multi engine rating

[macflea]

hi guys
after you get your cpl the natural progression is you go on and do your 6 hour minimum multi engine rating and then on to the multi engine i/r starting with about 35 hours sim and finishing with about 15 hours in the a/c.
what i am asking is can you skip the multi engine rating bit and do it later ,starting straight on the sim in the m/e i/r ,because with this current bad weather i will be ages waiting to do my m/e rating when i could being doing my i/r. i thought i could since m/e will be done in a different twin i.e. a seminole than the one on the i/r which is a diamond twinstar , but i have been told i cant.
cheers macflea

[Nearly There]

but i have been told i cant

Correct...

Your multi rating involves a lot of asymetric flight, the begining of your ME/IR in the sim involves asymetric flight, holds ils approaches go arounds etc.

The weather may be pants in the UK, but if your instructor has an IR, then you can climb above the clouds and do some of the multi stuff, and pray for a good day for the circuits.

[pilotpaul]

You must complete the ME training PRIOR to starting the IR course. And it doesn't matter which ME aircraft you use.

[MIKECR]

Not true gents, you can quite easily start the multi IR without having done the ME class rating. You cant sit the IR test however until you have your ME class rating!! I did it that way, 30 hours FNPT2 Sim, THEN ME training, then the remainder of the 55 hour IR on the aircraft. You will actually find that there are a few schools do it that way. When you do the 170A test for the MEIR you will probably get the ME Class rating test at the same time.

Macflea - crack on with at least 30 hours sime time, no reason why you cant do it.

[sick_bag]

you can do th ir test (on a multi) before you do the ME test - strange, but true

[moggiee]

Not true gents, you can quite easily start the multi IR without having done the ME class rating. You cant sit the IR test however until you have your ME class rating!!
Not quite right any more - the CAA told us (a UK FTO) that you must complete the MEP before starting the MEIR. We argued that this was a little over the top and that as long as it was done before the IRT it would be OK, but they were adamant.

[pilotpaul]

ALL - If you read LASORS it is as clear as day

I took the liberty of searching:

Note: An applicant for a multi-engine IR(A) course who
does not hold a multi-engine aeroplane class or type
rating shall have completed the multi-engine training
specified in JAR-FCL 1.261(b)(2) (see Section F3.2)
prior to commencing the flight training for the IR(A)
course.

I also checked through my history books, this has been the case for at least 2 years.

I am aware of schools who aren't aware of this rule - only takes one student to have his/her IR rejected for them to change!

[macflea]

thanks for the reply guys

[Vone Rotate]

Another point about the two different a/c is you can't do the MEP rating in the diamond twin star if you ever want to fly anything else. If you do it in a senica etc you can fly twins as normal.:rolleyes:

I had never come across this but have been told its because the diamond does most the work for you following engine failure. Hence the reason for you having to do the Multi course in one a/c and your IR in the diamond...

[BillieBob]

Another point about the two different a/c is you can't do the MEP rating in the diamond twin star if you ever want to fly anything else.Codswallop! Differences training is required between any two MEP types, irrespective of what they are. If you do the MEP on a Seneca, you need differences training onto, for example, the Duchess the same as if you did the MEP on the Twinstar.

[moggiee]

Another point about the two different a/c is you can't do the MEP rating in the diamond twin star if you ever want to fly anything else. If you do it in a seneca etc you can fly twins as normal.:rolleyes:

When will this nonsense finally be laid to rest?

I had never come across this but have been told The way that most urban myths start!

[AlphaMale]

I did think of this before.

With people saying how easy the DA-42 is to fly, I was wondering why people make the Multi-IR more difficult than it is by sitting the test in a Seneca or a Duchess?

Then I thought would I like to pass the IR test a first time in a twinstar? or make the test harder by doing it in another AC that could potentially make me a better pilot in the long run? Am I really cheating the system ... or myself?

But then I remember reading a post about older generation pilots, banging on about how you should take your training in a C172 and not these new 'easy to fly glass cockpit planes'. At the end of the day an airliner/bizjet is glass cockpit so why do the training in anything different?

This is one thing I have playing on my mind with having to choose a school (Amongst many other factors).

Don't Egnatia do the full fATPL course on Diamond AC? (Not that I'm looking to use them anymore).

[Vone Rotate]

I stand corrected about the MEP rating in the twinstar if it is wrong.

I attended a seminar with stapleford this year and people were asking the questions about if you do an IR in a twin star can you only fly glass cockpit etc. The head of the school explained this is rubbish and a rumor which is going round about the twinstars, an IR is an IR.
He then went on to say the caa don't allow mep ratings to be done in the twinstar as the a/c does too much of the work for you so the mep is done in a senica then if you want you can change to the twinstar or stay on the senica for the IR....

I'm guessing from the response this information is incorrect??:bored:

[moggiee]

We do our twin ratings in our DA42 - so you can do them!

As for the DA42 doing "too much of the work for you" I'd love to know what this means. It has no yaw damper, no autotrim, no auto feather so where is the difference apart from the engine shutdown being done by two levers (power lever and engine master) compared to three (throttle, prop and mixture)?

Vone-rotate: The following is NOT aimed at you, but at the numpties who "advise" and give the sort of advice you've been given:

I do wish people would deal in facts - it's just the Luddites who have yet to catch up with the modern world trying to halt progress.

"Ailerons - no good for aeroplanes, I'll stick to wing warping, thank you".
"The monoplane will never replace the biplane".
"Tricycle undercarriage will never catch on".
"Why on earth would the pilots need an enclosed canopy?"
"Jet engines, no chance".
"You won't catch ME ever using an autopilot".
"No airline will ever trust EFIS".
"Fly by wire? Boeing will never go for it!".
"The JAA won't allow the use of diesel engines".
"A380 will never fly".
Etc. etc. etc.

[moggiee]

Pilotmike - the DA42 has no auto feather. The prop feathers when YOU the pilot shut the engine master switch off (the equivalent of combined prop/mixture lever). If you do not operate this lever then the prop will not feather - it therefore does NOT have auto feather.

I said the only real difference is that the DA42 has two levers per engine, compared to the Seneca's three. That ONE lever is the only significant difference, as the ECU takes care of the prop control and feathering - but it only does so when the pilot operates the engine master.

I believe the CAA will not grant a MEP class rating if tested on the DA42, for a variety of reasons, including the simplicity of the engine / prop management, and the lack of a turn instrument (it has a standby horizon instead), meaning that recovery from unusual attitudes on partial / limited panel is not possible. Unless of course you know different 'facts'.
Wrong again, old chap. We do the MEP test on the DA42, the only requirement being for the partial/limited panel UP recovery to be done in a "conventional" aeroplane or FNPT2 (we use the FNPT2). You can rest assured that as an approved FTO the CAA would have put us right if we were doing it wrong!

[sick_bag]

The ratings you get on the DA42 are exactly the same, as you would expect if you look at the facts and don’t believe the uninformed rubbish people write on here! you need differences training when you want to fly ANY new type twin - its not something which is specific to the DA42..

what staggers me is that anyone these days would want to do their initial IR on anything else! Its not that it is miles easier (the engine handling is a bit more straightforward) - but its just a much better experience than climbing in a clapped out old spam can!!

[BillieBob]

I believe the CAA will not grant a MEP class rating if tested on the DA42....and I believe in Father Christmas! Of course the CAA will issue an MEP Class Rating following an LST on the DA42 and it looks just the same as the one issued following an LST on the Aztec, Seneca, Duchess, etc, etc.

Mogiee, you're getting confused between the MEP and the IR - there is no requirement for limited panel UP recoveries (or any other IF manoeuvre) in the MEP.

[moggiee]

Billiebob - you're quite right that Limited/Partial UP recoveries are not part of the MEP skills tests. Clarification gladly accepted!

What I was meaning to say was that if there was any such requirement for any test, it could be signed off in the FNPT2.

"I believe" and "I've been told" appear all too often when people without the facts discuss the DA42. Rumour, myth and deliberate mis-information abound. The simple question is this: would an increasing number of FTOs use them if they weren't approved to do the job?

[moggiee]

pilotmike - engine shutdown differences are in fact a VERY small issue. The advantages of the DA42 actually lie in its ease of two engined operation.

[macflea]

hi everybody,

i was looking foward to doing my me/ir in a diamond twinstar, but before i can, i will have to do an me rating on a seneca .fair enough i thought its only a six hour course and was told it due to some difference with the levers and auto feathering , now i have found out that once this is done ie the mep skills test i will have to do further training on the seneca for limited and partial panel upset recoveries before progressing to the twinstar as its not part of skills test. i though thats the way it had to be.according to moggies previous post , the limited panel /partial panel upset recoveries can be done in a fnpt11 since it cant be done in a twinstar and a me rating is a me rating whatever the aircraft its done on. so what the hell am i doing the seneca rating for ?, when i can do it all on the twin star? .at the school thats the way its done, thats that.getting really cheesed off so forgive the tone of message.i could spend this 3 or 4 grand in better ways ie on a da 42 and not an ancient seneca.

macflea