Does block time buying and building improve chances of getting a Job?

[shinerrock]

Hello everybody,

I am quite interested to know what the general consensus is about buying block time in one of the flight schools in the USA to add up the total time. Does this improve chances of getting a Job? Would appreciate any input…

[modern monkey]

if you're talking about buying a block of say 100 hrs to boost your total time then I reckon it will improve your chances of getting a job, the more hours the better in this game.

But why buy hours when you have already got a CPL you spineless muppet. Spend the money of getting an FI rating, or get hours by........ working! Banner towing, parachute dropping, aerial photography etc. All good sources of hours and a lot easier to find than an airline job if youve got anything about you.

[A and C]

If you are going to buy a "block" of time why go to the USA when it costs the same in the UK and you get to fly in the enviroment that you hope to work in.


Please email me for more information about inexpensive flying time in the UK.

[PAPI-74]

As modern monkey mentioned, the best hours are instructing hours, so spend it there.
By all means go on a few long xctry flights to places you have alwys wanted to visit. This will really help. I once spent 7.5 hrs flying to France then the Ch. Islands and bact up to Cranfield. The next week I went to Cork, all over Ireland and back in bad weather. Cost a bit, but better than 50hrs of local jollies.

[kwachon]

Get an FI rating and do some real hour building http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/masturbate.gif

[redsnail]

I am against buying block hours as you're depriving someone of a job. Even if the "safety pilot" is receiving an income (which won't be that good in the states) they'll be sitting in the jump seat not gaining the experience that you crave.
If you're in a position to do so, head out to the Caribbean or to Africa and get some real experience if flight instructing doesn't appeal. The time will not be wasted in the great scheme of things.
Hours are but one part in the equation that is the great lottery of aviation.

It would seem that I didn't read the original post correctly. I have no opinion about hour building other than make it interesting and challenging to boost your confidence and have fun.

[Nichibei Aviation]

Please keep in mind that I'm only an employee at Nichibei Aviation and do not consider my opinion to be that of the company for which I'm working:

I personally think that my boss came out with the right idea.
In the actual market, there is too many people thinking that a type-rating can buy him/her a right-hand seat, which gets them to spoil over 20000€ in sim sessions.
In some cases, that will prove to be succesful.
Though we will never know the exact numbers, I suspect that such cases are rare, considering that only few hiring airlines are looking at the money they will save by hiring a guy with the TR, rather than focussing on safe operation.
The Ryanair concept illustrates this best as it doesn't matter to them whether you do or do not already have a TR as you will pay for it yourself anyway.

Hour building is a better alternative, there is no questionning.
Well, at least that would be the case for a pilot coming out of CPL IR ME and having only 200 hours or so, putting aside ex-military pilots or people with similar experience.

I don't quite understand what you mean by depriving someone of a job with block hours, redsnail, I would like to have more explanations on that.
The only job I think one can deprive is that of type-rating instructors.

Anyway I think that block hour building, certzilny multi-engine is a good alternative considering that you can get hours fast without waisting anymore time, and you don't have to waiste 6000€ or more in FI training (though you get that back gradually).
Also, not everyone is keen at instructing and not everyone sees it as an enjoyable experience.

Finally, if everyone would become FI, there would obviously be more FI's than students.

[redsnail]

If you're buying block hours I interpret that as paying to be an FO for a company. If you're paying to sit there, that means there's an FO position that should be salaried gone.

If he/she means paying for x amount of twin/single engine piston time to build hours then all they're doing is hour building. That's ok, we've all done it to get the experience required for the licence. My thoughts are if you're going to buy some twin time, go some where interesting that'll challenge you in a measured way. This'll do wonders for consolidation and confidence. Drilling holes in the sky looking at your local area isn't as useful in the great scheme of things.

Better still, if you have a CPL, get a job in an interesting area. :ok:

[Pilot Pete]

If you are buying piston single or twin hours, then in my opinion it will not really help towards an airline job. Why? Because if you haven't flown anything other than a piston aeroplane then (at least here in the UK) you are still considered to be a 'low houred' pilot, even if you have several hundred hours. Obviously for a turbo-prop job if you have 1000hrs piston it will make you stand out compared to a 200hr applicant, it won't cut much mustard in the jet world though and are you really going to buy that many hours?

Like others have said, the quality of those hours is more important, so go and fly for your job rather than buy blocks of hours - become an instructor and get the hours at someone else's expense as well as the better entry on your CV.

PP

[AlphaMale]

I agree with the above, you already have a 'commercial' licence so get a job and charge for your services. I'd rather earn £15k per year flying 800hrs than earn £30k per year in an office and then having to pay €25k / £18,500 for 75hrs ME time in a Cessna 310 in Spain.
Good luck.

[Nichibei Aviation]

If you are buying piston single or twin hours, then in my opinion it will not really help towards an airline job. Why? Because if you haven't flown anything other than a piston aeroplane then (at least here in the UK) you are still considered to be a 'low houred' pilot, even if you have several hundred hours.


This is absolutely true.
How do airline selections happen, from an airline point of view?

1.They look at their needs, say 200 new F/O's to be hired immediately
2.They look at the applications, say 550.
3.Two piles are formed: the smaller one consisting of say 50 pilots with jet/turboprop experience and over 1000 hours TT, the bigger one with all less than 1000 hours applicants, say 500 candidates.
4.Priority is given to the first bunch of 50, routine selection, routine passing,95% pass rate.
5.Moving to the hard part, selection of 150 new F/O's among the 500 newbie applicants: all that's near to 500 hours has made an effort to gain experience through instruction, hour building. 75 candidates out of the 100 who match this profile are selected.Pass rate 75%
6.Still need to select 75 candidates out of straight-out-of-school 400 newbies. Selection based on suitability of candidates.Pass rate 18%


Therefore you are right that piston engine experience is not very valuable compared to jet/turboprop experience but it is good to lift your total experience up and to show the airline you are motivated about aviation, and that you don't smell like the kid coming straight out of school standing next to you.

[scooby79]

It really annoys me how there seems to be this weird drive among so many new CPL holders to do nothing else other than get an airline job flying a jet and if that doesn't work just keep throwing money at it until you either get one or give up as have no money left. If you don't like flying a small plane, chances are you will not enjoy being a pilot once the mystical thing that is driving you now becomes just a job.

There are jobs out there but they are hard to find and are hard work but they are there. It may be a year in a single then a year in a twin then a year in a turboprop and then the airline job. You shouldn't have to pay for time after you have a CPL. If that seems like a bit of a drag as why would you want to fly those sort of planes when you could spend another 20-30,000 and maybe get a low paying airline job for a few years before going onto proper money. You are destroying the opportunities for people who enjoy flying but don't have the money. You are making the way the industry is starting to hire new pilots a joke. You are wasting a lot of your money as it is you that is making it a requirement to spend it. Well done.

If there are people reading this who love flying and just want to get into anything and get paid to do it regardless of a/c type or the perceived glory of the airline job send me a pm. I obviously can not offer you a job as don't have any to give but could maybe point you in a few directions.

[AlphaMale]

Scooby - makes me wonder if some people are doing it for the money or the love of flying?

[scooby79]

The spending of money?

I think it is some weird psychological thing that some people have which means they will stop at nothing until they are an airline pilot because of a warped view of what the job is. The flying of a small aircraft goes against what they perceive they should be doing. If they are that way inclined I expect flying a piston as a job would be beneath them as they should be an airline pilot.:confused:

A and C

Where in the UK can you hire a twin, PA-34 for £88 and a single, C152 for £35 wet, no landing fees, approach fees etc etc.

[A and C]

I won't comment on the PA34 price as I don't have one of those for lease but the short answer to the question is that you can't get a Cessna 152 in the UK for £35 wet and I doubt if you could get one that you would wan't to fly in the USA for that price.

The problem is that you are only looking at the headline price of a C152 in the USA vs the UK price, for people in the UK there are more costs to take into account to get to and stay in the USA and these have to be added to the cost of the aircraft.

If you take a typical 50 hour block of C152 time in Florida and then add the cost of the airline ticket, cheap hotel room (but not slum), Medical insurance (a must in the USA) and a little for ground transport you will find that the cost of the whole package is almost the same as renting one of my C152's.

The last time I did the numbers (about 3 months ago) I was £0.82/hour cheaper but this will price will move up and down a little with the £/$ rate.

The important thing about hour building is to do the numbers realisticly and include all the costs and weigh the risks, a number of companys in the USA won't refund if you don't get all the flying done over the agreed time, I will refund without question if more than 75% of the time has been used and refund more in the case of bad weather.

My calculations also take into account the costs of landing and parking fees, what I have not done is included tax drawback if you fly abroad, a few trips to France can reduce the cost to well below the cost in the USA.

[scooby79]

The place I got the prices from in the states is OK, the planes are not new but they do. If you are doing an intensive bit of flying to build hours the cost of living in the US is cheaper than the UK. Spend two weeks away from home in the UK flying or go to Los Angeles for two weeks and even including the cost of flights I think you would be better off. It is not free to live in the UK and you will be away from work and home for a shorter period because the weather is better. If the place in the UK is close to home then it may be getting close to being worth staying in this country if you don't need that many more hours.

[A and C]

There are a lot of "I would think" & "cost of living" quotes in your post.

The fact is that using a popular Florida based company for a two week 50 hour package costs about £74.00 per hour when the cost of all the items (airline tickets, insurance, hotels Etc) are taken into account.

What you have not taken into account is that you are still paying all your UK living expences wile you are away, I have not taken this into account because the numbers are not truly avalable and would be to vague.

If you lease my aircraft it would come to you. The short term lease is for (normaly) two weeks of exclusive use, this way you base the aircraft at an airfield near your home and so have no extra accomodation costs.

The total costs using a typical UK GA airfield is £73.12/Hour, you can reduce this a bit if you are uoop north as the landing & parking fees are lower, if you take the aircraft abroad you can reduce the cost by about £9/hour by getting the tax back from the fuel (just fill in a HMCR form HO61, send it to HMRC and a cheque will turn up in about 4-5 weeks).

As for the weather the USA is not as good as the Americans would tell you afternoons in Florida can produce strong winds and thunderstorms in the mid west are very widespread. One of my customers was a bit short on hours due to the weather in August but reurned for a second lease in October and exceeded his expectations by a few hours, unfortunatly no matter were you go flying weather is like buying a pig in a poke.

The big difference between a lot of company's in the USA and myself is that in the USA if you are unfortunate enought to not do the hours they will NOT give you your money back. I will make allowance for bad weather and refund money just as long as when the weather is good you make the most of it.

If you would like to send me your email I will send you the numbers to prove it! (please note I can't send the attachments via pprune)

[Nichibei Aviation]

Well well dear A & C, doing some advertisement work? ;)
With us pilot get everything they need starting from 50£ an hour in USA.

We've also thought to go with a cheap formula operating something in Europe, but VAT kills you anywhere.
If you are operating professionally in Europe, there is no way you can avoid letting your customers pay for VAT (unless you work with partial ownership schemes), otherwise you would be operating illegally. You may encounter problems with your insurance company if any incident/accident happens on one of your aircraft.

Let's not forget to mention the expensive landing fees that you won't pay in the US and the fact that though you are based in the UK, UK students will need to get to your aircraft, be it by own means or by public transportation.

On the other hand you save yourself alot of paperwok (visa+FAA) which saves you alot of time and money.

There are advantages and disadvantages everywhere.

[Artie Fufkin]

Well well dear A & C, doing some advertisement work? ;)
With us pilot get everything they need starting from 50£ an hour in USA.If you can't beat them...

[scooby79]

I think you must be overestimating costs in the US.

Flights: £300
Hotel: £30 x 14 = £420
Get a hotel near the airport so only travel costs are to from London and to from US airport. You would have higher costs in the UK.
Food is cheaper in US so again a saving.
Insurance: £20
Aircraft: 35 x 50 = £1750

If I am missing something we can add it in just let me know, at the moment it is about £50 an hour. Which is £1000 cheaper. The more hours you do the cheaper it gets. If you want links to where I got these prices let me know. You do not need a Visa if you already have a PPL.

[Nichibei Aviation]

Dear Scooby,

I strongly agree with your thoughts except for 5 things:

-without a visa you will not make a footprint on US-soil before they escort you to the return flight back home, no matter if you have a PPL or an astronaut's licence. FAA has no links with customs ;-)

-local transportation should not be underestimated. Not often will you find a hotel next to your airfield, and you'll pay something like 50$ per day if you want to rent a car. (supposing you are younger than 25)

-Insurance: I'm not supposed to give you any numbers but my boss told me the insurance alone costs over 300£ (travel + aircraft liability) for 1 month.

[scooby79]

If you are not obtaining a new rating you do not need a visa, if you are just hour building you are not a student. If your country is not part of the Visa waiver program then you need one regardless. Visas are not that much of an issue anyway. Not sure if you would need one to obtain an FAA PPL from a JAA one, didn't used to as it was just paperwork but that was a few years ago.

[Nichibei Aviation]

Yes indeed you have the visa waiver but it is not applicable to everybody ;)

Also, you don't need to have a PPL to enter the USA with the visa waiver/normal visa.
You can follow instruction under certain circumstances on a traveller's visa/visa waiver.

Edit: Sorry cancel the visa waiver part, I just checked.

[A and C]

If you can fly in the USA for that price go and do it!

However your pricing is unrealistic, the cheapest aivation medical cover avalable for the USA is £62/month, as for airline tickets you might get lucky but my prices are based on what I can get from expedia and tell the whole truth about airport taxes etc.

The flying costs are based on using a well known reputable Florida FBO.

I have done a lot of flying in the USA and have an FAA CPL/IR & FE. When getting these in the USA I had to deal with a number of company's that quoted the rock bottom prices that you have. Two of these company's totaly failed to come up with the goods and if I had not been working in the USA for three months I would have failed in all my flying objectives.

I did eventualy find a reputable company who did a very good deal but the price was about 50% more that the "best deal prices" quoted by the first two company's that I had contacted.

You could get lucky and find a very good deal paying £35/hour and get all your flying done but the law of averages says that the chances of doing so are not much better that 70/30. So if you only get half the flying that you wanted to done in your two week stay the hourly price is not so good.

It was the troubles that I had in the USA that motivated me to offer the service to hoursbuilders who can see past the headline price, the reputable American conpany's offer a service that costs about the same as mine. This is simply because that is what it costs to offer a relable service, we all know that some places cut corners and usualy the worst that happens is the aircraft goes "Tech" for a few days but this can totaly wreck a two week trip to the states and further drive up the cost to the hoursbuilder.

There is an old Arab proverb that say's "cheap is not so cheap" the question is scooby are you going to get lucky or are you going to learn the hard way.............. I know were I would put my bet, but please go take the chance.

[Nichibei Aviation]

Edit: ignore

[shinerrock]

I have been looking for schools in the USA for time building and I have found a school which is offering all instructor ratings for free to build 1500 hrs and walk away with an FAA ATP at the end by instructing for them. I am not sure how good a deal this is or if this would be a good option to take, to further my career. Any feedback is much appreciated.