Impulse to B787?

[Shaman]

I am not Australian but I am here on holiday from the UK.

There are hundreds of pages about Jetstar in Pprune so please forgive me for not having the time to read them all.

I have a few questions which I hope might shed some light without opening another world war..........

1. When QF bought Impuse, what sort of a/c did Impulse have and how many of each?

2. Did the Impulse pilots join the QF seniority list?

3. When QF set up Jetstar, did it "fold" Impulse into Jetstar?

4. How many A330s and A320s does Jetstar have (their website only has data for 2006); how many 787s are currently planned to be flown by Jetstar?

5. Do QF pilots have the right to fly the Jetstar a/c whilst retaining their position on the QF list?

6. Am I correct in thinking that Jetstar pilots are not on the QF list?

[apache]

WOW!!! thats gonna hit a few nerves!

[Mr. Hat]

I'm going to get in my nuclear fallout bunker and come out when this ones over.

[Keg]

I'm not sure why this one should cause any angst. It's all fairly straight forward.

1. 717. About ten of them

2. No. Completely separate companies. There was some discussion amongst many QF drivers at the time that Impulse was acquired about all QF group employees becoming part of the one pilots association but this was scuttled by some people- perhaps on both sides, hard to tell truth from rumour.

3. Jetstar kicked off in about 2004. Impulse essentially re-badged the 717s but there was an order in for A320s at the time- 24 of them- so it was a net increase of 10 airframes.

4. 6 A330s and 24 A320s I think. Someone may be able to provide more accurate info. 787 numbers are supposedly 15 but who knows in reality. Qantas change their mind on this on a weekly basis. It depends how much they want to rile up the mainline pilot group as to how much of the group expansion is going to Jetstar.

5. Yes and No. There is an MoU in place that covers QF drivers going to J* (on J* T&C) but my understanding is that QF is now so short of crew that they're not actually releasing anyone to fly under the MoU. Given the expansion in QF over the next few years I'd be surprised if there were many people who wanted to take it up anyway. Maybe former Airbus Captains who have joined QF as S/Os may consider taking up command slots again under the MoU or they could go for a DEC AWA. That's more a question for a J* person than a QF person though.

6. Correct. And vice versa. There are however some 'ghost' numbers on both lists for each other. 7:20 slots in J* are set aside for QF drivers. They sit there until used essentially. QF drivers can wait until those seniority numbers are senior enough to be captains before taking them up. Likewise 7:20 slots in QF mainline are now 'ghost' numbers for J* crew who may want to come across. At the moment these numbers aren't senior enough to get a mainline F/O slot but they will one day be senior enough to get onto mainline aircraft as F/Os and eventually captains. Of course there may not be any J* F/Os and captains who are prepared to bid back to QF F/O in five years time but the slots are there none the less.

See? That wasn't so hard was it lads! :E

[PLovett]

I stand to be corrected but I think Impulse is Jetstar. It was just a namechange.

At the time QANTAS purchased Impulse the latter was facing ruin. One of its principal backers, a Singapore based superannuation fund (why does Singapore finance run through Australian aviation so much?) had refused to refinance the company which was losing money on its regional Beech 1900 flights but making cash on the B717.

The owner of Impulse, Gerry McGowan (?) went to QANTAS and offered them the company. QANTAS was looking for a way to start a low cost carrier and the wages agreement between Impulse and its workers was a good place to start. Hence the purchase.

The rest, as they say, is history along with gnashing of teeth, wailing, ashes and sackcloth. And, if you really want to complicate things look at Australian Airlines, supposedly now not flying but I think the company still exists and its lower pay scales in comparison to QANTAS is still a factor in some on-going toil and trouble.

[Shaman]

Chaps,

Thank you very much for the answers - just the info. for which I was looking.

[SIUYA]

Shaman.............

apache and Mr Hat may have had some sense of deja vu re potential responses to your queries...........hence their 'defensive' stance perhaps?

However, even though Keg and PLovett gave you some pretty good answers my guess isthat some PPRuNers would be wondering what's the real reason behind your request.

Care to elaborate? Particularly re your queries Nos. 5 & 6? :rolleyes:

[Shaman]

SIUYA,
Nothing sinister (I am afraid!)
My UK airline has set up a subsidiary. They do not want "mainline" pilots flying the subsidiary's a/c, nor do they want the subsidiary's pilots on the mainline list.
It sounded very similar to QF/Jetstar and I wondered what was eventually agreed with QF.

[PLovett]

Shaman, I should have added that I believe (pure speculation chaps, I have no connection with QANTAS) QANTAS management wanted a low cost carrier so it could scale back its mainline flights within Australia. The whole cost structure of the airline would drag down its profits if they lost market share.

Impulse had a much lower cost base and was ideal for the purpose. The rise of Jetstar has shown just how much they have taken over from mainline QANTAS on those routes where full-fare pax are rare. I still think QANTAS mainline will be seen only on the J Curve between Brisbane and Adelaide with limited flights to Hobart, Perth and Darwin. The rest will be Jetstar.

[Mr. Hat]

No - no defensivness just a bit of tongue in cheek humour. I'm not involved and wish both broups the best.

[Taildragger67]

Australian Securities & Investments Commission (ASIC) search website (http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?acn=069_720_243&juris=9&hdtext=ACN&srchsrc=1) shows that Impulse Airlines was name-changed to Jetstar.

Airbus Orders & Deliveries website shows (guess what... ) Airbus O&D plus has an extra column to show the number currently operated. Looking at the A332s one doesn't need to be Einstein to see that there's been some transfers across (keep in mind there are an extra two on lease from ILFC) - those numbers have been posted on PPRuNe in the not-too-distant past and that's where I pasted the link. Also note there are two 'Qantas' rows (the second listed as 'Qantas Jetstar') - as QF actually ordered the original A320 airframes for Jetstar - plus one actually for Jetstar (to show the 'operating' number).

You can also take a look at Boeing Commercial's O&D website (http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm?content=timeperiodselection.cfm&pageid=m15523) to see 787 data but it's all under QF there. You'll need to look at QF's own news site to see their latest pronouncements re who'll get what.

You might like to take a look at the history of BA and Go a few years ago - a Google search should reveal a fair bit.

Good luck.

[Shaman]

Taildragger67,

Thanks for the info.

[Taildragger67]

No worries. Actually, the only real precedent I could think of when QF set up JQ was, BA and Go. However Go was actually a success - IIRC BA only sold it as it was indeed successful and BA needed the cash from the sale to basically stay afloat. You could even argue that BA ran another airline under its group after it took over BCal. Hence you may not need to go that far from home (given your listed location) to dig up some dirt.

However a few others have now done it - UA and Ted, DL and Song (I think) and AC had a gaggle of them running (which I think has whittled down to just Tango). SQ has had Silkair for a while but I don't think that's LCC - rather, just regionals (but as it's separate it could be let go as the two types of flying seem to have different business models & cost structures).

So two companies under the one corporate group umbrella (even if one is purporting to be an LCC) is a reasonably well-worn path.

Good luck.

[WX-T]

Keg said

There is an MoU in place that covers QF drivers going to J* (on J* T&C) but my understanding is that QF is now so short of crew that they're not actually releasing anyone to fly under the MoU. Given the expansion in QF over the next few years I'd be surprised if there were many people who wanted to take it up anyway.

Only three and a bit years ago. How times change.