Cathay (AOA) and Dragonair (DPA) pilots join forces

[A. Le Rhone]

No more B Scale!

1n 1993, CX imposed B Scale due to market forces (many pilots applying for few jobs). KA were bound to the same imposition.

Now is the time for that to be reversed. Forget incremental and piecemeal CoS increases; the AOA and DPA must approach their companies and demand the reversal of this outmoded and divisive policy. After all, if the current global shortage of aircrew cannot be interpreted as the opposite of the conditions that instigated B Scale then what can?

Secondly, the two pilot representative bodies need to face commercial realities and become more closely alligned, thus presenting at least a cohesive facade, if not initially a unified membership (which would be the ultimate goal). Perhaps a new Association might be in order, possibly attracting back members who defected some time back from the AOA. A new name would be needed - AODPA? CDPA? not CX-DOA!

In order to achieve the maximum return for thier stakeholders (pilot-members), both the AOA and DPA should place uniform and where possible identical claims to the airlines, the major items of which in any case need CX Board ratification.

The first item the unified Associations should be pressing for is the immediate removal of B Scale. Now is the time to move on this issue.

[BandH]

Nice speech mate. But you're dream'n................

[Dan Winterland]

The DPA is strong with over 80% membership. The AOA can barely muster 50%. Differences amonst the CX pilots will have to be settled and a greater membership base acheived until this could become reality.

[mairyhinge]

This has been suggested before. How about disbanding the AOA and disbanding the DPA and reforming under some IFALPA with 2 councils. A council for the AOA and a council for the DPA. Each represents their respective pilot bodies and together more powerful in the fight against the company. The AOA side does need to strengthen however as they are a weaker union at present. The DPA boys can not be intimidated as much as CX boys, I guess because CX is perceived as a better job and therefore more to lose. Just my opinion. Unlikely to happen....

Hinge

[DropKnee]

Typical pilots. The reason we can never achieve anything is... Too many of us always find reasons why we will fail. I have never seen so many defetist attitudes in one place. Every good idea is shot down. It makes my stomach turn. Sad we all are.

[DrunkenAir]

There is no doubt that in time HKALPA will represent all HKG employed pilots at negotiations via individual Pilot Councils. The current system of individual unions is expensive, divisive and as shown, less than effective in acheiving results for the various groups. It is just that we need people that can see the future to get elected, rather than those that sit in the past.

I will be lobbying the DPA to commence attempts to bring the groups together. If you beleive this is also the way forward then lobby your union reps to do likewise.

Perhaps a Poll could be set up here to gauge feelings on this matter!

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[BScaler]

Well you'd get my vote.

Recently Cathay purchased 8 shiny new A330s in a single order for its airline group comprising two airlines - CX and KA. According to the CX DFO, actual deployment of the aircraft between the two airlines partly depends upon crewing availability...!

Along the same lines, it stands to reason that the pilot employees of both airlines should be united by single union representation. To me it makes eminent sense.

Anything other than unity between the two pilot bodies will allow the policy of 'divide and conquer' to be implemented by management.

As far as the aim of ridding ourselves of B-Scales is concerned, I would heartily endorse such an aim. After 14 years of a policy of 'protect A-Scales at all costs and in time bring B-Scales up to A-Scales', (an AOA policy which has patently and obviously failed), it is time to try another tack.

I'd be quite willing to give up my handle as being obsolete...!

Drunkenair, I'll do my bit by lobbying my end for the AOA to get their heads together with the DPA. Hope others out there join me - it seems to be the obvious way forward.

[fdx]

I'm in.

Anyone else??

[OldChinaHand]

United we stand, divided we just get steam rolled into the ground....again.

[Jerry Scribbler]

It's a very easy to implement plan. No need to redesign the wing. IFALPA have assisted in setting up national pilot bodies in countries worldwide. This has been done before, and the same way easyJet used the Southwest model to set up its business, so Hong Kong pilot groups can use ALPA-SA as a model in achieving union goals.

[Lowkoon]

I think you might find the DPA has approached the AOA numerous times to discuss items such as integration, so an agreed approach can be presented to managment if and when that problem rears its ugly head. "No need to talk" is the response from the AOA.

You just have to look at what has happened to the "Qantas Group" to see what happens when one group is stupid enough to ignore another association within the "group". Its in managements interests to keep us seperate and not showing a united front.

Dont let arrogance and short sightedness keep the groups apart. Management will just play us off against each other. The losers will be all of us. So as soon as you guys in the AOA represent a majority of your pilots, lets talk! :)

[BScaler]

Lowkoon, I know that many in the DPA look across at the AOA with an air of contempt - derision even.

But I would put it to you that manipulation and maneuvring at the top levels of the AOA are more to blame for the pitiful present state of affairs than the membership itself.

For example:

the membership recently voted on a motion, only to have it 'repackaged' and put up for a vote a second time. A bombardment of emails, newsletters and forums, (accompanied by threats of what the Company would do if it didn't pass...), helped the vote squeeze through the way the AOA GC wanted it to on the second attempt.
even though the vast majority of the AOA GC refused to present the 'negotiated', (I use the term loosely...), CoS07 package to the membership for a vote because it was clearly unacceptable, the President of the AOA has taken no further action following the Company's announcement that they were going to impose elements of the agreement anyway!It could be said that the AOA membership have the leadership they deserve, and really, I have no answer for that, except to say that there are alot of people very unhappy with the conduct and direction of the present top echelons of the AOA GC.

It makes sense for the DPA and the AOA to get together earlier than later, before the 'divide and conquer' machinery at Swire, (the Company awarded the management contract for Cathay), gets into full swing.

I've been saying that for some time, and your recent success only affirms my view.

[BusyB]

"I think you might find the DPA has approached the AOA numerous times to discuss items such as integration, so an agreed approach can be presented to managment if and when that problem rears its ugly head. "No need to talk" is the response from the AOA. "

Not true.:bored:

[womble006]

DPA would love nothing better than to talk to the AOA, together we stand , devided we fall . Its all been said before and nothing has changed for the last 5000 years.

[BScaler]

With all due respect to BusyB, I have it on good authority that unofficial approaches have indeed been made by the DPA to the AOA, to no avail.

The real questions are:
"Why isn't the AOA approaching the DPA on it's own cognisance anyway?";
"Why does the AOA not appear interested in talking to the DPA?" and;
"If members of the AOA GC think that what I am writing here is inaccurate and misleading, then why is an approach to the DPA not being made as I write?"

The sensible long-term approach is one of unity.

[BusyB]

"The sensible long-term approach is one of unity."

No argument there. With the DPA/CX negotiations ongoing I was told there was no suitable time for talks (I think leave was also involved).

With GC members working an almost full roster as well as having leave and family commitments I do wonder how it is expected for all to be done instantly:confused:

[Lowkoon]

BusyB with all due respect, and probably not the place for it here, but we were told in no uncertain terms that the AOA already has its position on integration, and no need for any discussion. Dont set us up as the mechanism management use to further smash your terms and conditions by burrying your head in the sand now. TALK! At the next IFALPA, have a chat with the AIPA guys about the mistakes they made with JPC, cost QF guys about 25 787s and counting... Divide and Roger...

[Mr. Bloggs]

Don’t worry Lowkoon, most are still blaming B Scale for their demise in conditions. It’s that head in the sand thing and I’m alright jack attitude.:{

Again we will be behind the power curve yet again when the cr@p starts to happen. We sit back a wait while the company is planning their next 12 moves while they pretend to be in negotiations.:=:ok:

Can someone turn out the lights on the way out please.:zzz:

[mairyhinge]

My earlier suggestion was to form a united association with 2 councils (or more when the other airlines join), however I don't think 1 single association will work because the CX voters will out vote everyone else (due to greater numbers), not something the other airlines will find palatable.
One possible scenario could possibly be when and if the KA/CX crews merge. I know what the CX boys will vote for, and who could blame them....

[Lowkoon]

Mairy, I think you would find that an agreed and certified integration agreement will have us all singing from the same song sheet. Probably just found another reason why it will never happen... :ugh:

The old what comes first , the chicken or the egg principle... Do we join each other at an industrial level and negotiate together now? Or after the **** has hit the fan, and we are forced to talk to each other.

It is cx who has the most to lose by not being pro active here. The company could effectively ringfence the cx guys, and hire through every other 'group' avenue, and suddenly find that you arent even invited to negotiation anymore. Not in conceiveable, where does it say that all new aircraft purchased by the cathay group have to be flown by cx drivers?

Anyone else wondering why the management wont be pinned down on the breakdown of where the new 330s are going, and why there is a mad rush at KA to introduce all cx procedures over here? Inaction on cx pilots side will be very costly. You guys had better stop writting letters about us not wearing our hats, and start looking at the big picture.

[dragon501]

Hahahahaahaha........

Whats a 'hat'???

[Dan Winterland]

It's that round thing with a badge on the front which they give you when you join and it ends up it the kids dressing up box.



The point I made earlier about membership levels is very valid. The DPA is strong and perhaps the CX pilots think that's good and think maybe they would like some of that. However, the reason for the strength of the DPA is that the workforce are united. Get a bunch of CX pilots together and they couldn't agree on the colour of sh!te let alone come together and form a cohesive body. Just look at the infighting on this website for an example. It's not neccessarily the CX pilot's fault, they have been manipulated by a management which has had a very successful 'divide and conquer' policy.

If the CX A salers could get along with the B scalers who could get on with the ex ASL guys who could get on with the guys who joined during the ban who could get on with the guys who left the AOA after the 49ers incident who could get on with............. oh, never mind. You get the picture!

Combine the two and you would get a weaker body with yet another division - the disgruntled and sidelined KA guys who don't feel represented. Until the AOA can heal the divisions and get the membership levels up, there is no point in joining forces.

[flap relief]

I believe a combined force is the only way forward. We are one big happy family now and whilst it is impossible to imagine a totally harmonious and friction free relationship due self interest and self perceived/imposed hierarchy it would be a long term and big picture win for the pilot body to show a united front to the company. Why not rebadge and reform under a new banner. This has serious merit as it would allow disenfranchised AOA members a new start therby raising membership levels again as well as allow the integration of the workforce to be done with input from us rather than it being imposed upon us without consultation.

I would like to see the two Gen Coms begin official discussion as to the possibility of integrating and rebadging as well as all of us talking to our mates from the different camps. As has been pointed out here we are all just blokes trying to raise a family and/or have a reasonable lifestyle. There is very little to be gained by mistrust and self interest from either camp.

[IBTheseus]

The DPAC has had quite an negotiated offer from RH. It has yet to be voted on by the membership, therefore the job is not done.

Presuming the offer is accepted, there is still work required to negotiated the various bits that are still motherhood statements without the neccessary detail.

The DPA has approached the AOA in the past without great interest from the AOA. Right now I would wish for the DPAC to continue their great work consolidating their wins.

RH appears to understand some of the issues KA pilots face. The DPAC will continue to have their hands full resolving the outstanding issues. This is the first Com in my KA time to have real success.

The AOA can wait for a later time.

[FlexibleResponse]

I fully agree with BusyB.

I believe that the integration of the AOA and the DPA is long overdue.

One has to be prepared to take a stand for what one believes in, otherwise one is doomed to forever hide behind mommy's skirts.

[flap relief]

25 cents worth


I can see by your join date of Dec 2007 that you have extensive experience and insight into the complex world of aviation in the harbour. I can also tell by your well reasoned comments that you are an antaganonistic little see you Next Tuesday but as this is not a personal assault I will cease and desist.

My earlier comments about rebadging and aligning the unions (of which you are clearly a concientious objector so I don't see how this is of interest to you) was based on the fact that all of us who have been here a while acknowledge labor laws in HK do not allow much leeway when it comes to industrial action in whatever form it takes. My reasoning is that we all realise our unions are not as strong as they might perhaps be in our home countries but and this is the big BUTT (not unlike my wifes) it is all we have and if we can make it strong then it is a voice that will be listened to.

Regards to all during the festering season!

[iLuvPX]

Integrating the unions would only serve to better the AOA, not by gaining some great union members, but by being able to control their fate...

The stronger, cohesive DPA would be rolled into the larger, fractured AOA. Who do you think would gain control of this new union? You would still have the likes of ST and his feeble minions running the show, with a couple ineffective seats on the GC made available to the incoming KA pilots. All the strength and character the DPA had, would be inevitability lost in the AOA autocracy.

More importantly, when it comes time to integrate the seniority lists, which scenario do you think would better serve KA pilots?

1) Having a strong accomplished DPA negotiating for their pilots with the CX management?

2) Having a previously combined union where the old AOA has the power to dictate, as previously shown on the latest RP decision, where KA pilots would be folded into the list?

Interesting init?

[aumexican]

I think the Cx boys should talk to any aussie pilots who know the story with Qantas/Jetstar :}

Jetstar were bought by Qantas and because the idiots who wore hats didn't talk to the guys who didn't wear hats, Jetstar commands/new aircraft have come thick and fast with lower seniority QF pilots getting shafted:eek:

KA pilots will still be cheaper than CX pilots after the payrise and anybody who thinks anybody other than the bean counters run aviation companies have no idea of management in the 21st century

Junior pilots don't think the senior pilots will look after you. Combined seniority will work even as a Y list.

First rule of industrial negotiation divide and conquer:E