IFR night current....

[henli]

Im currently flying charter in NW Aus. I finished flight training with a MECIR but not a NVFR rating. This is becoming a bit of a problem as i have to stay IF current to be able to do NVFR. Does anyone know the requirements from CIR to NVFR. And what about PIFR? Could this help remain current in any way?
Cheers

[Peter Fanelli]

How are you conducting night landings without a night rating?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Probably about to show my considerable ignorance here but, .....

1) If you hold a current IR who says you need some sort of night rating to fly at night? My understanding is that to carry pax at night you need to have done 3 x night TO and landings in the previous 90 days.

2) Why can't you just keep your IR current? Smoke is a good substitute for cloud in that part of the world.

Dr :8

[Icarus53]

Absolutely you can fly at night under the without an NVFR rating - it is one of the privileges of the CIR (CAO 40.2.1 Sect 14) providing you have the required currency for night landings.

So long as you meet all the requirements for the issue of a NVFR rating and your IR is current, you should be able to apply to CASA for the issue of a NVFR rating. Similarly, the holder of a CIR can apply for a PIFR rating which allows them to fly under the IFR without the currency requirements.

It costs you for each rating of course, but a couple of guys I know got their PIFR and additional Navaids and M/E added to their NVFR after CIR was completed.

When you say you have to remain "IF current", do you mean have a current rating, or you mean current to fly under the IFR? If you mean you are not remaining current to fly IFR (despite a current rating), then a NVFR rating won't do you any good because if it's IMC then you're stuffed anyway! You are still fine to fly NVFR as long as your rating is current, even if you haven't flown in IMC for months. Make sure you meet the requirements of Sect 14 for charter ops!!!

If you mean that you have to keep the rating - if it's charter work, won't your employer want you to have the rating anyway??

[kalavo]

CASA will not issue an NVFR to someone with an MECIR and meeting the requirements of a Night Rating without sitting the test with an Authorised Testing Officer or a CASA Delegate - the test is a requirement for the issue of that rating.

You can however fly at night under the VFR category if you have a current CIR/ME and meet the requirements, if you intend to do this please read the CAO and understand what you can and can't do...

http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao40/400201.pdf

...page 15, it does vary depending on whether you are flying under the charter or aerial work category.

They will however issue a PIFR if you have a current CIR/ME that is valid for two years since your last renewal. The PIFR does not allow you to fly at Night under the VFR category that is a privilege of the CIR and Copilot IR only. It allows you to fly at night under the IFR while opearting an aircraft in the private category (ie aerial work and charter are not allowed).

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

This seems pretty clear. A requirement for particular aeronautical and recency experience.

14 Flight by night under night V.F.R. procedures

14.1 A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in command, or co-pilot, using the navigation aids endorsed in the holder’s personal log book in the following circumstances:
(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.
(b) Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) Aeronautical Experience.
The pilot’s aeronautical experience shallinclude 10 hours cross-country flight time using night V.F.R.procedures including a minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground
lighting.
(ii) Recent Experience. The pilot’s recent experience shall include 3 take-offs and landings by night within the preceding 90 days, and either a night cross-country flight (of at least 100 nautical miles or 1 hour duration) within the preceding 6 months or a flight check by
night with an approved person also within the preceding 6 months.

Dr :8

[Howard Hughes]

Why not just fly IFR?:rolleyes:

Then three take-offs and landings in the preceeding 90 days will suffice...;)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

.... and either a night cross-country flight (of at least 100 nautical miles or 1 hour duration) within the preceding 6 months

Which is why you should try to do it regularly!

Dr :8

PS: Oh, and don't forget to fly at night occassionally!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

This thread, and many like it, just illustrates how successful Cretins Against Safe Aviation have been in making the Regs as tortuous and complex as possible.

It seems a long time ago that a CPL could reasonably know and recall the Regs under which they conducted their day-to-day activities.

Dr :8

[bj777]

Where does it state that 3 takeoffs and landings in the preceeding 90 days at night are required before carrying passengers IFR at night?

My understanding is that day and night are treated the same when operating IFR. If you are IFR recent then you can fly at night, no night recency requirements!

The only stipulation for night recency is when flying at night VFR!

[Peter Fanelli]

CAO 40.2.1
8.3(e) states

The aeronautical experience of an applicant for the issue of a command instrument rating shall include
e: except for those persons whose licence is restricted to day only operations, 10 hours night flight of which not less than 5 hours shall be as pilot in command on the category of aircraft for which the rating is sought.

Since henli states that he got his MECIR without having a NVFR rating that implies that at the time of gaining his instrument rating his license was "restricted to day only operations".

If the issue of a CIR gives one the right to blast off into the night without any night training, why the distinction here.

This sub paragraph says to me that since you will not be flying at night with your command instrument rating, because you are restricted to day only operations, there is no need to have the night aeronautical experience.

Can anyone really believe that a person WITH a NVFR rating has to meet night flight requirements for the issue of a CIR yet a pilot without a NVFR rating does not, and both are permitted to fly IFR at night?

Section 14 in my opinion is simply setting out the terms under which a pilot qualified to fly at night may choose to operate IFR or under slightly less restrictive NVFR rules.

I don't see section 14 as giving approval for a pilot restricted to daytime flying only, approval to fly at night.

I may be wrong of course but I'd love to hear some more opinions from well qualified individuals.

Maybe this sort of thing wasn't an issue back when a lot more experience was required to gain employment. Pilots tended to have time to pick up things like Class 4 ratings well before they were deemed employable and needed a Class 1.

[scrambler]

Where does it state that 3 takeoffs and landings in the preceeding 90 days at night are required before carrying passengers IFR at night?

Recency Requirements

CAR 5.82 (PPL)
CAR 5.109 (CPL)
CAR 5.170 (ATPL)

[Howard Hughes]

Thanks Scrambler you beat me to it!
Where does it state that 3 takeoffs and landings in the preceeding 90 days at night are required before carrying passengers IFR at night?
Twas ever thus, except of course for the period of time that the department decreed that we only needed one every six months...:ooh:

Peter Fanelli, I too do not have a NVFR, but I do however meet the requirements to hold one! This was checked when I did my initial instrument rating all those years ago! Ergo I can fly at night, I hope...;)

[Flight Me]

Oh my lord, I hope the CASA are reading this. Perhaps they might have a go at explaining it all in clear English rather than, "cover my arse law jargon".:bored:

[Howard Hughes]

All that will happen is the will bury themselves further in 'legal jargon', so that the collective CASA arses are covered...:rolleyes:

[Unhinged]

The aeronautical experience of an applicant for the issue of a command instrument rating shall include
e: except for those persons whose licence is restricted to day only operations, 10 hours night flight of which not less than 5 hours shall be as pilot in command on the category of aircraft for which the rating is sought.

Since henli states that he got his MECIR without having a NVFR rating that implies that at the time of gaining his instrument rating his license was "restricted to day only operations".


Disagree - No such implication can be drawn. Henli didn't say that he doesn't have any night flight time, just that he doesn't have a NVFR rating. Where I work, if the student doesn't have a NVFR rating, we do part of the CIR at night to cover this exact situation.

[Peter Fanelli]

Ok so it's beginning to sound like rules have changed and the holder of a CIR can fly at night under NVFR procedures provided that the recent experience requirements are met as per CAO 40.2.1 sect 14.

Can the pilot fly IFR at night?

[Pinky the pilot]

And once again I ponder the wisdom of the removal of the requirement to hold a Night VFR ( Class 4 Instrument rating or Night VMC as it was known back then) before taking the flight test for the CPL.:hmm:

When this happened I am unsure but it certainly was required when I did my CPL in 1985.

[Unhinged]

Can the pilot fly IFR at night?

Of course they can.

13.1 A command (multi-engine aeroplane) grade of instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aeroplane as pilot in command, or co-pilot, while the aeroplane is flying under the I.F.R.

No limitation there.

BTW, S.14 sets out two separate requirements for Flight by Night Under NVFR Procedures - The rules for NVFR Charter are different for NVFR Private and Aerial Work. Importantly, NVFR Charter cannot be done with just a NVFR rating, it requires a CIR holder operating to NVFR procedures.

[Icarus53]

So I understand the situation in henli's case is that he/she got the CIR without an NVFR rating, but the CIR is not restricted to day operations.

Presumably all of his/her night command time (min 5 hours) was conducted in the circuit under supervision??? Can you send someone solo cross country at night without a rating???

Also - my apologies on earlier post and a small correction. The friends I referred to got their PIFR rating after completing the CIR, but did not get the additional nav aids on their NVFR rating. Thanks to kalavo for clearing up the requirements there.

[Peter Fanelli]

The time I've spent today looking at various CASA publications leads me to think that the CAO's and CAR's as they were back in the 70's and 80's were much easier to comprehend.

Anyone agree?

[Roger Copy Ta]

The aeronautical experience of an applicant for the issue of a command instrument rating shall include
e: except for those persons whose licence is restricted to day only operations, 10 hours night flight of which not less than 5 hours shall be as pilot in command on the category of aircraft for which the rating is sought.


I have less than 2 hours PIC multi at night (no ICUS but 15 dual). Does this mean I can't fly multi engines at night under IFR?

My night rating is restricted to single engine but my MECIR is unrestricted.

Very confusing. :confused:

By the way, why the distinction between multi at night vs single at night? IMHO if you have a night rating you have a night rating and if you have a ME endorsement you have a multi engine endorsement! It is ridiculous to have a night rating and a ME endorsement but not able to use them together!!! :ugh:

[Icarus53]

It is ridiculous to have a night rating and a ME endorsement but not able to use them together!!!

By that rationale, you don't need a MECIR! You just need a multi endorsement and the rating and you're good to go.

It doesn't matter how much multi night PIC you have, you just need the night PIC and as long you have the MECIR, you are fine to fly at night in multis (my ratings are pretty much the same).

[Zhaadum]

Several situations regarding aeronautical experience people may have
when they get their first IR-C-ME(A) are possible here.

Part of the aeronautical experience requirements for the IR-C-ME(A) is:
10 hours total night flight and of this not less than 5 hours as PIC in the
category of aircraft for which the rating is sought (aeroplane).

You cannot get a IR without this night experience unless you have a MEDICAL reason limiting you to day only ops.
It could be just circuits, the CAO do not specify what exactly.

For these situations let us assume recency, I am only talking about aeronautical experience requirements here. :)

Situation 1:

With the above you can fly SE or ME :

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)

You cannot fly NVFR, you do not meet the aeronautical experience for a NVFR rating (IE NVFR Nav training)

Situation 2:

With the above plus the NVFR Nav training specified in CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1, you can fly SE or ME:

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)



NVFR, private and airwork as long as you meet recency requirements too.(Note, you do not have to have sat the flight test for NVFR however if your IR lapses you can't fly NVFR at all).You cannot do NVFR charter.


Situation 3:

With the above plus the NVFR Nav training specified in CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1,
and having also passed a SE NVFR flight test, you can fly SE or ME:

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)



NVFR, private and airwork as long as you meet recency requirements too.(Note, that if your IR lapses you can still fly NVFR but only SE. The reason is that you have to pass a ME NVFR flight test to upgrade to a ME NVFR. The specific item from the ME flight test that you have NOT done in your SE NVFR flight test is an Engine Failure in cruise at or above LSALT.The fact that you may have done heaps of them in cloud during your IR training and IR flight test is irrelevant. I agree it probably SHOULD be relevant but that is the way the CAO is now.)You still cannot do NVFR charter.

Situation 4:

With the above plus the NVFR Nav training specified in CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1,
and having also passed a ME NVFR flight test, you can fly SE or ME:

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)
NVFR, private and airwork as long as you meet recency requirements too.
Now if your IR lapses you can still fly NVFR SE or ME.

You still cannot do NVFR charter.

Situation 5:

With the aeronautical experience in situation 3 or 4 plus the following:

Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following
aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) Aeronautical Experience. The pilot’s aeronautical experience shall
include 10 hours cross-country flight time using night V.F.R.
procedures including a minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at
least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in
command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall
exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure
and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that
of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground
lighting.
(ii) Recent Experience. The pilot’s recent experience shall include
3 take-offs and landings by night within the preceding 90 days, and
either a night cross-country flight (of at least 100 nautical miles or
1 hour duration) within the preceding 6 months or a flight check by
night with an approved person also within the preceding 6 months.

This experience is IN ADDITION to the basic navs you would have done on
the NVFR training and they are PIC or ICUS not Dual like the training was.

You can now fly SE or ME:

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)
NVFR, private and airwork as long as you meet recency requirements too.
You can finally fly NVFR charter (ME only).

Now everyone is totally confused aren't they? :bored:

Z.:ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

The time I've spent today looking at various CASA publications leads me to think that the CAO's and CAR's as they were back in the 70's and 80's were much easier to comprehend.



Roger that!

[Cap'n Arrr]

Some points... may have been raised already:

- There is a Multi Engine NVFR rating.... includes engine failures in the cruise under the hood, not sure if you need it if you have a multi CIR, but definitely need it if you only have NVFR. You can upgrade to it by simply doing some area work in a twin. Possibly don't actually need to do a nav

- Flying IFR doesn't matter if it's day or night, you just need to meet the night circuit minima i.e. 3 T/O & Ldgs

I have a multi CIR but cannot fly NVFR... reason being I don't have the aeronautical experience required by the CAOs to do it. The only real difference is that if you have a CURRENT CIR you don't need to have passed the NVFR flight test to fly NVFR, as long as you have everything else required by it i.e. nav by NVFR of certain distance etc.

I can fly night IFR under the rating so long as I have those 3 circuits in 90 days. I cannot, however, downgrade to NVFR, I must remain IFR for the entire flight.

Arrr:ok:

[Clearedtoreenter]

Ok, so if you have an instructor rating with CIR and no NVFR, you can train students for NVFR(?) (i.e. aerial work)

[kalavo]

Ok, so if you have an instructor rating with CIR and no NVFR, you can train students for NVFR(?) (i.e. aerial work)

Absolutely. Providing their CIR is current and they are night current.

This situation actually annoyed the $#!! out of a friend of mine. He got his grade one instructor ticket, had hundreds of hours at night, and trained over 70 students for their NVFR rating.

Called CASA and asked if he could be issued with an NVFR so he didnt need to renew his instrument rating and was told it couldn't be done without him sitting the flight test for the NVFR. Previous experience was irrelevant, for the rating to be issued the requirements are a flight test. :)

[Roger Copy Ta]

Cheers Zhaadum. The rules are a shambled mess but you've managed to get some structure there. :D

Appreciate your effort :ok: Makes more sense now.


Excuse my ignorance, but why would you want to down grade to VFR while on a IFR flight? What are the advantages?

[Zhaadum]

Roger Copy Ta,

I can't think of any advantages during a flight to downgrade to VFR.
Services are less, no traffic info OCTA unless you ask and that is workload
dependant. IFR is so much easier!

The only 2 situations I can think of when you may wish to depart NVFR is:

1. The boss wants to skimp on the $2.50 of enroute nav charges and ferry
an aircraft at night VFR for a IFR charter the next day :yuk:, or

2. You have a required IFR instrument (ie pitot heat) go U/S :sad: and the
WX is suitable for NVFR, you have the required recency and aeronautical
experience, then you can fly NVFR to get home. :)

Otherwise you are stuck either till the snag is fixed or, the next day
comes and the WX is ok for VFR.

Cheers,

Z.:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"... but why would you want to down grade to VFR while on a IFR flight?"

Cause you can't maintain continuous 2-way comms with Centre.

Dr :8

[Cap'n Arrr]

Zhaadum and FTDK are on the money... NVFR is less restrictive WRT equipment/reporting/minimas, and there are a few occasions you may come across where the flight cannot be continued IFR, but it can NVFR.

Also WRT NVFR training with a CIR, you need to meet both RECENT and TOTAL AERONAUTICAL experience for the NVFR to do it (or to fly NVFR under a CIR at all for that matter). You basically need to be able to apply to do a NVFR test if you want to in order to fly NVFR with an instrument rating, in which case I would suggest you find a testing officer and just do the test, since the NVFR is perpetual, and if the CIR expires you lose all night privileges.

Arrrr