AOA Reshuffle

[V1,Vr,V2]

The AOA is obviously not progressing in the right direction and has not produced the results that its members and non members would expect. If this were a business there would be restructuring of the people in the organization and possibly new blood brought in (some one who has no emotional ties to the company with a professional back ground in negotiations).
The way of thinking too should change to welcome new joiners and non members and previous members.
It IS about money ( it always is , don't kid your self) and i think the joining fee should be a direct relation to the TOTAL amount you take home ( more local pilots would join and based crew). Why not have the first year free for every new joiner, if they like it after a year become full members. For previous members I think they should be able to rejoin again no questions asked and no back payments, I know this one will really stir it but we need to look forward, we are always looking in the past.

Your Thoughts?

[BusyB]

I don't think you are fully aware of the joining/rejoining package that exists at present. Please ring the office to get updated. Proposals to simplify the present system are also onder discussion.:ok:

[Loopdeloop]

Details on the HKAOA website under the "join" tab.
Of particular note for you are the fact that no back payments are req'd for previous members and the discount scheme already in place for new joiners:

6.5. Any officer who applies for initial HKAOA membership within one year of becoming eligible for
membership will pay an introductory reduced subscription rate of one half of the Full Member
subscription rate for the first 12 months of membership.

6.6. Second Officers and Freighter First Officers applying for membership under the terms of the
preceding paragraph will enjoy the reduced subscription rate of one half of the Full Members’
rate for the duration of their time in that rank.

Any more excuses for not joining?

I've read all the stuff about what the AOA may or may not have done for us over the years but the fact remains that they are the only people trying to improve our pay and conditions, or maybe resist the erosion of them would be more accurate.

[Cider30]

Loopdeloop,

I respect your position about joining the AOA and I totally agree with previous posts that the AOA is the only way to negotiate with the company.

I would like to see a discussion about some of the issues that clearly exists.

I my opinion the company has set out on a path of divide and conquor, and you don't have to look any further than the way some members argue in this forum to see they are somewhat successful.

Lots of HKG based crew couldn't give a damn about half vs full credit for PX/PT sectors. Lots of NAM crew couldn't give a damn about 3 man ops to Europe. My point is we are very diversified and in my opinion in need of seperate unions. I know this is very controversial and before jumping to the keyboard please read on.

I think seperate unions for each basing area and HKG would get rid of the excuse many people use for not joining and lets face it, every basing area and seat position is not represented (at least not very well) in the AOA.

Seperate unions could still negotiate with the company as one unified group with a set of demands, proposals etc.

While it is each individuals right to join or not to join, the reasoning behind not joining has become one of what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

- The AOA is not doing anything for us, so I won't join.
- The percentage of members is not high enough to ensure leverage in case of industrial action, so therefore join.

I could go on and on about this. Point is, we won't get anywhere until we eliminate the excuses for not joining, that's the first step.

I think the company loves the situation the AOA is in right now. The company maintains it will negotiate with the AOA, but if membership rose to 100% I think it would worry the company more and prevent them from unilateraly imposing new COS.

On the other hand, what if (hypothetically) the AOA said to the company: OK, you impose this without an agreement, we are becoming obsolete, we will shut our organization down and you can rule as you please (in some opinions they already do). I think that would scare the company even more. How would you attract any new joiner if we didn't even have a union.

Right now, we are in between, right where the company would like us to be. Until we change that, we will get nowhere else than arguing in this forum.

While we are at it, let me make a general comment about joining/not joining and consequences. If I think the AOA is not helping my personal agenda, I have the option and right not to join.

I believe two things can improve my COS. Market forces and the AOA, since I cannot actively impact the former I only have the option of joining the latter. But threatening non-joiners not to give them jumpseats as mentioned in other threads or to impose similar consequences for not joining is about as childish as the company would like to see us.

Get a grip. Threatening guys to join the union. Is that seriously the way to go.

Now lets grow up, have a discussion about why each and every non-member out there didn't join, lets fix those problems and then move forward as a stronger and more united group.

Cider30

[iLuvPX]

Good thoughts Cider, and I think the multi-union route is going to be a reality whether the AOA, or even CX wants it.

When the bases go "on-shore", local labor laws will then come into effect. In the US for example, representation by a union is a right afforded to employees by law.

A proactive move by the AOA may help bring these different factions together, but they are powerless to stop it.

[Bwatchful]

We don't need more unions. One "union" is enough. We should do what other unions do that have members with different needs, we form "locals".

[DrunkenAir]

Although I am a DPA member and not an AOA member, I feel obliged to comment. Cider, your post is quite close to the mark in may respects. But there is no need for separate and costly unions. You could always give some represenation to the CPA if you feel that is the way to go. But I imagine that is not a palatable option, and that will always be the problem with separate groups.

What you need are subgroups or steering commitees representing each of your operations. The DPA has this in the form of members from the MAN based fleet on our exec and they do an excellent job of representing the members of that group.

The reality though is that the AOA is a dinosaur. It has passed its use by date, and unless it changes with the times it will continue to slowly wither and eventually die. Other upcoming groups that wish to represent the members will be denied that option because CX will only want to deal with the AOA, whom it can control sometimes and ignore the rest. (new COS case in point)

I will make no bones about this, the DPA has looked at joining forces with the AOA now that we are all owned by CX and the Swire group. Our reasoning is that at some point in the future we will see the 400 odd KA guys come across into a merged seniority list. This will either be done in a mutually acceptable manner an imposed manner, similar to your newly imposed COS. I will not comment further on this as I know it is controversial enough in its own right.

I beleive a more wholistic approach to union representation needs to be looked at. All pilots in HKG, and those based overseas working for HKG companies should be represented by the same union, albeit different and specific negotiating teams within the union. We already have the structure in place in the form of HKALPA.

HKALPA should be the vehicle that brings us all together as one voice in HKG. We set up different Pilot Councils within the group that represent the different operations and it will be those councils that directly negotiate terms and conditions with the respective employers.

We shall receive value for money as we will reduce the need for duplication of services and staff. We will have access to greater industrial muscle, not that we should use it. We shall all have greater access to world trends and information. And numerous other benefits.

And the good part? All our Pilot Unions are already paying a portion of their income to ALPA for being involved. So by simply forming the one union we should be able to reduce fees and attract more members. Non-Members will also be enticed to join as they shall be joing a world recognised association with a global voice.

CX/KA/HKA/HKE/GFS (plus any other HKG emplyed) pilots will all be eligible to join. The employers will have no option but to deal with HKALPA if the original unions are disbanded or merged.

In my opinion, that is the way foward.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[pill]

Try this on. Disband the AOA. Sell the office in TST and divide the cash evenly between the membership. Encourage market forces by having every cx pilot put 1000 hkd's in the mail box of every pilot who leaves before the age of 54, (to help with the decision making process). Before you know it, Phil and Nic can't crew the jets. Cheque book comes out, new package for all. Guys in individual based areas can get organised as required. HK based guys leave when the bucket of poo out weighs the bucket of gold. Easy.

[Buttie Box]

Can somebody answer these 2 questions for me once and for all:

1. Are trades unions allowed in Hong Kong?

2. Is strike action allowed in Hong Kong?

Thank you.

BB

[CMOTDibler]

well apparently strike action is allowed in Hong Kong as the Ground Crew and Cabin crew are deciding on joint strike action over christmas at the moment and of course the metal benders went on strike earlier in the year. So if everyone else can, surely we can too.

[BusyB]

Buttie Box,

1. Yes

2.Yes
Its not illegal to strike but the employer has the right to dismiss you.:bored:

[Cavallier]

To be honest V speeds and as a mate I think you need to join the (a) union because I think you are a bit wide of t' mark.


The Cav:cool:

[cpdude]

DrunkenAir, I tend to agree with you but I'm afraid we can't get there from here!:sad:

[DrunkenAir]

Hey cpdude,

To get anywhere you need to take steps. 1 at a time. Eventually you will reach your destination.

The 1st step needs to be a joint meeting by all flight crew representative bodies to explore the option of making the HKALPA the Official Representative Body for us all.

The next step will be dictated by what happens there.

Progress may be Glacial in speed, but unless we want to end up like Wooly Mammoths, we need to start now. If not the upcoming Ice Age will make us all obsolete.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[badairsucker]

Please remind me again, what exactly are the advantages of joining the AOA!!

Sticky one that mate.

A few people on here might start throwing a strop. :O

[cpdude]

Please remind me again, what exactly are the advantages of joining the AOA!!

An insurance policy that will never pay out!

A common voice which is never heard!

Discounts at stores you never shop at!

Legal support should you ever need it after crashing in a third-world country. Did someone say lottery ticket?:}

[cxhk]

Just shut down that AOA, rename DPA to something else that could represent the whole CX group. AOA has got completely out of touch with reality and their lack of pro-active actions makes me sick. Just shut down the house and start over!

[BusyB]

I can assure you that the Loss of Income Insurance pays out:ok:

[BandH]

For some not all!!!!!!

If they can squirm out of it they will.

[BusyB]

That applies to any Insurance company and most Airlines:bored:

[GANKER]

Yeah it pays out maybe for 5 YEARS!
which is probably half the amount you have payed in subs over the years to pay for the ridiculous cover in the first place. then where do you go with your one eye? into management?
Cpdude has hit the nail on the head, the AOA is dead!
the fact is they havent got the funds to mount any legal fight against the company and are to scared to raise subs because everyone will leave, so what good are they really? its all hot air.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Ganker it is the chicken and the egg theory and it has been done to death on these forums but alas i feel i should comment.
People quiting or not joining the AoA because of fees are the real problem here. If the union had 90%+ membership we wouldnt have these problems, we would have a strong union who had the support of the pilot body to make "Ballsy" decisions!!!
How fricken simple is it???
It sounds like the guy who is whinging about his roster change after answering a call from crew control on a G day!!!!
So the only real way to criticise this union is to push for 90%+ membership and then see how they perform!

[iLuvPX]

Fenwicksgirl, how out of touch with reality are you??

The AOA had well over 90% membership during the 49er incident and was never stronger. How much support did the AOA offer then? Where was that dream team legal protection so many AOA muppets talk about? All the membership did was upgrade into those 49 position, then put a ban on in hopes outsiders could solve their own problem.

New slogan:

AOA NO WAY

[GANKER]

Fenwick I have been a member of the AOA since I joined and have stuck through thick and thin. I am just stating the facts. As was rightly pointed out the membership was strong when they sacked the 49ers ,and as most pilots do we ran for the hills, bar a few and looked after number one!
Things like when the rostering got voted down, LETS HAVE ANOTHER VOTE ITS NOT THE MAJORITY! start happening you must start looking at the overall committee and their priorities? They set democracy back to the stone age after that and have done nothing since to change my mind. Take the latest pay issues! WTF are they doing about that? Nothing! Head back in the sand and hope it blows over.
I keep justifying why i remain a member and it is as you stated maybe if it was more a majority it might make a difference. That is getting harder to justify and the option of another 1 and a hlf % pay rise to myself is looking better.

[BandH]

Trust me, talking from experience, don't count on them to be there when things get tough.

[routetuner]

Anyone who left the AOA did so for a reason, that situation may have changed and a door should be left open for them to join with " no provisos", no back payments etc . Maybe some will rejoin.

[Triangle Man]

How about a new structure for the GC, where each demographic within CX (and KA if amalgamated) is represented by someone within that group?

Such a GC would ideally consist of (for example) a mixture of CNs, FOs, and SOs of various scale and basings that can be the conduits for issues presented within their particular demographic. Or if this is deemed to create a GC that is too large, then at least have these members as POCs that report to the GC on such issues.

Benefits of this system would be that every member would know who their POC was and would feel more confident to express their opinion or raise their issue, not to mention the increased experience and succession planning within the AOA.

Food for thought...?:hmm:
TM