Safety Brief - Is it compulsory to listen?

[Lord Lucan]

I saw the following statement made on the UK Guardian "Comment is Free" Blog today. And I wondered if this could be true?

It all sounds a bit much to me!

Personally I fly only freight, but I would be interested in what passenger captains would do if they heard their cabin crew issue such threats to passengers.

A plane trip on a UK airline, from Alicante to London. Most of us on the plane fly two or three times a year.

Airline stewardess demonstrates life jacket while plane revs engines at start of take off. After the first 10 times we know the drill. Man sitting on a seat in the aisle continues with book. He's seen the drill before, knows where the exits are, no need to watch.

Stewardess insists he watches. Man explains he knows it all by heart and recites the relevant passage. Stewardess tells him he has 3 seconds to put book away, sit up and watch, else the plane is stopped, he gets slung in jail and faces £5,000 fine for causing a safety hazard in plane.

Man says, very well, I would like to take note of your name. Quick as a flash, stewardess turns over badge and refuses to reveal identity.


http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/edward_pearce/2007/12/zero_tolerance.html


I have been flying as pax on average about once a week, for years and NEVER listen to the brief, and would get really miffed if I were treated in such a manner.

[marlowe]

Im sure if the Captain said there was an emergency you would be begging for the crew to go through the safety demo one more time! Are you one of the mobile phone/blackberry guys who always try and make yourself look important by having to press buttons and take calls? How would you feel if i came into your workplace and as you tried to have a meeting talked loudly and made phone calls bet you would be peed off. Iwould bet money that if it really came down to it, you dont know that emergency procedure as well as you think you do.

[Stampe]

I,ve been an airline pilot for 30 years.I pay attention to the safety briefing always whenever travelling as a passenger even on aircraft types I know really well.Just as we always carry out a review of the rejected take off drill in the cockpit before every departure.The safety brief refreshes the drill in your mind and highlights the nearest exit to you for that particular flight.An accident with poor lighting ,smoke and confusion is not the time to start finding that out.Apart from all that its good manners to pay attention and show respect to someone carrying out their duty of looking after your welfare.I have enormous regard for the level of safety training my colleagues in the cabin have to undertake.Cabin crew well know who has paid attention you might find you get better service during the flight if you show an interest in this most important of their responsibilities.:ok:

[Lord Lucan]

marlowe Im sure if the Captain said there was an emergency you would be begging for the crew to go through the safety demo one more time!

No Marloe I would not. Because I already know it

So do many, many other pax. And flight crew who are on board as pax certainly know it!

[marlowe]

yea course you do! ah!! your the know it all onboard always one

[bushbolox]

Yawwwwwwnn, Let the bitching begin

[woodpecker]

Try closing your eyes when you leave the aircraft next time, cos that what its like when the thing is full of smoke. The best you can hope for is crawling along the floor following the emergency lights to the exit, assuming you are proceeding towards it and not away from it.

Before every take off we go through an emergency brief in the flightdeck, it's an insult to our highly trained cabin crew if you cant be bothered to spend a couple of minutes watching theirs.

With regard to your quoted incident, I applaud the cabin crews actions. Passengers with books, newspapers and the like distract those who are trying to follow the briefing.

I suppose you also rush for the emergency exit row for the extra leg room.

[flutter]

Lord Lucan, do you know the safety demonstration for every airline and type of aircraft flying the skies? They are different!

Even if I position as a passenger I watch the demo. It's polite to watch the crew AND provides you with what you need to know.

[JEM60]

I ALWAYS follow the same procedure when on the ground. I note the exits, look behind as well, and plan my escape. 'jump over those poeple in front, 'cos they are not listening, and won't know what to do, kick that big guy in the teeth because he won't know either. Etc. On the ground, I can do something to save myself. In the air, I can do nothing, so don't worry at all. I ALWAYS read the card, mainly because it encourages the guy next to meto do the same, otherwise they probably wouldn't bother.

[tonker]

I always listen and make a point of showing that i am, looking around cabin at doors etc nodding with humble thanks. It's amazing how the service improves if your spotted.:ok:

ps if mr bmw blackberry is on the phone,tutting and tipping your head back dramaticaly will only amplify your support for your fellow aviators/trixs

[Frank Furillo]

Lucan,I really reallly do hope one day when the unthinkable happens you are not in my way or I WILL GO OVER YOU. Yep, I also take note even when positioning on the same type of aircraft I fly for the very same reasons as all the others. Not to do so is Ignorant, stupid and just shows how much an a**ole you are:O

[Lord Lucan]

I cannot see how it is impolite to carry on quietly with one's own business. In my experience only about 10-20% of the pax watch the brief. Are we all being rude?

And just how is listening to the brief for the thousandth time going to help me find the exit or get the mask down?

If I am sitting by an emergency exit I read the instructions or, on the rare occasion when one is given, I listen to the personal brief given to pax sitting in these rows.

I can see this touches a nerve with some who need to fling insults. Why does my not listening to the briefing imply that "I would not know what to do?"
I have been a professional pilot for 35 years, I probably have a reasonable idea of what to do!

I say again: Just how is listening to the brief for the thousandth time going to help me find the exit or get the mask down?

[Stampe]

Lord Lucan as professional flight crew you of all people should be setting an example to fellow passengers when travelling in the cabin.How do you expect to be treated when operating if you display poor attitude to another flight crews cabin colleagues.Respect is won by a profession not given by right.

[Final 3 Greens]

Lord Lucan

You are either a fool or a wind up merchant, possibly both.

Even if one knows the aircraft backwards, one should pay attention 'pour encourager les autres.'

[Lord Lucan]

A large percentage of the pax are frequent flyers and ALREADY KNOW IT and do not bother to listen. This is the reality of the situation. Why should I "encourage" them?

I say again:

Just how is listening to the brief for the thousandth time going to help me find the exit or get the mask down?

[Clarence Oveur]

I already know itHow do you know when you never listen?

Besides, by ignoring the safety briefing, you have in effect relieved the airline of any responsibility they had for your safety.

[richardnunney]

Apart from being good manners, it is always a good excuse to check out the eye candy :)

[bealine]

Originally Posted by Lord Lucan
I already know it

AS far as Aviation Circles are concerned - Lord Lucan is an esteemed and ridiculous "Tosser of the First Order!!!"

[llanfairpg]

Safety Brief - Is it compulsory to listen?

If the stewardess has underarm hair and a moustache--yes

[Bealzebub]

There is a legal requirement on the Captain to ensure that all of the passengers are suitably briefed, however there is no compulsion on the passenger to listen. All passengers are carried in accordance with the standard conditions of carriage which would almost certainly allow the Captain to offload or refuse carriage to any individual or group that he felt were refusing to comply with the legal requirements.

The first line of this quote is, Airline stewardess demonstrates life jacket while plane revs engines at start of take off, which probably sums up the overall accuracy of the rest of the article, so I would be inclined to take the article with a hefty pinch of salt.

The problem with safety briefings is that there is a balance between achieving the required level of information transfer without terrifying the individual, and as we all know the product is often fairly bland as a result. However in a real emergency it is often the case that the sudden onset of frightening and extremely high stress reality causes the human brain to, in effect, shut down a large part of the reasoning centres to concentrate on the necessary "fight or flight response". This has the effect of shutting out responses that are not already part of the short term memory process or that are naturally instinctive. This is why we as pilots brief before every take off and landing even though the items we brief on are already something we should know. In other words we are briefing the fact that there is a real possibility that in the next few minutes this scenario could happen for real.

Passengers often mock the fact that they really don't need to be told how to operate a seatbelt, however investigation has shown that in some emergency situations evacuation has been delayed by people wasting time trying to unfasten the seatbelt. That is the one they are instinctively used to.........in their car, where the buckle is down the side of the seat and not in their lap. Those who listened carefully to the briefing should have the advantage of having this information in the short term memory.

As a pilot it is quite astonishing that you do not listen to the briefing. You of all people should understand the importance of the short term memory refresher. Even though you fly freight, you should have the common courtesy to pay attention to the crew member demonstrating this information (where appropriate), and even if you still consider the information superfluous to yourself, it sets a very poor example to other passengers around you if you give the impression of not paying attention.

For what it may be worth, I know the briefing format as well (as do most crewmembers) but in an emergency I am particularly qualified to not only lend valuable assistance, but also to ensure I do not become an additional part of the problem. That is best achieved by listening carefully to the briefing and hopefully encouraging others to as well.

[perkin]

You claim to be an ATPL holder...tell me one thing - are you going to stop running through your checklists before your next take off because you've done them 1000 times before?? I suspect not...the cabin safety briefing is surely there for the same reason as the flight deck checklists...Also, as many others have said before me, its just basic common courtesy to allow the CC to go about their job without interruption and to let those who are sensible enough to watch/listen to the briefing do so.

[kingdee]

e.g Some of the 737=8s the lifejacket is in the panel above your head and not under the seat.Just imagine you looking under yr seat to fine its not there.You need to have resepct:ok:

[PPRuNe Radar]

As a minimum it is common courtesy to listen to a briefing which is for the benefit of everyone on board.

The aircraft commander also has a legal obligation (for a UK registered aircraft) to ensure that passengers are adequately briefed (even if this is done on his/her behalf by a qualified crew member). The only way to ensure that his/her responsibilities are discharged is to make sure that everyone is paying attention. That is a 'reasonable step' in my book.

53. —(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom shall take all reasonable steps to ensure—

(a) before the aircraft takes off on any flight, that all passengers are made familiar with the position and method of use of emergency exits, safety belts (with diagonal shoulder strap where required to be carried), safety harnesses and (where required to be carried) oxygen equipment, lifejackets and the floor path lighting system and all other devices required by or under this Order and intended for use by passengers individually in the case of an emergency occurring to the aircraft; and

(b) that in an emergency during a flight, all passengers are instructed in the emergency action which they should take.

As others have said, if anyone who thought it unworthy to pay attention during the safety brief gets in my way during any emergency evacuation, I'll be walking over the top of them with no hesitation :ok:

[Married a Canadian]

I find it funny that as so many people seem to have heard the safety briefings a thousand times before and don't need to hear them again...that on all the flights I go on there still seem to be numerous people standing up with the seatbelt signs on, undoing their seatbelts whilst taxiing.....going to sleep without seat belts on etc etc. I annoyed a passenger next to me by refusing to let him stand up when we were flying through severe turbulence. When I pointed to the seatbelt sign...his response was "So?"

These people are often the ones who don't need to hear the safety brief again for the "1000th" time...and yet don't seem to feel as though it applies to them when parts of it are used on a "normal" flight. And then whose actions can compromise others.

What steams me most of all...and I mentioned this on another thread. The Air France incident in Toronto...which the report came out last week..made note that over 50% of passengers stopped to collect their personal belongings from the overheads before exiting the aircraft. Are these the same people who have heard the safety brief for the "1000th" time?? I seem to recall the briefings saying not to take personal belongings with you?

Lord Lucan ...if you are have been flying for 35 years...do you skip all preflight checks cos you have a reasonable idea of what to do? You must have done them over a thousand times? What changes from being pilot to being a passenger??

Double standards by passengers and crew alike it seems. For 2 minutes of a flight that can be anything up to 13 hours...we seem to be above something that is designed to provide information to help us in the event of something going wrong. And yet time and time again it is shown that passengers don't know about the seatbelt signs or hand luggage..or opening a compartment so nothing falls out etc etc etc. Sigh!!

Still if anything...I hope that at least in providing the briefing the airline is covered so if someone sues over something that went wrong which is talked about in the briefing the airline can say "Sorry tough luck!"

[llanfairpg]

There is a legal requirement on the Captain to ensure that all of the passengers are suitably briefed, however there is no compulsion on the passenger to listen.Not quite correct (calling all pilots please read the ANO)

The ANO states that you must obey any reasonable request or order given to you by the commander of an aircraft. What this means is that if the captain orders you to engage in a sexual act in the toilets you may refuse but if he asks you to listen and watch the safety briefing you are obliged by law to do so. ( I have been campaigning for years to get the former request written into law but have been told it is a load of cock)

My opening PA includes this briefing

"The cabin crew will shortly give you a safety briefing please listen and watch and give your full attention to the crew." (That is an order not a request)

Anybody who has not watched the briefing could be gulity of endangering the aircraft as they may slow down an evacuation. It is an offence at anytime to endanger an aircraft.

If a cabin crew member reported to me that xyz passenger had not looked or listened to the briefing technically I cannot fly.

[llanfairpg]

Passengers often mock the fact that they really don't need to be told how to operate a seatbelt, however investigation has shown that in some emergency situations evacuation has been delayed by people wasting time trying to unfasten the seatbelt. That is the one they are instinctively used to.........in their car, where the buckle is down the side of the seat and not in their lap. Those who listened carefully to the briefing should have the advantage of having this information in the short term memory.

As a matter of interest twas I that was responsible for that change. OK, so I am a big head!

[llondel]

As someone with an interest in what happens when things go wrong and why it happens, I do pay attention to the safety briefing, if only to confirm that it's the same as last time. I tend to confirm the nearest exits before taking my seat. I usually get to go through the safety card in great detail, explaining all the symbols and drawings to my young son who wants to know what they all mean.

When they do aircraft certification tests, are all the passengers briefed as per a normal briefing? If so, perhaps it would be interesting to brief half of them beforehand and not do an in-cabin briefing to simulate real life a bit better as half the passengers would be ignorant of what to do?

[Married a Canadian]

This part I find interesting

Anybody who has not watched the briefing could be gulity of endangering the aircraft as they may slow down an evacuation. It is an offence at anytime to endanger an aircraft.


Again I link this to the Air France report as this is most recent...and I think is directly related to this topic. It has been mentioned on another thread that a group of passengers is suing various groups in relation to this incident.

Now granted the evacuation of the aircraft was done speedily and efficiently...and the cabin crew came out of this with great credit.

My question is....if the passengers who took their personal belongings with them were found to have ignored the safety briefing...and the briefing tells people not to take personals in the event of an evacuation...are they able to sue other bodies when their actions may have endangered others aswell?

Can you prove someone has not listened to the information?

[llanfairpg]

This part I find interestingCan I first of all compliment you on finding me interesting it dosnt happen very often, so my wife says.

My question is....if the passengers who took their personal belongings with them were found to have ignored the safety briefing...and the briefing tells people not to take personals in the event of an evacuation...are they able to sue other bodies when their actions may have endangered others aswell?

Can you prove someone has not listened to the information?More importantly can you prove some has UNDERSTOOD the safetly briefing. A Japanese passenger listening to a safety briefing will not probably fully understand it if they do not speak English. Also do not forget we sometimes carry people who are mentally impaired, (yes apart from the crew)
I would say as a non lawyer that you could sue someone for endangering an aircraft if they stopped to pick up personal belongings. The safety certificate given to a public transport aircraft which I believe means it can be evacutaed in 90 secs using all exits, is not based on picking up personal belongings but what do you call personal belongings, if I take my copy of 'Airline Babes' thats personal belongings, however if I try to collect my Double Base it could be a very different matter.

[llanfairpg]

When they do aircraft certification tests, are all the passengers briefed as per a normal briefing? If so, perhaps it would be interesting to brief half of them beforehand and not do an in-cabin briefing to simulate real life a bit better as half the passengers would be ignorant of what to do?

Yes they are briefed but of course they all know what they are going to do so are fully mentally prepared.

Take my advice always try and sit by an emergency exit, I always do.

[Bealzebub]

There is a legal requirement on the Captain to ensure that all of the passengers are suitably briefed, however there is no compulsion on the passenger to listen.Not quite correct (calling all pilots please read the ANO)

At the risk of being pedantic, we have read the ANO. PPRuNe Radar has been kind enough to quote it above.

The relevant portion to your statement is, the commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom shall take all reasonable steps to ensure—

It says reasonable because clearly there are situations where you cannot ensure that an individual has listened or understood for any number of reasons. Young children, passengers with certain disabilities, passengers carried in "special" circumstances etc. The ANO does not state that a passenger must listen, only that the Captain has taken all reasonable steps to ensure the passengers have been briefed.

As I already stated in the previous post there are conditions that allow the Captain to refuse to carry any person that he feels is acting in contravention of the conditions of carriage and this would provide for such a sanction if it was deemed appropriate.

"The cabin crew will shortly give you a safety briefing please listen and watch and give your full attention to the crew." (That is an order not a request)

Unfortunetaly (and we all do it) that is a request and not an order, the use of the word "please" made it one.

If a cabin crew member reported to me that xyz passenger had not looked or listened to the briefing technically I cannot fly.

Actually yes you can, provided you have taken all reasonable steps to ensure compliance. Again you have the sanction to remove a passenger prior to departure if that passenger is being willfully obstructive or indeed for any other reason you see fit, however the ANO| should be read for what it actually says and not for what you would like it to say.

[Basil]

In the interests of example to passengers reading this thread I'd like to add my name to the list of professional pilots who watch the briefing and read the safety card.
In the UNLIKELY event that it goes wrong, it's going to go wrong SPECTACULARLY. I will be in a state of shock and should have mentally rehearsed my post event actions.

I run through:
Where the doors are.
How they're opened.
Have a think about opening (Check outside for fire or obstruction, check in automatic, where's the manual inflation toggle - just not your day if you need to use that!)
Where am I in relation to the front, rear, wings?
Is floor level lighting fitted?
Where is my lifejacket stowed and does it feel as if there's actually one in there?
. . and a few other little bits and pieces.

SO, if captains with thousands of hours flying big jets consider it a good idea to pay attention, it may be worthwhile for everyone to have a look at what they're going to do.

Remember: it's still safer than your car :ok:

[StaceyF]

I fly frequently and, hands in the air, admit I was guilty of feigning interest in the safety drill. After all, the plane isn't going to crash, is it? And if it does, we're all burnt crispy persons anyway.

Last December, however, I flew with my partner from Bristol - Ivalo on one of these "visit Lapland and see Father Christmas on a daytrip" excursions. We don't have kids, it was just going to be an experience.

As the only two adults without children on the flight, we were seated in the emergency exit seats............loads of legroom, bargain.

Then the cabin crew supervisor came upto us just before takeoff and said, in hushed tones, "if we run into problems, we WILL need your assistance in evacuating the aircraft".

I can assure you, I've never listened more intently, then or now, to the safety drill.......

[Lord Lucan]

Well, I seem to hold an unpopular position here.

I will just make a few more points and then shut-up

Of course I perform check lists when I am the pilot. It is part of my professional duty to do so. I would say I am more particular about this than many of the FO’s with whom I fly. I find in general there is a tendency to recitation rather than really checking – for what it’s worth.

However, when I am a passenger, this is a different matter. Now I am a member of the public. I take responsibility for my own safety, and I base my actions on my assessment of risk. I know where the exits are without the briefing, because I look, And, lets face it, most passenger cabins are pretty standard.

To all those who seem to worry about air crashes, I would ask:

Do you wear a crash helmet while driving?

Why not. It is easy and pretty cheap and it will save your life more often than an obsessive interest in safety briefings.

[Two's in]

Legal, compulsory, mandatory, ANO compliance blah, blah, blah...

It's just bloody appalling manners to disregard an aviation professional who is taking the trouble to explain how you might save your life and the lives of others around you, should the unfortunate moment arise. Any claims to ignore the briefing by fellow aviation professionals is surely bogus.

[BEagle]

Well, I had 113 flights as a passenger in 2007 - on CRJ200, CRJ700, BAe146, AvroRJ85, B737, A300 and A319,320,321.

All are different. I always stop whatever I'm doing and watch the brief. Even though I can probably repeat the 'Sauerstoffmaske aus der Kabindecke' speech in my sleep, it is commonsense and good manners to stop and listen. I also read the card - because I don't want to have to remember whether it's a rotate and push, lift and push or other type of door opening if I need to get out in a hurry.

Mind you, the pursers do have a bit of dry humour at times - the theatrical pause when they say "..emergency exits, which are marked by the word......exit" does make me want to say "No ****, Sherlock".

"Right you lot. Sit down, shut up, strap in and listen. Don't annoy the girls, you'll be fed when we feed you and we'll get there when we do. Got that OK?"

[nooluv]

I think the cabin crew play a part in how attentive the passengers are to safety announcements.
On a recent 738 flight, Sydney - Brisbane, the two (beautiful) female flight attendants demonstrated the safety equipment, as the male crewmember conducted the briefing "In the event that this flight turns into a cruise!, your life jackets are located under the seats" etc.
Believe me, there was no one playing with their blackberry's.

[radeng]

I guess I'm just awkward.

I always listen to and talk along with the safety briefing, check the life jacket is actually present (it's not unknown for them to have been nicked) despite having flown 80+ times last year.

It's only polite.

Even though we could be better off with a safety briefing before getting on the motorway from the airport - which is far more dangeorus than flying!

[mr.777]

My top tip...when you get on, count how may rows you are away from the nearest exit. You may not be able to see them in an emergency but you can count them by touch. I do this religiously whenever I fly, bit OCD I know but who knows..may just save my life one day.

[Avman]

This subject has been done to death over and over again. OK, I do watch the Safety Briefing as a courtesy to the crew, but in actual fact I have already briefed myself before the demo has even begun. That's because if the $hite hits the fan I want to be prepared and I have a plan (well more than one, depending on the circumstances).

Reading comments on forums from crews advocating the wisdom and courtesy of paying attention to Safety Briefings, I am remimded the fact that one of the flights I regularly travel on always includes a positioning crew (in uniform) on board. On all occasions I have observed how they have continued to chat and joke with each other as the demo is given! What a great example to the rest of the pax that is!

[Cool Wavy NG738]

We have one widebody type of aircraft in our company and at one time three different cabin and exit layouts, and different exit types in each part of the aircraft type in some cases. I doubt if it is possible for a regular customer with us to completely remember and memorise all of these.

It's politeness and good manners to watch the briefing whether you are customer or crew, on our smaller type I quite often stand visible in front of the customers whilst I read off the demo and 99% of people watch, its far more personable and gains fuller attention than a video demo.

For those who don't, you are quite likely the ignoramuses that will probably cause a problem during an evacuation through your lack of situational awarness and knowledge of a particular aircraft's layout or safety features/equipment, and could possibly kill others and yourself through your ignorance in the event of an emergency.

I'm not sure that anyone not watching should be subject to the threat of arrest/action unless they are being disruptive, I think that there are far too many cabin crew that are a bit too quick to steam in with ultimatums when they are simply not required and when a polite couple of words will usually suffice.

[Clarence Oveur]

Reading comments on forums from crews advocating the wisdom and courtesy of paying attention to Safety Briefings, I am remimded the fact that one of the flights I regularly travel on always includes a positioning crew (in uniform) on board. On all occasions I have observed how they have continued to chat and joke with each other as the demo is given! What a great example to the rest of the pax that is!When in uniform you are a representative of your company and your profession. It does not matter whether you are on or off duty. The behaviour Avman describes can only be described as irresponsible. I would suggest a letter to the management of the company would be in order.

[LH2]

I saw the following statement made on the UK Guardian "Comment is Free" Blog today. And I wondered if this could be true?

In addition to article 53 of the ANO, quoted by Pprune Radar, articles 77 and 78 also apply.

[cdtaylor_nats]

In an evacuation situation, how is anything a passenger is liable to do likely to endanger the AIRCRAFT? I can see them endangering themselves, other passengers and possibly the crew - but not the aircraft itself.

[llanfairpg]

Actually yes you can, provided you have taken all reasonable steps to ensure compliance. Again you have the sanction to remove a passenger prior to departure if that passenger is being willfully obstructive or indeed for any other reason you see fit, however the ANO| should be read for what it actually says and not for what you would like it to say.Thank you and I look forward to you quoting the test case that proves your point and also in regard to the use of the word please.

How the ANO is interpreted is up to me as the commander, the law may be interpreted in many different ways but on my aircraft it is only interpreted in one way-mine.

[undersiege]

You should watch. If it come down to it, I will not come back and save your arse when you really have no idea what to do. TRUST ME , I HAVE BEEN IN A MINIMUM TIME DITCHING IN THE LAST 10 YEARS. The :mad: like you who did not watch, most did not live to tell the story. I have worked for airlines for the last 15 years. As I said, within the last 10 years I have had a ditching. When it hit's the fan,you have no idea what it is really like.

Undersiege.

[Contacttower]

I wrote this on another thread, but I think it's worth posting here again:

When the hijacked Ethiopian 767 crashed off the coast of Africa it became clear that a number of the passengers had...despite being told by the captain minutes before impact NOT to inflate their life jackets...done just that: inflated their life jackets inside the cabin.

The results were predictable, when the plane hit the water it filled so quickly passengers had to dive under water in order to get to the exits. Those who had not inflated their life jackets could hold their breath and dive for it. Those who had inflated their life jackets floated to the top of the cabin and were trapped against the ceiling.

Listen to the safety briefing, it might one day save your life.


Lord Lucan, I'm sure you do know the brief off by heart...and I'm sure you'd do fine in an emergency (not that I approve of not watching the briefing...I think it is rude not to listen and as I said above it could save your life)...but honestly one must question the sanity of someone who admits to not listening to the briefing on here, I mean you must have realised you were going to get a broadside a la PPRuNe when you first posted.

Forgive me for saying this but it just sounds like a wind up.

[VS-LHRCSA]

I also believe that in the Ethiopian incident they found passengers still strapped in their seats, with scratch marks on their side indicating that they were frantically trying to unbuckle their seatbelts as if they were in a car.

I flew for a charter airline where it was compulsory for passengers to pay attention. We were instructed to approach passengers reading or talking and ask them to hold back for a few minutes.

Charter aircraft are very different from scheduled aircraft, except for EZY/FR. The high density requires a different approach to SEP. By nature, SEP training and implementation is much stricter on UK charter airlines. For example, there are many more restricted seats - all aisle seats in the first two rows and the last two rows for example.

The chances of a passenger to be travelling week in, week out on a Monarch flight are slim, not impossible but slim. The passenger profile on ALC is going to be very different to, say the Friday night FRA on BA.

[Contacttower]

I flew for a charter airline where it was compulsory for passengers to pay attention. We were instructed to approach passengers reading or talking and ask them to hold back for a few minutes.



Sounds like a very sensible airline.

I have to say I find the idea that I might under extreme stress forget how to undo the seatbelt very scary. I listen to the safety demo.

[Timmyflyer]

i have been working as cabin crew for many years and have seen that as flying has become such routine for many of us, that passengers take less notice of the safety demo's as much as they used to.
In an ideal world it would be great to see all watching me or the video screens, but alas thats not gonna happen. I have got past the stage of worrying if someone is watching because they are reading or writing, that is up to them.
I do take exception to people who like to continue with their loud conversations during the demo.
I would politely ask that they put their conversation on 'hold' for the few minutes the demo takes. I do this not for their concern, but for the other people around them, that may not have flown much before(if at all, there are some still out there)and do generally want to listen and see what they would have to do in the event of an emergency.
I would like to think that i am acting in the best interests of the many, rather than treating a pasenger badly.

Merry xmas and happy flying to you all.

[radeng]

A couple of years back, I was on a LGW to VCE flight on BA. Safety briefing starts, about half the PAX carried on talking and not paying attention. Purser stops the briefing and gets on the PA and tells the PAX in no uncertain terms that this briefing is for their safety and and it also affects her, so they BETTER listen! When she stops, a few PAX clap, with cries of 'hear, hear'. Re runs safety briefing in silence, and gets attention - and a number of PAX later congratulating her on her stand.
She did seem to preene herself a bit with getting some PAX support - I suspect it doesn't always happen.
I'm surprised nobody else appears to check that there REALLY is a lifejacket under the seat and it's not been nicked. I have on one occasion found on BA that it wasn't there, and it took about 20 seconds after telling the CC and them checking, for another one to appear. And we hadn't even pushed back!

[G-BPED]

I feel the bottom line on all of this can be summed up in one word "MANNERS"

Whether you are a first time pax, frequent flyer or crew travelling in the pax cabin as the original poster states.

It is just pure manners to listen and pay attention when a member of the cabin crew is addressing everyone.

I don't give a toss whether you have flown thousands of miles, know where all the exits are, can find the emergency rows blindfolded or can put your life jacket on with one hand still on your G & T.

Neither do I care if you need to get that last email squeezed out of your Blackberry.

Just shut up for 5 minutes and pay attention and show some manners. Manners are something that is lacking in many parts of the world and, I am not just hitting at some of todays youth. It's prevalent in many age groups.

Ok, rant mode off.

Happy Christmas all :)

[2Fly2Serve]

My airline is required to provide a Safety Demonstration but the passenger can choose whether to watch it or not. (Written in front of me in black and white.)

It normally goes down to an individual crew member and how conduct themselves that can cause this situation happening.

Although i generally don't ask passengers to give full attention if standing in the cabin i am confident that a PA introducing the demo is always made (generally on more then one occasion advising full attention) and that fellow crew may wish to encourage full attention if they are happy to challenge a passenger.

[radeng]

Isn't there a valid argument that those who don't listen are actually a potential danger to those who have listened, because of panic or failure to know what to do?

[2Fly2Serve]

Radeng - An argument maybe, but obviously not important enough to warrant a policy in which it is mandatory everyone HAS to observe the Safety Demo. A passenger knowledgeable or not may still freeze up in shock etc...in a real evacuation and respond differently anyway.

As for passengers at overwings, exits etc... on my airline we brief those passengers individually and make sure you they understand the instructions and to read the information in front of them and safety card. Again we don't force anyone and we are not happy we move them. We don't even have to move non English speaking passengers from sitting next to the exit.

[bealine]

Isn't there a valid argument that those who don't listen are actually a potential danger to those who have listened, because of panic or failure to know what to do?

Somewhere on the internet, there is a video of an evacuation from an Iberia aircraft with much evidence of panic, pax collecting stuff from overheads and still wearing shoes as they went down the escape slides without a thought for the poor sods behind who might not have any slide left!

Anyone who obviously doesn't pay attention to the safety brief deserves a swift kick in the nuts! Even if you know it backwards, it is common courtesy to listen - after all it's only about 2 minutes out of your life, if that!

.........as for crews pi55ing about during the brief, it's irritating but it's gone on since Pontius was a Pilot! The safety brief is often a good opportunity for a practical joke on the newbie - like smearing bitter-tasting "Stop N Grow", or hot "Tabasco" sauce on the mouthpiece of the lifejacket or a bit of mascara around the lifejacket neck so that the demonstrator either grimaces from the taste or gets black smudges on the face or neck! It's pretty harmless fun, all things considered!

Happy Christmas Everyone - we're almost there!

[Basil]

crews pi55ing about during the brief
"Doors to manual and crossdress."
" . . . and there is a whistle to attract passing sailors."
The Air Scotia line by camp steward as stewardess demonstrated manual inflation "She does that awfully well."
:O:):}

[PAXboy]

radengI'm surprised nobody else appears to check that there REALLY is a lifejacket under the seat and it's not been nicked. I have on one occasion found on BA that it wasn't there, and it took about 20 seconds after telling the CC and them checking, for another one to appear. And we hadn't even pushed back!When I did the check and found it missing, the CC looked at me blank faced and no replacement arrived. As there was open water about 5km from the runway .... I'll leave you to guess the name of carrier (not BA) :* but they are OFF my visiting list.

[TwinAisle]

A salutary tale about frequent fliers....

A number of years ago, during a spell in my career when I was flying as a pax perhaps 100+ times per year, I took a flight in the WTP cabin of a BA747, just after that class had been introduced. Next to me was a guy who started to smirk as I broke off my conversation with him to listen to the safety brief. He made some crack about me being "not used to planes, I've heard this all before".

Like one of the previous posters, I also bent forward to touch my lifejacket - my neighbour thought this very odd - but was was odder was that I couldn't find the lifejacket. It couldn't have been under the seat (there is a footrest there) and the seat isn't wide enough to be in the centre console. The brief said that it would be "under my seat", so after the brief was done, I asked a passing CC member. She seemed slightly surprised that I couldn't find it, then after a brief inspection (during which time my neighbour was making sarcastic comments about if I were a real frequent flyer, I would know where it was) - she admitted she couldn't find it either. Eventually the CSD found it, in a pocket in the extending foot rest. Not obvious, not placarded and not spelt out in the brief. (CSD was shocked, took my details and passed them on to BA, and very rapidly I had a nice letter, and the brief in WTP was slightly modified, as were the seat back cards).

If I had taken Lord Lucan's advice, and assumed that I didn't need to listen to the brief, since both I and my neighbour had flown soooooo much, the first time I would have noticed that I couldn't find the lifejacket would have been a small amount of time before BOAC became BOAT....

I always listen. Why is it so hard? It is a few minutes out of my life. It is a mark of good manners to listen to, and watch someone, who is imparting information - especially information that may help to save my life. Anyone who thinks that what they are doing is more important than listening to a fellow human being who is talking to them is rude and ignorant enough to be beneath contempt.

[Contacttower]

Not obvious, not placarded and not spelt out in the brief. (CSD was shocked, took my details and passed them on to BA, and very rapidly I had a nice letter, and the brief in WTP was slightly modified, as were the seat back cards).



I too have found that my life jacket wasn't where the brief said it was.

I forget the airline but I remember once the brief mentioning three different places the life jacket might be depending on what class you were in. It took me a moment to think where mine might be...and it took me a while to actually find it. If I hadn't found it prior to take off and we had had an emergency, in the dark and in the panic it would have taken me ages to find it, if at all.

The other thing (a tip I picked up on here actually) I do is to count the number of seats to the nearest exit during the brief.

[PAXboy]

Yes, I certainly do count seat rows. The only problem with the arrival of middle age is ... remembering the number. :sad:

[JEM60]

Flew with Air Venezuela internally once. Most beautiful girl doing the life jacket demo. When she put her mouth on the inflation tube that got EVERYBODys attention. Walking across the tarmac at Caracas, a guy said to me that it was the first time he had seen a life jacket demo turned into an erotic act, and another remarked that there was NO fear of drowning on that trip!!!!:):)

[Rwy in Sight]

Once again I bring the notion of having the safety demo presented by bikini wearing female staff of suitable calibre. Guys will undoubtly look and the ladies will look to find what are the "defaults" on the appearance of the F/A.
Completely non PC approach but I feel it would work.

Seriously know, it is an issue of manners and the fact that by not observing it puts other's life into danger.

Rwy in Sight

[bealine]

http://www.hatecrimenews.com/watch-video/CTcjJoIWJQ4/Manuito/iberia-6250-emergency-evacuation.html
It is very evident from this footage that passengers hadn't listened to the safety brief - there is panic, they have retrieved their items from the cabin lockers and passengers are wearing shoes as they go down the escape slide.
The selfishness of getting your cabin bag out of the overhead or wearing shoes on the slide is unbelievable - especially as this evacuation was after an engine fire. Stopping just for a second or two to get your laptop could result in people behind you being killed or ripping the slide with your shoes could have fatal consequences for fellow travellers.
...........and there are still :mad: who won't learn!

[radeng]

To avoid the grabbing of baggage, it suggests it could be a good idea to have your passport and wallet in your pocket, rather than in a bag in the overhead.
So you emergency evacuate in a fire, you've no passport, you've no money, no credit cards. Yes the airline will presumably look after you to some extent, but I doubt you'd necessarily get a replacement travel document so easily when you couldn't prove your identity. Similarly, shopping for clothing, unless you were issued a fistful of currency.
One problem in such an evacuation is do you leave your necessary medication behind and rely on the airline/airport to sort you out some more? Then you have the difficulty of convincing the local medicos that you should have these drugs when you've no documentation.
So you can see why some people might really need to grab their bag.

[dgutte]

I have taught my 3 yr old to put her finger on her mouth as soon as she hears anyone on the mic.

Also, she loves to look at the safety card, but always wants to know when she gets to go on the yellow slide! :eek:

[bizzy liz]

My first post, be kind,,,,,,

Hello all, back from AGP (Malaga) to Dublin today on Ryanair. Super crew, on time etc. etc. no probs.
Sat in the emergency exit row for the long legs. Guy in the aisle seat STOOD UP to retrieve his fleece from bin while crew was giving the safety talk. I couldn't believe it!
The crew member nearest nearly lost her mind (but in a good way). She forced him back to his seat pronto, and he was annoyed with her!
When the drill was finished I said to him " they are doing an important job, and you should have some respect you twit". He looked at me and said (in English) "I am from Dusseldorf, I don't understand Irish language. The CC was Spanish, speaking in English.
I have only the highest respect for C\C who have to deal with morons like this.
Anyway, same bloke went to the toilet after captain gave a warning that final approach was imminent. Same C\C saw his fleece on the seat and asked me to put it in the bin, when I explained it wasn't mine, and our pax was in the loo she nearly fainted. I looked back and he was placed in an empty seat at back of A/C. He was last off the plane as he couldn't get to the bin to extract his bags, he he he he he.:D

[Tolsti]

I did 4 short hops on Swiss at the end of the year and was interested to note that in their introduction to the safety briefing that it was ''obligatory to listen''.

On the last flight from Zurich into LCY the cabin crew member explained further that this was a new policy on Swiss. Don't know it it had any effect though.

[Tigger4Me]

I travelled on Ryanair last Friday back Monday OPO/STN/OPO. On both journeys the member of CC making the majority of announcements, including the safety briefing, had a thick accent. OPO/STN was a lovely girl who sounded German and the return was a lad who sounded Spanish but whose name was Asian I believe. Now the majority of pax on both flights seemed to be either Portuguese or Spanish and as I had great difficulty understanding my own language whilst spoken with these accents, what chance for the foreigners for who English is not their first language, if at all?

I was always under the impression that the safety briefing had to be performed in the languages of the two countries that you are travelling between. Obviously I am wrong as this was not the case here, though it does happen on TAP. However, as some announcements (sorry advertisements) on these Ryanair flights were pre-recorded, would it not make sense for the safety briefing to be done that way also, then it would be understood by English and other nationalities alike?

Well done to the CC on the return on Monday evening. He also stopped the briefing as the majority of the pax seemed to think that, just because they couldn’t understand English, this was an opportunity to talk excitedly about their weekend at the London sales. Not until the cabin went quiet did he continue with the briefing. Top marks also to the CC who moved non-English speaking pax from the rear exit row.

[moggiee]

I think Lord Lucan has a valid point.

Safety briefs are like checklists - the more often you do them/listen to them the more familiar they become, right up the point where you know them, off by heart.

Obviously types vary but if you fly as a passenger 6 times a week in the same type with the same airline, then the SOP does not change. 30 seconds with the safety card and I know where I stand for that aeroplane.

The same does not apply to the infrequent flyer, of course.

The masks, life jackets and seat belts are the same on every airliner I've ever been a passenger in - it's only the number, location and type of exits that varies.

I too am a professional pilot - 25 years in my case. I don't need to listen to the safety brief. However, out of respect for the cabin crew I do look at them and do listen to them - if only out of common courtesy.

[moggiee]

You claim to be an ATPL holder...tell me one thing - are you going to stop running through your checklists before your next take off because you've done them 1000 times before?? I suspect not...the cabin safety briefing is surely there for the same reason as the flight deck checklists...
You're missing the point of what Lord Lucan says.

He knows his checklists and runs through them correctly every time he flies - at least, he does if he's a professional. What he does not need, because he knows them so well, is an instructor to tell him how to do his checklists - that was part of his type rating/class rating.

It's the same with the cabin safety brief - if you've heard the BA 737-400 safety brief 200 times you know it as well as the cabin crew do. They don't need to instruct you on how to fasten a seat belt and wear a life jacket, you can just refresh yourself with regard to your position relative to the exits (the SLF equivalent of checking the ATIS!) and get on with life.

The cabin crew are like your flying instructor - they tell you what to do if you don't already know how. A similar analogy is buying a new car - the dealer tells you how it works, you read the handbook (if you need to) and off you go. After a couple of drives, though, you no longer need to look in the handbook to work out how to operate the windscreen wipers.

[GwynM]

I'm also one of the SLF who checks the lifejacket is there and reads the safety card (partly to see which aircraft I'm on).

In seat Ax a couple of years back I had the temerity to ask where the arrows on the floor were, as it was an airbus instead of the normal boeing, and they were on the side of the left seats, so couldn't be seen from seat A (or B or C). (this was on the LHR-ABZ shuttle)

[Bealzebub]

Safety briefs are like checklists - the more often you do them/listen to them the more familiar they become, right up the point where you know them, off by heart.

I know my kids names off by heart, but whenever I get annoyed with them ( and placed under stress) it is amazing how many times I will use the wrong name. The refresher immediately prior to the (potential) event, places the routine/mundane/previously learned, information back in the forefront of the short term memory. This is important as the fight or flight response during a sudden high stress event, seems to rely on this information and that which is instinctive.

I too am a professional pilot - 25 years in my case. I don't need to listen to the safety brief.

Same here 25 years + but for the reasons I have given above I do need to listen to the safety brief, and in view of my profession I also may need to assist. Just as when I listen to the flight deck briefings, I am making a mental model of what might happen and what my role might be (even if it is only to get out as quickly as possible). Situational awareness doesn't stop because you have placed your flight bag in a hat bin.

Pilots will be especially aware and are sometimes guilty of complacency, but we should guard against it. It is not infrequent flyers that are likely to be the problem, but rather (as shown here) those that feel a short term emergency refresher should be ignored in order to rely on that they learned some time ago be it last year, last month or even yesterday.

[PAXboy]

I thought it would be interesting to post some comments from pax of BA038. It's not about that prang but about the reaction of people when they have been in a prang. These comments are taken from The Independent a quality UK paper (IMHO).

All the lights went off and the oxygen masks came down. There was lots of smoke in the cabin and everyone was in a panic. The two stewardesses were very calm and told everyone to sit down.
Howard Zhong
Confirmation that CC were right on top of the situation from only a few seconds warning.

It was all over so quickly, I didn't really have time to think about it or even to take my shoes off before I jumped down the chute.
Peng Gao

This pax had been injured:
The cabin crew were disarming doors and activating the inflatable slides. People instinctively grabbed for hand luggage but were told to leave it...
Gus Macmillan
Notice the word 'instinctively' grabbed for hand luggage. This is after a full blow crash - not just a precautionary evac due to suspected problem or blown tyres.

Then two amusing comments that you may already have seen:
This man deserves a medal as big as a frying pan.
Unnamed airport worker, about the pilot
That is priceless.

"I turned on Sky News today and there was a press conference on. People were saying that John was a hero and he'd landed the plane. I thought, 'He didn't mention that to me."
Myrene Coward, mother of senior first officer John Coward.
Aren't mothers just wonderful?!