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Ye Olde Pilot
11th Dec 2007, 01:49
It looks like expat pilots are taking the rap for the recent Phuket accident.
This from todays Bangkok Post.

New tests for foreign pilots in wake of Phuket crash

AMORNRAT MAHITTHIROOK
The One-Two-Go air tragedy at Phuket airport in September has prompted the Civil Aviation Department to require that all foreign pilots working in Thailand cooperate better with their Thai co-pilots. Deputy director-general of the department Wuthichai Singhamanee said that after the crash which killed 90 people in Phuket, officials observed One-Two-Go pilots during flights and found that the airline's many foreign pilots did not cooperate well with their Thai co-pilots.

The foreign pilots' working culture was different from that of the Thais, they said.

Thai pilots had to get to know each other before working well together, but foreigners did not need to do so, the official said.

The department is about to issue a new regulation requiring all foreign pilots working in Thailand to pass a test on their ability to cooperate with their fellow workers. The Crew Resource Management (CRM) test will focus on cooperation between pilots and co-pilots.

However, Mr Wuthichai denied that poor cooperation between the pilots was a factor behind the Sept 16 crash of the One-Two-Go flight, one of three budget airlines operating in Thailand.

Apart from the CRM test, the department will also require all foreign pilots working in Thailand to be tested on their knowledge of Thai aviation laws. The CRM and the Thai aviation law tests will apply to all foreign pilots working in Thailand.

At present, foreign pilots are only tested on flight simulators.
Mr Wuthichai added that aviation officials would also observe pilots in-flight on all other Thai airlines

mark sicknote
11th Dec 2007, 02:01
I do love the Thai logic.:ugh:

If the Thai authorities feel there is a CRM issue that needs to be addressed, why not apply these new regulations to all pilots flying in Thailand?

Rush2112
11th Dec 2007, 03:27
I lived in Bangkok for 3 years, and frequently the only explanation is "TIT" (This Is Thailand).

The word "logic" doesn't seem to be in their dictionaries...

HeliCraig
11th Dec 2007, 07:09
Having some experience of Thailand (non flying though) I think it would be completely fair to say that, whatever the subject matter, they do things entirely their own way. Woe betide anybody who should question it - especially if they are foreign.

Then again, it's their country and they are entitled to run it how they see fit I suppose.

OzExpat
11th Dec 2007, 11:14
The foreign pilots' working culture was different from that of the Thais, they said.
I'd never have guessed... :ugh:

Colonel Klink
11th Dec 2007, 12:40
And I did a year in Thailand as well, in 1992 although flying with Expat pilots. That was soon after the Dash 8 accident on Koh Samui, but before the Thai accident into Kathmandu, the Thai A310 accident at Surat Thani and the Thai 737 that burnt on the ground at Don Muang. I'm sure there are others. And they think applying CRM to Expats will help?

I don't yet know the cause of the MD 83 accident in Phuket although I have flown in there loads of times.It's a safe enough airport with no traps. The facts were that he continued an approach in windshear conditions and crashed. Maybe he had no fuel to hold, maybe he was told the weather was good enough for an approach but whatever the reason, I somehow doubt a few days in class will straighten out systemic failures like this!!

A Very Civil Pilot
11th Dec 2007, 13:44
A Captain I used to fly with told of his time in Korea. none of the local pilots turned up for the CRM training. The reason was that 'only western pilots need to be taught about CRM'.

Colonel Klink
11th Dec 2007, 15:26
A Very Civil Pilot - good post, it seems that Westerners were so bad at CRM they caused None of the nine fatal accidents that Korean had over a 10 year period killing hundreds of passengers, and the same attitude is obviously very much in evidence in Thailand. Total denial, much as I said in my earlier post.

andrijander
11th Dec 2007, 18:52
total speculation here but: doesn't this ring like PR? I mean, it obviously won't do much good except for the people who get extra training -which even may be a minority given it's only foreigns and IF it really is CRM and not "how to please the local guys" as it sounds. And given that the country is run the way it is -whose general's idea was it this time?- they'll all have the feeling that something has been done about it and feel so much better.
Sometimes ignorance is a blessing, isn't it?
And don't get me started on the nationalistic ego thing -had enough of that by now-...
A.

punkalouver
11th Dec 2007, 19:17
And I did a year in Thailand as well, in 1992 although flying with Expat pilots. That was soon after the Dash 8 accident on Koh Samui, but before the Thai accident into Kathmandu, the Thai A310 accident at Surat Thani and the Thai 737 that burnt on the ground at Don Muang. I'm sure there are others. And they think applying CRM to Expats will help?

Seem to remember a 737 stalling and crashing aftertrying to slow down after lying to ATC about position because he thought conflicting traffic was lying.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19870831-0

10002level
11th Dec 2007, 19:32
I do hope that the Thai authorities tackle the highly dangerous problem of foreign registered aircraft flying into their airspace without the benefit of having any Thai flightdeck crew on board. I assume that the likes of BA, QANTAS, United, etc will have to submit their pilots to the Thai authorities for approval.

Colonel Klink
11th Dec 2007, 19:39
On reviewing the Aviation Safety Data base, it would appear that the least of the problems anyone has in Thailand are CRM issues with Expat pilots.

Piltdown Man
11th Dec 2007, 19:50
Thai pilots had to get to know each other before working well together, but foreigners did not need to do so.
I'm proud of that. And I think our trainers are and bless'em, the CAA probably are as well. It's called SOP's. Wuthichai Singhamanee unfortunately appears to be the lunatic in charge of the asylum. But I'm sure that his efforts to improve safety have worked. After all, they didn't anybody last week.
PM

PAXboy
11th Dec 2007, 20:10
Rush2112I lived in Bangkok for 3 years, and frequently the only explanation is "TIT" (This Is Thailand).

The word "logic" doesn't seem to be in their dictionaries...Non-pilot speaking
It's a funny thing but, in Africa, we have a similar saying. When foreigners are perplexed by the way things 'work' we say: "TAB" = That's Africa, Babe!!

Which smiley is best for this :} :uhoh: :mad: :ouch: ?

ZFT
11th Dec 2007, 21:22
With the election only 12 days away, anything stated by any official is posturing.

rotorjay
12th Dec 2007, 15:50
After spending many yrs in Thailand as an Offshore Helicopter Captain I find it interesting that what the authorities are saying is that foreigners need to improve their listening skills in the cockpit.
I must agree some of our foreign members have not exactly been diplomats but the majority have been weeded out and sent on their merry way. We have some very fine Thai Captains and FOs in the system.
I think it is important that cultural differences be placed out side of the cockpit. It has been an uphill battle in trying to create more assertive Thai FOs working in an environment of overly assertive foreigners.
In all fairness the majority of our foreign captains are very aware of these cultural problems and deal with them in a most respectful manner.
The Thai Gov must also confront and deal with this very real CRM problem that quite often appears with the Thai FO.
What I am talking about is the sudden silence in the cockpit when WX falls to minimums or there is an emergency. Suddenly the foreign Captain is single pilot with very little input from his 2nd in command.
Bottom line is that CRM is not a one way street. Seek and ye shall receive.

Ye Olde Pilot
13th Dec 2007, 03:16
Interesting point rotorjay
The Thai Gov must also confront and deal with this very real CRM problem that quite often appears with the Thai FO.
What I am talking about is the sudden silence in the cockpit when WX falls to minimums or there is an emergency. Suddenly the foreign Captain is single pilot with very little input from his 2nd in command.
Bottom line is that CRM is not a one way street. Seek and ye shall receive.

I guess the same applies to a Thai FO flying with an older experienced Thai captain. I'm sure this situation occurs elsewhere across SE Asian carriers.:ugh:

Colonel Klink
13th Dec 2007, 06:55
You are right about that. It was mentioned here years ago that Korean FO's had to buy the Captains presents as part of their culture. (I quite liked that idea myself!!) I don't know if that still exists, but if it does the chances of them speaking up against the Captain in a tight situation must be very limited.

balding biggles
14th Dec 2007, 15:44
Flew in Thailand and Malaysia and although the people were great the CRM was dreaful. I flew jump seat with one Malay P1 whose total conversation with P2 was "anti-ice". Meaning anti-ice on or off. When I questioned this in the hotel I was told that the P2 had to earn his respect and he wouldn't bother to listen or speak to him until he had. Complete T:mad:er.

Sadly as a result I'm very careful about which Far East carriers my familly fly with.

BB

Skydrol Leak
14th Dec 2007, 19:52
I mean; sadly enough but the Thai pilots are lacking behind the JAA and FAA regulations to be quite frank and on the end of the day, why do you have to have so many Europeans and Americans, Australians etc working as Captains? If the Thai pilots could cover this gap in between that's going on since the 60's there would be no questions or inquiries about who was the Capt and F/o and their respective nationalities.
But most of all; I do laugh in the face of the Thai aviation authority while they are trying to find a scapegoat for every mistake they have ever done regarding flying a commercial plane....It actually puts them down to the level with Indonesians,Phillipinos and other third world countries. And guess what? They are thinking the third world country thoughts, no offence...

ShotOne
14th Dec 2007, 21:17
It isn't just the aviation authorities. During the foot and mouth crisis, passengers arriving from europe had to paddle across disinfectant soaked pads -even though the disease is endemic in Thailand. Different industry, same syndrome.

ZFT
14th Dec 2007, 21:22
Skydrol Leak,

Whilst I donít disagree with your comments re the Thai Authorities, the problems are not across Thai Aviation, only some of the later entrants. TG do not have any non Thai flight crews and IMHO they operate in a very professional manner.

v1vRFLY
22nd Dec 2007, 10:36
Without knowing the facts of the accident, we may never know the true cause, but the article suggests that the CVR revealed something disturbing about a mixed crew. Will we ever know? If so, is this the Thai authorities 'saving face,' political posturing, or merely a knee-jerk reaction to an airline that does not even offer CRM to their foreign hired pilots? I really wonder if the other Thai air carriers offer CRM in their training programs.
After many go 'rounds with foreign carriers and working in many training departments, I found the 'pre-Portland' UAL crash mentality is alive and well overseas, particularly in Asia and S AMER [for those who do not remember, this gave birth to modern day CRM]. I froze the SIM on a S AMER DC10 Captain trainee in the flare 50 feet off the runway! I did not critique him at all...he knew what was wrong...I critiqued the FO and FE for not saying one word during the entire ordeal.
During the break, these two approached me and said they wanted to say something, but they could not...for he is the CAPTAIN! I told them they could either die for their Captain, or lose face and live to see another day. Another problem is the 'deer-in-the-headlights' fixation when things become difficult. As a previous post stated, the Captain is usually a single pilot without any assistance from the 'self-loading baggage' in the right seat. This is a problem that training cannot change due to cultural history, and one that needs to seriously be addressed.
Even highly recognized airline training programs (JAL) separate foreigners from nationals during CRM courses, even though they may share the same cockpits. Maybe the Thai authorities are the first in Asia to wake up and smell the ..."tea" ???? :=