Getting bullied by PC Logbook Company (Safelog)

[GDSD]

I thought that I'd share my recent experience with a company that provides my flightlog software.
Due to a change in the company's pricing strategy (albeit that this was in the original 'small print' - that I agreed to 3 years ago!), I was faced with the either paying the company's ransom/fee or having my PC logbook face early retirement.
Now, I have been reasonably happy with the product, and when they announced in 2006 that a 'web version' would be available in 2007, I looked forward to this with much anticipation.
January gave way to Feb etc and finally in December, the company announced that they had the web version ready. When I investigated further, I even discovered that a version for Blackberry was due out (although, no guarantees were given).
This was good news, however, I thought that I'd voice my concerns directly to the company - seeking some reassurance.
Here is how I got on:
My original query:
Hi
I’ve been using your software for a little while now. Faced with a charge to continue to use, or rather with the threat of my software becoming ''obsolete'' or ''redundant; I had elected to migrate to another product.
However, you now indicate that you will have a version for Blackberry in Mar 2008.
Like many users, I watched the ''web delivery'' getting pushed and pushed back.
My one single reservation now is that the same thing will happen with this new development.
I know that there can never be any real guarantees; however, parting with cash should guarantee something.
What happens if this is similarly late? Do you just say, ''well that’s software development... tough luck....you’ll have to wait.....there were no guarantees etc''
To the cynic, perhaps you’ll only develop this if enough people sign up - or only start development when you have enough subscribers.
Anyway, these were my thoughts. I’d welcome a response.
Regardless - Merry Christmas and all the best for 2008.
Kind regards
Gordon
Dauntless Software:
Wow. What an unfortunate first.
YOu are the first user to ever migrate away from simplates that we know of. its quite impressive, since we basuically only have two logbook software competitors that are any good, logbook pro and flightlevel, and neither are anywhere nearly as good as we are in price/quality.
a keen observer would have noticed that the web version slipped as we actually did several hundered other improvements to our pc log product in that time instead while our competitors more or less sat on their hands. There are also a few web-only baed products that look good in a short demo until you actually use them to see how limited and crap they really are.
our blackberry software is now in beta. we intend it to be ready in march. i cant and wont guarantee anything. your cynical view is completely unwarranted and bizarre, especially as we#re actually GIVING AWAY the blackberry access during this time.
you should know us better by this point and understand that we take a QUALITY FIRST approach and dont release crap software or software before its time. You should appreciate this.
all the best and happy holidays,
James
CFI/ATP
My response:
Dear James
If you use the same diligence and quality control in software development, as you do with respect to the spelling, grammar and punctuation in the above email - no wonder everything is late!!
Customer service? Quality first? Mmmmmm
Yours
Gordon
Dauntless Software:
Wow, what a jerk you are.
You may consider that in order to give you my previous answer quickly, I wrote my detailed and friendly answer from a small handheld device while at an airport terminal. Instead of being grateful that you get a friendly and honest answer from an expert, you harp on spelling and use this to slander us gratuitously, not to mention as to being so small as to not even return simple holiday greetings.
What a real jerk you are. The internet sure makes you a tough guy, doesn''t it? Furthermore, you keep insisting that our software was ''late.'' This is NONSENSE. We NEVER promised anything at any point, but rather CLEARLY had a disclaimer on ALL of our material about SafelogWeb that the date for that add-on product was subject to change, which it did because we chnaged the order of a few Safelog features.
Really, sir. Your judgment and attention to detail are pathetic, and your response belies somebody who, well, seems like an absolute and total jerk.
Happy holidays.
James
CFI/ATP
FO, 777-200ER
My response:
Dear James
I find your attitude absolutely beyond belief.
As a paying and established customer for your product for the last 3 years, no one should be expected to be treated like this - insulted, marginalised and dismissed out of hand.
I didn’t realise that anyone could have so many ''issues'' and retain a full flight crew medical.
For the New Year may I respectfully suggest the following:
1) Anger Management Classes
2) Customer Service Lessons
3) Enlist the help of a ''Life Coach'' to deal with some of your personal ''issues''
4) Next time - actually pay attention during your CRM lectures - as this may help with your interpersonal skills
The ''spell checker'' on the new Blackberry 8310 may also help you appear less of the idiot that you clearly are.
May 2008 bring you all the health, happiness and joy that you deserve.
Thanks for making me laugh.
Kindest regards
Gordon
Dauntless Software:
I''m sorry, Gordon. Look in the mirrror.
Playing mr. self-righteous, are we? Read YOUR message.
It was your WHOLLY INAPPRORPIATE messages and complete lack of civilty despite the fact that we took considerable time to write you a complete, honest, and polite answer that is the root of the problem. We did this despite that your intention to no longer be our customer.
That you now choose to act like a self-righteous innocent really isn''t cutting it.
Read your message again, in full, which I remind you is a response to a nicely written message for you:
"If you use the same diligence and quality control in software development, as you do with respect to the spelling, grammar and punctuation in the above email - no wonder everythging is late!!
Customer service? Quality first? Mmmmmm"
In other words, you completely ignored the message we sent, and just concentrated on spelling and acted like, well, a jerk.
Happy holidays. Please understand that no further messages from you will be read or replied to.
James
CFI/ATP
FO, 777-200ER
Charming.
So, was I so antagonistic that I deserved such a tirade?
Probably my last email didn't help to diffuse the situation, but I was a paying customer and my logbook (moreover, the data within) is a precious commodity.
All I was seeking was some reassurance.
I'd welcome the forum's comments/thoughts.

[rasobey]

If anything, your original email was (in my opinion) slightly accusatory. A simple question would have been received better, I feel.
Nevertheless, the reply you got was inexcuseable and methinks "James" could do without at least one more customer (i.e. you) now and in the future. Something for him to think about!
For the record, I never read beyond his first reply. That was enough for him to go into my "complete and utter idiot" list.

Edit: I've just read James' reply once again, and it seems he simply lacks communication skills. I now believe that he did mean his response to be friendly, but it came across as something very different.

[Flap 5]

Is this childish nonsense of a post really worth a reply? Maybe it should be in jet blast.

What's wrong with a paper log book? Or a spreadsheet program like Excel?

Of course it doesn't help that you start your letter with 'Hi'. A complaint like this requires a formal letter or formal style of email. Yet you continue with a confrontational attitude as in: 'Do you just say, ''well that’s software development... tough luck....you’ll have to wait.....there were no guarantees etc''.

It is anoying enough when you write proper letters or emails to be ignored by a company. At least they responded to you and in your own style of writing to!

[Kiwiguy]

Never argue with the customer... even if they're wrong.

I suggest you let this run and gather feedback then write to this crowd and alert them to the adverse publicity at PPRuNe from their unprofessional response.

You were clearly pissed off with them, so why did they throw petrol on the flames ?

[GDSD]

Yes - sorry. I should have posted this in Jetblast.:O

[The Trappist]

As a customer you are absolutely correct to express your apprehensions.
The reprehensible, reprobate representative certainly exhibits no professionalism in this matter.
Vote with your feet (check book) and go elsewhere!

[cdtaylor_nats]

After your response about spelling to his quite reasonable answer I think the guy from Dauntless Software gave you at least 1 minute of his time too much. I wouldn't have responded to your comment and would have considered your loss to a lesser product a commercial advantage, you can whine at them.

Software priorities do change usually because customers want different things.

Undoubtedly they will at times have different drivers for updating their software. Sometimes they will be forced to update software in time for legislative change and a software developer must be moved to other more urgent tasks.

Your threat about moving to competitors software without assurances on delivery times would be more realistic if the competitors had guaranteed dates for a Blackberry launch.

[Sobelena]

The use of the term "crap" in a company response to a customer enquiry is entirely inappropriate. To then address the customer as a "jerk" in a follow-up communication simply defies belief. There's great danger in allowing this kind of attitude from a company rep to go unpunished.

I would strongly recommend, purely as a matter of priniciple, for this company to be boycotted in future.

[Engine3firehandle]

Just checked out their website PILOTNAV

And the other product is showing in EDDF - Frankfurt Germany (small airport )
a non excisting runway.
This is the database for safelog ?

There is no RWY 36. There is a RWY 18 for T/O only.
But there has never been an a/c landing in the direction north.

no comment..

[Denti]

I was using the same software, but thanks for making me aware of this kind of customer relations used by that company. I gonna find something else to use now.

[Right Way Up]

Quite humorous that at the end of a heated argument James resorts to w1lly-waving by adding 777-200 f/o. (And an ER at that..........swoon:})

Must be one of those with their cap permanently displayed on their parcelshelf!

[Flap 5]

At least the thread has now ben moved from Remours and News.

It was an extraordinary way to reply to a customer. You didn't help your cause by using such a familiar informal tone to your email but to get replies like that is unforgivable.

I too noticed the 777-200 F/O signature. Eh? What's that all about? Maybe he is trying to tell you he knows your situation. Maybe he should get some manners and get a bit of experience so he can become a captain. Then maybe he will retain a few customers.

[GDSD]

Glad you noticed the 777 thing too - (chortle.....).

Thanks everyone for your comments. CD Taylor also provided a useful insight from the Software Development side of things.

In relpy to Flap 5 - I elected to use an 'informal tone' to try and 'mitigate' the potential conflict - I'll think twice about this in future.

I'll wait a while to see if anyone else has an opinion that they'd like to share and maybe forward this onto the guy.

[Cayman Flyer]

I had a similarly rude and arrogant reply from this company with respect to the product not working on the blackberry (the same model advertised on their website).

I cut my losses and walked away. I can't recommend a product to my customers when the company treats its customers in this manner. :ugh:

[GDSD]

Yes, I also experienced the same thing. I have a Blackberry 8310 and also an older version Blackberry 8707 and the application does not work on either of these - DESPITE the 8310 being 'supported'.


Accepting, that sometimes these applications need some 'bedding' in and despite continuing with some 'fruitless/unresolved' technical support (for about 4 months); I eventually received an email saying, 'we have no idea why it doesn't work!' (sic)

I'll see if I can dig out the email I got from 'Mr Angry - don't you know I fly a 777' as it's also hilariously dismissive.

I didn't bother mailing after a while. Over time, I have just learnt that he's a ****!

[davea0511]

I know this is over a year old, but as a programmer myself I just have to comment, and bump the thread so the software developer will continue to have bad sales due to their highly childish behavior and attacks on their own customers.

This is the kind of bad attitude that gives software developers the bad image of a loser who lives at home eating twinkies and yelling at the monitor when he reads a newbie's take on Star Trek. Such developers exist, but they shouldn't. Don't give them your business. Find a solution provider that treats their customers with respect. I'll tell you personally, it's my job to take crap and return with kindness ... it's the 1st rule of business, and although it totally sucks when I'm being treated unfairly, but I can sleep well at night without the insecurities that looser programmers have who bite their customers back.

I find it nothing short of amazing how many people think that GDSD kind of had this sort of an egregious reply coming to him. I'm not a pilot, so I don't know how things are run in that industry ... maybe and eye-for-an-eye attitude prevails, but I know in every other industry only a fool gives spite for spite.

Especially if he/she wants to stay in business. Makes me think I should start developing for that industry ... obviously there are customers to be siphoned from lame developers like PC Logbook.

[Kapmep]

I strongly recommend that anyone who is looking for a pilot logbook program avoid Dauntless/Safelog. I downloaded their Software FAA program just to check it out. Thankfully, I didn't give them any money beforehand. After downloading and installing the software, it wouldn't work. It gave me a long, complicated explanation of some mysterious error. I went to their recommended web source for support, and I got a long, complicated proforma answer that was of no help. I removed the program, reinstalled it, restarted the computer, etc. Still, the software wouldn't work. From what I can see at their support site, many people are having the same kinds of problems. And the bottom line of their explanation is that the problem is the customer's computer, not their software.

I wrote them a complaint by email, explaining the problem and telling them that I was going to give up and go to another company rather than spend hours and hours trying to make their software work. I got back a very rude, insulting response from some yahoo answering their support problems. The funniest part was that he claimed to be a captain flying Boeing 777s. I guess he was moonlighting on the help desk at Dauntless....

Do yourself a favor -- go to another company. If you decide to try out the Safelog software, be sure you don't give them any money before you check it out. Judging from the attitude of this company, you'd likely never get a refund.

[Loose rivets]

Do we Brits now call it an ATP?

I took an ALTP, which at some stage became an ATPL. I also took an ATP, but that was in Texas, i.e. a US license.


There is no doubt, in a small business one has to be formally polite to the customers. You can call customers a jerk if you want to, but odds are it'll cost sales, and a lot of them.

[Milo Minderbinder]

This thread relates to events from five years ago. Just what is its relevance now? Companies and people change.
Unless anyone has any up-to-date experience of them, this thread is now pointless

[Capn Bloggs]

Unless anyone has any up-to-date experience of them, this thread is now pointless
Reads as though Kapmep (3 posts up) has?

[Milo Minderbinder]

Not convinced
new account
seems a strange topic for a first post

Just locating the old thread is an achievement in itself which seems unlikely

[Kapmep]

Obviously this is a long-term problem. The situation I described happened within the last few days.

[Tom!]

Well, I also use Safelog (for about 2 years now) and I never had a problem with Dauntless or the program. My support queries were answered within 24 hours and very helpful.

[Boratt]

I have been using Dauntless' various pieces of software for many years. Never had issues. Always got a speedy and kind response from the helpdesk.

I think if the OP had started off in a kinder tone, things could have taken a completely different route. However, I was disappointed at seeing James' response. That is no way to treat a customer. I hope he no longer works there......

[quietflyer]

Read for yourself! Apparently he got a CHUCKLE out of my question!

> Your Original Question / Comment was:
>
> i removed my carryover times from the legacy part and placed them in categories. I have looked through my logs multiple times and everything seems to be correct but when i add SE Helicopter and Multi Engine Helicopter times the amount does not equal my total aircraft time. Additionally my total time does not match when I add up the other categories.
> A helpdesk issue that you submitted has been responded to as follows:
>
>
> As it takes us an extraordinarily long time to look into such issues and because nearly all such reports are caused by user error, we ask that you provide a VERY VERY VERY VERY specific set of steps that we can use to try to understand and duplicate your problem. Please avoid generic terms such as ''any.'' Please give us a very concrete example that we can see in your logbook so that our team can look into it.
>
> Thanks
> Steve
> CFI
>
>
>
>
>
Okay let's see if this is specific enough for you if not please let me know! I would hope you are familiar with your logbook system!

I entered times in the log those time consisted or contained times of Single and Multi Engine helicopters which are the only two times of helicopters that exists! Ones with one engine or two engine! The SE helicopter time plus the ME helicopter time should equal total Helicopter time correct? Why doesn't it?


MY RESPONSE


Are you a small operation? I do not appreciate the sarcasm something like that could end up being shown to my coworkers and friends! It could also be something that makes me go to my competitors software!

Sent from my iPhone


SECOND QUESTION I ASKED

Your Original Question / Comment was:

In safelogweb is it possible to enter coordinates in the standard aviation format? N00 00 00 instead of in the decimal format 00.0000 I am helicopter pilot and frequently fly to unregistered points all of our coordinates are provided in n00 00.00 format this is my only major Hangul with Safelogweb as it is very time intensive converting the coordinates!

"Standard aviation format" heh.

Always gives me a chuckle when people think they are doing something in a ''standard'' format. There are almost as many ''standard'' formats in aviation as there are pilots.

That said, in Safelog as far as I know you can enter lat/lon in any number of formats on most platforms and the system will convert it to it''s own. Please give it a try. If we''re missing some particular format (i think we support about 9 different formats now), please let us know and we''ll look into adding it.

Thanks

MY RESPONSE
Well let me state it this way when I put it in the format I have used in every single aviation GPS EVER including Garmin, Loran And the Honeywell FMS it seems to be pretty standard! I have tried it and it does not work unless I am doing it in the wrong way. Obviously I tried it or I would not have wasted my time putting in the ticket!

[flyboyqw]

Not much has changed. I posted a review here:
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/554096-safelog-pilot-logbook-review.html