Its time for Chris Darke to go!

[Hot Wings]

Does anybody know how we can get rid of Chris Darke?

I have had enough of Balpa's continued focus on increasing membership numbers. It is time for a cull at New Road. Balpa needs to do more for its existing members, many of whom only stay for the legal protection.

Balpa has failed to deliver in recent pay talks at BY and VS. Last year a 2 year pay deal was agreed at BA without even consulting the membership. When are Balpa going to employ the hard-nosed professional negotiators required to get results? Who thought that it was a good idea to send 3 pilots to Branson's house for a weekend of pay talks? Airline management must laugh at our amatuer attempts to improve our terms and conditions.

We need a change of direction and leadership. Chris Darke seems to be far to cosy with senior airline management. For example he concluded a deal, regarding the flight crew rest facilities on board BA's 777s, without informing the relevant council.

Chris Darke has forgotten that he works for us - the pilots and F/Es whose monthly subscriptions pay his wages.

Many comments on pprune indicate a complete lack of faith in Balpa. It appears that Balpa is only capable of selling us down the road.

[This message has been edited by Hot Wings (edited 25 March 2001).]

[dallas dude]

Question from an ignorant git....

Is Chris Darke a line qualified pilot?

How long's he been in this position?

Who pays his salary?

Ta very much,

dd

[Hot Wings]

Dallas Dude - Chris Darke is not a qualified line pilot. He is employed by Balpa. I do not know how long he has been at Balpa for.

It is important to realise that he is an un-elected official. He appears to have a different agenda to that of the membership, in which case he should either change his ways or be removed.


PS. DD - did you live in BFL before Dallas?

[Sunshine Express]

I don't know how we can change the BALPA leadership but I agree that things are not right.

There are valid arguements that a union is only as strong as it's members make it BUT BALPA never seem to ask our opinion anymore. Occasionally (very) we receive a news letter threatening strong action about a company situation & asking our support should it be needed. Fine, except that's the last we hear of whatever the problem was.

I feel that many agreements etc are made with companies at a high union level by-passing the Company Councils, and as was stated CD and others are not elected.

Finally, with all the money we pay, BALPA are now a large and very profitable company in their own right. I would like to know what union their employees are in and if it is good!

1% is a hell of a lot to pay for legal cover (unless you ever need it of course!). I am not sure that I would want a BALPA representative at a disiplinary nowdays as I feel (perhaps wrongly) that a deal might be done with the company after I left.

Let's hope none of us ever have to worry about that side of it.

[DrSyn]

Regardless of any personal opinions on BALPA, I should like to correct a couple of inaccuracies by Hot Wings and Sunshine Express, concerning Chris Darke.

The previous Gen Sec, Mark Young, passed away in August 1991. Following a considerable amount of "civilised discussion" amongst the BALPA membership, a ballot was held in mid-1992 between Mr Darke and David Lebrecht. Such was the deep concern of the BALPA membership at the time, that almost 61% managed to find the time to send in their ballot papers. Chris secured some 57% of the vote and was formally appointed at the NEC meeting of 7 July 92. He was, therefore, elected.

I can't put my finger on it, but I have been increasingly getting the feeling that BALPA reps are less than keen on PPRuNe for some reason or another. I thought, therefore, that it might be helpful to clarify this point in case it took some time for anyone from New Rd to do so. Meanwhile, I continue to pay my 1% and send in my ballots in good time.

[Hot Wings]

DrSyn - whilst I greatly appreciate you pointing out that Chris Darke is an elected official, I am deeply concerned that only 35% of the Balpa membership voted him into office 9 years ago.

Chris Darke continues to proclaim the increase in Balpa membership yet only a small percentage of current members voted for him. Perhaps someone can explain how long his term is, whether or not he ever need to get re-elected and what the process would be if we wanted to get rid of him.

I think that an election is long overdue as it is time to let the majority of Balpa members have their say regarding the strategy and policy of Balpa's leadership.

I'm not at all surprised to hear that PPrune is out of favour at New Road. Its amazing though, that our union would rather not hear what we have to say! Perhaps the truth hurts too much.

[beardy]

BALPA (of which I am a member) does seem to be particularly sensitive to wide debate as to it's role, aims and methods. Our company forum on PPRUNE had a large, in fact it's largest, topic about BALPA. This has mysteriously gone, vanished, no more to be pondered over. I seem to remember reading something 7 years ago about the control of history, but it ended up in room 101 and I can no longer find any reference to it.

I see our delegates get to have a wonderful bash whilst attempting to influence the great and good of the industry. Would it be possible for us lowly members to have a bash,funded from our subscriptions,to influence our delegates. Perhaps then we might get to feel part of the organisation and as if we had influence on what is done in our name. At the moment I feel "in the union but not part of the union" (or is that Europe I'm not sure, I can't find the reference again). I did visit the web site, but it is all form but no substance, I couldn't find any discussions to which I could contribute, but perhaps I'm not supposed to.

[Basil]

DrSyn,
Chris Darke is NOT an elected official.
As General Secretary he is an employee of BALPA and may be dismissed (subject to the terms of his contract) without any vote.
The "election" to which you refer was merely to choose between two prospective candidates for a paid appointment.

Hope this helps an understanding of the position.

[FO Nigetrussoxide]

Certainly BALPA are suceeding in expanding the membership. However they don't seem to be able to negotiate any decent (above inflation) raises. The recent Virgin case (for those of you who know the details) is astounding.
However, my question is ; "Is it BALPA's fault, or are these poor outcomes due to a lack of motivation within the employee base?"

[astrocyte]

Perhaps someone could post the Virgin details?

[porpoise]

I agree, some choice we had. David Lebrecht sold out the regions and then shortly afterwards we find he has gone to work for British airways. Chris Darke doesn't want to to spoil his new labout credentials. It's about time the membership were given a vote of confidence in the way Balpa has chosen to go. They seem far more interested in more members and therefore more revenue for balpa than they do about representing the interests of those who pay their wages. I'm also sick of hearing we are only as strong as the membership. We need leadership from somebody who is not going to be targeted from management for sticking their head above the parapet.

[snooky]

I saw Chris Dark on news 24 this morning discussing NATS sell off. I must say that I thought at the time that I'd rather BALPA cocentrated on getting better pay for pilots and preventing companies franchising away real jobs. I think most members are more interested in these sorts of issue than the peripheral type things that BALPA seems to spend a lot of time on.

[Effendi]

Whether Chris Darke is a pilot or not I don't know. But I don't think he's a commercial pilot. What he certainly is is a professional union official. I seem to recall that in the '80's he was an extraemely militant union official with TASS - a small and active union for, I think, civil servants.

[kippa]

As a BALPA member I would like to know if Chris Darke's salary has "enjoyed" similiar annual increases as that of the majority af BALPA members. As BA pilots form the majority of BALPA's membership I would expect his salary to have enjoyed a 1.5% increase last year 2% the year before.
BALPA is its membership why are we not aware of thew salaries we pay?

[Bluelabel]

KIPPA - I think you will find that CD's salary is an open secret, and published in the BALPA accounts circulated to all members every year.

[XFO1-11]

General Secretary Salary (Chris Darke) as per annual Balpa accounts over four consecutive years. (2000 not available yet.)

Total Remuneration in Pounds.

1996 77,202
1997 87,467
1998 97,788
1999 107,967

Approx Percentile Rise (General Sec)

1996-97 13.3%
1997-98 11.8%
1998-99 10.4%

General Staff Costs.

1996 916,981
1997 1,058,093
1998 1,101,524
1999 1,235,365

Approx Percentile Rise (General Staff Costs)

1996-97 15.4%
1997-98 4.1%
1998-99 12.2%

Balpa Membership Subscriptions 1999

2,904,339

Balpa Expenditure 1999

3,150,045

Overall Deficit 1999 (Excl Interest on Assets)

245,706

Figures for positions other than Gen Sec are not published in the Annual Report except within the overall staff costs.

[This message has been edited by XFO1-11 (edited 26 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by XFO1-11 (edited 26 March 2001).]

[kippa]

O.K. i am impressed!

It does however prove my point. C.D. + staff do not relate their wage increases to that which they negotiate for their membership.

Is their anyone from BALPA permanent staff out there who would like to justify this?

[M.Mouse]

Still they only spent £75,000 on lunches and entertainment and I am sure IFALPA affiliation and conference costs are good value at circa £92,000.

[Captain Mainwaring]

i joined Balpa last year for two reasons:
1. Emerald have a history of 'blame' following incidents.
2. I was persuaded that 51% membership would yield great changes.
I have heard nothing from anyone since i and plenty of others joined the union.We don't even warrant a mention in the publications!
I will review my membership after one year and will probably move to the IPA to get that legal cover.
I have to say i feel it was the Subs that the union were after.

[This message has been edited by Captain Mainwaring (edited 26 March 2001).]

[MaximumPete]

Legal cover seems a funny reason to stay in a union. Don't forget that you have convince your CC that you have more than a cat in hell's chance of winning before you get the assistance, but I may be wrong on this one.

I know a man who does a good deal on legal insurance if you want to e-mail me.

MP

[Genghis McCann]

Let us be very wary here. I am not foolish enough to think that BALPA offer a panacea for all ills but they are the best we have. Let us not turn on someone who represents us and publicly vilify him in this manner. If we have informed and legitimate complaints about his performance this is not the place to air them - write to him direct.

Washing our dirty linen in public will only encourage our employers to stand up all the more to BALPA and will be counterproductive. And by the way I have no office of any kind - I just pay my 1% like everyone else.

[willoman]

Hear Hear ! Complain by personal letter, not by public execution.

[Hot Wings]

Genghis - the brutal truth is that yes, they may be "the best we have" but they are simply not good enough anymore. We pay our 1% and, therefore, we have a say in the direction of our union.

As one PPruner mentioned earlier, how many times have we been informed of serious issues requiring support but then we never hear anything about what transpires.

It is time to forget about this typical "Dunkirk spirit/ mustn't grumble" British attitude. CD works for us and should be held accountable to us.

[Arkroyal]

I remain a member only because of legal cover, and that I would feel very guilty to take the benefits(?) without contributing.

Hot Wings is right, however. We need to employ a hard nosed assassin who works hard for US and who does not cosy up to the management.

[StressFree]

For me the 1% is for the legal cover, we all know what is the first enquiry after an incident - who's to blame?
Thats not a strange reason to be in a union which offers help in a crisis, thats good enough for me.

:)

------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'

[Scimitar]

I feel sure that, by now, someone will have drawn Chris Darke's attention to this thread. It would be nice if he were to offer some reassurance to the many unhappy Balpa members who have expressed their dissatisfaction here. Some indication that the "suits" at New Road are actually concerned about the views and worries of their members (as opposed to just the level of membership) would come as a pleasant surprise.

[DrSyn]

I agree with Ghengis McC and willoman with regard to excercising caution. It will hardly improve New Road's opinion of this site to vilify them here.

Basil, if I may quote from the Chairman's letter to members, dated 26 June 92, "You will by now be aware of the result of the ballot for the post of General Secretary and the election of Chris Darke, ...." (my emphasis). It is very common for a whole range of organisations to have paid positions to which the appointee must be elected by the members. Following election, normal employment regulations then apply, subject to the term of appointment which, in the case of GS, is 5 years,

Effendi, Mr Darke has never been a pilot. Most of his career has been devoted to being a professional union official.

[CQ]

I remember when his past experience was listed, being a former member of the Communist Party, I thought then, what the hell is Balpa doing? We'd moved on in leaps and bounds with management and employee relationships by the early 90's. Well that may have been the case in my previous company. Apparently not in the Shell Suit outfit, it's just like going back to the very dark Victorian age. They have an unbelievably dictatorial bullying management directed from above. It seems the style in other accountant lead airlines today as well. Chris Darke did a deal with the Shell Suit outfit in order to gain their pilots onto Balpa books. The ex Leisure guys have paid for it since and still are. Despite TUPE employment regulations, the ex Leisure terms and conditions have been and still are being eroded by the bean counters of the parent company. There still is no recognition agreement despite the overwhelming vote for Balpa since last September. At the end of the day Chris Darkes' Balpa is not on ours or anyone else's side other than his own. He appears to be a political animal no better than bottom line airline management who think and work in a similar manner. Balpa, lead by Chris Darke, is a greedy money grabbing organisation that preys on our legalistic vulnerability in this litigious business we are in today. My vote is....GO

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 26 March 2001).]

[knows]

Prior to XF/O 1-11's posting I was getting ready to defend Mr Darke. You know - saying something like " we do really need to pay £75 K or more to get anyone with credibility, integrity, determinartion and polished negotiating experience."

BUT seeing the size of his increases when we end up with inflation plus 0.2 percent (whatever!) makes me see red!

[Effendi]

Mr Darke's a good socialist! Cares about others, not his pay packet.

[Three Percent]

It would seem only fair that his salary should be no more than the mean of which BALPA have been able to negotiate for its members. Like so many others my 1% goes on legal insurance.

[dallas dude]

Folks,

Far be it from me to criticise Dark Chris's salary. Good luck to him.

Doesn't seem to be helping you get what you all deserve, though. Think about it, where are BALPA's priorities?

Why would you NOT want an airline pilot running a pilot's union? Surely you'd all want someone who could confidently say they'd been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

Maybe it's time to pull your heads out of that brown cloud.

dd

[The Skylord]

The IPA is currently making preparations to form a legally registered Union. Soon there will be a choice.....

[knows]

Sklord - let me ask you a question. "If the IPA were an alternative - do you think that would strengthen or weaken BALPA?"

DD - I quite agree with you. However some BALPA members are surprised that he seems to be proficient at negotiating increases in his own pay - wheras BALPA have failed in recent years to get significant increases for members.
(For the record, my own view is that this "failure" is an outcome of a lack of any real determination within the pilot workforce.
Eg we are all familiar with the views of some pprune posters; who beleive that we are simply not worth any more pay. This is supplemented by those idiots who actually beleive that; some airlines (low cost ones?) can't afford to pay above inflation increases!!!)

[The Skylord]

knows
I would think it will weaken BALPA unfortunately.
However there is no question that an awful lot of non BA pilots will not join BALPA because of a perceived pro BA pilots stance and BALPA's poor record when it comes to non BA matters (Danair, flagging out, BA using US 737 pilots, etc.)
I regret any weakening of BALPA but surely a choice of Unions will hopefully increase the total number of pilots who join one.
If there was no demand for a choice and everyone was happy with BALPA then this situation would not have arisen - and to some extent it is a situation that CD has allowed to come about.

[faq]

Talking flagging out skylord; months ago I sent a letter to Chris Darke regarding flagging out at Leeds and Teeside by Skyservice UK.

I never received a reply.

[Boeingman]

The IPA can never be a viable alternative to BALPA due its total lack of resources. Say 1600 full members at £60 per year is only £96000. That's hardly enough to sustain an office and secretary let alone be a player on the world stage.

At least I get a copy of the BALPA accounts each year. I haven't received any from the IPA since I joined.

Many UK pilots, like me, are members of both organisations. Anybody who lobbies on our behalf has got to be good. No one else is going to do it thats for sure.

[Hew Jampton]

"Why would you NOT want an airline pilot running a pilot's union? Surely you'd all want someone who could confidently say they'd been there, done that and got the T-shirt."

CD is the General Secretary, a paid employee; he doesn't (or shouldn't) "run" BALPA. That is done by a National Executive Committee and its Chairman, all elected and all flightcrew.

[kippa]

What should he do then?

What does he do?

[Boeingman]

He does what the NEC instructs him to do while they are off doing the day job and then reports back.

He uses his political and industrial contacts to lobby on our behalf and to influence decisions made in the Industry and by Goverment that affect all of us. He has to think stategically i.e. about long term trends.

He is up for election soon and if another candidate is put up or the current incumbant finds a better job or retires then there will be a choice.

[StressFree]

Boeingman,
Good post but 'lobby on our behalf'? What exactly has this lobbying achieved? Did the flagging out stop etc.?????
As I said in my previous post my 1% is for legal cover, I have little confidence in the other potential benefits of membership.

------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'

[M.Mouse]

faq

I too wrote to CD about an issue last year. I had concerns over BALPA's stance on something that affected me. I wrote requesting a reply about a month later and it was only after lobbying a representative that a reply was forthcoming some two and a half months after my first letter by which time the matter had been resolved.

Two unions would be disastrous. Look at Cabin Crew 89 and BASSA in BA.

I remain a member of BALPA and certainly of late there has been a marked difference in attitude/communication from the BA Councils. I am looking for the changes and improvements to continue throughout the organisation so that threads such as this one are unnecessary. Certainly I have no reason to doubt the integrity and commitment of the present BA reps. Certain individuals among the previous incumbents have much to answer for. My concerns now relate to those higher up the chain.

[This message has been edited by M.Mouse (edited 28 March 2001).]

[Boeingman]

Stress Free

" Lobbying on our behalf " is often essential just to maintain the status quo. Our employers are doing this all the time and if we are not there to have our voice heard we will find ourselves outflanked. (P@ssed upon from a great height.)

This is currently going on in BRU with the FTL debate. The unions have been invited to the table to discuss the issue with AEA and other employers organisations with a view to a common FTL for the projected EU OPS. If somebody didn't take up this invite on our behalf heaven knows what scheme would be hatched.

All that might be achieved in the end is the status quo i.e CAP 371...but it will have cost BALPA money in manpower, airfares, hotac etc. Thats another drain on our subs for possibly no gain.

But we have to be there. No one else will fight our corner.

[Captain Jumbo]

So, theoretically, how is Mr Darke removed ?

What are the details in his contract regarding his performance, and what sort of lack of performance involves him being penalised by losing his job ?

Who is actually responsible for authorising his huge pay rises - wouldn't mind some of those my self !

Have the rest of the remunerated BALPA officials, full or part time, received similar rises over that period ?

How do Mr. Darke's salary and pay rises compare with that of similar sized unions ?

Why does no-one ask them these and other questions, and post the answers here ?

[Hot Wings]

Captain Jumbo - it amazes me that the professional pilot's union is afraid of the professional pilot's rumour network. If only somebody from New Road would come on to this thread and address a few of these issues. Dream on!

The conclusion I have reached is that Chris Darke's pay rise is directly related to increases in membership numbers. This would explain Balpa's continued obsession with increasing membership whilst doing little for the existing members.


MORE members = MORE subscriptions =
BIGGER budget = MORE responsibility for the Gen. Sec. = MORE PAY FOR CHRIS DARKE!!!!


Anything that rocks the boat, affects Balpa's chances of recognition and the likelihood of obtaining new members.

This must end NOW. The Gen. Sec's. pay rise must become performance related ie. the mean of the rises obtained by Balpa for its' members.

We need to get rid of Chris Darke asap and replace him with one of the many recently retired airline Captains - someone who understands our needs and concerns and who will provide Balpa with the leadership required to address our issues. Someone who will employ a strong and experienced negotiating team and get results in our favour, for a change.

PS. GB Airways is yet another example of Balpa's poor record in pay negotiations. They have just been sold down the road for a miserly 5%.

[flt_lt_w_mitty]

In which case his pay may be about to take a small downward dip? Rumour has it that a few VS pilots are less than happy with their deal and might take a short 'contribution holiday'!!
This could be followed by GB of course and................

[Boeingman]

The Gen Sec pay in BALPA is comparable to other unions. BALPA is in the process of recruiting two Principal Negotiators to strengthen the negotiating team.

Experienced Union Officials are hard to come by due the changes in Employment legislation brought in by this Government and so Unions are having to pay more. The same as Airlines are doing to retain pilots. This years settlements that areunfettered by two year deals are coming in ahead of last year.

The General Secretary is elected every five years. If there is a genuine head of steam to remove the current incumbant then I suggest you read the BALPA Rules which will explain how to go about it. I think the current term ends next year.

BALPA is an extremely democratic organisation with all industrial reps positions and the NEC subject to regular elections. If there is a groundswell of opinion against an individual a simple majority will be enough to remove them.

[Jeffrey Archers Friend]

flt_lt_w_mitty - it will be a great pity if some Virgin BALPA members leave. Who the heck voted yes for the pitiful deal - and why did BALPA recommend it?
Baffled!

[Notso Fantastic]

This mystifies me! I have been looking for a thread on the Virgin pay deal. I cannot understand WHY BALPA recommended it, and WHY the pilots voted for it. Have I missed the thread somewhere? What on earth was going on?

[beardy]

There seems to be a gap between what BALPA is doing and what it's members think and maybe want it to do. Although we elect our employees they should be there to do our bidding and not to follow their own agendas. There seems to be an unwillingness to ask what the members want and to discover what the members think of what is being done. There ought to be a better mechanism to instruct our union employees and to monitor their activity. The current veil between members and elected officials is opaque, it should be transparent.

[standby1]

Wise words Beardy, their own agenda has certainly not been explained enough to members, these are, and will have to be changing times for BALPA.

[EDDNR]

BALPA is such a pompous organisation! Not only does CD constantly waste ink on blabbing about his enormous membership growth rates, take a look at their website, to sign up, you have to choose your title as "Capt., Lord, Sir or Major".

Seriously looking to give myself a 1% payrise.

Rod

[Hot Wings]

Things are going from bad to worse! Just as this years pay claim at BA begins to gather some momentum, Chris Darke kindly tells some BA flight crew on the way back from BGI that we shouldn't raise our expectations!!!

What is this man doing as Gen Sec? When can we get rid of him?

The pay claim at BA is going to be tough enough without the Gen Sec throwing in the towel already. Once again, BALPA members at BA and the BA CC are being undermined by New Road.

Chris, have you forgotten who pays your wages? If we don't get a result this year, I'm off to the IPA (and I'm sure that I won't be the only one). Get onside CD or look forward to your own pay being CUT!!!

[CRP5]

Recently wrote a letter to BA BALPA rep at EOG, when I read the reply I thought they had passed it on to the Flight Crew Duty Mger to reply on their behalf!

Get your finger out your Ar$e and start acting like a union, or you won,t get my humble £30 odd quid a month subs for much longer!!

[Max Angle]

I have no particular axe to grind with Chris Darke but I do think the way the union functions needs to be addressed. I pay 1% of my hard earned to BALPA (about £50 a month/£600 per year) and yet the people who do almost all the work on my behalf ie. the CC get nothing for their efforts except a few expenses now and then. I would like to see much more activity from head office that benefits me and my collegues directly. All we seem to get are 6 issues of the Log and a few press statements out of them. Not quite accurate I know but it does make me angry when I see the guys on the CC putting in hours for nothing and New Road swallowing my money.

[Magnus Picus]

THE ANSWER TO ALL THESE QUESTIONS AND MORE CAN BE FOUND AT>>>>>>

[email protected]

Do yourself a favour people, and try a bit of dialogue yourselves.

------------------
Magnus

[XFO1-11]

Magnus,
On reading this months log I found the following statement in Chris Darke`s column.

"In my view we can `t improve terms and conditions by throwing in unrealistic and unsustainable wage demands, hoping the companies will cave in to someone who shouts loudly or threatens strike action. That is of course providing you can deliver it"

I wrote to Mr Darke to ask why he chose to make a statement such as this two weeks prior to the start of negotiations with BA, I am still waiting for a reply. I did discover however that he was on holiday. I will not print the details of that holiday but if any of you where to ask Head Office directly you may find it enlightenly! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[G-OOFY]

Boeingman,

In your first statement on this string you said "The IPA can never be a viable alternative to BALPA due to its total lack of resources" I believe that if the IPA does become a Union it will in fact do quite well. It does seem to be more in tune with the pilot workforce on many issues. For example flagging out, which we have discussed in the past.

The IPA have a strategy on writing to MP's, The DETR, Transport Minister etc and keep the members updated on what is happening. BALPA mearly prints a small notice in Airwaves once every now and then. Communication doesn't seem to be a strong point.

You once told me that this was so as to not show their (BALPA's) hand. But if the members don't know whats being done they feel under or badly represented.

Once-apon-a-time flagging out was an issue where a Charter Airline (usually Caledonian)would take on a wet-leased A/c for the summer season. Now it seems that most Charter companies try it on every year. I'm not 100% sure about the Atlas situation at the moment so I won't quote it, but the fact that these things happen and BALPA seems to do little about it gets on the memberships back.

This is just one example. I have no intention of turning this into a Flagging out string, just sounding off on my personal issue, but it is just one of many the members arn't happy about. ( Prehaps they would like to speak up at this point.)

I feel more communication is required, the IPA seem to be better at it at the moment.

[Dr Tre]

On our BALPA notice board at work recently there was a petition posted about who thought it would be a good idea to strengthen the ties with IFALPA in the US. I thought this would be a good idea as it might help BALPA sharpen their teeth, especially where pay deals are concerned. The notice was not posted by a BALPA rep but by a regular line pilot. After two days it disappeared. Why?

[knows]

Hot wings and XFO1-11; I couldn't agree more with your posts. BALPA must try harder to understand the members desires.

As for CD "back pedalling" already as we approach crunch time - well the outcome could be a complete break up of BALPA at BA.

[knows]

Hot wings and XFO1-11; I couldn't agree more with your posts. BALPA must try harder to understand the members desires.

As for CD "back pedalling" already as we approach crunch time - well the outcome could be a complete break up of BALPA at BA.

[Hot Wings]

XFO1-11,

I sense a conspiracy brewing. Please enlighten us all as to the details of our Gen Sec's holiday. Was it in BGI at BA's expense? Or in the company of certain BA managers?

Perhaps a "secure" posting on the BA forum for the answers please?

[XFO1-11]

Dr Tre,
The motion you refer to was removed by management because everything posted on BA premises requires their approval prior to being put up. The motion to evaluate a more formal link between Balpa and US Alpa did receive more than enough backing from members. The will now go before the ADC in November. Whether it passes at the ADC is up to the reps of all the company councils.

Hot Wings,
I will not print the details until I have confirmation in writing. I`m working on that! However in the mean time you could just ask as I did.

I would like to ask any Virgin or Britannia pilots out there a question. Prior to Balpa offering you their recommended pay deal did they inform you of the change in law last year that allows you to protective strike for up to eight weeks without being dismissed? Just curious whether you were given all the facts before being asked to decide.

[Ticker]

XF01, as far as I know in BAL, we have no information on that.

[next in line]

The disgraced manager of a well known airline who is trying to introduce BEA methods into a Gulf airline used to think that, in the main, pilots were not that bright. Having read 4 pages of this thread, for the first time in my career, I think I agree with him!

CD does not run the lives of balpa members. He does not control the NEC; he does not control the CCs. He does give guidance to the NEC which is composed of members from different companies but it is up to them whether it is accepted or not. The NEC controls his salary which was increased to compensate for reduced pension arrangements.

He does not make industrial agreements with any airline - the company reps do that, having taken into account what their colleagues tell them. If XX CC accepts y%, then it is because they are convinced that no more is available without all pilots taking action.

This is THE point. If all pilots in a company were members of balpa AND were willing to take indefinite strike action, then they would be able to markedly improve their T&Cs but only if the company could afford in the long run to pay an increased salary bill.

I have no doubt that Emerald pilots work harder than BA 744 pilots and therefore deserve a higher salary than BA pilots but can Emerald afford it? This is what I interpret about 'unrealistic' and reality - ie, if an airline can withstand a huge salary increase AND the entire pilot community is willing to go on strike, then the expectations are realisitc [read the entire quoted paragraph]. If one or neither is achievable, then they are quite unrealistic. How many British 'Regional' pilots are willing to remain on strile for 8 weeks as the UC Comair pilots have?

A Balpa notice board is for communications from the reps to their colleagues, not for trying to drum up support for a petition! US Alpa has members who have a totally differnt culture - MONEY - and attitude to industrial relations - STRIKE - to their British counterparts. Industrial Law is totally different in both countries. Anyone who thinks that if Balpa strengthen ties with 'IFALPA' (sic) it would generate US salaries in the UK is mistaken.

The IPA was born out of the collapse of Dan Air. Those not retained by Dan (BA) have retained a bitterness for balpa who they believe let them down - (a view not shared by all ex Dan pilots however) - this should be remembered. In trying to set up a 'Union' with bargaining rights, nothing would give them more pleasure than to have a divided pilot community which would weaken us all.

My point? I do not ask what I get out of my membership of Balpa. I give my 1% willingly, as well as my opinions to my reps. I give them my support.

[Magnus Picus]

Here is an email I received recently from Mr Darke. I hope it goes some way to allaying your fears of a conspiratorial nature and more importantly, it confounds any accusations of his failure to respond to emails. I sent him a message 2 days ago and this was received a day later.

Dear Mr (Picus),

Thank you for your comments and I will try to respond to all of them.

Firstly let me say that your elected representatives in BA are engaged in a very detailed preparation of the pay claim. This started over a month ago and it is the first time ever, that such detailed advanced preparation has taken place. There will be an announcement soon about some members consultative meetings to give you and your colleagues an opportunity to make input into the final structure of the claim. In the end the content of the claim will be decide by you and you’re elected representatives.

As to your comment on membership, the NEC and I do not care more about raising membership than we do about the pay terms and conditions of flight crew. In each case we seek to represent the wish of the membership. In my last LOG article I tried to point out how low paid unorganised flight crew pose a threat to highly organised and better-paid flight crew, just that nothing more. It would be absolute folly not to have a deep interest and commitment to our membership in BA and the other companies where we have been organised for many years; I can assure you we do.

The outcome of negotiations and what the members do accept or not as the case may be is not decided by me but by the members. In most cases a pay offer is subject to a ballot of the membership in the company concerned. If you are referring to the last two-year deal in BA then I tend to agree with you that at the time the membership should have been given the opportunity to vote on the deal. But your reprehensive at the time decided, and they had the right to do so, not to after holding a number of members meetings where there was no strong feelings voiced to have a ballot. The company at the time you will remember was at a low ebb.

In the end you considering everything will judge what comes out of the negotiations later this year. I have at this stage no idea what the company are thinking. I expect like you and me they will be watching closely what's happening in Lufthansa and what has happened and is happening in the US will not be lost on them.

Yes I too hope you and I can be proud of what ever the settlement is in BA and a lot of flight crew in other operators will be watching things closely as well. It is true to say that a lot of futures depend on the outcome.

I hope that covers the points and perhaps I will see you at one of the meetings.

Calling for resignations at what I believe is a potentially highly productive era (Apologies to Virgin et al) but solidarity is the only weapon BALPA has at this moment in time. I agree with most posts on this thread but to call for Chris Darkes resignation now would be counter productive.

BALPA have appeared pally with management primarily because we, the members, have become complacent. Start sending your emails and you will discover that the power of "petition" will provide the confidence for our elected representatives to be more bullish and less conciliatory.

Just look at what's happened to the Conservative party if you feel that calling for our leaders resignation is an option worth exercising.

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Magnus

[Hot Wings]

Magnus - thanks for posting the reply from CD. I like your comparison with the Tories. They have lost the election before it has even warmed up. If they had changed leadership months ago perhaps they would have a chance of winning.

I agree in the power of petition and in solidarity but is it really asking too much for CD not to undermine our pay negotiations at BA before they have even started?

[Flypuppy]

I apologise if I am commenting out of place, but I have a couple of questions;
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">In my last LOG article I tried to point out how low paid unorganised flight crew pose a threat to highly organised and better-paid flight crew, just that nothing more. It would be absolute folly not to have a deep interest and commitment to our membership in BA and the other companies where we have been organised for many years</font>

In the e-mail to Magnus Picus, Mr Darke sees low paid unorganised flight crew as a threat to the likes of BA pay deals. If this is the case what are BALPA (or even the IPA) doing about this? Is there anything that BALPA are currently organising for aspiring professional aircrew such as myself?

From the tone of the e-mail I get the impression that BALPA will only fight the corner of those pilots that work for large airlines and see the rest of the aircrew workforce as an irritant that won't get itself organised. If BALPA are to be a representive organisation, why do they not try to attract those of us that are about to start or are in the throws of training? Surely if us new boys have some contact with BALPA at an early stage in our flying career, and can see that they will look after us and our interests, we are likely to stick with it throughout our time as paid pilots?

If I am being naeive or talking out of turn, let me know and I will quietly slide back to Wannabes

[max_cont]

I have read the above thread with interest.

I hear a lot of complaints about what B.A.L.P.A, don't do for us.

It really comes down to the fact that 75% of working pilot's won't stand up and fight. By that I mean strike.

That's what the train drivers did. They won.

In the company I work for, the only way to stir the membership up seems to be to threaten the pension.

At a recent members meeting, CD stood up and said as much.

We have rejected one pay deal, the new "tweaked" deal is now published. It's cr@p. The management don't need to give more. The way the vote is, we've got nothing to threaten them with.

It will go through. Why, because all we pilots ever do is whinge, we don't have the stomach for a fight and the management know this.

Because of this, we hamstring our negotiators right from the start.

WE, are our worst enemy. Bluff only works once. (maybe)

Don't "talk the talk, if you can't walk the walk".

From my perspective, we in the UK are all bluff.

No disrespect intended towards any of the posts on this thread.

If it means that much to you all. Back up your CC and give them some real clout next time. This year's done already.

Fly safe.

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Stay cool, stay longer.

[XFO1-11]

Ticker,
The law changed 24th April 2000, over one year ago. It changed to the extent that you can now protected strike for up to eight weeks before the company can dismiss you, additionally if Balpa follow the rules then the threat of a company pursuing any striker for loss of profit is removed. Now I am not saying that this information would have made any difference to the outcome of your ballet, but I do think that given the law changed over a year ago that you should have been fully informed prior to starting negotiations.

Next in Line,
I am pleased that the concerns expressed by the members in this thread have increased your sense of superiority. It is always nice to make someone happy! I see you managed to get a dig at our colleagues in America as well. What a splendid day this must be for you. The fact that US Alpa is responsible for some of the best rates in the industry, is financially sound and in fact pays Comair Pilots part of their salaries whilst on strike, seems to escape you. A scenario not available to us due to lack of money. We do however agree on the point that we should support our reps. You couldn’t nip next door and tell Chris to do the same could you?

Magnus,
Its good to know that he is replying to some emails. Both the ones I sent have not been, what’s your secret? I agree with you on the point of solidarity with our reps, they have done a lot of work on our behalf. That however does not extend to Darke. Getting rid of him would improve the position of every Company Council in Balpa to achieve a better deal for their members. I believe Hot Wings reply sums it up!

[heretic]

XF101
Do you have a link to the new rules?

[XFO1-11]

heretic,
I cannot provide you with a link as the discussion on the topic occurred on the Balpa/BA CompuServe forum. It came to light after a private member asked what Balpa's take was on the new law. It then became apparent that Balpa didn't have a take! Pat Lawrence, one of the BACC reps, got his teeth into it and had the law evaluated on our behalf. It is now Balpa's stated position and Pat gave permission for its quotation to other members. When Head Office where asked why they had not evaluated the law and informed the members they stated they would have done prior to negotiations taking place. However if both Virgin and Britannia CC's were unaware of the now year old change then I would doubt the BACC would have faired any better. In which case we all end up negotiating without realizing that two of the biggest blocks to striking have been removed. Being Sacked and Sued. Most pilots like to be kept informed and make their own evaluations and decisions, it’s a healthy attitude for the job we do but apparently Head Office disagrees! It is certainly information you required before voting on marginal offers.
Regards,
XFO1-11

Here is the Balpa stated position.


Here is the authoritative response to the legal aspects of your questions. Feel free to quote them in the context of the general reply I gave you on PPrune.

Re: Legal Aspects of a Strike

The following legal propositions would seem to be relevant to the issues raised:

1. The general rule has, for many years, been that an employer may dismiss employees who take part in an official strike, provided that all of the relevant employees are dismissed and that none are re-engaged within a 3 month period. These provisions have been modified recently, such that there is now protection given during the first 8 weeks of an industrial dispute. After the 8 week period is over, the employer may dismiss striking employees provided the employer can show it has taken reasonable procedural steps to resolve the dispute. The remedy for an employee dismissed for taking part in the strike during the protected period is a normal claim for unfair dismissal. That is to say, it is subject to the usual statutory limits on compensation and the restricted nature of the remedies for re-instatement and re-engagement.

2. A strike is normally a breach of contract unless the contract has already been determined on giving proper notice to terminate. Thus, if the notice to commence the strike was for full contractual notice (3 months) and was appropriately phrased, the employer would have no remedy in damages against the individual employee. If full notice is not given, then it is a somewhat open question as to how any losses claimed by the employer would be calculated. If the strike was called by BALPA without following the appropriate statutory procedural requirements, then the employer could make a claim for damages against BALPA.

3. While I am sure that BA would look very closely at BALPA's procedures in calling industrial action, if the procedures are followed carefully, there is no particular risk involved.

4. The position of those who go sick when a strike is taking place is quite difficult. If the Courts take the view that individuals would have taken part in the action if not sick, then they will be deemed to have taken part in the action.


Best wishes Pat Lawrence (C747/BACC/LHLC

[Magnus Picus]

Fly Puppy,

I interpreted his comment that you quoted in your last post entirely differently. The long held assumption is that if the larger scheduled carriers pay more, then due to the exodus from the smaller carriers, the pay scales of the smaller companies is enhanced in order to prevent any further pilots leaving.

Market forces etc....

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Magnus