone if a few years anyway.

We need to get more money put into actual EBA's so its preseeved for the future.

Bulla

[Chimbu chuckles]

Captains getting a decent payrise + potential profit sharing = they will vote yes.

Cruise FOs (SOs) going from 60% of FO pay to 60% of Captains pay (MASSIVE payrise) = They will most assuredly vote yes.

FOs won't get much straight off the bat besides CPI but they will all be Captains inside 2 years if they meet the standards and if airline growth continues (massive payrise) = many/most will vote yes.

Long term FOs (are there any?) go from 60% to 65%= a yes vote.

Pilots not yet employed start on 55% of captains wage for 12 mths then 60% - but don't get to vote except with their job applications.

All plus CPI of course.

So chances of this being voted down purely based on the only pilots NOT getting a payrise being those who are yet to be employed and the incumbent pilot body digging their heels in on behalf of the industry/people they have never met?

I'd say minimal...I'd certainly not bet folding money on it NOT getting 51%...I will not be surprised if it reaches 70%+...its human nature.

J* needs hundreds of pilots in the next several years to crew ordered aircraft. This EBA is an honest attempt by both sides (and I know people on both sides, Gissing (senior management) was my Flying Instructor at Rex in the early/mid 80s - and he is a smart, honest, straight shooter) to retain and attract pilots...if it is voted up but fails in those two essentials, retain/attract, do you not think that both sides will be sitting down again to try and nut out what will, or do you think that management will simply say "Nope...that is it!!" and park aircraft?.:rolleyes:

They're not mentally defective.

[Defenestrator]

AERO TROPICS AIR SERVICES – PILOTS REQUIRED
Torres Strait operations
* C208B pilots on Fly in/Fly out basis

* 7 Days on/ &Days off

Cairns operations

* B200 Full time Command positions
Salary packages ranging from $70K - $100K

Email detailed resume to [email protected]

Times seem to be changing. 100k to pole a kingair is good coin no matter which way you look at it. Hell 70k is. Least it used to be and not that long ago. No wonder the incumbents are doing it a bit tough to attract .....anybody.

[Pixie Princess]

The more J* pilots look at the deal the more it is likely to get the nod.
Chimbu summed it all up nicely.

Some are concerned about how much money hinges on the "bonus". Given that QF management are able to set targets that guarantee themselves substantial bonuses every year it virtually guarantees it to the pilots. It's not all just profit based, it can be on industry relative performance etc, management constantly move the goal posts to suit.

Given this financial year is likely to be a bumper for bonuses, is it worth the risk of a "no" vote?

A "no" vote may send a terse message to AJ & Co. but what is that going to do? Do they really care about morale, engagement etc? - No!

I don't think there is an extra $20-30k per pilot to be gained in a "no" vote, there may be a small increase but more likely a re-jig of the money as per the QF shorthaul EBA - rob Peter to pay Paul as Paul will get the vote up!

Rostering issues are a big concern but these are more an issue for a strong JPA - which there is not. In the current EBA, rostering issues are almost totally outside the EBA and done by consultation between JPA and management.

I would prefer a "yes" vote to get the cash and then throw out much of the existing JPA and get some people in there who can achieve results with rostering. Basically it requires people willing to do the work and provide the solutions to the company (the company will not waste time nor effort on rostering for "lifestyle"). The JPA need to closely monitor the rosters and patterns to ensure equity, fatigue management, lifestyle etc. At present there is little if any of this occurring.

The JPA need a big shake-up. They supposedly represent around 400+ pilots but are more like a Friday night social poker club, fumbling and bluffing their way through. New Hires do not receive a scrap of information on the JPA, many do not know who is on the JPA, there is no published contact information, they provide no information except individual comments on a private website, no newsletters, no nothing. They often do not respond to emails (when you can find an email address that is). They ride on the company roadshows which shows no independence from the company viewpoint. They are ill-funded, ill-equipped, ill-informed, ill-experienced.

What legal opinion has the JPA independently sought about this EBA? The simple grammar and vagueness of the last EBA shows how amateurish and unprofessional the JPA can be when dealing with such important issues and how much it opens the door for a company "interpretation".

They are reticent when dealing with the company, they will not take them on. The sim payment fiasco is a prime example, they take the company view rather than one of the few clearly worded EBA clauses.

They (no doubt under company direction) seemed determined to sideline both the AFAP and AIPA with the current negotiations. They were held in secret with no chance for the pilots to seek AFAP/AIPA representation. They claim no one asked, pretty hard when you are not told of when and where negotiations were held

Lets hope there are no hidden traps or "interpretations" in the new EBA.

[call button]

Jetsscabster,

If you think the JPA are so bad, how come you seem to support the EBA that the JPA negotiated?

[Pixie Princess]

Fair point CallButton, however I don't think there was too much negotiating. More like: -

J* "Here's a deal we think is just good enough to achieve our aims, so off you go and show your support."

JPA - "Yes but,.."

J* "No buts', now off you go!"

JPA "Ok, but what about those check and training positions"

J* "Be good and we'll see"

JPA "Ok then"

Next time round I don't see it being too different, as I said, I don't think there is much more money in the pot and there is the risk of missing the biggest bonus season ever. If this offer is rejected, don't expect another one for quite some time.

The biggest risk with the offer is that there are hidden traps in the detail.

[genex]

So as I understand it, a young F/O with a couple of thousand hours joins Jetstar, flies the 320 as an F/O for a thousand or so hours, then the 787 for a thousand or so as an F/O then gets a 320 command then after a couple of years hard work learning the ropes on domestic routes in the left hand seat of the 320, a 787 command. After a couple of years time to either move o/s on a 777 or 787 contract or settle down to a pleasant Jetstar life doing a couple of Europe or US trips a month plus a couple of trips to SE Asia. Rest of time on yacht or at beach.

Hmmmm....how can this all be so terrible? I must be missing something.

[Keg]

Yes, you're missing quite a lot. Europe trips tend to take at least eight days or so depending on the frequency into the European port. SE Asia trips are generally 3-4 days. You've just signed on for at least 22 days of work a month by my calculation. Doesn't leave much time for the yacht. :rolleyes:

PS: How are you going to afford aforementioned yacht on the current J* offering? :ugh:

[Gnadenburg]

Hmmmm....how can this all be so terrible?

Well it can't be all beers and cheers. Especially if one option is to forgo an Australian lifestyle and as a young bloke join the contract world.

But the beach and yacht lifestyle sounds great. I'm jealous. But can you afford a yacht or a seven figure beachouse?

[genex]

I give up. Being of a naturally positive disposition I naturally see the part of the glass that's full. But, if it makes some of you guys happy to think of a poor 787 captain stuck endlessly in Europe, his cheap yacht being despoiled by seagulls while his wife and children eat cold baked beans in their non-beachside house, then so be it.

[OneDotLow]

One point to consider when voting on this agreement is whether or not a situation will arise in the future where there are more "new hires" on the lesser conditions than those of you who get to vote this time around.

If this is the case, then be VERY CAREFUL about voting it up, as the company can, and in all likelihood will offer an agreement in the future to give them (new hires) a payrise to bring you lot down to a median level.

Why would the company come to you offering you a payrise? Its not out of goodwill! I'd suggest they are using similar tactics to what QF used on their Long Haul Cabin Crew.

If it really is 'all about you' as some posters in this agreement have suggested, then please have a think about the future. Are you going to be outnumbered by people who will cut you down to feather their own nests?

Just a thought....

[VH-JJW]

Perhaps those here with a myopic one legacy airline experience of the world would think that it takes 8 days to get to Europe and back.

However, unlike the Holiday Airline, where the aircraft is one great party bus to get you to the next vacation spot, most airlines these days adopt the apparently draconian approach of actually expecting their pilots to work whilst on duty. Usually that means:

No 48hr slips southbound from Europe
No 36 hr min slip time in London.
No massive allowances southbound

If you cut the fat out, you could quite easily get up to Europe and back in 6 days. Keep the family happy, less fatiguing (see FRMS), less cost to the company and as a bonus, less sitting around fattys and bars listening to BS stories.

I believe Emirates are a good example of this approach.

[OhSpareMe]

Yeah? Oh do go on!

How do you intend to get around the 30 in 7 problem with your 6 day Euro pattern?

[Transition Layer]

JJW,

Not sure who you're working for now (sounds like QF, either that or you have some mates who do). Personally 36hrs in LHR is the absolute minimum I need to go to work feeling human. Unlike Emirates, we are either 9 or 11hrs out of our "home" time zone, and sleeping more than 4 or 5 hours straight is a tough ask.

We are at the end of the line when we get to Europe from Australia and therefore need a bit more rest to recover. The comparison to Sing Air or Cathay or Emirates isn't quite the same. When we fly to the West Coast of the US with one sector each way and only 5hrs time difference, then 30 odd hours rest is definitely adequate. Over and back in 4 days is a piece of piss.

As an example, ever done 24hrs southbound in Singapore after operating the QF32 from London (morning arrival into SIN)? Get off the aircraft feeling like ****, can't help but sleep most of the day, up all night and finally getting back to sleep just as the phone rings in the morning to go to work. It's called circadian rhythm and unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about it.

In any case, as long as people like Genex exist to ruin it for everyone then EBAs like this will always get up. I guess if you set your sights low then you'll never be disappointed. Probably why you're not in QF in the first place.
:D

TL

[Keg]

Transition Layer's comments show why actual experience at this type of flying and consideration of all the facts is important before making comments as to what is possible and what is not. 36 hour slips in Europe are possible if the airline schedule permits but often that's outside of the scope of the crew.

Personally I reckon that we can make some savings on some European sectors (and have suggested such to AIPA) but that just takes a nine day FRA trip down to eight days anyway! :rolleyes:

[ratpoison]

Letsgorated,
Yes emotive, but probably needs saying. Your comments and discussions with a few of the blokes that left EK to go to that sh*t outfit have well and truely confirmed why we decided to stay in the desert. EK have got some serious problems as well, but at least when we go to work, it's mostly with very experienced boys and gals and very professional. Goose Joyce and Co wish and demand that the Jet* Pilot Council/Association (whatever it is called) headed by some ex impulse GA clown who has had a meteoric rise from an A320 F/O to a A330 "Training Capt" in a very short space of time, do all the EBA negotiations instead of the professionalism and experience of the AFAP and AIPA. I wonder whose interest that "experienced negotiater" has at heart. Sh*t, good luck boys and girls.

[Alien Role]

I have been watching the progress of this thread from the start and can no longer refrain from posting.

The first post suggests that the JPA have sold out the new hires for some benefit to themselves.
If that is the true facts, is must be the most shortsighted, selfish and reprehensible act that any "negotiating team" could put to the pilot group, especially under the present situation of a serious pilot shortage.

Any suggestion of the JPA that they negotiate a "C" scale should be voted down 100% by the pilots.
What the hell are these characters thinking... can they begin to think of how these junior crew will have little respect for them and how that can affect the flight deck dynamics.

It has been suggested that the "generation Y" don't deserve anything better and whilst acknowledging that some seem to think the world owes them, they are trying to make their way in this industry the same way we all have, and it is incumbent upon any negotiating team to ensure they get the benefits we have.

Have the JPA ( assuming they are senior pilots) forgotten how difficult it was for them when they started their careers.

The question must be asked, "how close are the negotiating team to the management"???
It also seems from other posts, that the pilots will have only 2 weeks to digest, discuss and get independant advice on the proposed EBA before they are required to vote. This is a common tactic by the HR (Smiling Assassins) department as it gives the employees little time to "get organised"; for you are all flat strap flying, no doubt.

The negotiating team and the pilots they "purport" to represent must have a very good perspective of what makes the Smiling Ass's on the other side of the table tick, and the difference between the professional values of the opposing sides.

The pilot's..... it is a southeasterly stream in SYD, bucketting rain, low cloudbase; you get to the minima and see nothing but a grey opaque and the rain hammering on the windshield - missed approach. Directed to a holding pattern where the F/O feverishly works out a latest approach time before diverting to CBR, where the weather is not much better. Captain checks the numbers, ok.
ATC give you a second approach with 2 min's to spare; at the minima the Capt' sees 3 bars of the approach lights and lands at the max x'wind component on a wet runway.
Taxying to the terminal, the F/O looks across and says, "well done Captain" and the Capt' replies "great support mate, I think you are ready for that command training".
Walking side by side through the terminal and watching their pax being happily greeted by friends, they quietly reflect on how close those pax were to ending up in CBR where their was no accomodation and would have been faced with a 3 hr bus ride back to SYD.

The S Ass's....... well, at the end of the day they are down the pub bragging to their S A friends how they will be able to report back to Dickson, Oldmeadow and Joyce how they were able to keep the Jet* pilot wages at a below inflation 3% and Ha Ha Ha, even got them to sell out the new hires to a "c" scale.

Do these S Ass's have any loyalty to the Company? Not on your life; they will be off as hired guns to the next highest payer, using their results from previous negotiations as their leverage into other jobs.

So what must the JPA and the Jet* pilot's do?
First off, forget the idea that you can match the S Ass's; you are professional pilots, they are professional negotiators, trained in the psychology of negotiating and getting the upper hand over employees.

Next , vote down the EBA 100%.
Next, get professional industrial lawyers to assist .

Some posts have suggested the Jet* pilot's join AIPA; WHY NOT???

The IRC has given AIPA the right to industrial coverage of all Qantas Group pilots.
Obviously by doing that, the IRC recognised the benefit that could be gained to Qantas Group pilots by having a single professioal organisation represent them.

Those 2 pilots that flew into Syd........... does it matter that one may have been involved in an industrial dispute almost 20 yrs ago or the other is the son/daughter of a pilot who was.........the answer should be , NO!!!!!!!!
They did a professional job and had mutual respect for each others experience and skills.

It is high time that we get on with our jobs, and those older of us, that have gained so much from this wonderful industry, do our utmost to support, nurture and ensure that those that follow us have a liveable and comfortable future.

IT IS SURELY TIME, THAT QANTAS GROUP PILOTS COME TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD.

Role on......

[hongkongfooey]

Theres a big difference between being positive and being down right off with the fairies.
Once you jump the 3-400 pilots in front of you vying for 787 glory ( no mean feat with a fleet of 15 requiring 110 skippers ) enjoy the dubious honour of being one of the lowest paid L/H wide body skippers in the developed world.
Oh, and good luck with the yacht and supporting a wife and kids whilst living on the east coast on around 11k net per month.( in 7 years )
Hope you like rowing...................:hmm:

[genex]

Oh we are a bunch of smug little munchkins aren't we?

Big jets go a long way, then have to come back. Get over it. The world is full of long range operations and they don't all have the blessing of the Sacred Rat to help.

And here's a newsflash.....well over 98% of the world's jet pilots don't work for Qantas, never tried, and don't want to. As for me, the idea of joining the world's biggest flying museum has some attractions but I think I like the 777 better. And it's nowhere near as ugly as the old whale or the new one. Maybe I'll think about it later. Qantas fly ancient aircraft, with ancient FAs and ancient attitudes........would they take an ancient pilot? I am very very expert (for a non-Rat Driver) on long range routes, even up in the Arctic where Rats are few. Actually maybe there's none. Never been down there on the ice. So I could be wrong. Sorry....see, you can tell I'm not a Rat Driver, as I a) admitted I might be wrong and b) apologized.

[Launch_code_Harry]

Nurse quick, the Haloperidol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol). The men in the white coats won't be long.

[Transition Layer]

genex,

I think I like the 777 better

Fair enough, but the aircraft an airline operates doesn't really factor into it much for me, as long as it's got at least two shiny jet engines on the wings and made by Airbus or Boeing. What does matter is the conditions under which I'm employed, and the lifestyle that allows me to live. Frankly the JQ agreement doesn't offer a viable long term career path IMHO.

Now your location says "Australia" but you talk about flying over the Arctic? CX perhaps? Commuter? Good luck to you then, but not my cup of tea. Spending any more time on an aeroplane than I absolutely have to doesn't sound like much fun.

Anyway, back to watching the cricket and the storms roll in after a top day at the beach. Enjoy your arctic crossings.

TL

[flyingins]

The funniest thing about this "thread" (for lack of a better description - "twaddle" seems more apt), is that no-one, with the exception of a couple of alleged Jetstar pilots, even knows what the offer is.

Yet you all once again feel the need to rabbit-on, ad-nauseum and in the most negative of terms, about issues that are both completely beyond your control and with regard to the specifics, utterly none of your business.

You all espouse unity but once again feel no remorse in filleting a group of pilots who HAVEN'T EVEN MADE A DECISION YET!

May I suggest you all switch off the ego, anger and "woe is me" agenda-riddled drivel spraying from your keyboards and take the time to make a phone call to one of your friends at Jetstar (don't be embarassed - we know you have them). You might be surprised at what you're told about the agreement.

[permFO]

The original title of this thread was that JQ was to sellout new hires. If this EBA gets up then all new hires will be covered by the EBA and not AWA's. That is not a bad outcome. All this done without the experts from AIPA ,who I seem to recall, managed to negotiate a LH EBA where new hires were able to be based in Singapore while the incumbents were given a 3% payrise.

[ACMS]

Fltingins: Yet you all once again feel the need to rabbit-on, ad-nauseum and in the most negative of terms, about issues that are both completely beyond your control and utterly none of your business.

If my fellow Pilot's are accepting different terms and conditions to do the same job then IT CERTAINLY IS MY BUSINESS.

[flyingins]

Well then ACMS, get on the phone and find out the truth.

P.S - Have you had a look at what CX is offering their Australian-based FO's lately? Surely that's more pertinent to your affairs?

[ACMS]

100% true my friend, I'm in HK.

However what the Australian Airlines offer their Pilot's effects me as well.

I don't know what the JQ Pilot's have been offerered. All I'm saying is that it is the business ( when you said it's non of your business )of all Aussie Pilot's what another Airline does or doesn't pay.

p.s. The current CX salary for direct entry F/Os ( $92,000 AUD ) is a stupid joke. Why anyone with Jet time would want to join is beyond me.

[Just Relaxin]

permFO

You are correct in saying that the last LH EBA negotiated by AIPA did in deed put in place, amongst other things, a Singapore basing for second officers which had putrid conditions attached to it. What you then fail to go on and say is that the committee and executive responsible for endorsing such an act were unceremoniously thrown out of office within days and replaced with the current AIPA team. The new team had attempted to stop that EBA being voted and have spent the last 2 years attempting to mop up the mess left by their predecessors. You might also note that no second officer has ever been sent to Singapore on a basing under EBA 7conditions. LH EBA 8 is being negotiated at the present time and a very strong rumour is that the Singapore basing provisions will disappear altogether.

On another note the general thrust of the JQ EBA offer is known and considering the current, and growing, shortage of pilots, change of Government with ensuing changes to industrial laws, Qantas shares nose-diving and a senior management team that will have to eventually front the market and shareholders with explanations, legal actions for price-fixing including class actions, industrial problems from unions seeking reasonable conditions in the face of a management team that seems to care nothing about wastage and lost opportunities it would appear now is the perfect time for pilots that are behind the eight ball on terms and conditions to put their hands up and say enough is enough. The JQ offer is way below what could be achieved with a bit of solidarity and careful negotiating.

Keep in mind that what is being offered is a non-union collective agreement. This will lock out union representation for any JQ pilot for the 5 years of the EBA at least. Whilst the JPA has good intentions they are not a registered body and thus any dispute arising under the EBA, if voted up, will end up being JQ vs Individual Pilot. The significance of this is that the individual will lack the protection of a collective organization representing them (might be a very costly exercise for an individual in any dispute). Now is the time for JPA to get together with AIPA and delay a vote until a much more honest deal is put on the table for JQ pilots.

Your point about all new hires being employed under the EBA and not AWAs is a perfect example of the mis-information that is being given to JQ pilots. As of the second week in February the new Labor transitional Industrial Relations Bill will take effect which prevents any further AWAs coming into existence so with or without a vote there will be no new AWAs! My point being that rushing into this vote will end in disaster for JQ pilots and they should en-masse be saying to the JPA and JQ management that we want it put on hold until we have more information on which to commit 5 years of our lives. There is absolutely no hurry to commit to a vote.

[Dropt McGutz]

Doing a search on permFO previous posts, it would appear that he once flew for Qantas and is now flying with Jetstar. permFO now seems to be very anti Qantas/AIPA when AIPA re trying to lift conditions. Why?

[bongiORno]

:confused: Just Relaxin might try and explain how come the same constituents that voted the ARG into office also voted YES to that EBA7.

Too many are being blinded by accurately calculated ambiguity and this will continue until the members of AIPA start asking for and getting the truth, without being distracted by fillibuster and half-statements that confuse the AIPA COM.

Could it be that most were honourable enough to recognise that a deal had been negotiated?
Could it be that the infamous MOU might have been a done deal too, except the moustached leaders of ARG chose to fiddle and meddle with it and that is why it must now go to court?

What happened with the ARG in 2005 was a bit like a carload of pilots at the end of a long hot drive and gagging for a beer. They hit town and immediately picked a fight with GD who happened to be the owner and operator of the only hotel and grog shop in the town. It is now 2008 and the guys still have no beer because the ARG were out of control and lacking enough smarts.

[fistfokker]

Just Relaxin, I don't know why you would state that a union would be locked out for the next five years. It is a fact that the AFAP is a party to the current EBA at JQ, and that both the current and proposed EBA provide for Union representation for any pilot that requests it or has an issue.

[permFO]

FF- It demonstrates that AIPA is on the outside looking in when it comes to J* conditions.

DM- Your deductive reasoning is brilliant and I think you should change your handle to NS Sherlock! You ask why? When the current head of AIPA goes to the Senate and suggests that J* pilots are not capable of flying LH ops and that their pilots are trained to a lesser standard during their Command upgrade then I doubt his sincerity when offering a glossy olive branch.

I have no doubt that at the first opportunity AIPA and its membership would happily shaft J* pilots if they could gain unfettered access to the cockpits of J* aircraft. As I have said before, when mainline pilots actually have the courtesy to return a greeting as they pass you in the concourse, then I will believe that they are fair dinkum in wanting J* pilots to be equal partners in a single pilot union.

[Just Relaxin]

fistfokker and permFO

You should both try and check your facts before posting wrong information on this topic. The Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005 as amended in 2006 is definitely a non-union agreement. Sadly it is a fact that neither the AFAP nor AIPA are a party to it. AFAP was a party to the previous 2001 agreement. If you would like to check the veracity of this you can look up the 2005 agreement on the AIRC website and search for Agreement ID: AG 843278. You will clearly see in the 2005 agreement that the only parties as signatories are Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd and the Jetstar Pilot Council.

As I said before misinformation and incorrect statements about this issue are rife and should indicate to all the Jetstar pilots that they should hold off voting until a much clearer and more honest picture is presented to them.

[Boomerang]

Looks like BA pilots are about to take a firm stand with "Open Skies". A major impetus for this is that we have seen what has happened with Jetstar/Qantas.

If Qantas and Jetstar (and the regionals for that matter) do manage to get one union (AIPA) negotiating their agreements, and one seniority list I think that would go a long way to recovering the situation.

It would mean a sacrifice for many mainline pilots though. An 11 year mainline FO being forced to let a 12 year Dash capt take a 767 command. Would you be willing to do this to help bring T&Cs closer together for all?

[CaptCloudbuster]

Perm FO said suggests that J* pilots are trained to a lesser standard during their Command upgrade

This is a fact. 3 Sims plus line sectors for Jet* Command upgrade does not equal the training given to your Mainline Peers:eek:

Aren't you Jet* guys sick of being short changed by Joyce and Co when it comes to your professional improvement?

There are a couple of impatient ex Ansett Pilots who have only recently resigned from QF Mainline in order to obtain Jet* Commands. How inconvenient for them now if the status quo gets upset and AIPA/Jetstar pilots put their mutual distrust of each other behind them to work for the common good!

[rowdy trousers]

Suggest all JQ pilots read what Just Relaxin has to say very cafully - his words contain the only "facts" which have been posted on this thread.

[permFO]

JR- AllI know is that the AFAP had input into the EBA proposal and they have stated in a newsletter that they have repondency to our current EBA.

Capt Dungduster- You are wrong and would you enlighten us as to what a QF 737 F/O gets when he/she moves to the LHS of the same aircraft type. That was where AIPA got it wrong when they suggested to the Senate that J* pilots were given less training. For the record J* Command trainees get a Command school 4 sims, line training, a progress sim check, further line training then a 2 day line check. If QF get anything different for a seat swap I will be happy to stand corrected.

[speeeedy]

PermFO,

Good thing you are happy to stand corrected, a seat change command is still CONSIDERABLY more that you describe...

Also you should stand corrected on this as well:

when mainline pilots actually have the courtesy to return a greeting as they pass you in the concourse

I make a point of trying to catch the eye of J* pilots as I walk by in order to nod hello, however, they all seem to have something of great interest happening on the tips of their shoes.

I was even in a lift with one, and when I said G'day I got no response, I thought, its OK he probably thought I was talking to someone else, although then I realised there was only two of us in there.

[Keg]

QF 737 Command Promotion- already endorsed on type.

Four days of ground School- various bits and pieces. EPs, security, company stuff, etc.

COM1- COM9- total of 9.

Sectors: 20 Training, 6 pre final command check (different rules to normal training) and then 6 for the final command check. Total 32.

Ostensibly it's 7 weeks all up but I reckon you're pushing to get nine sims done in the two weeks they say it takes.

My experience of J* crew in the terminal is the same as speedy's. Very hard to catch their eye let alone have a chat. :( I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to get to know each other a bit better. I apologise in advance for the few prats that we have just as I know that some J* people will be less than impressed with some of the actions of their colleagues too.

[Mr. Boeing]

PermFo, I was flying with one of your ex AN colleagues recently who related a story to me. He has a mate (ex QF SO) who is now an FO on the A330 (Jetstar) and flying to Asia as PF, he asked the captain to put in Bali on the fix page. The captains response, "Why?" The FO then said for situational awareness. The captain then asked how do you do it. The FO said put the ICAO designator in on the fix page. The captains response - "What's an ICAO designator?"
Seems the training may well be lacking.
I've also had the experience of totally being ignored by Jetstar pilots even though I've said hello to them.

[G Cantstandya]

I think there was a feeling of us vs them going on at JQ, for what reason i'm not sure, maybe it's all the slandering we cop on pprune or its our "great" leader telling us not to be polluted by the QF culture as they are "yesterdays" pilots..

However, I think now after seeing this disgusting new EBA some/most of us have had a gutful of Joyce and his threats and are desperate to get AIPA involved and join forces with the QF pilot group to stregthen our postition.

With regard to JQ pilots not acknowledging some of you guys, i believe this mainly due to the fact that a lot of JQ pilots were called scabs by QF drivers when the (crappy) wide body eba went through, and i have seen some friendships dissapear because of this...sad indeed I say...

Lets hope the future holds us all pulling in the same direction and seeing each other as professional pilots, not the enemy as Joyce/Dixon would like!!

[Capt Kremin]

Condition lever, I'd have a very quick think about editing that if I were you.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Perm FO said Capt Dungduster- You are wrong

When people start using insulting language one generally knows ones touched a sore point:ouch:

A cursory check of Perm FO's previous posts confirmed my suspicions of his background and his inherit bias.

This post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3599613&postcount=5) shows his Ansett past and then this post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1409555#post1409555) shows his QF past.

It is in your own self interest in your quest for a quick command you want AIPA/Jet* to continue their distrust of one another.:=

Well, you made your choice to resign from Mainline - looks like your gamble is going to fail.:D

We here in Mainline are determined to put the past behind us and embrace our Jet* colleagues to improve their T and C in order to improve ours.:ok:

[Captain Sherm]

Oh Clodbuster, how generous! And without a thought that your AIPA mates would take all the JQ commands....never crossed your mind. Doesn't affect me except that hypocrisy annoys me. And also that if AIPA get coverage and handle T & C for JQ I'll sell my Qantas shares and replace them with Virgin and Tiger shares as they'll be the only beneficiaries.

[Captahab]

Kevin Rudd was attending a convention in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia and decided to check out the local brothels. When he got to the first one he asked the Madam, "Is this a union house?" "No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't." "Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The house gets $80 and the girls get $20," she answered.

Offended at such unfair dealings, Kevin Rudd stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionised shop.

His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded, "Why yes sir, this is a union house. We observe all union rules." Kevin Rudd asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The girls get $80 and the house gets $20." "That's more like it!" Kevin Rudd said.

He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room, and pointed to a stunningly attractive blonde. "I'd like her," he said. "I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam. Then she gestured to a 92-year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and according to union rules, she's next."

[Capt Kremin]

Sherm, you have no idea how the Group opportunity list would work. J* commands would go to all J* pilots first then whoever had the highest DOJ in the Qantas group. If that is a Q400 Captain, so be it.

Qantaslink commands would go the same way.

So would mainline commands. Everyone gets first divs on their own branch of the "w" then it goes to group seniority next.

No current J* pilot would lose out their J* command to anyone else.

Why don't you check your facts before spouting such rubbish?

[Transition Layer]

Spot on Capt Kremin...

Captain Sherm,
No one is out to steal JQ jobs, it's just about making your T&C closer (or on par) to that of QF mainline so that we can't be played off against each other in the future. Apologies for wanting to work together as a group to get you guys a pay rise...pretty selfish of me.

As long as JQ pilots persist with voting up conditions lesser than mainline counterparts to fly essentially the same aircraft (i.e. 737 v A320, A330 v A330) then I can't help but think YOU guys want OUR flying - not the other way around!

As for your comment's about selling QF shares, what a crock of ****! Low cost doesn't equal low pay, when will you guys stop being brain washed by the Leprechaun? Plenty of other reasons to sell them anyway!

TL

[max autobrakes]

All this posturing between JetStar and Qantas pilots, very much like a hillbilly shotgun wedding! Each clan equally distrustful of the other, however they are forced to put up with each other due to the forced nuptuals.
Yes, there has been things said from both sides,however I truely think that there could be a future of mutual trust and understanding if we could all just bury the tribalism for a moment.
The only ones winning out of all this, is the peanut gallery management who are sh!t stirring from the side lines.
The last thing we want to see is a feud of the Hatfield and the McCoys proportions, we all know how that went.
Here's a suggestion, how about AIPA and the JPC liaising and lets say we all arrange a Saturday soon,say at the Coogee Bay pub or somewhere. All Qantas ,JetStar, Virgin and whoever else is in town, pilots welcome.
Get to meet a few of your fellow aviators in a social context, egos left at the door if you please.
Reminds me of the esprit de corps that used to exist pre that event which shall not be mentioned.
Who knows you might discover the chap or chapet sitting in the other flight deck might not have two heads after all.:ok:

[Capt Kremin]

What a great idea!

[permFO]

I agree with CK. At least its something we can all agree on.

[max autobrakes]

on second thought fark AIPA and the JPC lets just do it.
Anyone want to venture a venue and a date?

[airtags]

about time we realised that basically we're all really on the same side - a little combined strategy is a good thing...besides sounds like it could be a good afternoon...evening...night.........et al;

[-438]

Great idea guys, as there doesn't seem to be much leadership from above, start from ground level with beer.
It's a generational thing, we can stop arguing about biplanes versus monoplanes, flying boats, 1966, AFAP/AIPA split, 1989, impulse, skygods, etc etc.
Bring it on as a regular event and venue Qlink, Jetstar, Virgin, Qantas, Emrites and Cathay guys on overnights, GA guys.
The old guys just have to remember to lock up their daughters......

[blow.n.gasket]

Or if you're into to that sort of thing, sons as well!:}
Great idea, let's make it work rather than just talking about it.
I hear Corey Worthington might be free to act as the Party organizer.

[AnQrKa]

Mr Boeing,

"Seems the training may well be lacking."

I heard a similar Jetstar story relayed to me by an ex AN FO.

It seems they were just touching down in BKK when the captain realised there may be insufficient runway remaining to stop the big jet, being heavy rain and all. So he jumped on the binders, pulled max reverse, checked spoiler deployment and they made the last exit comfortably.

Nice one skipper, remarked the FO as they taxied past the golf course.

[Dynasty Trash Hauler]

Qantas may do longer command training but it does not mean better. What gets up my nose with posts like the one from Boeing is the inference that qantas training is the result of his input. As a line driver, you are trained according to ops policy and nothing more. If QF decided to impliment a shorter command course, you would have no say.

So Mr Boeing, JQ pilots undergo a shorter command course. How does this effect you? Are you claiming credit for the fact that QF has a longer command course?

[Bankstown]

AnQrKa, if that's a story about JQ's A330 it's not likely as they have never operated to Don Muang.

[Keg]

Bankstown, Anqrka is making a snide referral to the Qantas 1 over run at BKK in 1999. If you can see through it he's actually trying to compare penis size or 'your incident/accident was worse than mine'. Until J* have a prang (and i pray they don't) then the default response to any query about training standards will be a reference to a QF stuff up nearly a decade ( :eek: ) ago. It's a shame really because such knee jerk 'I know you are but what am I' type discussions invariably short circuit critical evaluation of current facts and situations. :(

Of course he could be right. J* crew may be aces and fly circles around QF drivers every day of the week. How sad then that their pay and conditions don't reflect that level of ability. In fact, their current pay and conditions don't take into account much of anything to do with what a professional pilot is 'worth' to the airlines. One could even make the argument that given that the J* pilots are obviously so much better than the QF drivers (who require longer courses and still aren't as good) that the J* pilots are chumps for accepting pay and conditions that are significantly less than their less skilled mainline colleagues.

Of course logic like this escapes people like (w)Anqrka who are only looking for every opportunity to fill in that chip that resides squarely on their shoulders by reminding QF drivers of the '99 prang.

[RB63]

As usual Keg, articulate and to the point. Well said.:ok:

[Mr. Boeing]

Not sure where you got the idea that I had any input into Qantas training Dynasty Trash Hauler as I never said anything like it. And to answer your questions, JQ's shorter command course does not affect me. I have no idea why you think it might and no, I am not claiming credit for the fact that Qantas has longer command training courses. I'm at a loss as to where you got these ideas from. I was just relaying a story that was passed to me and I would have thought that someone in that position would not have had to ask those questions. I suspect that he has missed something in his training at some stage.
As for the BKK accident, it highlighted where QF training was lacking and it was rectified.

[AnQrKa]

'your incident/accident was worse than mine'.

Keg, your somewhat childish response highlights how paranoid the QF pilot group is.

My post was an attempt to highlight that ANY airline can stuff up, QF included.

Your post then descends into a purile tirade about income levels. What relevence does this have to an A330 skipper not knowing what info is on the prog page of the mcdoo?

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Boys boys boys. This thread really has degenerated into a "my penis is bigger than yours" competition and at the moment, the Jetstar pilots seem to be on the defensive with some seeming to have a real chip on their shoulders. It's about time you blokes got together and woke up to the fact that you both work for the same lot of cronies who have you by the short and curlies and I might sugest that the Jetstar pilots submit themselves to a pubic waxing so they don't get pulled too much further cos it hurts! But what would I know, I'm just a dumb regional pilot :):):):uhoh:

[fearcampaign]

Oh Dear,

This thread has turned into one horrible pissing contest.:=

If I were senior management of the QF Group I would be reading the above posts and laughing my ass off. Grow up and leave personal/historical issues out of it.

It is very easy to divide and conquer a group that is already so hostile within its own ranks.:ugh::ugh:

The enemy is approaching whilst the defenders sit around throwing stones at each other. Comical but equally upsetting.Talk about an easy target.

The tread is about how to improve conditions for JQ pilots.

If you are not happy with the deal talk to your reps at the JPC or call a piss up and have a chat with your co workers.

This is not QF vs Jetstar or an AIPA v JPC debate.
Get it together or lose out.

The company and its negotiators are not in fighting but sadly we are.:{:{

[Keg]

Paranoid Anq? I don't think so. Sick of people bringing up QF1 as an example of why QF are so crap? Absolutely- with apologies to former AN staff! :eek: :} How QF1 relates to a J* skipper asking a J* F/O why he wants to but WADD into the fix page I don't know.

Personally I could take or leave putting airports into the fix page. I do it most times as I like the instantaneous pictorial view I can get as to where I am in time or space when I expand the range out. Sometimes I can't remember them either....particularly after indonesia/ICAO went and changed Bali, Surabaya and Ujung (I think....been a while since I've been along that route)...but to not know why your off sider doesn't want them there is pretty basic.

So yes, we pranged in BKK. It was poor change management and poor risk assessment by QF as an airline at the time and a couple of errors by crew at the coal face. As you say, it could happen to anyone and everyone. Why it is relevant when some people are shining the torch on some (apparent) issues in one aspect of J*'s (apparent) training regime has got me absolutely stuffed. I guess you're into relativism and so a person (QF drivers as it appears in this thread) is not allowed to mention the possible plank in J*'s current eye because of a plank in our own at some stage in the past. Personally having been in an airline where we had the plank, had the prang and have now had it removed I would think others would be grateful when we try and warn them about what looks like a plank in their eye too.

(If you don't know what I'm talking about with respect to planks and specks and so on then you need to go back to your basic year 5 Scripture teaching and Bible study.) :ok:

[permFO]

Keg- The reference you are looking for is Lk 6:41-42 and The Message gives a contemporary feel to it. Your point has been demonstrated perfectly across the last 150 odd posts as each person tries to scramble for the higher moral ground and in the end we all just sound and act like each other. Maxautobrakes suggestion of the get together reminds me of the Christmas truce of 1914 where the troops on the Western Front just got sick of fighting each other and for a period of a couple of hours met in no-mans land and discovered that the people on the other side were just like them. Lets hope the Australian airline pilot fraternity can avoid what came next.

[Hoofharted]

How absolutely pathetic and appalling. You guys really ought to take a broad look at this thread and hang your heads in shame. Australian pilots will always eat the sh1t that is served up to them by GD and AJ.....Period!!! No ifs, no buts, just open wide and swallow.

Why? Because you all behave like such jerkoffs trying to outdo each other in whatever way you can, interested only in some kind of pissing contest, some kind of perverse need to prove yourselves to the world rather than get on with it, and why? What the f8ck is it good for and what have you ever acheived with this behaviour. Nothing, squat, niks, nada, f8ck all, and so it will go on.

For God's sake, take a look at what the likes of Dragonair have achieved just recently. And how did they do this? because they worked together, without ego, without the petulence of a two year old!! But hey, everyone knows we do it better in Australia. Yeah right......the lowest paid pilots in the western world. Onya Aus. :ugh:

[aulglarse]

Hey MAX ,better make it to Coogee Bay Hotel or thereabouts this coming Saturday, it's the last one before the yes or no week.

[time4change]

Hi Guys and Gals, Im currently with pacific blue have interview with both VB and J* whats the general feeling as in better airline to work for is it true the new hires will only be on 70 odd K for first year with J*? Any Info would be great thanks.

[flyingins]

3 pages later and the "experts" are still insulting Jetstar pilots - from their training to their operational standards to their moral integrity.

Yet STILL no-one seems to know what terms and conditions are actually contained in the EBA.

What a bunch of rocket-surgeons!

P.S - Did anybody really believe that WADD story? Really? Oh, for shame...... :ugh:

[armslides&crossdress]

Well after reading the thread in hope of learning about the TOPIC , I think I will reconsider wanting to go back to Oz for a position with J'star / Qf group, was more than happy to change seats/lower pay but if one has to listen to this crap Top of climb to the green ring forget it...
Really .....:yuk:

[Shot Nancy]

Keg wrote:
(If you don't know what I'm talking about with respect to planks and specks and so on then you need to go back to your basic year 5 Scripture teaching and Bible study.)

permFO wrote:
Keg- The reference you are looking for is Lk 6:41-42 and The Message gives a contemporary feel to it.

As a professional pilot I find the direct references to religion on a professional pilot’s forum offensive. I’m sure you can contribute without such references, if you can’t, then don’t, move on and find a religious based pilot forum, I am sure that they are out there.

[Keg]

Interesting. It's always an insight discovering who is 'offended' by a Christian reference....particularly when the reference is as innocuous as this one.

Shot Nancy, are you also offended by people posting 'There but for the grace of God go I' when referenced to aircraft accidents and incidents that they see could have occurred to them? I've seen that posted numerous times. What about when you read 'reap what you sow'? Are you offended by that one? That too is a biblical reference (Galatians 6:7 if you want to look it up. :E )Both of those are direct references to religion but I don't recall you ever voicing your objection or that it offended you! :rolleyes:

So why this one and why now and in what possible way could it be considered offensive to provide some context to the examples I used?

[Captain Sherm]

Hmmmm.....am with you on this Keg....I had to read his and your posts 3 times to work out how you could have offended him! Still no idea.

And by the way.....we work in a profession where lives are at risk daily....to NOT acknowledge the Creator's role in life is initself a religous statement. As pilots more than most we should be conscious of "Higher" things. Personally I have no idea how planes fly for example and I've been sitting in them big and small for 40 years! So as you say....... "There But For the Grace of God" is not an unknown phrase in my little lexicon.

If I was to look at the scriptures and see parallels....I'd be looking at the labourers in the vineyard who were arguing whether they were worthy of their hire. That would be about Matthew 20 and well repays a good think, from both sides of the QF fence.

[Tidbinbilla]

Good Lord!

That was so untenably incredulous, I could almost hardly believe it!

What was this topic about, again?

TID