Child safety seats vs on lap

[Iron City]

Topic in Rumors and News was Ryan Air charges for infants on laps. Topic was closed by moderator. There was speculation about some issues with parents holding childern on laps. US FAA Civil Aeromedical Institute has a web site (www.cami.jccbi.gov/National-Resources/CAMI21st.html) with a variety of videos that are appropriate that show the sled tests of a number of different restraint devices including the belly belt. They are all done at 19G from 44fps. 20# on a 19G deceleration is 380# of force and I don't know of a parent that could hold onto the child in that situation. The videos of standard child safety seats strapped in airline seats is a real eye opener and recommended "Must See"(?). No thumbs up on this.

Now what should be done?

[Xenia]

Iron City,. .There was a valid reason why the topic was closed in the main forum http://www.smilies.nl/nono.gif. .Yes, we can indeed discuss our ideas here. I have never seen the videos you mentioned. Certainly agree the infant in the event of a crash-landing/ditching will probably fly out of the kangooro belt as fast as a bullet....but in the other hand I have also seen videos of pax flying out of their seat, seat collapsing, etc..... .However, I also believe that if those belts are still around, it means they are approved.. .Again, some people buy a seat to accomodate their baby on an approved car-seat, some others are happy to keep them in their lap (it is not an issue with Ryan Air only, it is a procedure for all airlines, as far as I am aware for infants there is a "little" fare to pay, which goes to cover costs as insurance, etc...) . .Anyway, you wanted to start a topic on infant seatbelts against infants car seat?. .Ok, let's the topic start....http://www.smilies.nl/yellows/a_smil17.gif

[Iron City]

The original topic on the other part of PPRUNE was a valid discussion (not my call to make anyway). I chimed in because I had seeen these video clips and wondered how many other people had and whether the question would still be 10 quid to ride on parents'lap after people saw them.

A number of years ago US FAA had regulation that would not allow child safety seats unless they were TSO approved (or something similar). They later changed it to say that if the seat was approved by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) then they were okay in airplanes. After seeing what happened in some aircraft actual crashes and turbulance incidents I believe the CAMI did some research from which the video clips come. If you go back up the CAMI web page it also seems to indicate that "regular" (i.e. NHTSA approved) childsafety seats are no longer allowed in use on aircraft and neither are belly belts.

That all said, I have always used child safety seats when taking small childern on airliners and in GA aircraft. The "on the lap" method always seemed to me to be unsafe. After learning how to install the seats properly (from a Delta cabin crew member) I always felt pretty good about it. After seeing CAMI's videos I have never taken a small child that would use a safety seat on an aircraft, the downside consequences are just too much.

What have the professionals learned?

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Iron City ]</p>

[Sick Squid]

Here we go again.. the topic was not "Closed by a moderator." It was initially posted in the incorrect forum (Rumours and News) and transferred to a more suitable forum. There is a link at the top of such threads pointing you towards the destination. There is a concerted effort to keep Rumours and News for just those 2 subject criteria... the topic you refer to is a debate on a policy pursued by a particular airline, which they have been doing for quite some time, now.

Moderators do not censor or otherwise stifle debate unless there are strong legal-based concerns, but we do try to keep topics in the appropriate forums. Hence the red-print plea at the top of R and N...

And now, because I'm in a good mood, here's a link to the thread, which is still open, uncensored, alive and well.

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=79&t=000138" target="_blank">Ryanair Infant Charge Thread</a>

£6

Rapidly becoming "Bad Cop" to Xenia's "Good Cop!" <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[CD]

The FAAs Civil Aerospace Medical Institute conducted tests of a number of different types of Child Restraint Systems. The final report is published and is available on the web. There is also a great video clip associated that everyone should watch...

REPORT ABSTACT:

The performance of child restraint devices (CRDS) in commercial transport airplane passenger seats was evaluated by a dynamic impact test program. Background information on the policies and regulations related to child restraints is summarized. Tests were conducted at the FAA Civil Aerospace Medical Institute. Six types (CRDS) certified for use in airplanes were tested. Booster seats, forward facing carriers, aft facing carriers, a harness device, a belly belt, and passenger seat lap belts were evaluated. Impact tests were conducted with CRDs installed on airplane passenger seats. The test severity was 16 Gpk with an impact velocity of 44 ft/sec. Effects of multiple row seats, aft row occupant impact loads, and seat back breakover were part of the project protocol. Four child size anthropomorphic test dummies were utilized. The 6-month and 36-month size ATDs defined in 49 CFR Part 572, the 6-month size CRABI ATD, and a 24-month size experimental ATD identified as CAMIX were used in these tests. An experimental device to measure abdominal pressure was evaluated in the CRABI and CAMIX ATDS. Analyses of the data acquired from the tests and observations related to the performance of the CRDs in airplane seats are presented.

<a href="http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-600/630/9419.html#partIV" target="_blank">The Performance of Child Restraint Devices in Transport Airplane Passenger Seats</a>

<a href="http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-600/630/vc07.avi" target="_blank">Child Restraints and Airplane Passenger Seats - VIDEO</a>

<a href="http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/commerce/advisory/english/ac0177_e.htm" target="_blank">Transport Canada - Advisory Circular - Child Restraint Systems</a>

http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-600/630/9419F00.JPG

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: CD ]</p>