Whatever happened to courtesy in Hong Kong ATC?

[alvega]

It has been quite noticeable for some time now that Hong Kong Air Traffic Controllers are losing their good habits of politeness that for many years told them apart from the rest of the professionals in this area of the world, particularly since some local staff started taking the seat behind the microphone on the other side of the frequency. What happened to the good mornings, good evenings, or even a simple hello or goodbye that we all used to hear every time we tuned into the frequency or were released to the next one? Usually, old habits die hard, but for an old habit to die, first it has to exist. Apparently, for these new controllers, these habits were never learned. It’s a pity, because, for an european who flew in The Old Continent for many years, it was a pleasure to realize that at least in a small area of this “asian air jungle” we could still experience the politeness and civility that was part of the relationship between controllers and pilots. Workload and fatigue are no excuses for that kind of behavior. We pilots are also subject to these pressures and if you listen carefully, 99% of the pilots flying in HK airspace start their call with a greeting and don’t change to the next frequency without a goodbye. Maybe it is time to introduce a class of good manners in the training syllabus for the new controllers.
A simple sign of courtesy can make life so much easier, even or especially under pressure.

[sizematters]

Maybe they had a visit to New York ATC to learn "R/T Etiquette".......!!!

[Ndicho Moja]

Perhaps the controllers could not find "pleasantries" in the RT hand book. Come to think of it neither did I. As with please and thank you in the cockpit, it is a given. Nice but unnecessary chatter on busy frequencies.

[alvega]

My dear Ndicho Moja, maybe you are right and I am wrong. We are all too busy and too much in a hurry nowadays, aren’t we? “Pleasantries” as you call it are a waste of time. And you are right again when you say that they don’t come in any RT hand book (or in the Life hand book, for that matter). We learned it (some of us, anyway) from our parents as they learned it from the generation before. It’s called evolution. Why must it be any different in a professional activity, when it takes only two or three seconds to make the difference? Perhaps you should try it; it might make your day a bit more pleasant and less gray.

Regards

[Ndicho Moja]

Not a question of right or wrong. Nothing to do with evolution or social order, just a transfer of information. Again, nice, pleasant even feel-good, but really not required or necessary. In a social environment, then that is quite different.:)

[gweiloairline]

Standard ICAO R/T phraseologies discourage greetings, courtesies as well as expletives.##

If you want us to give our regards to your folks, lets do it over the aviator pub after hours. At work, remember we talks to hundreds of pilots and you only talk to a few (ATC & company only) while we wreck our brains;
Just no time to waste on trivialities, sorry!

[Mr. Bloggs]

Good morning HK, it CX xxx at Elato, FL 390, sqawking 7500.:}:E

Good Morning CX xxx, cleared the Elato 1A, 25R, high speed through Melon.:ok:

Roger (read back).

What wrong with that. Are we not allowed to say “Good Morning”:=

If you get, give it back.:ok:

If it is busy as hell (like close in on Director) get the job done first. We will have beers later.:ok:

[ALPHA FLOOR]

A certain CX BTC on the airbus will give you an upHill right up if you use ANY pleasentries on the radio!

Small men with big ego's and the power of ERAS, where will it end?

AFL

[2 cents]

That knob is well known. He has somewhere bewteen ZERO and 0.001% respect as a person and an aviator.

Nothing wrong with an occasional pleasantry.

[oriental flyer]

Unfortunately the BTC is correct if strict interpretation is applied, but there always has to be room for latitude, does a hello, good bye, or even more to the point a thank you if the controller has done you a favour imply poor RT . I don't think so unless the frequency is maxed out , then pleasantries are not appropriate, but conversely not giving the squawk code on first contact requires the controller to go back and ask for it. This lapse increases the controllers workload and the RT congestion far more than a simple good evening.
in defense of the Hong Kong controllers, I can understand that they are becoming so busy with the increase in air traffic that pleasantries have no place in their working lives but that shouldn't detract from the thoroughly professional job that they do every day of the year. From me to them, a big thank you for keeping us safe every day of the year and that trumps everything else.

[Lovely_Management]

You want this?

Alpha Bravo Charlie 123 please turn immediately right heading 150 for collision avoidance. Please expedite thank you.

Some of you might notice a guy always repeats your callsign, and thank this and that, say the instruction twice....you want this?

How many controller(s) you are talking to in a sector and how many pilots a controller is talking to.

Courtesy?? Care about good morning, goodbye...?? Go home and teach your parrot. Perhaps someone will greet you like this "WELCOME HOME".

Good xxxxx etc etc are not standard ATC phraseologies and should not be encouraged, we are taught not to do that!

DD

[routetuner]

G'day! Initial contact and when leaving the frequency it's nice for the pleasantries.In between it's just responding to instructions, don't need please/ thanks- we all know that. For those who cannot exchange pleasantries on initial call and when leaving that's ok we know( as you do ) that you have problems. For me I like to say g'day-cya- etc. With a name like moja i can understand why you don't! CYA.

[HKG Phooey]

....STANDBY......:ugh:

[The Kook]

Alvega, shut the F#$K up! Please


would you like a hug?

[19weeler]

Maybe finally HKG ATC has realised what a bunch of arrogant prics we are (as this thread demonstrates) and are tired of being nice to us!:yuk:

[AGNES]

If you want someone nice to you, you should stop barking to us like "What's the delay?":)

[alvega]

I want to thank you for your posts and wish you all a Merry Christmas.
As for you, “The Kook”, if I wanted a hug from an ogre, I would choose the Shrek. He may be green and have bad breath but his manners are a lot better than yours, not to mention the spelling.
For “AGNES” and all the rest of the pre-programmed robotic bunch, get a life and, by the way, don’t forget to change the batteries, if you can read my barking.

[787dreamer]

alvega, merry christmas to you and those who care. I'm an HKG ATC and I do agree with your observation, many of the local youngsters don't know what manner / politeness is. Ok, if it's a radar environment, it may be barely justified to skip those greetings on occasions, but in a tower environment, would someone else get delayed for greetings between ATC / pilot? Get an $x extra fuel burn (0.5 sec delay)? Well then file a formal complaint against ATC or even sue us!

But on the other side, many locally based pilots are not that polite either! (After all, who started this in the first place, ATC / pilots? I don't know.) In the past, I would initiate greetings to the pilots, but I don't do this too often now (at least to the locally based airlines), as it sound stupid especially when you have a couple of pilots in a row who don't really care. Having said that, my bottom line is whenever a pilot says good morning, I would do the same in return (unless I'm busy with something else, e.g. urgent coordination with another controller, maybe).

[off_off_dim_and_off]

It has been quite noticeable for some time now that Hong Kong Air Traffic Controllers are losing their good habits of politeness that for many years told them apart from the rest of the professionals in this area of the world, particularly since some local staff started taking the seat behind the microphone on the other side of the frequency.

What could you expect if the first concept that PP teaches students is :"All pilots are idiots!"? :cool:

[jonathon68]

Sadly it seems that good manners are declining with each successive generation throughout society.

I try to treat people in the way which I myself like to be treated. Brief, simple curtesies and good manners are all basic components of building and sustaining my crew into a team. The same goes beyond the crew to Traffic staff, Engineers, the refueller etc all the way to the Hotel staff when we check-in at the end of the day.

As for R/T, when it is busy lets stick to the essentials, but when possible why not say please and thanks for the "direct to" or "cancel speed restriction" etc. The same common sense applies inside the cockpit. Don't expect me to be saying please and thank you during a rejected take off or a missed approach, but I would be thanking my F/O for his support etc afterwards.

HKG ATC are not perfect, but neither are we CX pilots. I often cringe when overhearing my collegues blunt or sarcastic transmissions, but then I do also share their frustrations from time to time with certain ATC controllers or situations.

When frustrations start to rise I find it helpful to consider how the same situation would be handled with ATC in BOM, DEL, JFK etc. Personally I will happily take the delay or disruption under the control of HKG ATC anyday compared to almost everywhere else in the world (except perhaps LHR, who are and always will be the worlds best).

A few months ago I flew in from south asia to HKG. Just prior to descent we had a medical emergency, and received the usual superb response from HKG ATC for this situation.

After the flight I phoned the HKG ATC supervisor to register my thanks for the slick arrival and very professional support by his guys and girls from 200 miles out all the way to our parking bay. As we turned into the parking bay the ambulance was pulling into position, nice job! (My sick passenger ultimately ok in hospital) Below is a synopsis of the phone call.

Ring... Ring...

ATC "Yeh"

Me "Hello, is that the ATC Supervisor?"

ATC "Yep"

Me "Ah.. I was the Captain of CXxxx. I am just calling to thank your guys for the very nice arrival from xxx. We had a medical emergency and your guys really did an excellent job of getting us where we needed asap"

ATC "OK". Click (He just hangs up on me!!)

Me "Ohh..."

My initial response was to think "F*uck Y*u, that's the last time I ever thank HKG ATC for anything". But in all fairness, the Supervisor sounded as if his first language was not English, so perhaps his words (or lack of) were not a true reflection of what he meant to say.

If this Supervisor did not pass on my thank you to the guys and girls in HKG radar, approach, director, tower and ground that evening, then shame on him. Thank you for this incident, plus a similar one more recently and the day to day HKG ATC service which I have taken for granted for the past 12 years.

However please lets keep up the good manners (but keep it short) where it is possible.

[throw a dyce]

jon68,
Ah but the supervisor was probably a local.That sort of call doesn't fit into the number crunching profile.I recall a Gweilo collegue getting bollocked for saving a lost PPl's life.Reason non standard R/T.What is standard R/T in HK?:ugh:
Having worked in that place a few years ago I'm not surprised by that dreadful response. I would have said thank you and I'll pass that on to the people cocerned.If you called EGPD ATC where I work now,I would say the same.The trouble with HK supervisors is that their heads are either stuck up their own arses remembering Kai Tak,or playing on the computer.They are without exception divorced from modern ATC in the real world and have zero people management skills.:)

[Bedder believeit]

johnathan68: Often when the supervisors phone is answered, it's by an assistant, or by the assistants supervisor. He/she will indeed answer "yes" to your query "Is that the ATC supervisor?" because that's all they can competently do. If and I stress the if, the real watch supervisor answers, then I for one would be most surprised if you didn't get a full and comprehensive acknowledgement of your "thanks". As a group, we controller's are quite happy to receive a "thank-you" from you people, but the assistants as a group, are not intimately involved, and more often than not, wouldn't understand. Did you see the movie "Lost in translation"?

[LapSap]

Yeh, Bedder is probably right. The reason being, the Supe was probably plugged in doing Macau sector, caus we don't have enough staff for that. Or maybe he was checkin some bod caus we don't have enough authorised examiners. Or maybe he was training someone, coz we don't have enough instructors. Or maybe he was emptying the bins, coz ..... you get the idea. Seems that the only way out is to call back retired bods and run the place like an old folks home. I'm expecting handrails in the toilets and walking frames in the foyer any day now.:ugh:

[throw a dyce]

Better warm up my zimmer now.Still goes faster than a DB golf cart.;)

[bekolblockage]

Hey, throw a dyce. 10 years ago today! - or is that tomorrow for you ? :O.
Bloody Birdseed.

[throw a dyce]

Bekol,
Hey happy 10th birthday.Yes thanks to BA mangling 3 747's I was a little late.
Good times.Gweilo Airlines at Moonbase CLK.Finding out that a boat is a form of transport.WHY do the Chinese do this? 10 bucks!! I remember my landlady in DB offering me a DB cart,for only HKD 3000.I said £250 that's very cheap to buy one of THOSE things.:=:=:
Anyway to everyone in the Jan 98 starters,I hope you're all well all over the world.:ok:

[CXChildLabour]

lol, maybe you should try saying good morning in chinese if you think the locals ain't responding to you, lol...

[Bedder believeit]

I can't believe that a single beat up by a single Pilot (Alvega - Macau based by the look of it) that turns a minor specific into a sweeping generalisation can reach page 3 of todays (20th January) SCMP. Is it a "bad news day?", maybe we need a war. There will always be Controllers - and pilots for that matter, that will be pretty thin on the ground when it comes to pleasantries, there always has been. Likewise there will always be those that will greet and farewell whenever they humanly can, because that is the nature of their politeness.
You quote: "A Senior Hong Kong based Airbus captain said that the decline in courteousness showed the experience level had "dropped markedly"". What a load of rubbish. Maybe it's the controllers having to work at a much higher level for longer periods that is to blame. What has experience got to do with courteousness? Are we all supposed to prostrate ourselves snivelling on the ground in deference to the opinion of said Senior Airbus captain? Sure newer controllers (all locals) may be a little shy to open up at times, but that is human nature. After all, this job can be a bit intimidating at times.

[pedds]

I'm new to this forum.

I fly into HK two to three times a month with a longhaul low cost airline and found an article in (I think it was) Sunday's South China Morning Post. Interesting how something as relatively minor can make an article in a national paper. But the contents did strike a chord.

For the mostpart I find HK ATC polite and efficient but I was more than a little dissapointed by one controller (from a large landmass to the south south east of HK by the accent) who, when he thought my FO had not replied to his request repeated it and then told him to 'listen properly next time'. It was the controller, not the FO, who had missed the reply. An easy misunderstanding but an unecessary display of bad manners which I have never heard in Europe.

And yes, there is time for a 'good morning' or 'cheers' even on a busy frequency. It takes some 2 seconds...I think we can spare that.

[throw a dyce]

Not listening to readbacks.Oz controller tut tut:=

[SuzieWong]

Hard to talk on mobile phone and do appr at the same time.:sad:

[leftof]

It was a pity that you did not write more about the need to recruit extra controllers for hong kong airport as its traffic workland increases. An opportunity lost.

[throw a dyce]

I thought they were recruiting more? Locals and Real Time ad for a couple of days.:rolleyes:

[alvega]

Having flown for quite some time now from the other side of the delta I cannot avoid expressing my gratitude and admiration for the professionals working in HK ATC,specially during the summer season when on our navigation displays red is the predominant color.

Totally agreed. Not an issue.

I have witnessed on numerous occasions brilliant displays of competence from these controllers facilitating departures and approaches that elsewhere would be impossible.

Indeed so have I. The only difference is that before, we were contacting humans whereas nowadays it looks more and more like we are talking to robots. Different concepts of efficiency.

...and on very rare occasions have I been confronted with what some would consider lack of courtesy displays, however they are normally associated with heavy traffic/meteo conditions in the terminal area...

Not so rare anymore. And how about London, Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels, Frankfurt, Rome, Madrid or even Beijing and Shanghai. I don’t think their stress levels are in any way lower than those in Hong Kong.
Anyway, I've noticed that things have improved a tad in the last few weeks and I salute those who have put a little bit of effort in that direction. Not such a big sweat, is it?

Alvega - Macau based

[Offchocks]

I only fly up to HKG about 8-9 times a year and have not experienced any lack of courtesy......just the opposite.

[Mrs Smith]

Hard to talk on mobile phone and do appr at the same time

Why is that person allowed to do that? Where is the supervisor?
Civil servants.:cool:

[jonathon68]

I read the SCMP article on Sunday 20th January regarding this thread, with some surprise.

Obviously lots of HKATC controllers did as well, since when I flew the following day there was an outbreak of good manners!

It was comparable to the table talk when one is taken home for dinner/ to meet the future in-laws for the first time.

Things have settled down a bit as the week has progressed, but overall I think a valid point has "hit home".

Lets all keep up the good work!

[inciter]

Let's not get carried away by placing Hong Kong in the same league as the airports mentioned above.

In terms of pax numbers it is ranked 14th in the world, and more importantly in terms of movements it's not even ranked in the top 30.

[alvega]

Exactly my point.

[SuzieWong]

looks more and more like we are talking to robots.

Strange. Thats how it sounds from this end. :O



P.S. With 48 mill pax last year we might nearly make it to top 10! :)
Sadly still way outside top 30 movement.:(

Are you missing your right base at VMMC? :ok:

[Bedder believeit]

Good morning/day/evening/year Mr Inciter; where do we (or you) place HK in the overall (difficulty) scheme of things. If you think that mere runway movements at the home airport is the sole measure of whether or not ATC people are busy or in a bit of a stew, then I question your "smarts". There are a myriad of aspects that make ATC workload go up and down, ranging from runway configurations, taxyway layouts, other airports in the terminal area, idiots (on both ends of the radio) etc, etc, etc. I assume from your post that you are a "big aeroplane, international driver", well try telling the 21 year old guy flying a single pilot IFR baron into Bankstown at night when there is a southerly buster going through the Sydney area about workload. OK, he's not a hero driving a B747, but so what! Trying to stay alive can have it's moments. My point being that the old phrase "Lies, damned lies and statistics" should be noted. At times Controllers anywhere, at any airport can be up to their ears in crap, and the same applies to the whole swathe of the flying fraternity. A normally intelligent person will recognise this and do with or without the pleasantries as needed.
I'm principally pissed that this fairly innocuous and probably tongue in cheek thread (on PPRuNe) was blown out of all proportion by some of the media here in HK, and managed to make it into both the English (SCMP) and Chinese press when there was no call for this to happen, especially the supposed opinion of an annonymous "Senior Airbus Captain...."
"bye bye" :=

[alvega]

Are you missing your right base at VMMC?

SuzieWong, up until your post, I was ready to concede that the new generation of controllers which you unquestionably belong to had had a flawless training for such a demanding professional activity. Unfortunately, you have just ruined everything with this single comment. You’ve shown us all how flawed your training was by not realising what the “right base at VMMC” or any other shortcut, for that matter, means to an airline in the long run. In the old days it was a sure thing, we didn’t even have to ask, it was given any time the conditions permitted. Presently, it is totally out of the question even thinking about asking for it and I stopped requesting it the moment I noticed that new accent in the frequency. You know, I understand it’s a tough job being a good professional in this environment, and the more I think about it, the more respect and admiration I have for the older generation that was sitting where you are now. They were top professionals, but with a touch (the right amount) of charm. And that, I can assure you, is even tougher. Finally, I suggest you read again what sylversurfer wrote in his reply to your disastrous comment, you might learn something.

Best regards, nice talking to you too…