Mid Air at Latrobe Valley. 1 Dead

[Mick.B]

From ABC


Police say the pilot of an ultralight plane is dead after his aircraft collided with a light plane in mid-air at Traralgon, in Victoria's east.
Early reports indicate the ultralight overshot the runway, crashed to the ground and burst into flames, while the light plane landed safely.

[Lasiorhinus]

RIP.

My sincere condolences to the family of the pilot. I hope its not who I think it is.

And the pilot of the other aircraft - I hope you are all right, too.

[Howard Hughes]

Condolences to all concerned.

[VH-XXX]

Was there on-site today for the aftermath. A very unhappy end to a nice half hour of circuits on an otherwise great day.

[Mick.B]

What type of aircraft were involved XXX.

[DH 200']

My understanding is that the occupant of the Cessna 172 was a solo student pilot which somehow collided with the top of the ultralight on final.

Condolences to the family and friends.

[Sunfish]

Is Latrobe a CTAF (R) ? Condolences to the family. Suggest student is in need of help as well.

[VH-XXX]

Aircraft was an Avid 912 ultralight. Cessa 172 EUI from Latrobe Valley Aero Club. Haven't checked map lately but as far as I know it isn't. Both aircraft were talking on radio anyway.

[Ultralights]

i came to within 50 ft of the same fate at Hoxton park just 2 weeks ago! though this time it was a Archer from YSBK, he was on the right frequency, i heard his calls, he didnt hear mine..turned final right in front of me...over the M7.
How can the number of such incidences be reduced before another fellow pilot or more lose their lives? if these events are happening in CTAFr with radio on the correct frequency, making all the right calls, is it a case of simply not looking out the window and visually confirming traffic location as is called on the radio? will the introduction of Unicom at busy CTAFr help? or even just the addition of AFRU? or is it the result of the apparent lack of skills being taught these days?
or it could be a tragic co-incidence.
My sincerest condolences to all involved.. a sad day.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"Both aircraft were talking on radio anyway"

"i heard his calls, he didnt hear mine..turned final right in front of me..."

.... then how do both aircraft arrive in the same place at the same time?

Even if only one is aware of other, why would that aircraft not stay well away from a possible area of conflict until it had a visual ID on the other?

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

Both aircraft were talking on radio anyway.
And possibly not looking. Very busy circuit and CTAF at YCDR/YCAB/YRED today and a newbie in for a ride, i the end I just turned the volume down as it was more distraction than usefull. Looking out proved far more effective.

I do not think you will ever achieve 100% safety unless nobody flies at all.

J

[Ultralights]

then how do both aircraft arrive in the same place at the same time?
Even if only one is aware of other, why would that aircraft not stay well away from a possible area of conflict until it had a visual ID on the other?
Dr
Thats exactly what i would like to know. up until the point of near collision, all radio calls appeared normal.
the matter has been resolved with ATSB and the other pilot involved, apon talking to the other pilot, (instructor in this case) he said he didnt see me, and believed my calls were from the aircraft vacating the runway (the aircraft i was following, i was flying a Jabiru, the aircraft infront was a Skipper) , so he made a short base and final. it wasnt untill i made a few remarks on the radio that he saw the error by then i had already pushed full power and was climbing away for another circuit. he was a little worried of some physical repercussions, so he taxied back to 34 and departed immediately.
in my case it was a simple miss communication, and error in judgment, i just hope the same wasn't the case today resulting in a fatality.

[The Bunglerat]

Jabawocky, whilst I know and understand what it's like to operate in a congested zone where the radio chatter can become chaotic, I would be alarmed to think I might be making radio broadcasts to pilots who willfully turn down the volume and don't hear them. Whilst carriage of VHF radio may not be mandatory at a CTAF, the regs still state that - if carried - you are expected to use it. At least that was the case last time I had a look in the books.

As frustrating as the chatter can sometimes be, it's up to pilots to learn the art of filtering through it all to make sense of what is being said.

Not passing judgement (as I wasn't there), but would not want to encourage the idea that it's ok to switch off when you get sick of listening to the frequency.

[pall]

I had an incident at YBRS a month ago. I called entering crosswind and turning downwind. Another pilot called entering down wind after my call. I assume he s behind me in the circuit. I call turning base, he calls turning base after my call. As I turn on to final he has turned inside me cutting short his downwind leg, turns onto final in front of me. I have to go around to miss him.

We both made calls but he flew a tighter circuit than I did creating a conflict.

[Flying Binghi]

Radio calls in the circuit are yesterdays news - by the time you have finnished your call things have changed.

I agree with Jabawocky on this one - get your eyes out side.

[Jabawocky]

Bunglerat at no time did I mention turning it off, nor did I, rather with a newbie on board and it probably confusing the heck out of him, I turned it down (and still listend, can tell between the calls who is where) but focussed more attention outside the windows than in the headset. Please do not be alarmed. Hope that clears that up for you.

Alerted SEE and avoid is the phrase with emphasis on SEE. Reason being often you get someone making calls that are not as precise as you like around my part of the world.
J:ok:

[Mustangbaz]

The whole Redcliffe/Caloundra/Caboulture ctaf is going to end in tragedy someday I'm afraid, the amount of radio calls on a weekend is unbelievable, but what can be done? It also doesn't help when someone cracks it because they got cut off the circuit and they argue over the radio for 5 minutes, very bad airman ship..............:ugh:

At what point will CASA make GA Tcas compulsory??

[Ultralights]

i dont think GA TCAS is the solution, the costs alone would be the final nail in the GA coffin if that was to happen..

[Flying Binghi]

I think some posters are being a bit melodramatic about the supposed problems of air traffic volume in Australia.

Think we got it tuff here in Australia - I understand more aircraft fly into one airshow in the U.S. then we have aircraft.

Oshkosh is mainly see and avoid.

[bushy]

LOOK and LISTEN is what is needed. Too many pilots have verbal diahoeria. Some fly as they drive-agressively. Work out where your blind spots are.

[kiwiblue]

As I turn on to final he has turned inside me cutting short his downwind leg, turns onto final in front of me. I have to go around to miss him.

There's no excuse for that sort of behaviour... the very worst kind of airmanship. From your post I assume he must have had you in sight, but still chose to cut inside, creating a very dangerous situation for both of you, requiring you to go missed. I hope you chatted this individual. IMO this sort of behaviour would be reason enough alone to ground the individual for a lengthy period to allow him the opportunity to contemplate the error of his ways.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"Oshkosh is mainly see and avoid"

... and sometimes they fail to!

I don't think we want to copy anything that goes on at Oshkosh. The whole time I was there I was expecting an accident ..... thought it was only a matter of time ..... and I was right!

One hell of an in-your-face experience, but in the end I was pleased to see all of those parked aeroplanes in my rearview mirror as I drove away from the place.

Dr :8

[pall]

Kiwiblue,
Did speak to him on the ground. He smiled and said something like, Oh well I tend to fly a tighter circuit than most other pilots. Saves tim you know.

What can I say in response to that!:ugh:

[MACH082]

Very sad to hear about this.

A little tip, when in a circuit at a CTAF, talk to the other traffic and let them know the sequence, ie take control. If you join downwind and there is someone late downwind, i will say, "i will make number 2 to you", or if it was reversed, i would say "i will make number 1 to you".

Always helps to be pro-active than re-active.

[kiwiblue]

agree Mach082, always better to be proactive, especially in high traffic-density airspace, even more so when terrain places additional constraints. Pall, faced with that sort of a response, I would have taken it up a level -everyone has to answer to someone. Find that 'someone'. Given this individuals actions and (later) attitude, I wouldn't stop until there was a definitive response.

[Flying Binghi]

ForktailDr,

My input into this thread was in relation to several posts telling of their own near-miss experiances and a call for Tcas.

I bought Oshkosh up as an example of just how succesful see and aviod can be. Oshkosh airshow has more VFR aircraft flying in an area not much bigger than the Caloundra - Redcliff CTAF, then Australia has aircraft.

Perhaps the good results at Oshkosh is that pilots expect a lot of traffic so they look out side.

Unforetunatly here in Australia, I think there are some pilots who dont look out that much and when they have the inevitable near miss, they try and blame it on the system, or a lack of some electronic warning device etc. If they were to drive their cars the same way - looking at the CD player or Passenger, the result would be the same.

Calls for costly electronic warning devices will mearly put aviation further out of reach for the average Australian. Looking out the window achieves the same result and keeps the pilots situational awareness as well.

Sad as the incident is that is the originater for this thread, it is still an extremely rare event in Australia.

[VH-XXX]

Post deleted. If you don't have something nice to say don't say it at all. I was posting about the media. They have just reported half a dozen incorrect "facts."

[Lasiorhinus]

I dont know if there are any procedures in Australian airspace that would need to be modified as a result of this tragic accident.

I'm trying to glean as much information from news reports as possible, but reports are typically newspaperesque.

[AerocatS2A]

I bought Oshkosh up as an example of just how succesful see and aviod can be. Oshkosh airshow has more VFR aircraft flying in an area not much bigger than the Caloundra - Redcliff CTAF, then Australia has aircraft.

Numbers per se don't make for traffic problems. It's more to do with the mix of operations and aircraft types.

30 cessna singles arriving in trail from one direction is no problem. A microlight in the circuit with a B737 inbound conducting a practice approach mixed with various other arrivals and departures is another matter.

It only takes two to tango!

[Flying Binghi]

A microlight in the circuit with a B737 inbound conducting a practice approach mixed with various other arrivals and departures is another matter.

AerocatS2A,

Are you describing a particular incident?

[AerocatS2A]

Not at all, but the situation occurs frequently enough where I am (without developing into an incident.)

[BEACH KING]

"Sad as the incident is that is the originater for this thread, it is still an extremely rear event in Australia."

Gee flying Binghi, I try to avoid "extremely rear events", but thats just me,
some people actually like them alot!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Ah Beachy! RATFLMAO! :ok:

Me too!

Dr :8

[Ultralights]

considering the rarity of these types of events, and considering the number of flight made every day, and the few reports of personal near misses,
maybe the cheapest and safest option to combat this problem is an increased awareness of traffic avoidance and radio procedures be placed in the training syllabus, and made a significant point in the BFR process.

it seams to me most incidences are caused by simple radio misuse errors and poor airmanship by not really paying attention to whats going on Outside the window, when you hear a radio call, make it a point to actually visually sight the aircraft making the call.

[Jabawocky]

Gooday Beachy! Any chance you are in Brissy on the 9th?

Might be worth the trip!

J

Back to topic now~

[Flying Binghi]

Good to hear there are no real incidents Aerocat S2A.

I've been looking at Dick Smiths web site - appears the airliner people have the odd one or two near misses in controlled airspace.

over...

[Ultralights]

dont quote me on this, but i remember reading somewhere that there are more near misses in Controlled airspace in OZ than uncontrolled air.

[BEACH KING]

Yeah Jaba, will be near there then. Check your PM's

[Horatio Leafblower]

Ultralights,

there are more near misses REPORTED in CTA than OCTA.

:uhoh:

[Flying Binghi]

Horatio, looks like see and avoid works then :ok:

[Capt Wally]

Over the years I've wittnessed some unbelievable 'stunts' by pilots & sadly it boils down to education I believe. And by that I mean no one was born with the knowledge to fly we all had to learn it from scratch & we all started out equal. The instructors of today have a huge responsablity to do their very best at grass roots level.(as they always have had) Today there are more & more pilot responsablities than ever. With 'see & be seen',(now a primary tool for visual separation) 'user pays' (where time is money in most cases) & things like GPS tracking resulting in even more time away from keeping our eyes outside the cockpit esspecially in VFR conditions down low where there's more uncontrolled activities.
The LTV accident although obviously very sad is something that we can learn from even if for a short time 'till the event fades & where professionalism is everything in aviation. We can never hope to stop accidents/incidents entirely but we can all just simply do it better !:-)

Capt Wally :-)

[Sunfish]

Discussing this accident yesterday, I was given a tip from beyond the grave from a friend of the late, great, Ian Mc Ritchie, who said, and I quote,...

"On a number of occasions, my life was saved by seeing the shadow of another aircraft alongside my shadow on final."

[MACH082]

Ah well sunny, you cant rely on the shadow principle in Victoria, its always cold, dark and gloomy down that way. Might be more usefull in Sydney however! :)

[VH-XXX]

There is officially more rain in Sydney than Melb, it just rains more often in Melbourne! (ABS)

It has been reported in the media that the student had 2.8 hours solo.

I now ask the question. How long does "supervised" include the instructor standing on the field watching his/her student to intervene in situations such as this? What is the "norm" for those of you who are instructors? I've heard of an RA school supervising for 3 hours (hence charging for it). Is there a rule on this? Does supervised solo include the instructor flying in another aircraft (with student) whilst "watching" the solo student?

It has also been reported that the two were in contact with each other.

I don't believe for a minute as some of you have suggested that increased radio use and or awareness will stop this from happening. It's the aircraft that you don't know about that is the biggest danger, the one that just "appears" in front of you. I believe based on the circumstances that even a CTAF(R) wouldn't have helped in this instance.

It was also reported that the deceased's aircraft was fitted with BRS - Ballistic Parachute System.

The C172 also taxiied in with Avid aileron still hanging off wind.

Terrifying flying for anyone, let alone a 16 year old with less than 3 hours solo time.

[MACH082]

generally charged a Dual rate until passed GFPT, which means the instuctor sitting on ground waiting for said student to get back. After the GFPT is passed, then still needs to be signed out, but instructor not waiting on ground for student to get back and charged at solo rate.

[Victa Bravo]

I think EVERYONE is missing the point here. How could this accident possibly happen??

If you hear another aircraft in the circuit, you LOOK FOR IT.

If you see another aircraft in the circuit, you KEEP AN EYE ON IT.

Flying a plane means more than using the primary controls.

A terrible occurrence has happened here because someone has fcuked up. Not on purpose obviously, but from a bad habit or bad training.

This is not an accident that we, as a specialized industry, look at as just bad luck.

This is an indication of a major flaw in our respective occupations / past times.

This is a terrible reflection on us all.


VB

[Flying Binghi]

Quote - This is an indication of a major flaw in our respective occupations / past times.
This is a terrible reflection on us all.


Victa Bravo,

best wait for the accident investergation to finnish before you make connections.