CATII and CATIII aircrafts??

[crjlover]

Hi all,
yesterday at work I was surfing on the CFMU system, looking at some flight plans, of the so call biz aviation. I discovered that all the flights that I have watched operate just at CAT 1 minima. My question is: are there any biz jet capable of CAT 2 o 3??
Thanks

[His dudeness]

Challenger 300 is CAT II capable, Citation Sovereign can get an upgrade via SB to CAT II. There are for sure others that can do II if not III - at least the BBJ´s and ACJ´s methinks

[monkey_wrench]

Gulfstream G-IV, Hawker 125-800 CAT II. BBJ / Boeing 737NG CAT IIIA (though new BBJ's out of the factory with new Autopilot config are CAT IIIB) A-320 family CAT IIIB. Aircraft being capable is one thing, getting the approval to do it in the Corporate (non AOC) environment is the challenge...

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

I'd have thought any type offering an EVS type system has to be at least CAT II capable or it wouldn't be worth it.

Plus there's CAT III airliners used as the basis for business jets too.

[411A]

The first business airplane to be CATIII qualified was not a jet...it was a Gulfstream One that belonged to the radio/television personality Arthur Godfrey.
It was equipped with dual Collins para visual displays (PVD) that was very similar in operation to the one fitted in HS.121 Tridents, and allowed CATIIIA hand-flown ops.
Godfrey used to talk about it extensively on his radio program in the early 1960's.
Other airplanes were regularly CATII equipped.
For example, I used to fly, many years ago a Fairchild FH-227B that was so equipped, and it worked to perfection.
Dual FD109 flight directors and dual radio altimeters...expensive, but when the weather turned sour, very useful.

[crjlover]

Thanks,
so the biggest issue is to get the the approval without an AOC.

[AS CAR O 50-207-306]

I don't know the Falcon 20 but all the Falcons are CAT II and more like the Easy cockpit.

[bman0429]

Its not just a matter of the aircraft being CAT II or III, but also the crew training has to be maintained. Somebody remind me of the period, but I know its quite frequent and usually more often than most want to bother with since the need is quite rare.

[737drvr]

at least 3 low vis approaches within the last six months, one of which has to be in the aircraft.

[monkey_wrench]

You are also required to receive approval from the state of the country that the airport is located in and are intending to perform your low vis approach to and carry a copy of the approval letter onboard. In addition, someone (normally the maintenance organisation) has to manage the percentage reliability of successful landings - a 95% minimum is required otherwise the aircraft will be downgraded.

[CL300]

Falcons with HUD are CAT3B hand flown...
Otherwise CAT2 A/P

yipeeee !


Some germans and italians biz operators are cat 3 or 2....not a lot..

[LearjetGA]

XLS, CL850, Legacy 600 (even CAT III with HUD), Citation X, Falcon 2th can be CATII. Crew training (go to the sim every six months) and maintenance is the major issue.
G550 crews train EVS (HUD on Captain's side) while on recurrent.

[boofta]

Airbus ACJ is cat3B. Also capable of steep approach, over 5 degree ILS
such as Londons City Airport approach.

[Aslak]

Also 604's are Cat II.
Unfortunately, even with a HUD, u can not go to CATIIIa, since it is not flight tested.

[capricorn]

Lear 60 can fly cat 2 also.

[plugster]

As far as I know it depends on the operators choice. You may find even 747-400 not being CAT II capable ( i.e. Air India till 1999, FRA incident) and there are some southern europe / north african based companys still doing fine with CAT I. It's cheaper for them not to fly or to divert in conditions less than CAT I than to buy and maintain the equipment and keep the crews current on CAT II or even CAT III all the time.

[Doodlebug]

We run our GLEX CATII in and out of the Ukraine. Need it, too, this time of the year. Biannuall training, yes. Maintainance of currency means we'll simulate CATII whenever we have the opportunity.

[falconbis]

All new types and most of all jetairplane less than 10 year old are capable of CAT II and large cabin CAT III, only the crew training is a problem. You need to go to sim every 6 months to train on those app and been check, so all operators going to sim once a year are not capable to achieve that requirement. that s all !

[plugster]

http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_009/nn_41544/DE/Publikationen/Untersuchungsberichte/1999/Bericht__EX002-0.99,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf/Bericht_EX002-0.pdf

You may check this link to see what happens when flying CAT III conditions with CAT I equipped a/c and CAT I trained crew- unfortunately it's available only in german.

[crjlover]

Hi all,
thanks for your information, very interesting.
I have last question: which are legal bases for the use of the EVS in europe and in the US??

regards

[falconbis]

There is no legal right to use it in US and in Europe because there is no EVS Aproach published yet, so you are restricted to the minima of the published app you are shooting even if with the EVS you can see the ground, its not a licence to burst the minima.

[crjlover]

@ falconbis,
thanks that is what I was thinking.

[Lindberg]

The big advantage of CAT II or III against CAT I is not the actual ability to execute it. Much more important is the preflight planning advantage. If you read a forecast of Moscow in winter, you will find almost half a year conditions below CAT I. So you need 2 alternates for planning. As the alternates with better wx are at least on hour flight time away, many planes don't have the range. Especially the need of a category higher for the alternate. So if you are able CAT II your alternate is good with CAT I.... At least this helps to plan legally. If you check the planning of the planes in UUWW for legality, the ramp would not be crowded anymore :O

[bman0429]

Lindberg,

You bring up a very good, in fact excellent point!

On the other hand Private aircraft are able to execute an approach with weather below mins. Frequently what is reported in UUWW is not what the real conditions are. I have found that the forecasts are frequently erroneous.

Again an excellent point you make, though.

[Lindberg]

Thanks bman0429
You met exactly the point. In some areas the weather reports are quite erroneous, not to say there are just two forecasts available: one for summer and one for winter. As long as the weather is better than the forecast , everybody can land without troubles. But I experienced also the opposite... So if you arrive from Europe in a Citation... you barely have the range to continue to St. Petersburg or Helsinki. So you have no choice and shoot the approach. Doesn't matter if you are private or on an AOC.... Even filing private because of weather, doesn't change the situation, just the legal point of view. I am qualified to fly CAT II, and I am not keen to do it. But sometimes you have to, and than you are happy to be trained and certified.
Don't plan in the sh.... - you get in there sometimes anyway! :=

[falconbis]

Where have you read that as privat you can go below minima ???:eek: or may be you mean that you are not subject to do the Approach Ban... If you are in Moscow Wx minima before or after the OM will not help you for the alternate anyway !
The planning case is a valid one as only 3% of the flight need to be shot on CAT II, but also on long Range after 7 or 8 hours flight if the wx is slighly below minima in Teterboro for example you will have to divert to White plain Atlantic city or back to Boston...quite far from final destination for the pax.. if you are CATII you just have to filled a second alternate Newark and you will land CatII there . much better for everybody !

[falconbis]

bman,
read my edit above

[bman0429]

Falconbis,

I see your point, but your scenario does not apply to private aircraft. For for hire operators CAT II & III ops may be econ. feasible, but for private aircraft operators it would seem to be diffiuclt to justify the extra/cost effort for something that may not be frequently limiting.

Save for people who operate in and out of some special problem enviros I don't see a great advantage to maintaining crew/aircraft certification for Cat II or III.

I agree with you both on the planning scenario.

Personally if you don't have autoland/autobrakes you got no business doing a CAT III. I did one in a the 400 into PVG and it was just plain creepy!! :eek:

[falconbis]

yea probably... but what do you do with your privat airplane if you don t have CAT I minima ?

[bman0429]

See there you go being negative again.

I just tell the crew to think happy thoughts and maybe that bad ole weather will just up and go away:ok:!!

Seriously if you cannot loiter and wait you go elsewhere to the alternate.

Falconbis, You must be a fellow member of the order of Sleepless Knights!!

[falconbis]

No no ! not negative just happy that my familly is not with you in the back while you are loiting and having those optimistic thought :)

[bman0429]

Hey guys,

I try to keep things light hearted. Seriously though how many CAT II approaches have you been required to do. I've been, but am not currently CAT III qual'd and in the four years it was maintained it was used only once.

As has been stated prior the requirements are very high to maintain.

Also for the example of going to TEB there are about a dozen airports a stones throw away from TEB. There are plenty of other places to choose from that may have better weather.

I can tell you that the vast majority of operators do not train to CAT II/III standards. Larger companys might, but not even all of them do.

Falconbis, what did aircraft do before CAT II/III standards were approved?

[falconbis]

They flew Cat I Approach or divert ! As you know if the wx is bad in TEB it will be bad at a stone throw away too ... that s why most of professionnal operators doing Long Range take the fuel for an alternate at least 200NM around the final destination if the Wx at ETA is marginal at the time of Departure ! but its still possible to operate that kind of flight like the local flying club too...

you are right most of bizjets operators are not CAT II / CAT III, because you have to be trained and checked twice a year when some operators don t even go to the sim once a year.