View Full Version : CX B-Scale Check and Trainers
Lost_Cause
30th Dec 2007, 04:39
There's a lot of talk on this Forum about the pros and cons of being an AOA member. Those in the "pro camp" are quick to point out that "if you don't like it, join the GC and do something about it". Is it really that simple? I would like to bring up a point that seems to have received very little attention on this Forum... regarding AOA members taking up Check and Training positions.
I have been an AOA member for as long as I have worked for this company, and have generally been in support of the AOA leadership (until now), and those who have stepped forward to help out on the GC for the greater benefit of the membership.
I can think of various reasons in favor of joining the AOA, but I can also think of various reasons why some might not want to. I can say one think with certainty though... considering what's going on in the AOA right now, I am about as close as I have ever been to resigning. My efforts are fruitless as long as we have GC members helping out with the company expansion, while we are apparently trying to negotiate a better package for all.
Recently, while negotiations were ongoing (and thereafter), many AOA members, and more disappointingly, GC members have stepped forward to help Cx out with their expansion plans by volunteering to help out with the training task. This is a complete contradiction in terms. Can one be working for both sides while this battle rages on? We are about as close as we've ever been to forcing our hand on the Company, and yet there's guys that still step forward to help them out. I don't understand the benefit to the membership... especially at this time.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with people becoming Trainers, and helping out for the greater benefit of the crew community. However, in my opinion, now would have been a perfect time to hold off, and thereby force the Company to pay A-scale salaries for ALL captains at least (a goal for many years)... and possibly a better offer for all crew. How could we let this opportunity pass us by? They are currently prepared to extend all A-scale Captains on A-scale conditions. I believe it would not have taken much to force them to pay A-scale salaries for at least the B-scale captains. It was not that long ago that the company was "apparently" prepared to pay exactly that. How much would it have taken now??
I think we seriously need to consider a training ban... at least until they come back with a worth-while offer. If this had been the case while negotiations were going on, I doubt whether we would even be in a position now where we have to talk about Contract Compliance, or Industrial Action.
Like I said, I have been a staunch supporter of the AOA for many years, but I have now come to a crossroads as to whether I can continue to support them. Especially while many AOA members, and some of those serving on the GC, are just out to look after their own interests... at the mercy of everyone else.
Thanks to them, many of us get an insulting 3% kick in the groin... and the imposition of COS08. In other words, we are now in a position where, amongst other things, all of us will have to accept flying freighters on much reduced terms to what we have now... accept extension beyond 55 on B-scale terms, when others are getting it on A-scale... and accept the fact that our junior crew will have their promotions delayed by years.
Please AOA, don't send me anything more on the impending pilot shortage... when we have the power to create that pilot shortage right now "from within"!
but I just want to give something back...
They are "sitting on the fence" or "having a bet both ways"
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I hope they enjoy their 8% after tax, sitting in the Right Seat as PM 90% of the time and all that Paper work.
Must be a drag doing that AND giving the AOA GC 100%. ( not )
All for one and one for me.
Fenwicksgirl
31st Dec 2007, 01:56
Oh and just love the roster complaints that they come up with!!!!
"But they said it would all get better.." hee heee
After spending so long in the right seat, why would someone volunteer to help out the company, just to be sent back to the right seat 90% of the time again, playing the F.O role?????? Paperwork, ERAS, briefiings, all for 8% in the pocket!!!!!!! Aaaagggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!
DexyDogg
31st Dec 2007, 12:00
Nice posting, Lost Cause.
Unfortunately, while the few responding are in agreement (for good reason), your forum name is sadly accurate.
It is hard to understand why we, as as a pilot group (and our 'union'), seem to have become just as much part of the problem rather than part of the solution...
One would think that with all of the current issues, such as CoS 08 being imposed, a pathetic pay rise, the seniority list being ambiguous at best, DEFOs pushing more senior S/Os back for upgrade, and RA 65 (not to mention 3 Man to Europe) that we would be more willing to pull together to look out for our respective careers.
PanZa-Lead
31st Dec 2007, 13:40
Check and training have always helped out the company and they are the ones that could enforce any change in the company.if they could be relied apon to help out. They trained ASL pilots to take our cockpit positions. They trained B Scale pilots to take over cheap cockpit positions. They will now train C Scale pilots and so on. They fly freighters. Everything we have fought against they have willingly gone against the pilot body. If no B Scaler had gone in to Check and Training until A Scale salaries were paid to all it would be a different company now. But now we have B Scalers whining about A Scale pilots whilst they flock into training to train C Scalers. Go figure:ugh:
Lost_Cause
31st Dec 2007, 22:05
PanZa-Lead,
If no B Scaler had gone in to Check and Training until A Scale salaries were paid to all it would be a different company now.
Well said! If these guys stopped for a moment and thought about what damage they are doing to our conditions of service, they would stop volunteering. We have the power to stop this company in it's tracks. All we have to do is not help out with the training/expansion task... but if we do, make sure it's on nothing less then A-scale terms! Period!
What gets me is that almost every one of these new Trainers said "I will never go into training...ever........I hate the damn Company"
But later on change their minds after justifying it to themselves as "nothings ever going to improve here so I might as well go into training and look after myself first"
SELFISH ATTITUDE
So I hope you enjoy the extra cash :ugh::ugh::ugh:
Five Green
1st Jan 2008, 15:38
Like most things this issue is not so cut and dried.
Yes, if nobody came forward to train it might put some pressure on the company. However if I was in management I would then hire direct entry trainers on the grounds that I cannot fill the position from within. While we battle it out in the courts the problem then goes away.
Another HUGE issue with the training er sorry, checking system, is that it is used as both a discipline and political weapon against the pilot body. Having more reasonable minded AOA members on the training team can only ease that threat, or at the very least bring it into the light of day. Take the current situation with the SOs. Lets get some of the AOA trainers looking into this, however clandestine they need to do it. Here is the perfect issue to highlight why it is important to have AOA members on the training board.
Ask any FO what his biggest concern (other than the lack of a pay rise) in BBS is, and they will tell you ERAS reports, command assessment or if lucky enough to get a course; the command course itself.
So we actually need the training roster full of AOA members so that we can bring some reality in to the training system. It is possible to maintain your morals and be a trainer some have managed it !!!
Peace out
FG
Westcoastcapt
1st Jan 2008, 18:44
Happy New Year everyone,
What is it that many of you don't get. Pilots flocked to CX in droves in 93 and readily accepted B scale wages. In turn, ASL pilots accepted reduced freighter scales, further driving down the pay and benefits. The Headland hotel is full of recruits accepting DEFO positions at further reduced pay. Now, I'll bet that there are pilots willing to accept the forther reduced COS 08 scales.
CX will only respond to people leaving, not joining!!!! Do you finally get it.
Liam Gallagher
1st Jan 2008, 22:02
So when are you leaving??
Oh.... you are happy here....its all ASL, B scalers.check trainers who are fault?... anybody but me....
Clearly, by default you must be an A-scaler... why should you care... the chosen generation... watched the other other A-scalers leave at 55; then A scales extended to 65, protected by your buddies in C&T and the 3rd floor... nose in the trough....
Ps Happy new year to you as well....
Westcoastcapt
1st Jan 2008, 22:36
Liam, I'll go at 55. I have a life.
Regards
Liam Gallagher
2nd Jan 2008, 03:04
Good luck to you..
However, bare in mind everyone says they will retire at 55, normally claiming "to have a life", the reality is that most stay..... so I take yours and anyone's comment about retirement with a pinch of salt.
Further, why retire on your 55th birthday exactly? It's not like our respective pension funds require us to work through to 55; once passed a certain number of years there is no penalty to leave early. Why not leave early to enjoy more of this "life"?
Westcoastcapt
2nd Jan 2008, 04:19
Liam,
Nice to see you amended your final salutation. It certainly doesn't offend me but clearly illustrates the level of dialogue I'm dealing with. Difficult to take you seriously. Nuff said.
Regards
You must admit Westcoast Capt than your view of the CX Life is a bit different from the rest of us struggling here in HK.
And to suggest we all give up hope until people start walking is exactly the attitude management love.
CC WILL hurt the company, they struggle to get the task done now, so what do you think life will be like under CC for them.
It's not going to hurt to give it a try.
Westcoastcapt
2nd Jan 2008, 05:42
The sad reality is that in order to take any action, everyone must act. Unfortunately, approximately 50% of the pilots belong to the AOA and so the others are free to do as they wish. Yet, if anything is achieved, they still reap the same benefits. I think it is unfair to chastise a member who doesn't comply, for whatever reason, and these others go scot free. We've been there, it failed dramatically, so we aren't going there again. Anonymity is a powerful force, but it is amazing how people change when they have to identify themselves.
In order to accomplish anything, the pilot body first has to agree on what it wants in the first place. Watching many of you slag each other makes it obvious that it will probably never happen. The issues of those on basings differ from those still in Hong Kong. New joiners want different things compared to those nearing retirement. It is easy to berate A scale pilots, but let's remember many said you would do our jobs for lesser pay. Now, there are those doing the same thing to you. We all think our issues are the most important and someone should be trying to resolve them. For example, Hong Kong pilots just received 13th month, yet those on bases didn't. Certainly a big issue, but I don't see those in Hong Kong demanding change.
Now, if the GC of the AOA is much like what I have just described, no wonder they are getting nowhere.
The best solution is to just do your job. CX is being choked by the contracts they have imposed. They haven't a clue what to do, but we are helping their position by fighting among ourselves. It will take time to facilitate change, but change is indeed coming.
Correct me if I'm wrong please..................
They increased the basic based salary by 1/12 thus ALWAYS paying you a 13th month?
Isn't that so?
Jn14:6
2nd Jan 2008, 09:32
ACMS,
Yes,you are wrong. Only 'B' scale F/O salaries were increased for basees, the rest took a large salary cut!
jonathon68
2nd Jan 2008, 13:51
A ban on people taking up check and training positions is an excellent idea. However, we require clear leadership and direction in this action.
Our President and Committee have remained completely silent on any issue of contract compliance, despite a growing rise of discontent from the AOA ranks for action.
Personally the breaking point for me with regard to training/checking etc was when two senior AOA Committee members went into training earlier in 2007. Having held off for "industrial reasons" for a while, I thought "f*ck it", if the Committee are doing it then why should not I?
I am now in T&C for lack of guidance from my Union Leadership.
I believe that we should have been in contract compliance for a long while already.
The 744F operation survived last year thanks to a small number of people (guys who had the right to refuse) agreeing to fly the freighter. However, there was no direction from our Committee to not "fly the freighter", so I can hardly blame the guys I know who went ahead and kept the CXF operation afloat. This is a bitter pill for me to swallow, since I spent over 9 years on the -400 and continually refused to fly the Freighter. Ultimately this ended up with me having to do some b*ll****ting to my CP to permit my eventual categorisation "A" to get a command. My individual stand in this situation got me and the Association nowhere!
I have emailed the current AOA President (cc his Committees) on and off for years regarding my desire for action. However, they have preferred to go with a softly-softly/go-with-the-flow approach. Personally I believe this approach is completely wrong. However, I accept that I am only one of approx 1270 members so I can merely state my view to the Committee (via email and personal approach etc) and then vote accordingly. I will then stand with everyone for what we have agreed to do. That is the way the system works and I will live with it.
Five Green. I like your point about having the AOA trojan horse march into the "training camp". I assure you that there is not an official AOA "black-op" to do so. However, the realities of CX generation geo-politics means that the latest generation of Training Captains are very well attuned to the career frustrations of our S/O's, F/O's, plus themselves and can be expected to perform with the frustrations typical of their generation.
ACMS. You remind me of how I was in 1999 and 2001. Good for you, I share your frustrations etc. However, the way to have any effect upon this situation is too....
Email your committee. I have been doing this for years, but please join me and try to get their attention. With the exception of maybe NC they generally don't read this forum. (BTW... NC, good work mate, like your input)
Offer your help. CX has a staff of full time professionals with an almost unlimited budget. We have a small bunch of semi-educated pilot volunteers who have lives, wives, kids, rosters etc. Please find a Committee mentor and offer to help him, do some of his research or help write up some research for him etc. Failing that, take a flight off his roster so that he has the time to work for you (for no pay).
Recruit more members. This is a hard one when we have a "silent" committee while faced with so many problems. Current membership is approximately 59% out of 2200 pilots. The 2008 recruitment target is 250+ pilots (150 F/O's, 100 S/O's of whom approx 35-40 are Cadets). So we can expect approximately 20 new joiners per month next year. (Assuming any of them actually tun up to start their new job!) However, this means that in order to increase our membership above 59% we have to outpace the level of recruitment, say 25-30 new members per month to make any headway against 20 new joiners. One factor in our favour at the moment is the very high resignation rate. In 2007 I believe we lost 86 pilots against 230 recruits.
Be ready for action. While we encourage/wait-hope-pray etc for our Committee to get ready to start leading us, we should be ready for conflict. I hope that this year is the year where something happens. Personally, I have a contingency fund in place for my family. My household is also well trained with regard to answeing telephones etc. Also crew control etc are lulled into a false sense of security re answering crew direct/responding to reserve call-outs etc.An Army without leadership is a rabble waiting to be massacred.
What we desperately need is a Leader and a Committee who will take us foward in some sort of action, however limited. Rather than just "slagging off" individual members who have perhaps gone into training etc, we should be calling for Leadership into Industrial action
Numero Crunchero
2nd Jan 2008, 14:35
Well said.
A bit on union politics....the general direction of the GC is driven by the executive. I believe that the majority of the GC want to go in the direction espoused on PPRUNE. The question was, is and always will be, what do the majority of the membership want? It is very easy to ignore PPRUNE, emails etc as being the 'squeaky wheels'.
Words or action?
I can understand and empathise with westcoast's view that CX will only react to people leaving. Call me an optimist but I still believe action will work. If nothing else it gives our discontent a focus.
Membership % too low
The recent success the FAU had in delaying the unilateral changes to their medical CoS shows that action will work, IMO. And I think their membership % is not dissimilar to ours. So maximum membership is not necessary.
Fear factor
Do pilots really believe that CX would fire 50 people again? No one is that stupid ( I think!) Do you really want to live your life in fear of what CX might do if you don't continue to bend over?
A suggested way forward.
We have two problems to deal with: the AOA and CX.
The AOA
There will be another vote for GC members and for the position of President in a little over 6 months. Now is the time to search your conscience and decide whether it is time you gave some of your time. It is no longer a HKG based job. In fact in the 06-07 GC it was over 50% based and commuters. So don't use your commuting or basing as an excuse to pass the baton to another....if not you, then who?
If we have a good turnout of GC nominations we can vote for those members most likely to represent our own point of views. Similarly if we can get 2 or more nominations for president then at least we can be sure to have someone that represents the majority's view.
CX
Contract compliance will work if all pilots do it. What won't work is it being done piece meal by some and not others. I know this is not a popular idea but I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008). The difference between a compliant workforce and a contract compliant workforce will be more stark than a gradual transition from individual to collective contract compliance.
A new GC/President will have a more powerful industrial weapon to present to the membership - contract compliance. It is hardly going to get anyone fired and there really is no excuse for NOT carrying out contract compliance.
We need to work together on this...no basings vs HKG vs LEP vs KA vs Freighter etc. There is no sub group of pilots that hasn't been screwed by past actions/inactions of management. So, lets start planning ahead...
Westcoastcapt
2nd Jan 2008, 14:57
Good morning everyone,
No ACMS, you are wrong. Our salary did not change to accommodate the lack of the 13th month. So now that you are joining the ranks of the informed, perhaps you will make this a priority issue? You seem so adamant in rectifying the wrongs.
Do I think that CX would fire some more pilots, yes they will. They are so frustrated with the current situation, but haven't a clue what to do. Everytime their hands are tied, it is like poking the dog with a sharp stick. It bites back.
I think the real turning point will be the move to onshoring. Based labour laws are very specific and the courts have no qualms about enforcing them. Wrongful dismisal comes with a real price.
So, no gentlemen, I have no interest in contract compliance nor do many of my colleagues. As I have said on many occasions, many talk a great line when they are anonymous, yet turn and run when the chips are down.
Instead, why don't you focus your efforts on returning the 13th month to the based pilots.
Cheers!
NC,
I don't usually have any problems with anything you say but this
" I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008). "
is totally wrong. The more people that practice unofficial contract compliance, the more the pressure will build up quickly. Give CX time to train more crews and get their act together the less effect it will have. Unofficial CC means that talks are still an option.
Your statement seems to intend to make the present GC as ineffective as possible.
Thanks!!:confused:
Busdude
2nd Jan 2008, 19:30
Without giving away too much anonymity, I was one of the original B Scalers of '93. I have years of military check and training and as a professional pilot feel the need to advance my career. However, as one of the original B Scalers, I will never advance my career professionally within Cathay. Why any B Scaler would ever join the C&T department is beyond me. Not only are B Scalers offering their services at a reduced price, they are now offering their C&T services at an even lower price. Why would you take time from your family to write ERAS, have a G day limited roster and put up with extra C&T meetings to earn less than an A Scale line Captain? Please don't come up with the "I'm a professional", "Want to give something back" routine. Want to give something back? Donate your time to the Air Cadets, they would love to hear from you. Want to be a professional? Let the S/O program the box if it's your sector. Teach him/her something you've learned over the years.
In my view CC is the way to go, especially when it involves voluntary duties. I was a commuter for a few years, and in the name of contract compliance lost time with my family only to watch some other guy take the pieces of silver. I would do it again because it was the right thing to do. I just wish others would look beyond themselves.
Gotta go.
Westcoast: That's why I said correct me if I'm wrong bud.
I wasn't sure of the position of US based A scale salaries BUT I do know for a FACT that Oz based B scale salaries were adjusted up by 1/12 th to allow for the 13th month loss. This happened about 5 to 6 years ago if I remember correctly. Maybe NC could confirm this?
Anyway there is a lot more at stake than giving Based crew their 13th month, that's only 1 of a lot of issues.
Sqwak7700
3rd Jan 2008, 02:40
Without giving away too much anonymity, I was one of the original B Scalers of '93. I have years of military check and training and as a professional pilot feel the need to advance my career. However, as one of the original B Scalers, I will never advance my career professionally within Cathay. Why any B Scaler would ever join the C&T department is beyond me. Not only are B Scalers offering their services at a reduced price, they are now offering their C&T services at an even lower price. Why would you take time from your family to write ERAS, have a G day limited roster and put up with extra C&T meetings to earn less than an A Scale line Captain? Please don't come up with the "I'm a professional", "Want to give something back" routine. Want to give something back? Donate your time to the Air Cadets, they would love to hear from you. Want to be a professional? Let the S/O program the box if it's your sector. Teach him/her something you've learned over the years.
In my view CC is the way to go, especially when it involves voluntary duties. I was a commuter for a few years, and in the name of contract compliance lost time with my family only to watch some other guy take the pieces of silver. I would do it again because it was the right thing to do. I just wish others would look beyond themselves.
Gotta go.
Well said guy.
And about CC, it begins when you get hired at a company. I don't care where you work, I don't care where you live. It is simple math people. :ugh:
If you don't defend your contract from day one, how do you expect to hold on to it? Any work you do above and beyond the call of duty hurts you and your fellow collegues. It is that simple.
If you need the Union to tell you that you have to start contract compliance you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. You think UPS guys are now answering their phone on their days off in case the company needs "their help". You think they are coming in on their days off to test out the new RT/PC in the sim FOR FREE! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: ...blood and brains but still ... :ugh::ugh::ugh:
Do you sometimes feel like you are in a twilight-zone episode? If you do, you will see me standing next to you with a bewildered look on my face... :hmm:
Know your contract - Period :D
Numero Crunchero
3rd Jan 2008, 04:18
I didn't make the present GC ineffective - it just is! What have the GC achieved in the last 18months? A revote on RP07 when it didn't go the way the GC wanted it, and CoS08. Like 1993, 1994, 1999 and 2001, CX management is just imposing(CoS08) what they want after appearing to give their position an air of 'legitimacy' after 'appearing' to negotiate.
BusyB its not a personal attack - I was no more effective on the GC than I am now off it. The AOA executive thinks it is smarter and wiser than the membership and will continue to ignore the majority wishes; the majority of the membership and the majority of the GC. The AOA executive think they are doing what is best for their membership....but that is not their decision to make. The AOA is supposed to be a democracy. It is time it started acting like one.
You're still missing the oint of what I said. By telling guys to save CC until sometime in the future just gives CX the out they need to cover up their shortages NOW.
HNY
willnotcomply
3rd Jan 2008, 12:19
NC, you usually make alot of sense. I cannot see any valid reason whatsoever to delay CC. Personally, I have been maintaining CC from day one through good times and bad. Why would one do anything different? I have never needed the AOA for personal direction re CC. Are people so stupid as to wait for the AOA to ring a bell?
Shooting yourself in the foot comes to mind. We will just have to wait until 2016 for B scales to become A scale. Sorry not the P-fund though.
Numero Crunchero
3rd Jan 2008, 23:20
BusyB,
seems my idea is 'controversial';-) It was seriously considered in 2000 but majority rules (mostly).
WNC, sorry, not drinking. Some of my ideas are obviously 'out there'!
jed_thrust
4th Jan 2008, 01:37
NC, rarely do I disagree with your (even out there) ideas, but I'm with the others on CC now.
Helping them now is like accepting a roster change that helps you get home earlier and helps them out of a hole today, helping them defer a particular mess to tomorrow's crew.
Hey, what do I know?!
Lost_Cause
7th Jan 2008, 18:18
However if I was in management I would then hire direct entry trainers on the grounds that I cannot fill the position from within.
Maybe you're right... maybe that's what management would have done. But they would have had to weigh the costs of doing so first. From a financial perspective, they might have considered it cheaper to just offer a better deal to the boys from within (A-scale?). From an industrial perspective, I highly doubt that the company would be silly enough to re-visit the mistakes of the past, and start another ASL. So on second thought, I don't agree with you.
So we actually need the training roster full of AOA members so that we can bring some reality in to the training system. It is possible to maintain your morals and be a trainer some have managed it !!!
On this point, I somewhat agree with you (initially)... we do need AOA members on the Training Team. But what we didn't need was for guys to continually volunteer their services to the company while we were trying to negotiate a better deal. By doing so, you were only undermining the efforts of the negotiators. Instead of empowering the AOA, you reduced their ability to negotiate. Why could you not have waited until an acceptable deal was negotiated, and then have gone in to fix the training system? Win-win? Look at what we have now... thanks to you guys taking the pressure off the company! I wonder if all the FO's and SO's will see the benifit you guys have provided to the training system... while they wait years longer for their promotions?
From a moral perspective... I wonder how one sleeps at night, knowing full well that they are responsible to a large extent for the imposition of COS08? It's a war... you can't fight for both sides!
Liam Gallagher
7th Jan 2008, 21:18
NC raises an interesting point......
I know this is not a popular idea but I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008).
I think NC is proposing taking CC to another level. CC would be a bargaining chip up for sale. The GC would turn compliance on and off and hope to see a marked resultant change in OTP/crewing. NR would then have to decide what price he will pay for such compliance.
The advantages would be, CC would be short lived, a week perhaps. I noticed in 2001 MSS was most effective in the first few days and then guys lost interest as the "policing" of compliance started to be divisive amongst the Pilot Body and the Company's Countermeasures started to bite (interviews in the Headland post-landing anyone?). Further it would be interesting to publish the dates when CC is on or off and see if the travelling public adjusted it's travel plans.
The disadvantages are that CC may make no difference to the operation and NR decides he can live with it.... bluff is called... Guys like WNC, who have been in CC "from day one" will find it difficult to turn on the co-operation. Equally, should an agreement be reached with NR he will have paid for your co-operation and will expect it... again WNC would struggle here...
WNC; if you have been in CC since day one... why did you join CX.. and how many aircraft have delayed or grounded...??
LC
If no B scalers would have taken training to start with then all of you would be on A scale as simple as that period.
There is much fuss surrounding CC but I think you will find in most airlines pilots will only go as far as what the contract dictates, ie CC is a case of operations normal. I get the impression that CX has survived on good will for many many years.
There is much fuss surrounding CC but I think you will find in most airlines pilots will only go as far as what the contract dictates, ie CC is a case of operations normal.
You must have read my mind.:eek:
It should NOT be, bend over backwards, then if negotiation fails, work within the contract!!!!
Has the CX pilot body really been taking it up the arse that long? :(
MAX:cool:
Yep...........And a few decide to "help themselves" by working G days and taking training postions.
Liam Gallagher
8th Jan 2008, 10:21
Do you work for CX?
CXtreme
8th Jan 2008, 12:28
Yep...........And a few decide to "help themselves" by working G days and taking training postions.
Expat = Mercenary in this outfit
90% of the expats worry about Me , Myself and I.
No camaraderie here, that's why it is so easy for the company to divide and conquer the union and rule the rest by fear and intimidation.
missingblade
8th Jan 2008, 12:28
I have very real fears regarding the lack of information and clarity about many things. THE FIRST thing the AOA should be doing is playing watchdog. There are a lot of claims going around that are not being verified - and the AOA should be doing that for us.
Things like seniority, dismissals, bypass, DEFO holding SO's back, tax issues, training success / failure etc etc. These things should not be secrets. Transparency from management is required. I constantly hear people go on about our contract being violated - If this is true it has to stop. Once we are able to enforce our contract at least we will know where we stand. I flew with an FO recently who assumed he will be on COS 08 from Jan 01. He did not even realize the implications. If guys are that ignorant then it leaves the door open for the company to arbitrarily change things as they wish. If everybody rolls over like that it is a matter of time before we have Age 65 in HKG and bypass pay and seniority all deleted from our contracts.....
I say start at the beginning ie: We need to be able to defend what we have before we even try and fight for something more.
CXtreme: so where do you stand then? I need to know so I can make a judgement call on the value of your opinion.
Are you one of the guys/girls that look after themselves?
CXtreme
8th Jan 2008, 14:55
I joined the union a month after I joined the company ,paid my 5% when it was asked for.....
Now, I look after myself, that's why I have an interview in Germany later this month.
rick.shaw
9th Jan 2008, 06:22
Nothing much else to say apart from you have to be pretty selfish to go into training and help these mismanagers out of a bind that THEY got the airline into. Penny pinching is already costing a huge amount in Gday payments and overtime. Keep your phone in your pants. They are running on goodwill. Soon that will run out even moreso.
Lost_Cause
15th Jan 2008, 04:22
Numero Crunchero,
In response to a previous post of yours that appears to have been removed, I would just like to comment. You say "Why blame checker and trainers....why not blame me and every other FO that upgraded to captain, every SO that upgraded to FO, every DEFO for taking a job, every B scaler for joining, every A scaler for allowing B scales to be introduced without action etc etc"
Generally I agree with most of your comments on this forum. However, with regards to this post where you call for a stop in blaming individual groups, such as the B-scale Check & Training volunteers, for our current problems; I could not disagree more.
Firstly, to suggest that all groups within the worldwide pilot body should be held equally responsible in trying to solve our internal problems has previously been proven to be a totally flawed concept. I don't understand how we can still expect our problems to be solved by the DEFO's and DESO's that have nothing to do with our situation? These individuals should not be called upon to take a stand on our behalf when we don't even have the balls to fight our own fight.
Secondly, to suggest that SO's and FO's are as much to blame by taking promotions as these guys are for taking the C & T positions is wrong as well. Why do pilots generally join an airline such as Cx? Is it not because of career aspirations to eventually achieve a command through a normal and excepted seniority based promotion system? This is normal career progression. On the other hand, taking a C & T position, is completely different. It is not based on a seniority system; it is not equally available to all; and most importantly, it is completely voluntary. It is a personal choice to help the company out in exactly the same way that people choose to (or not) answer their phones, work on G-days, or fly the freighter. Definitely not helpful to our cause in the current environment.
The simple truth is that if people stopped taking these Training positions, it would probably put the ball back in our court. It would do more for our cause then asking individuals to not answer their phones. However, let's do everything we can. Don't voluntarily answer your phone when not required to do so; don't voluntarily work on G-days; and don't voluntarily help with the company expansion in Check & Training. The company is desperate... they need us for these training positions in the same way they need us on G-days.
It is our responsibility to stand firm and set the bar as high as possible in defense of future attacks on our COS. We should do this by not helping out in any way shape or form. If the company calls you with a request to work on a G-day; ask them how much it would cost to cancel the flight... and set you price accordingly. If the company calls to request your services in the Training department; ask them how much they are paying the extendees... and set you price accordingly. Better yet, don't answer any of their calls/requests. Make them negotiate with the AOA. This would benefit everyone in the long run by us setting the bar at the highest possible level. Don't take the job at the lowest common denominator. They desperately need us. Therefore, we should not volunteer for any more Training positions until they are willing to negotiate a better package for all.
Further, is the C&T position not considered a management position as well? Who is imposing these inferior Conditions Of Service on us? Is it not the management? How can we join them in their cause, while at the same time desperately trying to protect our position? By indirectly putting pressure on the company, we can empower the AOA negotiators. Until such time, volunteering our services to the company will only serve to further degrade our position.
The one thing that I do agree on is that we should stand united, and move forward together. So let's unite in one common direction. Their has to be a plan. Currently there appears to be no guidance from the AOA what so ever. However, there is an overwhelming call from the membership to "not" help the company out. Let's do this together... everyone.
It is not too late to get improvements. It has been said before... but they are surviving only on our goodwill.
willnotcomply
15th Jan 2008, 08:39
There should not be one B scale pilot in CT under the current package IMO. All of these people are driven by ego and ladder climbing alone. This group have successfuly weakened the bargaining position for themselves and the entire pilot body as a result of self interest. Alot of the culprits were the "big voices"(I stress voices) in 2001.They also tend to complain the most. A great opportunity lost.
Good posts from the gentlemen above:ok:
FlexibleResponse
15th Jan 2008, 09:33
Dr Helen Smith Forensic Psychologist
Knoxville, Tennessee, United States
The Psychology of Confrontation
Have you ever noticed how frightened people are of confrontation--even if it just means the slightest bit of displeasure from another person? Normally, these non-confronters think of themselves as "very good and moral people" and believe the reason they do not confront is to save another's feelings. But in truth, they are so afraid of causing themselves a moment's displeasure, that they will do anything to get out of being direct with another person.
"Everybody wants someone else to do their dirty work"
I just looked up my dictionary to check the spelling of CAREER for another thread and found something interesting:--
CAREERIST N Person who seeks advancement by any possible means
Fits these guys quite well don't you think? :D
willnotcomply
25th Jan 2008, 16:25
megalomania/megalomaniac;the belief that you are very powerful and important. Fits the CX C&T department nicely, don't you think?
jonathon68
26th Jan 2008, 10:24
What does our Union Leadership say about members taking up Check and Training positions, or guys extending, or joining on CoS 2008?
Nothing, so what's your problem?
What we should be concentrating on, is getting a clear message from our Union GC regarding what is expected of members.
If you think that a ban on check and trainers is called for (or other forms of contact compliance) then communicate this officially to your GC (call, email or write-in asap), and encourage all of your mates to do the same.
"Slagging-off" individuals on a public forum is a waste of time. Also blaming other groups of pilots (extendees, trainers, new joiners etc) for not fighting your battles, is naive. The only way issues such as a "C&T ban" would ever come in to play is through very clear leadership from the AOA GC. Such leadership is currently "missing in action".
If you are frustrated with our position as CX pilots, then focus your efforts on communicating your views and ideas to the AOA leadership. Our biggest problem at the moment is a GC Executive who are unwilling to listen to any call for action.
We have to make them listen, before we can turn to the details of how we start to apply pressure on CX.
willnotcomply
26th Jan 2008, 13:36
What does our Union Leadership say about members taking up Check and Training positions, or guys extending, or joining on CoS 2008?
Nothing, so what's your problem?
THAT IS THE PROBLEM:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:Do you check in with the AOA before you have a crap in the morning?I'm sure you have a good brain, try using it!
Frogman1484
26th Jan 2008, 23:26
I still think yuo need to have rocks in your head for taking up a training post. Their rosters suck 90% of the time. They constantly get shafted by Crew control on days off. your work load goes up by 30% if not more.
All of this for just 10% more money....nah!
Lost_Cause
27th Jan 2008, 00:59
If you think that a ban on check and trainers is called for (or other forms of contact compliance) then communicate this officially to your GC (call, email or write-in asap), and encourage all of your mates to do the same.
Where have you been???? What do you think many of us have been doing for months and months? We have been tirelessly trying to communicate with the AOA GC regarding this issue; but with no results. That's why we must try and spread the word by other means. As you say, we have a GC that fails to listen. And that is precisely the problem. They won't listen because half of them are in C&T positions themselves, and more are stepping forward as we speak. Do your research... you'll find that another, apparently pro AOA GC member, has just stepped forward. They really do have rocks in their heads! Many of our current GC members are individuals only looking out for themselves! Selfish!
Having said that though, there are some good guys on that GC; and more "true to our cause" are stepping forward as we speak. These guys do need our support. I take my hat off to them.
In the meantime, at least until the AOA gets it together, get your head out of the sand and stop helping the company out. That means no answering your phone, no working on G-days, and most importantly no volunteering for C&T positions. You don't need the AOA to hold your hand on this one. Unless of course you're gonna be selfish like many of them, and use the lack of guidance from the AOA as an excuse as well. Only idiots would not realize what damage they are doing by volunteering for any of these situations.
In the meantime, spread the word... And the next time you see one of them walking around like someone special, ask them what they really stand for.
I had a gentle dig at one TC the day, I said "i don't know why you bother...........blah blah"
His response? "someone has to pass these people"
I hope he was joking.
willnotcomply
27th Jan 2008, 14:49
Well said. I hope people get the message.
A. Le Rhone
27th Jan 2008, 20:30
For those who actually believe the drivvel being posted here you are a bunch of group-thinking fools..
Firstly, after the 49ers you expected everybody else to fight your fight for you. You all still took upgrades whilst trying to ban new joiners coming in to the company and calling them scabs. What sort of selfish logic was that?
Now you expect TC's to fight your fight for you and attack them with your cowardly anonymous rhetoric on PPRUNE.
How about you get off you collective whining backsides and actually do something constructive to improve your lot. Convert the Whining into tangible action or shut up.
I have, I knocked back training and I refuse to work on a G day.
I stand ready willing and able to support my union when called apon to do so.
What have YOU done A. Le Rhone? What's your position then?
"someone has to pass these people"
At least it wasnt "someone has to fail these people"
:}
MAX:cool:
Lost_Cause
28th Jan 2008, 16:10
Is that your best defense that you can come up with? You're obviously one of the selfish individuals that this thread refers to. You probably also work on G-days, and do everything else to line your pockets, while screwing all the juniors below you. Shame on you! People like you will forever be remembered, and held accountable, for the reduction in terms imposed by our wonderful loving employer.
For your information, many of us stood strong during the 49er situation, and have done so ever since. Just because others may not have, still doesn't make it right that you're helping the company out now by taking C & T. No excuses please.
And, we're not expecting you to fight our fight; we're just expecting you to do your part - like many others are doing. Do your part by not being selfish and helping out on G-day's, or in C & T. For the benefit of everyone. Not rocket science.
Instead of attacking people on this forum for venting their frustrations, maybe you should consider enlightening us on why you choose to do what you do? Can you please explain the benefits to the membership when people like you go and selfishly undermine the negotiating position of the AOA?
Thanks to people like you, we now have imposed COS08! Well done.
Penske
28th Jan 2008, 17:04
the negotiating position of the AOA
The jokes almost write themselves.............
Did a comparison on C/T productivity vs line crews the 30% more is not far off. They work on average 26% more hours not including ERAS and the other bull. All for 10% more. I only compared TC's and TC's with check. Enjoy your increased productivity!!!!!