Pilot Shortage versus Endorsement / Training Costs

[pilotshorvath]

Is the availability of pilots linked to Endorsement / Training costs?

I was reading quite a few threads where everyone was arguing whether or not to pay for an endorsement or training for the ‘major airlines’. I have no intention of entering such an argument, BUT it did give me an idea for a TOTALLY NEW idea for a thread (i think)!:}

Can a pilot shortage/surplus be measured by whether or not an Airline covers the cost of the endorsement / training, or bonds you, or makes it salary sacrifice? Are the two mutually related/exclusive? Does it mean that if most airlines in any particular country are charging for the endorsement or salary sacrificing then there is no pilot shortage in that country?:confused:

I hereby throw down the gauntlet to all ppruners around the world to provide basic information about endorsements / training both now and 5 years ago, and will endeavour to keep the list growing! It will be interesting to see if we do actually have pilot shortages or not! I will list what I think are some current details (QF, DJ) but please correct me if I am wrong!

Happy ppruning!

Australia:

Qantas:

2002 - Endorsement / training: covered by employer. Bond: ?????
2007 - Endorsement / training: covered by employer. Bond: ?????

Jetstar:

2002 – N/A
2007 - Endorsement / training: ????. Bond: ?

Virgin Blue:

2002 - Endorsement / training: $30,000AUD Upfront by Employee. Bond: ????
2007 - Endorsement / training: $30,000AUD Upfront or Salary Sacrifice by Employee. Bond: 30 months, $30,000AUD

Tiger:

2002 - N/A
2007 - Endorsement / training: Endorsement Required for Start - own cost. Bond: ?


New Zealand:

Air New Zealand:

2002 - Endorsement / training: ????. Bond: ?
2007 - Endorsement / training: ????. Bond: ?


Hong Kong:

Cathay Pacific:

2002 - Endorsement / training: ????. Bond: ?
2007 - Endorsement / training: ????. Bond: ?


United Arab Emirates:

Emirates:

2002 - Endorsement / training: ????. Bond: ?
2007 - Endorsement / training: ????. Bond: ?

Etihad:

2002 - N/A
2007 - Endorsement / training: ????. Bond: ?


FEEL FREE TO ADD OTHERS!!

Eg. Singapore, Thai, etc etc.

[pilotshorvath]

With all the other threads moaning about having to pay for endorsements, I thought this thread would have taken off like wild fire!:bored::confused:

Did I miss a meeting?

Or is the thread too level-headed/factual for a place like pprune!?:D:ok:

[WynSock]

I was just so excited I couldn't speak.

[neville_nobody]

Virgin Blue 737 you still pay up front, or salary sacrifice over 12 months. Either way you pay. $30 000

Tiger type endorsement is required for employment.

Can a pilot shortage/surplus be measured by whether or not an Airline covers the cost of the endorsement / training, or bonds you, or makes it salary sacrifice?

Airlines do what they can get away with. However is saying that at the rate that it is going I doubt whether the current cost models are realistic. These guys are used to operating with ridiculous surpluses of pilot labour, which I don't think will be around for much longer. Not sure how all the LCC will go if they have to start funding their own training from ppl, which is where is all seems to be heading.

Don't forget most of the Airlines in Asia pay for the entire cost of training their local pilots, from day 1!!!!

[Capt Wally]

................I personally don't have a problem with paying for an endorsement, most of us did sometime during out career one way or another!:) You (as in Mr generic pilot) paid for a constant speed retract endorsement some time during that ride to the top, it's no different now. If you don't like the idea in this current climate then simply don't apply ! If you have strong morals on this subject then that's fine I respect that but be prepared to suffer in the long term whilst yr mates fly/pay off their endorsement & in the years to come will have pretty much forgotten about it anyway:-)
Once upon a time there where 2 winged planes only but they dreamed up monoplanes just like the airlines have dreamed up paying for a type endorsement. Aviation is constantly evolving. Like the continious rising petrol prices, we still pay them don't we ?:)

Oh how that will spark someones ego for sure:}

Capt wally :-):)

[pilotshorvath]

Airlines do what they can get away with. However is saying that at the rate that it is going I doubt whether the current cost models are realistic. These guys are used to operating with ridiculous surpluses of pilot labour, which I don't think will be around for much longer. Not sure how all the LCC will go if they have to start funding their own training from ppl, which is where is all seems to be heading.

Don't forget most of the Airlines in Asia pay for the entire cost of training their local pilots, from day 1!!!!


neville_nobody, well said.

It is quite common knowledge that in China there is a MASSIVE expansion happening at the moment. They are sending their cadets left right and centre (literally Perth, Adelaide and Melbourne at least) to get the numbers needed to crew the expansion. So, it is understandable that these Airlines (China Southern et al) are footing the bill.

So, on the contrary, there isn't such a shortage of pilot in Australia just yet (where they are still charging/salary sacrificing).

Anybody know about America at the moment? Or even England? You hear of ads for pilots like "must have flown 35 hours in the last year". Charging there?

Oh how that will spark someones ego for sure:}

Capt Wally, haha.

I wise man once told me the two golden rules women need to follow (if they want the relationship to survive) if they ever date a pilot:;)
"
1) Never get between him and his career;
2) Never break his ego"

Fine words indeed!:}

[compressor stall]

My $0.02.
I have no issue with a reasonable bond (reducing at 10-15k pa). After all an airline is investing a lot of money on you and you as an employee have a moral obligation for a return of service.

As bonds were tested in court by a few (selfish?) individuals and every time that I am aware of the company lost so any employer will know that they have no chance of recovering their $$ when someone inevitably moves on.

If anything in these times with the ability to nip off to almost any carrier you wish, companies are more likely to insist you BYO endo.

[pilotshorvath]

Virgin Blue 737 you still pay up front, or salary sacrifice over 12 months. Either way you pay. $30 000


So if you pay up front, or salary sacrifice after 12 months, are you still bonded? :confused:

[Dragun]

No, but salary sacrifice works out much better because the cost is taken out of your gross salary and the rest is taxed.

e.g. Salary $100,000 - Endorsement $30,000 = $70,000 taxable income (over the year).

If you count the interest you're not paying on an up front loan for $30,000 then it's a better deal again.

Having said that, Neville hit it on the head - airlines do what they can get away with. It feels to me that more and more people are saying no to paying. Whilst it's a long process, it will get back to the point of costs being covered by the airline as long as enough people keep say no!

[salamundi]

I couldn't help myself - I wasn't going to post a reply but sometimes pilots can just be stupid.

This discussion has been going on this site for years. If you are willing to pay for a type rating and do then 1000 people on prune hammer you for doing so and tell you that you are putting a nail in the coffin of aviation. If you don't pay for your type rating you become one of those miserable disgruntled pilots who walks around complaining "why me?" "That should have been my job".

suck it up!
These are the times we live in. If you don't want to pay for your training - fine - GO TO CHINA

Most of us who have travelled can sincerely put our hand on our heart and admit that we do live in the best country on this planet, so if we want to fly here, then yes,we must buy our ticket.
Yes, I could earn more overseas, but I like it here. Yes, I could be a captain if I go to the U.S but they get paid peanuts.

PilotSHorvath - to answer your question, call the ATSB. They praise the likes of VB for standing their ground and not lowering minumims, that way the standard still remains high. The other compaines that are soley occupied by cadets may have a problem on their hands.

My answer to your question is YES. I do think there is a massive shortage. Not of pilots, but of acceptable, suitable pilots. How many times during your training did you see someone that just should not be flying?????? I bet they are in the airlines by now!!!!

[DeltaT]

Kick...

Jetconnect, give a discount to the rating you pay for

Pacific Blue, you pay for the the rating, hence no bond, employed as a contractor

Air NZ (main), they pay, you are bonded, but who cares, you aren't going to leave once you are in!

[Capt Wally]

How about the employers start a new trend with perhaps a bribe or two to the regulators. Everybody who starts with an airline does a simple famil test on the A/C type after some formal ground training to get the hang of how things work & where to find them in the cockpit (low cost, no fuel used) then simply sits in the R/H seat & does exactly as he is told when he is told. (Most modern day jets can easily be flown by one person) That way you do exactly as trades people do, learn on the job! I don't think flying is a fancy profession anymore, it's more a system manager, well at least that's the way it's going.
Slowly you get the hang of it do a test ride along the way sometime & bingo, yr officially endorsed, can fly without assistance everyone is happy & you live happily ever after.
Sound stupid? sure does, but only 'cause aviation has evolved to what it is now from hot air ballon days when nobody knew any better!:)


CW:ok:

[Centaurus]

No, but salary sacrifice works out much better because the cost is taken out of your gross salary and the rest is taxed.



What happens if you fail to meet the required pass standard at the end of the type rating course? Who pays the training provider then? After all presumably you are not employed by anyone while on course so you don't have a salary to sacrifice.

[Howard Hughes]

What happens if you fail to meet the required pass standard at the end of the type rating course?
AS IF!;)

Who pays the training provider then?
I don't know for sure, but suspect with the very few that don't make the grade, the company will just wear the cost!:eek:

[Pluto's gone]

Capt Wally / CS,

Must agree very well said!

Simple if you don't like the T & C's don't apply, if you don't like em and apply and then become digruntled its only yourself to blame.