Baby FTDK

[Jabawocky]

For all of you who have dreamed of owning a FTDK....and found the price a little out of reach:{........well here is your alternative

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/images/subcategories/6389_c.jpg


A VEE tailed Sonex!

J:ok:

[Monopole]

Put your hard hat on Jabawocky.

I think you may have just insulted the FTDK of Pprune fame and he'll be after you :ouch::ouch::}

[185skywagon]

Monopole,
Lucky they appear to be good friends. :)

185

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

That's it Jaba - you've done it this time! How can you compare a V35B to this toy!

No more left seat in a REAL FTDK for you.

Dr :8

[Peter Fanelli]

Looks better
:E

[Jabawocky]

:}:}:E:E:}:}:E


no more LHS:{:sad:

Hey I knew this would get a quick response from all and sundry quarters of the globe!:D

Just lucky you have the real thing then hey!:ok:

J

[BEACH KING]

ooooooohh Peter Fanelli........ very very risky:*

[Jabawocky]

They are all coming out of the woods....or brigalow suckers now:E

CD on its way there too Beachy!

J:ok:

[BEACH KING]

Thanks Jaba, got the photo that FTDK sent today in the mail. All the best for Christmas and the new year. (probably should have you a pm instead of posting here.. sorry)

[185skywagon]

Beachy,
what are those pedal things on the floor for???
Jaba,
does that little one have Oak floorboards like the real thing?

[Jabawocky]

No idea at all....only just stumbled across it today..

details are here

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/aircraft/waiex.html

and there are pics of the a/c inside and out

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/images/products/waiex/waiexgallery.html

Have seen a straight tailed Sonex, polished alloy and it looked great. Built by a 744 captain on the coast here. The V tail version just cracked me up!

J

[OZBUSDRIVER]

ooooowhhh, It's not a real FTDK, it's got a deformed thingy under the tail that trys to act like a rudder:}

Having said that, those little Sonerais get up and boogie. Have a friend up in YMIA with a Sonerai with a home turboed 912 with full suite MoTec engine management and fuel injection. It regularly flies the other side of 160kts.

Shows that the aerodynamics are good, just add power and go faster:ok:

[BEACH KING]

"Beachy,
what are those pedal things on the floor for???"

They be footrests C185.

gee, you did a great job putting the trackpoint history overlaying Google earth in the "more photos" thread. Thats a fair whack of flying in a year. The 185 must be about ready to be "renewed"

[Chimbu chuckles]

So...FTDK...you wanna kick three shades of **** out of him or will I ?:}

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

V35B aka Fork-tail Doctor Killer

http://www.fototime.com/8DEBA74FFD9380E/standard.jpg




Piddling little v-tail thingy! http://www.fototime.com/0CB037F5FBA9045/standard.jpg




No contest!

Dr :8

PS: Chuckles, you're in town this weekend - I'll leave it to you to deal appropriately with Jaba!

[Ultralights]

for some messed up psychological reason, i immediatly thought of a line from Men in black 2
Old and busted...
new hotness.

[Jabawocky]

So...FTDK...you wanna kick three shades of **** out of him or will I ?

Gee you blokes have no sense of humour:}

I am escaping to the sunshine coast for a bit.......hiding perhaps!

J:ok:

Its a cute one........don't they say immitation is a form of flattery?;)

[xxgoldxx]

really you guys..


some appreciation of the little yellow one perhaps... but that other thing ??

Half a tail, wheels in the wrong place, wings in the wrong place....

I dunno .. !!

[Jabawocky]

xxgoldxx

mate thats asking for trouble........wings and wheels in the wrong place:ouch:

I am a stirrer but not that brave or stupid!:uhoh:

Have to say though......if you had one at the airfield, knowing several of the folk above they would definately want to take her for a lap around the sky!

I reckon you would have to have one in the hangar alongside the real one....just for fun! Painted up the same as your beloved FTDK.

J

[Capt Wally]

:)Hey FTDK I keep meaning to ask you seeing as yr in love with a certain type of airframe:-) I used to hire a V35 (fishtailer) from EN many years ago & always found that in any sort of upset (turb) it tended to dance the ball between the goal posts. Now seeing as you would have oodles of hrs on type how do you find this?. I used to trim out a slight left or right rudder inbalance & it seemed to keep it more stable. I know that Beech tried the idea & found that it wasn't popular hence you don't see to often that somewhat odd design. Like the little baby one tho, cute:)
Oh & I fly R/C planes & have had a few models with V tails they also seem to wander, just curious that's all don't want to start an all out war as to whether there any good or not:)

Capt Wally:)

p.s............the actual plane I used to fly had an eng failure some years ago & crashed at night amongst hills I believe, lucky for the pilot he survived, hmmmmm SE night flying.......now there's another story !

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Wally - What model was the V-tail that you flew?

My understanding is that early model V-tails have smaller ruddavators (?) than later models and therefore had a greater tendancy to tail wag. Sorry, I can't tell you what year they put the larger tail on it.

My experience with FTDKs is limited to 3 aircraft - all with the larger tail.

VH-CFK, in which I did my endorsement in about 1975 with Barry Hempel. I think it was a V35A. VH-FWE, ex Stanbroke Pastoral Co - a V35A, and my current steed, which is a V35B.

I don't find the tail-wagging to be a significant issue. There are a couple of reasons for this.

1) I mostly fly by myself or with front seat pax only. The aeroplane wags around an axis between the two front seat so is not nearly as disturbing as it is for back seat pax.

2) I generally fly as high as possible - where is is usually smooth.

3) If I am in turbulence I usually hand fly, unless I am in hard core IMC when I generally let George do the work and just put up with the wagging.

2 axis autopilots generally fight the tail wag and make the problem much worse, so V-tail pilots soon learn the nack to damping out the tail-wag while hand flying and do it automatically without having to think about it.

I am told that a yaw-damper will eliminate the tail wag as an issue, but I have never flown a V-tail that had a yaw-damper fitted.

Most people think the tail-wagging is the result of not having a vertical fin, but it is actually a characteristic of the airframe design - largely I think because of the forward position of the wing. The BE36 wags its tail in turbulence, as does the straight tail BE33 - but the 35 does it best. Barons, which are essentially twin engine Bonanzas, also tail wag in turbulence - but not to the same extent.

Cheers

Dr :8

[tartare]

Jeez Dr.
I saw the title of the thread and thought you'd given birth...

[185skywagon]

I have only been in the right seat of the C-90 KingAir a couple of times, they do it as well.

[frothy]

Hope this works, another V for you FTDR a Thorp, is there no end to it.


Frothyhttp://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj286/Grothy1/Newsletter137.jpg?t=1198204358
Thanks Jaba

[BEACH KING]

Capt Wally "I used to trim out a slight left or right rudder inbalance & it seemed to keep it more stable"

How did you trim out to get a rudder imbalance? I assume you did it by holding down a bit of rudder, or are there some V tail Bonanza models with a rudder trim?http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon5.gif

XXGOLDXX "Half a tail, wheels in the wrong place, wings in the wrong place...."
Far riskier than even Peter Fanelli's post:*:*:*
typical utterances from Cessna drivers with Beech Envy.

I do however enjoy drinking your PPrune name.
I'll think of you when I have one or two this evening

[gassed budgie]

My understanding is that early model V-tails have smaller ruddavators (?)


I think the control surfaces on the V-tail have always been the same size. Beechcraft increased the size of the tailplane with the C35 in '51 (I think) and accomplished this by increasing the chord of the tail surfaces. All of the increase in the length of the chord was ahead of the main spar in the V-tail. When the FAA gave the V-tail the once over in the early '80's, it was suggested (in fact they issued a mandantory AD) that all the V-tails have leading edge cuffs fitted to the tailplane because of the increased twisting loads imposed on the tail. The earlier 35's with the narrow chord tail were exempt from the AD.


Most people think the tail-wagging is the result of not having a vertical fin, but it is actually a characteristic of the airframe design - largely I think because of the forward position of the wing. The BE36 wags its tail in turbulence, as does the straight tail BE33 - but the 35 does it best.


The 35/36 Bonanzas are very stable laterally in turbulence, hence the tendency to yaw as opposed to roll.

I am told that a yaw-damper will eliminate the tail wag as an issue, but I have never flown a V-tail that had a yaw-damper fitted.

Flew one (V35B) a few years ago with an S-tec yaw damper fitted to it. It eliminated most of but not all the tail wagging. Still it was nice to be able to use it as an electric rudder trim on long climbs.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

GB - "I think the control surfaces on the V-tail have always been the same size"

"The oringinal V-tail on the 35 to B35 had a dihedral angle of 30 degrees, a chord at the root of about 42 inches, and a chord at the tip of about 31.5 inches. All Bonanza ruddervators and horizontal stabilizers have about the same span - 68 inches. Starting with the C35, all subsequent V-tails had a dihedral of 33 degrees and root and tip chords of about 50.5 and 35.5 inches, respectively."

"Geometrically, though perhaps not aerodynamically, the V-tails can be "projected" to give their vertical and horizontal "equivalent areas". This means, for instance, that if we placed an old V-tail directly below a distant light source and traced the tail's shadow on a horizontal plane, we could measure the horizontal component of the V-tail. The area of this shadow would be the "equivalent horizontal tail area". Similarly, a light from the side would cast a shadow on a vertical plane (paralleling the longitudinal axis), and the area of this shadow would be half the "equivalent vertical tail area". (It is half, since there are two tail members.) Table 1 gives the data for the various tails.

Table 1 - Equivalent Areas
Old V-tail: Horizontal tail - 31.9; Vertical tail - 18.4
New V-tail: Horizontal tail - 36.4; Vertical tail - 23.6"

Ref: "Flying the Bonanza", 2nd Ed 1977, by John C Eckalbar [ISBN 0-9616544-3-0]

Dr :8

[gassed budgie]

Table 1 - Equivalent Areas
Old V-tail: Horizontal tail - 31.9; Vertical tail - 18.4
New V-tail: Horizontal tail - 36.4; Vertical tail - 23.6"


FDTK how do the equivalent areas compare to the model 33?
Total tail surface area increased on later V-tails, but did the control surface (the wiggly bits) area increase? One just has to know these things.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

GB, according to Eckalbar, the 33 and the 36 have a vertical fin of similar area - about 15.3 sq ft (cf 18.4 / 23.6 above).

As for the "wiggly bits", don't know about the Bonanza's - but mine seems to be getting smaller as the years progress!

Dr :8

[gassed budgie]

As for the "wiggly bits", don't know about the Bonanza's - but mine seems to be getting smaller as the years progress!


Same sort of thing happening here FTDK. I at least on the odd occassion, I'm allowed and get to use my wiggly bits to practice recovery from unusual attitudes. I'm really keen on the cuban 8.:E

[Capt Wally]

...........tnxs FTDK & to the others with a very comprehensive knowledge base for info and 'waggled' their tails into this Bo habbit:)

FTDK I am not sure what model it was that I flew years ago & the rego escapes me at the moment. (perhaps VH-CFH?). All planes 'wag' thier tails to some degree (hence the strakes on a lot of higher performance machines) mainly 'cause the medium that the machines fly in is compressable (air) not like water where any rudder has a far more effient way of keeping the 'ship' straight.

Hi "Beach King" ( I assume you too fly the BE20) you have a good point there about what method I used to trim the rudder for out of balance flt.I can't recall now how I did it but I do recall (perhaps a bending of any metal adjustable trim tab)that the rudder pedals are in fact deliberately offset to compensate for perhaps that & to assist in spin recovery, am racking my poor brain here now with that lot. So I asked if it could be checked when next it went in for a 100 hrly.:). It seemed to fix the problem whatever they did a little but obviously not completely.
I know the L35/36 (std model, not modified) that I fly has yaw damper restrictions as in they have to be avail for flt (no go item) so the problem of tail wagging will always be there in any A/C to some degree. If I kick out the yaw damper (part of the auto flt system) to early in the flair (it's a req on some types of auto pilots in the Lear's)the ship wags itself around esspecially in x winds quite a bit. It's the one function that just after T/Off is required to be selected after the U/C.
Still an interesting subject.

Capt Wally:)