EK time to command

[MR8]

One of the great lures for EK recruitment is the short-ish time to command in Emirates. What can a new joiner actually expect if he joins today? Let's do some basic maths:

Fleet today:
A310 3
A332 29
A343 8
A345 10
B772 3
B772ER 9
B772LR 3
B773 12
B773ER 30

Total 107

What will the fleet look like in the future?
EK ordered 58 A 380's. These aircraft will be delivered as from 2008 for the next few years. Let's say an average of below 1 aircraft per month. (for 2008 it will be less, only 4)
There's also another 48 B777's in the pipeline for the near future (2007-2010), again about 1 aircraft per month.

EK has 1874 pilot, that's 911 captains and 963 first officers. Since some of these FO's are in training to become Cpt, we can take a 50% split to make things easier.

That's about 9 crew per aircraft. Because the new aircraft coming in are more for long haul then the average fleet, let's take 10 crews per aircraft for the new deliveries.

So, until the A350's arrive in 2014 (which will initially replace the older Airbusses and Boeings), the fleet will grow by about 100 aircraft. (Some of the older B777's will be replaced by the new B773ER's arriving).

Basically, this means that (in case of no resignations) a newjoiner today will have to wait at least 5 years for his command.

So, what about those much talked about resignations in EK. How many pilots are ACTUALLY leaving?

The last 10,5 months (since beginning march 2007, EK publishes a seniority liston the crew portal) 44 people left the building. So again, lets simplify this numer to 50 per year. (not as many as a lot of guys claim here!!)

So what do we have now?
You're a new joiner, there are roughly speaking 950 FO's ahead of you. On average over the follwing years, EK has on average 20 new aircraft a year for the next few years, which requires 200 new commands. Also around 50 pilots leave every year (they won't all be ahead of you, a lot of new joiners leave rather soon for various reasons)
You will be moving up on the FO's list around 250 places per year. So expect your command after around 4 years.

PS: This doesn't take DEC's into account, but lately, the number of DEC's joining is quite low, and hopefully EK will completely stop hiring DEC's in the near future.

MR8

[Saltaire]

Looks about right. Airbus F/O's are 4 years to command now as it is....about 14 months behind their new hire colleagues on the 777. Ouch :confused:

In '09 both fleets should be moving in parallel.

[MR8]

saltaire, the AB guys doing their upgrade end of '08 wil be here just over three years. Untill then (up to and including the summer 08) we are indeed looking at over 4 years..

DB, mix of about all you mention.

MR8

[Templarius]

Hi,

I doubt about the fact EK will stop DEC.

Consider the worldwide market in the short/med/long term..
There is not only EK.
I'd rather say, EK will increase the DEC and will have no choice but to take guys with 320 or 737 ratings "only" as less and less type rated guys will be avail.

This might be reversed if the training dep would be willing and also able to emphasize the training structure.

[Fart Master]

MR8 I doubt very much whether they will be able to pull the time to command back that much in one year, it's approx 4yrs 2m to 4yrs 5m at the moment.

The main block to this is insufficient training resources:ok:

[GoreTex]

but if you meet freddie kryger or steve "shortie" T. before your upgrade it might get postponed indefinitely.

[TwinJock]

The last 10,5 months (since beginning march 2007, EK publishes a seniority listed on the crew portal) 44 people left the building. So again, lets simplify this number to 50 per year. (not as many as a lot of guys claim here!!)

The way some carry on in these forums, I thought hundreds were leaving on an annual basis! The moaners and winers are always the majority posters on PPrune!!

Balanced posting by MR8!:ok:

[Fluke]

Perhaps 50 may have left but how many are planning to leave ? That is why the moaning is so loud because many despise Dubai but can not afford to leave. Makes a crap working environment !

[PositiveRate876]

...but how many are planning to leave ? That is why the moaning is so loud because many despise Dubai but can not afford to leave. Makes a crap working environment !


That's why God made Pprune. They're all here. :rolleyes:

[MR8]

Fartmaster,

If you have a look at the upgrade program for the airbus guys, you'll see that end of 2008 upgrades are planned for guys who will have been here (at the time of their upgrade) for just over 3 years again. Reason is that EK only hired 2 airbus F/O's for about 8 months between october 2004 and may 2005. And afterwards the hiring on AB went rather slow while the upgrades will go by around 16 (1 group of 4 per week) per month end of 2008.

MR8

[filejw]

PR 876, The word at my North America company is one bad experience out of 7 or 8 guys so the moaners quote is pretty close I guess.:hmm:

[Fart Master]

MR8, fair enough, if ther is that gap then it will pull things forward:)

[cptrcrazy]

Rumours say that EK gives experienced F/Os accelerated Command. If you have more than 1000hrs F/O time on heavy jet, you can "negotiate your seniority" ... Is that true?
Because then the whole waiting time is very unpredictable...
:ugh:

[MR8]

cptrcrazy... Nope!!

BTW, more then 1000hrs on heavy jet is still quite below the average hours a joining FO has, so be glad people can't 'negotiate' their upgrade, it would disadvantage you.

Fast Track criteria can be found on the EK website, but it's something like 8000TT with 1000 as Capt on a jet +55tons. Not sure, so stand to be corrected. Anyway, fasttrack is only available when there is no 3 year upgrade guys, so for sure on the airbus you can forget about that anyway. On the Boeing... by the time you join I guess you can forget about it as well...

MR8

[XIVIL4DEP]

In other words, the 18 months or so which they claim that one can be fasttracked to command, doesn't really ever happen ..... OR DOES IT ?

Can someone fill me in ? Coz I have the Fasttrack requirements and have an interview coming up with them soon.

Happy New Year fellow PPruners !!:D

[Cessna1052]

Accelerated command does happen, I know for a fact one guy who did his fastracked trng from 6 months of joining(B777). Even less than the 18 months.

[QNH1013]

Yes it DOES happen. Even as I type there is someone I know doing a fastrack upgrade (boeing, airbus I dont know). It is not a sure thing though because it totally depends on the company so dont expect it. But you could ask in the interview what your chances are based on the demand for fleet upgrades.

Oh and please could you ask the interviewers if basic pay is going to increase due heavy inflation here in dubai and let us know what they say eh.
Happy New Year and good luck.

[MR8]

Fast tracks DO indeed happen at the time being, but as 1013 correctly pointed out, it completely depends on the company.
Currently, upgrades on the B777 are going so fast that they need every guy that is eligable for command, so if you have the fast track criteria, you will get a command pretty soon. (The FOM states 18 months, that is the Final Line Check date).

Don't be caught out though, if you have a look at the seniority list, you'll see that after September 2004 most new F/O's were hired on the B777. Although the command time right now is still exactly 3 years on the B fleet, pretty soon it will go up as well, maybe only just over three years. The catch is that (according the rules in the FOM) no fast tracks will be done as long as there are enough candidates who have the 3 year criteria.

Basically, it comes to this: if you are eligable for fast track, you MIGHT get a command before three years, but it is absolutely NOT A RIGHT!
On the other hand, after three years when it is your time according to the seniority list and if you behaved (have all the criteria), it is your right to go for an upgrade.

So, if I were you, before considering coming over to join, have a good thaught about 4 years to command. If you can live with that, consider the rest of the package. If you think 4 years is too long (you might get better oportunities where you are now), don't even think about the rest, because chances are great that you will end up bitter for not geting that fast track you expected.

MR8

PS: Looking at the seniority list how it is now, I think fast tracks will finish soon. Airbus commands coming down to about 3.5 years, Boeing commands will go up to around the same amount of time in a few months. No reason for fast tracking anyone.