SAA in Lusaka incident

[ERASER]

Heard a SAA B738 and a catering truck had a kissing match in Zambia while taxing to the parking bay.

Any news on the damage?

[Aspen20]

Happened in Lusaka. Toppled a catering truck. The nav light was damaged. The a/c flew back, no problem. Now in the hangar for repairs.

Africa must be the only continent where you follow marshaller's direction with EXTREME caution. Lusaka is normally serviced by the A319

[ERASER]

Thanx Aspen20, the B738 must be a tough bird knocking a catering truck over with almost no damage. My thinking was that the winglet would be damaged and required removal......well, good to hear the a/c, crew and pax to be okay......

E

[Leezyjet]

Africa must be the only continent where you follow marshaller's direction with EXTREME caution.

Always used to make me laugh watching the marshallers in LOS. Their signal to turn left/right was actually the signal for passing on to another marshaller !!. All done with hands in front of body so they could hardly be seen !!.


Used to watch the a/c start the turn onto stand, stop both pilots look at each other as if to say "WTF is this guy doing ?" realising what he does actually mean, then moving forward again !!!.

I tried to teach them the correct signals a few times, they listened, demonstrated the movements, then the next time an aircraft came in, they just did it their normal way :ugh:

:\

[bradnie]

Interesting incident in Lusaka upon arrival, taxing to the gate.
View the link: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3766690/

[Shrike200]

Always nice to have visuals as well:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=087_1198706113&p=1

Awesome driving guys!

(Edit to add: That last jab was said in a tongue-in-cheek, but friendly tone. Clipping something with an airliners wingtip is EASY to do, we should all know that!)

[bianchi]

Very sad that a''thing-incident''like this happened to one of SAA's most competent and carefull pilots!Also shows you how much punch a BOEING has !:E

[Carrier]

I wonder what "damages" (bribe) had to be paid before the crew and plane were released? Of course it's always the musungu's fault!

[ruffrider]

It would be interesting to know if the crew were under marshallers instructions (I suspect that they would have been) and it seems that the offending vehicle was incorrectly parked. Once the cameraman recovers from the initial jolt he pans back to the vehicle and it is clearly over the white line i.e. outside the demarcated safety area. On the video evidence........crew exonerated! Skipper should buy the cameraman a beer!

[Shrike200]

Made break.com as well (same video):

http://www.break.com/index/airplane-knocks-over-truck.html

And, wrong place or not, it's still a stationary object (ie if a brick wall was in the wrong place, would you taxi into it? :E ) Still, as I said, it's easy to just 'edge' something. :ok:

[ruffrider]

Hey shrike, why would a brick wall be outside the demarcated safety area? It appears that this was a movable object that was incorrectly parked.......an entirely different situation to taxiing into a fixed object such as a wall or light post. Obviously one tries to avoid this sort of thing at all costs, but **** happens. I'm still interested to know whether the crew were under marshallers orders though, and if the captain was taxiing. If this was the case he would have been shifting his eyes from marshaller to wingtip and back again, not really an ideal situation. On the evidence presented I maintain that the crew were not to blame, but knowing how things work in aviation and particularily in Africa, I have no doubt that they will try to pin it on the crew.:bored:

[kotakota]

Glad nobody hurt , that truck could have given someone a severe headache.
However , food for thought , an NG wingtip can be seen from the flightdeck and if the offending vehicle WAS over the line then it should have been noted by the crew and appropriate action taken . Blindly obeying the marshaller ( purely speculation ) at ANY airport is not the best idea.
If the truck was moving then that is a different matter altogether.
An old Rhodesian skipper in Air Malawi told me many moons ago to NEVER take any shortcuts while taxiing and always keep the yellow line beneath your nosewheel ( this was before 747s , slightly different technique for cornering ). This would mean that the finger could never be pointed about 'loose' taxiing on the crews part.

Safe days

KK

[Avi8tor]

On the video evidence........crew exonerated! Skipper should buy the cameraman a beer!
Sadly VERY wrong. That piece of footage is gonna get him fired. The truck was parked very neatly on the OTHER side of the RED line the demarcates the APRON. It was also stationary.

Remember Possums , the captain is FINALLY responsible for the aircraft. Even if he was under marshaller's instructions, even when if he is taxiing on the yellow line. If it looks close, STOP.

But for the grace of god....

[Shrike200]

Sorry, perhaps a wall wasn't the best example. My point was, it wasn't (or at least didn't appear to be) moving. And it wasn't in 'stealth' mode, ie it was in plain sight prior to the aircraft reaching it. But I'm not going to argue the point - I do realise that these things occur, and I make absolutely no judgement whatsoever against the crew involved - I'm sure they were doing the best they could given the circumstances.

[Avi8tor]

I agree, and as i have said in another thread, I am NOT commenting on the crew's performance. I wasn't in the cockpit and they are not here to defend themselves.

Just a lesson for us all as to how quick it happens.

[Brandten]

Here you go
http://www.break.com/index/airplane-knocks-over-truck.html

Its ZS-SJD (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1106432/L/)

[reverserunlocked]

Ouch. Hardly a scratch on the 737 though. It is one tough old bird.

[ruffrider]

Maybe I got this one wrong, but for the sake of the crew I hope not! The way I still see it though, is that the catering truck was lying on it's side and outside the white line which demarcates the safety area in which stationary service vehicles should be parked. (All the other equipment seems to be well inside the boxed area). I fully concur that it is plain folly to blindly follow the marshaller (especially in Africa), but one does have to take marshallers instructions into consideration along with various other factors. I believe the crew have an argument in their favour.

[JvJ]

Meals on wheels anyone?

[green granite]

it is just over the line BUT that could be the result of the accident. (either way)

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/orangeherald/cateringtruck.jpg

[PAXboy]

The insurance companies must be very pleased that pax was filming. If the thick red line painted on the ground, that is visible at the bottom of the window, is the dividing line between space for a/c and space for vehicles, then it would appear that the catering truck was in his correct zone. Also, when the camera looks back at the fallen truck, it seems that it was parked nose-in to the kerb as far as it could go - presuming that it was supposed to be parked in that place, of course. I sit to be corrected.

[FIRESYSOK]

Maybe the impact felt was not substantial, but from the camera movement it looks as if it was. The strange thing is the crew continue their taxi as if nothing happened!

[Gyro Nut]

I'm very surprised that the a/c flew back to Joburg for repairs. How does one know that the main spar didn't get damaged pushing a truck onto it's side. A/c aren't designed for such a load surely?

[Localiser Established]

I'm very surprised that the a/c flew back to Joburg for repairs. How does one know that the main spar didn't get damaged pushing a truck onto it's side. A/c aren't designed for such a load surely?I'm pretty sure the 'load' exerted on the wing by pushing the truck over is not as much as (half) the weight of a fully loaded 738 it was designed to lift.

[PAXboy]

If the catering truck was empty, then it would not have weighed much. Also, the point of collision was right at the top of the truck and so maximum leverage would have been exerted.

[Carrier]

For those not familiar with FLLS, the red line marks the edge of the apron. The area between the red line and the white line is a service road used by emergency vehicles, VIP vehicles, Air BP fuel trucks, tractors pulling luggage carts or portable staircases, etc. You will note it has pedestrian crossing zebra stripes from the buildings. Beyond the white line is where various airport equipment and vehicles are parked. You can see many items parked in the demarcated areas. If the target truck was slightly over the white line then it was intruding on to the service roadway, not on to the apron.
Because some of the locals were not known for their driving skills, when I parked near the terminal buildings I always left a suitable space between my aircraft and the red line in case of any wayward vehicles. I will admit that my left wing did cross the red line sometimes when turning but I always ensured that there were no vehicles about to pass by. I preferred to park on the other side of the apron where there was less risk of being hit.

[Gyro Nut]

Wings are designed to withstand forces in the vertical plane, ie. positive and negative g's, not forces in the horizontal plane. By hitting the tip of the wing, maximum leverage would have also been exerted on the wing.

If it was me, I don't think I would have been too happy to take the a/c back to base, unless a proper assessment was done. How does assess if there was any damage to the root of the aircraft, unless panels are removed and X-rays conducted. Somehow I doubt all this would have been done. Knocking over a truck like that, would have put quite a lot of stress on the wing.

What do the mechanical engineer boffs think?

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

Replies to posts 27 & 28,

Yes I'm sure wings are designed for forces in both directions but in "thrust = drag" is this not in equilibrium? please correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway these forces are usually gradual, this Incidental force was by no means not. I cannot comment on the release of the Aircraft as fit or Airworthy to make the return trip but look at it this way guys, In view of what South African aviation has gone through in the past few weeks in the press you can be sure someone has put their balls on the chopping block to deem this aircraft safe.

This impact made what appears to be ( though probably costly ) fairly minor damage at the almost extremety of the wing which IMHO is the weakest point. I would assume that the that the impact was absorbed along the wings length and that there is no major structural damage elsewhere. Why else would it be allowed home?

[rockpecker]

The insurance companies must be very pleased that pax was filming.


Thats what insurance is for. **** happens.

Purely academic question, forgetting for a moment who did what, or the behavioural interactions (ie human drama) that will inevitably follow:
Considering the forces involved - momentums, leverage optimum at the top of the truck, it being stationary but not immovable (as opposed to, say, hitting a building) etc., would this incidental impact (low speed/high mass) be all that different in its effect on the wing than a birdstrike at high speed (high speed/low mass)? Anyone?
This may help clarify the sensibility of the decision to proceed with flight.

[PAXboy]

In view of what South African aviation has gone through in the past few weeks in the press you can be sure someone has put their balls on the chopping block to deem this aircraft safe.Indeed. There is also a 99% certainty that the person who made the decision did not know that a pax had filmed it and the severity would be available world wide. Ooops.:=

Did the a/c return that same day? Was the return on schedule? Was the return a commercial rotation or a ferry?

[Localiser Established]

Yes I'm sure wings are designed for forces in both directions but in "thrust = drag" is this not in equilibrium? please correct me if I'm wrong.Not during the climb (Lift > Weight) and during any change of speed, e.g. accelerating/increasing speed (Thrust > Drag).

[Danny1987]

Mazungus rule!
love lusaka airport like a second home!

[kotakota]

Suitcaseman , at last we have uncovered the identity of the Cathay Pacific technical paper writer !!

[chuks]

It is easy to be wise after the fact. If you drive around looking over your shoulder you may just run over something right in front of you!

I am sure someone will be out there running around with a tape measure, seeing just how far it is from the centreline of the taxiway to the red line, white line, etcetera.

Who knows? It might be that there is a height restriction for vehicles parked there.

The Air Force guys I used to fly with had a saying about how you could collect ten "Attaboy!"s and trade them for one "Go get 'em!" Ten of those earned you the ultimate, one "Well done!" But one "Aw, sh1t!" cancelled the lot!

[Flying Bean]

Carrier is correct.
Lusaka is my home base and I now fly in as SLF 2/3/4 times a month. I fly in with both SAA and Q3. That is the first time I have EVER seen a taxi approach like that. If I had been in that window seat I would have been very uncomfortable as soon as we made the turn.
The Red Line is very clearly the designated edge of the apron with no part of the aircraft meant to be over it. They were very lucky that the vehicle they hit was light weight. There is often some very substanial apron equipment in the white zone that could have taken the tip right off!
With regard to marshalling it is more than a year since I was actually involved, but I dont ever remember NOT seeing a marshal lining up the arriving jets. Couple of years ago they were sometimes late (for our B1900s) -trotting out as the aircraft was turning on to the apron.

[PAXboy]

The Red Line is very clearly the designated edge of the apron with no part of the aircraft meant to be over it.In that case, someone has just lost a large chunk of their career. Irrespective of who was handling, the Captain must also be in trouble.

Yet, the good news is that there is no report of anyone being injured. It is not unknown for workers to stand alongside tall vehicles to take shade from the sun, whilst waiting for the next arrival. The truck could easily have been pushed over onto such people, or seriously hurt any sitting on the tailgate. So this is a good warning and will probably find it's way into the training schools.

[Flying Bean]

I am bringing this back to the top again and would request some comment from regular users of Lusaka. Carrier??
If you go to this same thread that is running in in the "Rumours" board there are two vital bits of information that are not on our 'African' thread.

1. There is NO ICAO designation for Red Lines being the edge of the apron.
2. You cannot follow the Taxi Guide Lines painted on the apron without going over the the Red Line especially with a 800.

As a regular user of Lusaka as both an Operator and Pilot I must now apologise for my post about the Red Line!!! It would appear that we are operating on a 'local use' rule.
This definately needs to be queried with Lusaka Airports Authority and Zambia DCA which I shall be doing on my next stay. I will report back
:O

[nugpot]

Mr Bean ;)

You'll see from this picture that there is no way to get an -800 to park like this without pushing it back into that position or to let the wing cross the red line.

The problem is really the design of the bays. I'll bet that SAA will start parking exactly parallel to the buildings ASAP.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f37/nugpot/LusakaIntCropped.jpg

[nugpot]

planecrazy
You miss the point completely, you arrogant :mad:

At least do the rest of the posters the courtesy of reading the entire thread. The whole debate about the red line came because an earlier poster said that the aircraft was not allowed to cross the red line.

We bleed for you when you struggle to taxi your French plastic toy in Heathrow. You will not find a post that said the captain was not responsible. The rest of the readers here try to learn something.

But then again, some people cannot be taught anything.............

[4HolerPoler]

Gotta agree with Nugs - the guy isn't normally this swollen-headed but wow, he's seriously impressed with himself today.

There but for the grace................. In any size airplane.

Nuff said.

4HP

[planecrazi]

OK, it was a good evening out for a change!
Apologies

I will retract the paragraph!

[nugpot]

As do I planecrazi.

I shouldn't post at 2348 in the evening ;)

[Flying Bean]

nugpot
The following question was sent to DCA Zambia

We would request clarification of the following apron markings at L.I.A.
>
> The Red Line Running along the concrete drain (East- West) on the edge
> of the Main Apron, next to the service road.
> Is this an official designation of the edge of the apron for aircraft operational purposes?


The following answer was received:-

“The Red Lines are Apron Safety lines demarcating the Apron area, marking limits of parking Areas for Ground Equipment, service roads and passenger' paths.

- The lines are narrower and are in different colour from the guidelines used for aircraft.

- This is a standard guide as per ICAO documents.”


So it would appear, as mentioned earlier in this thread, that there is no official (ICAO) line demarcation for the edge of an apron for aircraft operations.
The Red Line is for traffic OFF the apron

Nugpot – does this tie in with your reading of ICAO 14 ??

There is definitely no edge yellow line on the video. As you have pointed out there is only the taxi guide line track which could not be followed by the aircraft in the space available.
Where does that leave the Pilot?? And the Marshal?
:(

[Jamex]

Flyin Bean said;

Where does that leave the Pilot?? And the Marshal?
:(

Serious trouble for the pilot, as usual. The powers that be will no doubt nail him. They always do after an incident as it is just so much easier than actually investigating and coming up with a proper solution. Got to be seen to be doing something, you know!! As for the marshaller, well nothing will happen to him at all! Dont you just love being a pilot and always being on the wrong side of the scam? But seriously, thats why PPRUNE is a great idea. Used correctly we may just achieve the impossible and get pilots to stand together on these issues. Forlorn hope I know but, what the hell I can hope cant I?

[Avi8tor]

As I said before, the COMMANDER is finally responsible for the aircraft. Lines or no lines, with or without a marshaller, he taxied in to a stationary object in plain view.

The lesson here is taxi slowly and LOOK. If in doubt, STOP. Call for a wing walker. If then he had hit the truck, roast the wing walker.

The other sad thing is SAA ripped the APU out of somebody elses B742, not a yr ago, 'taxiing on the line'.

But as both 4HP and I have both said "there, but for the grace of god, go I." It happens SO quickly.

[call100]

Hi all.
Anyone heard anything from the investigation on this?

[alpha99]

I bet the pilot was pissed off that day because SAA doesn't want to increase his already out of this world salary and benefits......makes you wonder......another thing thats frequent among SAA pilots is that they slam the poor birds onto the runway!!!!! Pilots should stop being so arrogant and stop bitching about conditions when the cabin crew have it harder than them..though i must add cabin crew of SAA are just plain boring and lifeless....that airline needs to really start treating its employees with respect and get rid of the management and the lazy's:hmm:

[Shrike200]

Sigh....fight's on. Laying it on a bit thick there maybe?

[call100]

Sorry!! Did I miss something? Was that an update on the event?

[Charliesjc]

I've stood on the apron and watched the aircraft taxying on many occasions. Zambian Airways 732's don't run a risk of overshooting the red line if they follow the markings on the apron. The B738,however, should turn quite a bit before the markings if it wants to avoid a wingtip over the red line.

The marshalls there are a joke tho, they just stand there waving their arms.

[call100]

Any official report on the incident anywhere? Either from the airport or SAA?:}

[Mukosha]

Really I dont understand what you are all going on about. The 738 is not the biggest plane we get into Lusaka and there are certainly aircraft with a longer wingspan. So, despite supposed poor bay design, red lines, etc the matter is very simple. SAA are the only ones to have done this and that is that. A very long thread for what seems to be a simple case of pilot error.

As for muzungus.. well I have seem them do some pretty silly stuff in Zambia of late.. especially ones in ZS registered aircraft.

[call100]

A very long thread for what seems to be a simple case of pilot error.
Exactly, Your view is Pilot error. I would still like to know what the official outcome was as I'm not so sure. Do you usually stick your head in the sand?
If you are not interested why post?:rolleyes:

[Mukosha]

I am interested for two reasons; I am Zambian, and I was at the airport.

Of course the markings might be wrong for a 738 and yes chances are good the marsheller wasnt really giving his full attention to the job at hand. But at the end of the day.. its up to the pilot.

I have seen SAA come in there. Sometimes they race in and park that bird like its a 172. Perhaps they were tired? Long day? Still pilot error.

[call100]

OK, So the answer to my question is that you have absolutely no idea.:rolleyes:

Has anyone else heard anything along the official lines please?....

[putco]

Mukosha

Could you give us all the definition of a muzungu please?

[LittleMo]

Muzungu means white man I believe... thanks for playing the race card Mukosha

[call100]

I was trying to ignore that one. Ignorance seems to be his speciality.

[fluffyfan]

As for muzungus.. well I have seem them do some pretty silly stuff in Zambia of late.

As for Darkies...well I have seen them do some pretty spectacular stuff to most of Africa....my favorite is Zimbabwe

Lets not go there Mukosha, there is no need for race in this thing, I suspect you are correct and it will come down to pilot error, but dont think you are above making errors no matter how dark you are......errors happen to the best of us, as this incident has shown, and they happen quickly when they happen, dont be a smug twa*.

[putco]

Actually mzungu is the white scum that blows off the top of the ocean you see sometimes, basically the name given to the white man who arrived off the sea from afar. That told to me by many of my black friends.

Just wanted to see what his definition was?

[Mukosha]

Fluffyfan you funny guy. I was just referring to a comment made in an earlier post about "muzungus ruling" which seemed childish and wanted to make the point that it had nothing to do with race. You my friend have just made race an unpleasant factor.:eek:

Secondly, as it turns out I am a muzungu :) Guess you just stereotyped me because of my name. These mistakes happen :rolleyes:

Anyway, this is not the point of this topic so moving on. Its great no one was hurt and I hope someone bought us a new truck :)

[fluffyfan]

Mukosha
Its great no one was hurt and I hope someone bought us a new truck

Isnt that just the african way....."You hit my goat whilst driving on the road, therefore you must buy me a new goat" or "You happend to hit me while I was staggering pissed along the highway now you must pay for the rest of your life to help me" .............Africa I just love it

As for you being a white person....I could not give a flying F:mad: what colour you are.

[Flying Bean]

Guys Guys can we please stop all racial comment now and get back on thread!!:ugh:

I popped into Lusaka DCA this week to see what was happening.
The investigation is continuing but we will not get a public report until it has been to the Minister. A few weeks yet i think. It will be interesting to see if any reccomendations will be made on marshalling.

However Aerodromes did confirm that Bay 1 did have guide markings for the larger aircraft and that this has now also been done for Bay 2.
Will check it out next time I'm on the apron.:D

[SortieIII]

EISSH, suitcaseman, you have said a mouthful!:ok:

There, but for divine intervention, go I.

[call100]

I will feel so bad about it 4 pages later I may kill myself.Better than killing someone else through ignorance! If you don't want to read the thread stay off it. Some of us are interested in learning from the mistakes of others. Better than learning from your own. :ugh:

Flying Bean...Thanks very much for the effort. Look forward to the answers.

[I.R.PIRATE]

""Feeling suicidle.....gotta go!""

Go where? Just dont go to lifeline. Last time I called them and told them those same words, the fellow (think he was called Raghmuddin) asked whether I can fly planes? Strange folk...

[call100]

I wont look at this thread again.
Good! :p
I can never understand why someone who is not interested reads any thread. Surely that's the point of a forum. You are able to cherry pick the articles of interest.
Pointless me calling you the idiot that you are, as you won't be revisiting here.;)