Owning/Running a Cessna 421

[rich49]

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone on here had any experience owning/operating a C-421 Golden Eagle? They don't really get talked about that often and they seem to be a good a/c from reading about them.

Are there any major issues with maintenance or performance?

What are the operating/maintenance costs like?

Just curious.

Thanks,

Rich

[AC-DC]

Rich
I have loged about 50h in a C-421c but this was some years ago. Indeed, a great aircraft to fly. Other than fuel consumption the turbos are sensitive to shock cooling, also the gear reduction between the engine and the prop needs to be taken into consideration so you have to be very careful the way you operate the engines, also there are some issues with the exhaust system and I think that there might be some with the spar but am not sure if the 421 is effected.

If you can efford the running costs (i would say £500-600 per hour) and if you are looking to buy one than the C model is the one to go for.

[Jetscream 32]

Fantastic fun, especially out of Elstree....!!! - make sure you only buy one with the trailing link u/c - watch the turbos as already stated, think ahead, think further ahead - then smile...! if it fly's, floats, of .....ck's - RENT IT...!

It will eat you out of house and home on C of A's - if you need a hand finding a good one - which will only really come from the USA then holler - i have some friends who deal in them, and i have been involved with a few here in the UK..

[frontlefthamster]

Unless you plan to do lots of hours, and are desperate to do the flying yourself, I suggest you sort yourself out with a deal on a citation of some sort and relax in the comparative luxury of something with proper engines, and save yourself the worry of operating possibly the most costly piston twin in its class on the planet! :cool:

PS If you go for the citation, don't stand up in a hurry! :sad:

[deice]

I've been wondering about the C421 as well, but I'm starting to look more towards C414s. Basically the same aircraft but different engines unless I'm misinformed. Any tips to offer on that one? Is it a better choice than the 421 or just in my dreams?
Citations although nice can hardly be less expensive to operate than a piston twin can they?

[frontlefthamster]

The right fractional contract on a citation will cost much less than the ownership and operating costs of a C421, provided you're doing a reasonably low number of hours (I'd guess at about 50 to 150 hours a year, but there are many, many, variables).

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Heard a rumour that an engine change recently was running at around 70k per side.

TBO IIRC was around 1500 hrs for the gitso's long time ago tho

[421]

TBO's are as follows:

GTSIO-520-H (421B) 1200 hours
GTSIO-520-L (fitted to earlier 421C's) 1600 hours
GTSIO-520-N (fitted to later models 421c) 1600 hours

On UK reg there used to be a restriction on Spars (6400 hours) but not sure if this still applies under EASA. We used to maintain a nice one (N421N) which had been completely refurbed stateside prior to delivery to UK. Had spoilers fitted too to assist with descent. Trailing Link undercarriage makes for smoother landings. Most privately operated don't tend to be on UK reg. If low utilisation and UK reg'd might be worth considering leasing to AOC operator.

The 414's don't have the geared engines.

[llanfairpg]

We operated a Golden Eagle throughout Europe and never experienced the problems that others did with the engines. I found it an excellent rewarding aircraft to fly with a great cabin and very quiet but the wheel spin up on touch down produced some 'orrible' passenger moments sometimes.(standard U/C)

Our aircraft was replaced with a Citation so if you want to know about operating cost pm me and I will put you in touch with the ex MD who handled all that.

The only incidents we experienced in the 8 years we had it were.

Engine dipstick fractured in situ

Struck by lightning twice (one incident cost £20,000)

I seem to remember there were some C421 incidents with the fuel pump systym--my memory is dim but I seem to remember there wasa 3 position switch and one or two pliots had the wrong selection on TO. I think--worth finding out about.

[Pilot-H]

Some interesting information here:


http://stoenworks.com/Corporate%20Flight%20Ops.html

[rich49]

Thank you for all your replies and help,they made for some interesting reading!

[Golden Eagle 08]

Gentlemen,

we are considering buying a C421B.
But we are a little afraid that the B-series Golden Eagle has reached their maximum age.
Is it ?
Or can we go on for another 10 - 15 years ?
Greetz

[AC-DC]

The C is a much better aircraft, look for late model.

[S-Works]

PM 421C on here, he operates guess what, a 421C and it is a stunning aircraft. I have had the privilege of flying it and the machine is amazing. What he does not know about operating one is not worth knowing.

[flybymike]

Several years ago when our group were considering upgrading our Cessna 335 ( unpressurised 340) to a C421 we asked our engineer's opinion and advice on the idea.

They recommended we purchase a DC3 instead "because it would be cheaper to run" :rolleyes:

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have flown the A, B, and C models of the 421

My take

421 A(1968-69): Stay away as it does not have enough wing so the performance is basically the same as a early 414 with way more fuel flow. It also has a low usefull load and narrow C of G range.

421 B(1970-1975): A very impressive airplane. King Air 90 Performance, good load carrying capacity and a very stable instrument platform. Downside is the needlessly complicated fuel system and a unreliable pressurization system on the early ones (1970 to 1974).

421C (1976-1985): The best of the breed. It has the late model high diff pressurization, simple wet wing fuel system and the best performance thanks to its clean wing.

Overall I think the 421 is the best value going. The 414 A (basically a 421C with direct drive 310 HP engines) has less performance and a poor usefull load but cost more year for year. This is mainly due to the IMO undeserved poor reputation of the 421's geared GTSIO 520 engines. The 421C I last flew was sold with 1450 hours on both engines and all original cylinders , turbo's, exhaust (except for one precautionary tail pipe replacement) and fine wire spark plugs. Except for 25 hr oil changes and regular fuel pressure calibrations (vital for proper engine operation) the engines required virtually no work.

But and this is a big but , if a 421 was built today it would cost at least 1.5 M US $ . Parts are priced accordingly so you must have the money to run it. For example the owner of the above 421C I flew budgeted $ 40,000 a year for maintainance (not including engine/prop reserve) and it was in good shape when he bought it. He also budgeted 3500 US $ a year for annual simulator refresher training at SIMCOM in Arizona for both of us, another must IMO if you want to safely operate this class of aircraft.

If you are serious about buying a 421 buy the very best one you can find as it will be the best deal. Pay now or pay (more) later but you will pay.
Finally get someone who has a proven record of sucess operating the airpalne to teach you how to fly it and more importantly how to manage the engines. Proper use of the mixture control in all phases of flight, setting the correct RPM, and carefull CHT management, are necessary for trouble free engines.

[IO540]

I've got 2hrs ME in my logbook and it was in a 421C and it was the slickest plane I have ever been in.

Speaking personally, I would examine the "mission profile" (I know certain people on here hate that phrase) carefully, because it does burn avgas, lots of it, and a SE turboprop is worth a look at for the widely available fuel. However, a SE TP will cost more to buy than a 421C, I am sure.

[Golden Eagle 08]

So I see we need to go at least for a 421B 1975.
Are there really so much problems with the press on the '70-'74 models ?
How much $ to keep the pressuration on these models running ?
Could someone tell me what the operation cost are on the 421B's ?
Annual, fixed, etc
Or who should we contact.
Any special items to look for if we really go to buy one (besides a good mechanic)
Do you know a good shop where they know the 421B in and out ?

Happy New Year to you all !

[Golden Eagle 08]

So going trough all the posts we decided to get a 421B
Can you help us with costs like annuals, fixed, engines stock or RAM, etc
Is there really a big problem with the presurasation on the '70-'74 model ?
Can you tell us what the biggest problems are with the B's ?

[421C]

There is no way to forecast the costs accurately. If your decision depends on it, then be careful!

Annuals will be between 10k euros and 30k euros
Insurance is fairly cheap - relates to hull value, say 5k euros
Avgas burn is 130-160l/hr
Eurocontrol charges are ~50euro/hr
Engines are about 50k euro to overhaul, each


I have two bits of advice. Invest about 0.2% of what a 421 will cost to join Cessna Pilots Association (http://www.cessna.org). The Twin Cessna forum is a vast archive of knowledge. You could spend days reading about every nuance of 421 ownership and operations. Also, a typical pre-purchase costing say 1000euro will review all the logs and paperwork and involve a reasonable but somewhat cursory inspection. It will not discover problems that could cost a very significant proportion of the purchase price to fix. Pay for something closer to an annual inspection (including inspecting inside the cylinders etc for corrosion). It will be a tough decision - because you could invest 2k-3k euros in inspection and test flight and than have to walk away. Better you do that a few times than buy the wrong airplane.

brgds
421C

[Golden Eagle 08]

Does someone has any flight reports on the C421B ?
Is the CPA really a good deal ?
Is there a lot of info on the C421 ?
Thanks guys

[fernytickles]

I fly a C421C (1979) and given the choice, for practical reasons would get rid of it yesterday. It has a poor payload (max 3 pax and minimum baggage with full fuel), it is slow to climb, slow in cruise and fussy in descent (engine management).

And talk about a dripping roast for a mechanic. Our guys could probably retire to somewhere warm on what we spend maintaining that aeroplane.... Go for a small jet any day, at least you won't be looking at a ground speed of 90kts when the headwinds pick up.. :(

For actual handling, its a Cessna through and through, therefore a nice aeroplane to fly.

[flyboy2]

IF you have one(1) excellent, very experienced ,full-time maintenance engineer & IF you manage the engines very carefully, you might be lucky with the C421.
The C-model is definately the best airframe as mentioned.
Best choice is to consider the RAM-modified models with full-house add-ons,which includes the very effective spoilers.

With over 1000 hours on the various 400 models, I've known all along that besides all things mentioned in the posts made, that turning on sand requires great care to preserve the nose-gear. They also don't last well on rough grass
strips. PM me if you need more info.

The Cessna Conquest turbo-prop version with it's de-rated PT-6 motors is the best option, as you then avoid the piston-engine hassles discussed.

[Golden Eagle 08]

Thanks for all the feedback.
But we also have a budget and the purchase price of a 425 is about 3 times the price of a good 421B.
and the PT6's cost also a lot of money to operate (TBO, overhaul)
And they also burn some gallons of Jet A-1.
Another question how good are the RAM engines for the 421 ?
Is there a lot of difference between the I,II, . . ., VII ?
Besides the problems with the stock engines I have been hearing also a lot of stories about this upgrade.
So can you give us some feedback on this item ?

[Big Pistons Forever]

RAM Series IV , V and VII refer to the C 340 and C414 aircraft. The mod allows the existing direct drive TSIO 520 engines to pull more boost so they can deliver 325 HP (Series IV ) or 335 HP (Series VI, VII). There is no RAM engine mod for the 421 series. The only RAM engine mod for the 421 engine is a switch to the late series heavy case 7th Stud engine which has a 1600 hr TBO versus the original 1200hrs. There are no mods to increase the HP for the piston 421. There are airframe mods however. The spoiler mod is highly desirable as it allows you to descend without excessively reducing the power and thus shock cooling the engine. In fact with a bit of planning you can fly the whole descent and approach to landing with the power left at 24 inches MP, only closing the throttles in the flare. There is a mod to put winglets on the airplane but IMO they are a purely cosmetic addition as there does not appear to be much of a performance improvement. The VG mod however is IMO a must have, as it makes the airplane safer and gives you 140 extra pounds at MGTOW

I find the remarks by fernytickles puzzling as the 1977 421C I flew could carry full mains (206 USG) and 6 adults plus bags. As for the cruise speed I flight planned 215 Kts which in my experience is faster than any piston twin except the Machen Aerostar.

My 02 cents
If you are going to have a happy ownership experience with a 421 ( or any comparable type of aircraft) there are 3 things you need to have

1) Enough money to buy a good well cared for machine and the resources to fix anything that breaks immediately. Defered maintainance doesn't work on these kinds of machines.

2) Have access to a maintainance shop that has prior experience fixing cabin class Twin Cessnas. Paying for you engineers learning curve will kill you.

3) Be tought how to fly it and just as important manage its engines and systems by someone with extensive experience on the make and model. You must also have a regular course of recurrent training, preferably incorporating a realistic simulator phase.

The same time I was flying the 421C another fellow bought a 421B to run commercially. The airplane he bought had good paint and a gorgous red leather interior. Unfortunately it also had a spotty maintainance history and the shop did not think it was the best airplane available. I offered to check him out but he said he "didn't need any training". Anyway after running it at max allowable TIT to "save fuel", never seeming to allow it to warm up and always rushing around in a hurry, he burned through three (3) $ 65,000 engines in 18 months. It also seemed to be in the shop after every flight with airframe snags untill he simply started to defer the work. Needless to say this story does not have a happy ending.

[Golden Eagle 08]

Gentlemen, I really would like to thank you for all info.
I just joined cessna.org and there is an amazing lot of info on it !
Really worth it's $ 70.00 !
If you have a Cessna just take a look
Greetz

[yrizvi86]

Greetings,


I have a Cessna 800B Nav O Matic Autopilot in my Cessna 421C. Recently the autopilot is causing problems. It does not engage when i push the autopilot button.

Any advice?


Regards

Yasir

[BigEndBob]

I worked with a instructor who had a share in a 421.
He said never again.
Cost £100,000 to buy and another £100,000 in two years in maintenance.
He wished he had bought a house instead, although they don't fly!

[john ball]

I believe there are two very sad looking C421's sitting at Biggin Hill, one has no engines. to me they look un-flown for several years ? Maybe good for parts ?
May be that tells a story about the operating costs ?

[G-ARZG]

I believe there are two very sad looking C421's sitting at Biggin Hill, one has no engines. to me they look un-flown for several years ? Maybe good for parts ?
May be that tells a story about the operating costs ?

They're gone now! 'ZG

[Jetblu]

yrizvi86

There may be a dry connection. Is this this yoke command or the 800 head itself? Electrical spray around the contacts maybe if you have no avionic shop close by.

The GTSIO-520's are not that bad, although thirsty. Very careful engine management is a must. Stick with the maintenance schedule and there shouldn't be too many gotchas. A lovely aircraft to fly.