NZ to implement fingerprint and iris scans at the border

[NZScion]

I would have posted this in the SLF forum, but I imagine it will affect crews visiting/based in NZ as well.

An immigration bill, now in front of a parliamentary select committee, would give border control officers the right to collect and store fingerprints and iris scans from non-citizens, and to use instant biometric checks at the border to ensure New Zealanders re-entering the country were not travelling on forged documents.

Is it just me, or does this stink of americanisation, and unnecessary checks? The current system in NZ is not broken, so why are we fixing it?

Particularly because tourism in NZ is one of our major earners, would this not scare tourists away? I know of several people who now refuse to travel to the USA due to the fingerprint requirements, I'm sure they are not isolated, and this occurs in many cases.

Did I miss something or are we the 51st state already? :rolleyes:


Original article: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4326391a28.html

[404 Titan]

NZScion

If you’ve got nothing to hide then what is the problem. I go to the US all the time and to be quite frank it doesn’t take any longer to get through immigration than it did before. The whole notion of passports is outdated and open to fraud. The sooner we go away from it to something that is more secure, the better.

[flyby_kiwi]

I think its a step in the right direction. Why should NZ take the risk of having people here who travelled on forged documents if there is technology to prevent it?
A well forged passport is worth tens of thousands of dollars..... you dont spend that kind of $$$ unless you have something serious to hide. Its very airy fairy to suggest that its an invasion of privacy and in turn we should just let everyone in.

Idealy iris scans will eventually replace the need to travel on a passport at all.

[Hambleite]

"Did I miss something or are we the 51st state already?"

No, that's us in Britain

[flyby_kiwi]

As has been mentioned if you have nothing to hide whats the problem? 'They' may get more info on you...... does it matter? What is the worst 'they' going to do with you biometric details? Print out a list of travel movements? :( There are bigger fish to fry than the paraniod.
I think a couple of white domes currently sitting at the top of the south island will be invading more of your privacy than a fingerprint across the border.
Besides whats the alternative? Take the risk of illegal immigrants so that the rest of us dont loose our warm fuzzy feeling? Not taking a dig at anyone but its exactly that sort of naivety about the bigger world that has made NZ the PC joke it is.

[NZScion]

My issue isn't that the information is being collected, I am more concerned about the data security and what happens with my information after it has been collected. As long as it is secure and not being used to invade my privacy I'm happy. I seem to recall an incident in the UK not too long ago where tax information was sent and "lost" by post. Who knows what sort of problems this kind of information leak could cause if it were to fall into unscrupulous hands? Please bear in mind that I, like most of the posters here, am a pilot, and I'm sure that the CAA have enough paperwork and information from me to fill a small library. As for the phrase "if you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about", I appreciate the logic behind this statement, but where do you draw the line. There needs to be a boundary between information required and personal information. We all have a right to (an ever dwindling amount of) privacy. What comes next? DNA samples?

Admittedly there have been some isolated incidents in recent times (Israeli spies caught faking passports to name one), but the fact that these attempts were detected. Unless there is some evience out there that we are not catching these people, and at this time I have seen none, I will still believe that the current level of security is adequate. Can someone show me that the system is broken and needs fixing?

Furthermore, as I mentioned in my first post, there are people who will no longer visit this country due to these security measures. I realise that these people make up a minority, however, bearing in mind that tourism is New Zealand's largest export earner (even bigger than agriculture - and that is saying a lot), is this not something we should be striving to protect? A quick internet search says that international tourism contributed $7.4 billion (18.5%) of New Zealand's total exports in 2004 (Source (http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=23457)). If this were to reduce even by 5%, it would represent a loss of $370 million from our (comparatively) tiny economy.

Shouldn't we be throwing out the welcome mat to our international guests, and not fingerprinting them like criminals?

[404 Titan]

NZScion

Can someone show me that the system is broken and needs fixing?

Ask Interpol how many passports are faked each year. The whole system of passports world wide has been broken for years. It is outdated, cumbersome and very easy to fake. What needs to be introduced world wide is a system similar to what Hong Kong or the UAE have. Their system uses an ID card with a multi-layered security chip embedded in it with your personal data, in the case of HK, your fingerprints. To go through immigration you put your card through a reader, it then asks you to remove the card and step through the first gate where it then asks you to put one of your index fingers on a reader. If everything is OK a second gate opens and you pass through. No immigration officials and no passport. The whole process takes less than 30 seconds.

[OhForSure]

404:

Excuse the blatent ignorance on my part, this not being my expertise...

What about the 'new' electronic passports (being issued in AUS for example)? These have some new wiz-bang chip in the middle page which apparently contains specific information about the document holder, which sounds similar to the ID card in the UAE/HK you mentioned. I was always under the impression that these new passports were eventually going to be used in a similar fashion to the way you described the ID cards being used... ie scan, fingerprint or iris check and then pass through a gate, eliminating the need for immigration officers.

In fact I recall hearing/reading about a new trial being used (perhaps initially on AUS aircrew?) at Sydney airport involving iris scans and electronic processing... anyone know what I'm on about? :O

In general I agree with you entirely... the old 'stand in line and wait for your little blue/green/red book to be stamped' trick seems a bit yesteryear doesn't it!?!

[404 Titan]

OhForSure

Yeh I have one of those new passports with the chip in it as well. The only problem is no one is using it to its full potential. Not even Aus or USA. I have used the electronic lane at Sydney on numerous occasions (when it is working). All they are doing here is scanning the front page of your passport and comparing it to what is in their data base and then using some form of facial recognition software to compare who is standing in front of the camera is the person in the passport. I would have to say that 50% of the time the system is broken and when it is working it is slow. The data chip in the passport isn’t used at all for this process.

I will concede that in Aus it would probably be very hard to get away trying to use a forged Aussie passport but in the rest of the world I would think it would be quite easy because there is no sharing of data bases.

[Going Boeing]

404

There are two lanes in SYD, one for facial recognition (which looks like it's destined for the scrap heap due to the reliability problems that you alluded to) and the second is to read the chip in the newer passports. I agree that they are not using the chip to its full capability but they are presently just proving reliability etc.

[404 Titan]

Going Boeing

That’s strange because I’m sure I’ve used both those lanes and they both used facial recognition. I could be wrong though and stand to be corrected. I will check the next time I go through.:ok:

[Oktas8]

While passports with chips embedded are not nearly as "yesterday" as the old style ones, they are still (a little) open to identity theft.

The chips are activated by a radio frequency, hence RFID - radio frequency identification. Passports have to be close to the scanner for a signal to be transmitted, and only authorised agencies are supposed to have the scanners, but it is possible for criminals to mimic the system.

See wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rfid_passport) for specific passport information for each country. This link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID#Passports) mentions some of the security concerns.

Cheers,
O8

[FlexibleResponse]

Who cares about iris and fingerprint scanning when immigration officials may already be collecting and disseminating data associated to our Passports to all an sundry without our knowledge?

I was told of a case in CX a few years ago where a cockpit crewmember was stopped by a US Immigration Officer and asked if he knew what information was contained on his Passport details. The Immigration Officer was quite irate that the crewmember had data on his Passport that identified him as "a Union Activist" without the crewmember's knowledge. The Officer insisted that the incredulous crewmember had "a right to know".

Was this data on his Passport, or is there a "shared" information system between some countries?

Do you know what secret data will come up when your Passport is read?

It would be good if someone knowledgeable could comment...

[bob55]

I would actually like to see a reduction of measures of AU/NZ citizens travelling to each others country.

We should model it on the EU, so that citizens of either country can travel with photo ID, others need passports.

Perhaps even go the Shengen approach and honour each others visitor visas. In that instance, trans-tasman flights would basically be domestic flights.

If it works in Europe, I can't see why it wouldn't work here.

[flyby_kiwi]

FlexibleResponse,
There is no secret data that comes up when you passport is read. When it goes into the machine all that comes up is what is on you bio-details page.
If you are wanted by any of the border agenices (usually only either Customs or Immigration) then the officer will be alerted to that fact and you wil be escorted off accordingly. At that point in time the offical does not actually know why you have been stopped. While there maybe info on you, it does not present any details when the passport is read.
Also there is almost no info shared between countries, as amongst other things none of the border agencies across the world have integrated computer systems.
Unless you have a very colourful history with the law at your destination, all they will know is what the airline is required to send them which is your flight travel movements and boi-details that the airline gets off your passport at checkin.
Times will change and every country is different but I can assure you there is 'no secret data', And highly doubt there is any truth to the CX story. You can write in and request what they know about you.

[Carrier]

"As has been mentioned if you have nothing to hide whats the problem? 'They' may get more info on you...... does it matter? What is the worst 'they' going to do with you biometric details?"
I am amazed that there are so many ignorant people about, or do they have a sinister agenda? Have these people heard nothing about what happened to the jews in nazi Germany and how it was assisted by the information gathering of IBM? Do a Google search for the book "IBM and the Holocaust" by Edwin Black and similar topics. www.news.com/2009-1082-269157.html

[HardCorePawn]

I would actually like to see a reduction of measures of AU/NZ citizens travelling to each others country.

We should model it on the EU, so that citizens of either country can travel with photo ID, others need passports.

Perhaps even go the Shengen approach and honour each others visitor visas. In that instance, trans-tasman flights would basically be domestic flights.

If it works in Europe, I can't see why it wouldn't work here.

:eek: I hope this doesnt happen... otherwise they'll take away the free "inflight goodies" (aka "booze") and make us pay!

Seriously tho, they must be getting close, I mean, we're allowed to queue up in the same immigration lanes now! :E

[pilotdude09]

Seriously tho, they must be getting close, I mean, we're allowed to queue up in the same immigration lanes now!

At some airports....not including Perth Business Park :rolleyes: We are put into " Others" :uhoh:

In my NZ passport i have one of the chips aswell never seen it used yet, been back to NZ a couple times with it and they just scan it like they used to.

Does AKL have any eletronic lanes or anything like that for these passports or is it line up like it always has been??

[bob55]

You can still buy Duty Free UK to Ireland.

[flyby_kiwi]

Carrier,
The bottom line is that despite the suspicions and paranoia expressed by a few, the benefits are much greater.
WW2 was one thing but this is the modern day, societies threats have changed.

[Warragul]

Both lanes at SYD (and MEL) use facial recognition. One extracts the photo on the epassport chip (AUS ppts only)and compares to you standing in front of the kiosk to decide if you are the passport holder. The other looks up a photo held in a database which 'enrolled' users (mainly QF crew and Platinum FF) had a photo taken for. Enrollment for this system finished years ago as epassports came about.

Both these (they were only ever intended as proof of concepts - political masters not withstanding))will be replaced with the permanent solution mid next year. This is already in use at BNE and very soon CNS.

To access data on the chip (photo/name/dob), the check digits from the machine readable zone on the passport need to be supplied to 'unlock' the chip. This is known as Basic Access Control (BAC). Theory being without the passport bio page details you can't read the chip. Hackers say this can be broken - but this is the current international (ICAO i think) standard. I believe there is a higher standard access control being mooted by some authorities.

[lingasting]

flyby_kiwi (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=51519)

"..............despite the suspicions and paranoia expressed by a few."

You may very well eat your words, when at some stage in the future you won't even be able to F**t without the govenment knowing.

You don't think it will happen? I strongly advise you to think again.

[divingduck]

From a pax point of view, the Egate in the UAE airports is a huge bonus to those of us that live here.
You swipe your gate card, the door opens and you put your finger on the pad...done in seconds and you don't spend bl00dy hours queuing up for the passport control officer...absolutely brilliant, it must have saved my wife and I literally days of queuing in the past 2 years.

HNY all.

[Metro man]

The biometric passport can contain fingerprint data, though the Australian one uses a picture of the holder only, at this time.

Singapore uses a similar system to Hong Kong with a smart card and a finger print. However immigration at the main terminals at Changi is usually so efficient little time is saved. Main benefit would be at the budget terminal or land check points.

Singapore is very strong on security, citizens and permanent residents are fingerprinted and have to carry a bar coded identity card. This card has a thumb print on the back which can be matched to you in seconds using a special scanner. Before you can rent any acommodation the landlord must check your passport to confirm you are legally in the country.

Australia is a difficult country to enter but once in relatively easy to disappear. Singapore is the opposite, with very few countries requiring visas.

The absence of illegal immigrants has considerable advantages regarding the burden on the health and wefare systems, crime and terrorism. Wotrth giving your fingerprints for.

[Shagpile]

The bottom line is that despite the suspicions and paranoia expressed by a few, the benefits are much greater.
WW2 was one thing but this is the modern day, societies threats have changed

I think the argument has already been partially presented about this being dangerous (wrong place at wrong time - and even worse now, not having access to a lawyer and trial to prove your innocence if they think your a terrorist), and people are using the "i've got nothing to hide" argument. The problem with this is, "nothing to hide" is wrong - EVERYBODY has got something to hide. Everybody is doing something wrong or illegal somewhere. You think you dont ? Have you downloaded a song off the internet? Ever driven your car too fast above the speed limit, only for a few seconds accidently, or driven while tired? Ever driven home from the pub 2 minutes around the corner *probably* on the edge of 0.05? Walked away from the shop after they put the wrong value in the register? Claimed that home office supply on tax even though you dont use it for work? If a government can criminalize a society, then they have ultimate control because nobody wants to get in trouble with the law.

If your bored and have the time, google the essay "I've got nothing to hide, and other misunderstandings of privacy" by Daniel Solove.

The "suspicious" and "paranoia" of our society should be well respected members - they are the people who have so far lobbied against national ID cards and other invasions of privacy. If you dont want gps units installed in your car monitoring your speed, location and activities [a hypothetical], the "paranoia" are the people who will complain to the press about it.

As for privacy with biometric data - different people have different standards of privacy. At the end of the day, it is not a computer looking at your information (although fishnet data mining is another topic altogether), but another human being. If you are not comfortable with somebody else knowing about your most intimate details, then your privacy has been invaded. All the girls out there with butterfly tatto's near your privates - I bet you did that for your boyfriend, not the 50 year old immigration officer's amusement. If you dont understand this - what level of privacy would you tolerate another person knowing information about you? Would you be comfortable with biometric data such as fingerprints or iris? How about security cameras watching everywhere you go? How about somebody at telstra seeing which porn sites you are looking up on the internet? How about cameras in your own home watching you have sex? Why do you have curtains in your living room and bedroom. After all - your not doing anything wrong, so what have you got to hide?

[lingasting]

Shagpile

A very good post and well written.

Until corruption is rooted out of society this information is liable to fall into "wrong hands" somewhere along the line.

[PyroTek]

just a thought, i reckon it'd be pretty cool if ASIC holders could use their ASIC's as a passport type thing, it'd make it so much easier for flight crew with a documentation side of things, Less papers make things easier, having an ASIC (or equivalent) as a passport could make things for flight crews so much easier.
But... It'd cost money and Mr Man at the top doesn't like spending money on things that don't assist him

[mcdude]

As mentioned the HK system is great: absolutely no contact with grumpy immigration staff. If they could just reduce the processing time from 30secs to say 10secs (i've adopted the typical HK every second counts mentality....) ;)

[haughtney1]

The old lines oft trotted out.."if you have nothing to hide..."
etc etc
Thats not the point, in fact, thats even CLOSE to the point:=

Make no mistake, this technology is far more about control and data gathering, than it ever will be about "protection".
Now off in sleepy old NZ some may think that this is the answer to most of the problems of border security/identity theft....when the reality is much more akin to another layer of state imposed beauracracy that lacks any real practical value.
Still not convinced? come over to the UK..more "data protection" laws than you can shake a Jihadi's fist at....and yet millions of innocent people have been left potentially exposed thanks to ministerial blunders, and lax procedures....and you think it won't happen there?

[shitthatsbig]

Hopefully they will position this equipment on the way out of NZ to stop the bloody Kiwi's ruining our country. If this doesn't work I suggest a strategically positioned firing range on the east coast of OZ so we can get some shooting practice....2 birds with 1 stone stuff.;)