Nippon Cargo Airlines

[Pilotx744]

Flying for Nippon Cargo Airlines, over the last 10 years, was considered to be one of the “Rolls Royce” contracts in the Contract Aviation World. This was true for both contracting agencies, Parc Aviation and HACS (Hawaii Aviation). These 2 agencies till now was the only way to be able to fly with NCA. It’s is now time that the truth about the Company, NCA, and the contracting agencies is revealed for all prospective wannabees.

Be warned that conditions here have deteriorated beyond believe. The 2 agencies feel absolutely nothing for their “employees” and would not get involved in any action or negotiations with the Japanese to improve conditions for their so called employees. Mainly because they are scared that NCA would not use them for future hires. Who can blame then as they make an astronomical US$ 3 - 4000 monthly commission per pilot working for NCA.

Salaries are still the initial scale as it was 15 years ago, except for a minimal CPIX increase yearly. The Commuting allowances for air travel, accommodation and ground transportation are still the same as 15 years ago. Per Diem allowances is as ancient as the above mentioned allowances, averaging out at $48 per day

Management at NCA Flight Operations is a whole new experience to any Western mind. Every meeting is basically to decide when the next meeting will be and NO decisions are made. The Westerners working here are regarded as a number and just somebody that can be used and abused as they see fit. This goes from rostering all the way to crew administration. Complaints, and suggestions and request are totally ignored and no feedback is provided. They act as if a problem is ignored, it will eventually go away. The blame game is also being played between NCA and the Contracting agencies (PARC & HACS)

The main shareholders in NCA, up to about a year ago were ANA (All Nippon Airways) and NYK (Nippon Yusen Kaisha), one of the biggest and richest shipping companies in the world. NYK subsequently bought the ANA shares and is now the majority share holders of NCA. ANA all these years provided operational support and training to NCA which is coming to an end in 2009. The two companies is busy going through a slow divorce process where NCA will eventually stand alone in 2009, called “Project Phoenix”.

The company (NCA) is also going through a fleet renewal where the 747 Classics are replaced by 747-400F’s. The training on the 747-400 last a whopping 6-7 months. Notification time before the course could be anything from 10-14 days at best.

If you want to be unsure of your future, being away from home, want to be part of the “mushroom club”, sit and watch how money is wasted, see miss-management, listen to pilots complaining and be generally frustrated, this is the place for you.

[Jobear]

And praying you don't get Sakamoto for either of the JCAB rides.

[airbus2boeing]

And you forgot to mention that you need a jet PIC type rating to join as an FO.
Goodluck finding pilots NCA.

[hamil]

... it's time to move to SIA Cargo :}

[Jobear]

Heard from a friend that they washed someone out of transition training. Any truth?

[Pilotx744]

Failure rate for Western Captains = 22% (and counting),
FO's = 0 (nothing yet)
Japanese Captains = unsure but definetly higher than their Western counterparts
Japanese FO's = 0

[flea53d]

Pilotx744 are you currently with NCA? I just received the "terms" and the package sounds much different than mentioned above? $10k plus per month/per diem $76 plus per day for FOs. I would love to hear more on rosters, cockpit culture etc. How are you seat locked for 5yrs on a 3.5 year contract? Not questioning your position...just trying to figure out the "truth" from those in the know versus think they know. Thanxs for your inputs.:ok: - Flea

[pitotman]

Dude I am sure your joking............

I would not work a SQ cargo if it was the last out fit in the world. We have our troubles at NCA but atleast it ain't SQC......

Pitotman

[LindbergB767]

Anybody working for NCA and complaining CAN NOT work for any other Cie in the world

Just name me an Airlines where the FO are making around $11000 a month net and the Captain around 14000 to 17000
plus 10 days OFF a month plus 24 Days of annual leave ect....

[Pilotx744]

Flea, with regard to your first question. I'm not in a position to disclose any contract details with you or anybody else.

Henceforth, as you will see there is no mention of "terms" of conditions in my post. 5 years seat lock? ... mentioned by somebody else. What I can tell you is that you won't upgrade in the first 3.5 year contract. You will get $76 for the first 24 hours of stay, thereafter it will average out to round about $50 per day, check the fine print in the terms that you have got. This by the way is applicable to Capt's and FO's.

As far as rosters is concerned, it varies month to month. With the introduction of the -400, it's in turmoil as there are various rules and regulations (JCAB & NCA) as to who can fly with who. You can expect anything from a 15 -21 day roster. With -400's arriving thick and fast, it will lean more towards a 21 day roster as the company cannot train the guys fast enough. There will be a huge shortage of crew, as the company reluctantly not recruited for the last year. This combined with the high failure rate of the course is a recipe for tough times ahead.

[LindbergB767]

HO HO Pitot Man
do I detect some frustration
With that kind of language you w ont pass your level 4
I know a little bit about your contract as I am flying in Japan myself
In fact I know many pilots flying for NCA
They always hanging at TGI or Outback in Shinagawa
But may be they did not told me the truth

[flea53d]

Pilotx744 thanxs for your insight.:D With the shortage of crew and the fleet growing from about 10 to 24 a/c what do you see as realistic timeframe for the opportunity to upgrade is? How many nights do you typically overnight at your base during 15-20 day trip? Would love to hear any other thoughts on the job and future of NCA. If to personal for the forum, could you PM me? -Flea

[pitotman]

The answer to your question...yes very frustrated. This could be and should be one of the best jobs in the world and NCA is screwing it up badly.
Another Captain resigned today due to NCA's lack of communication and movement on our conditions...
Name an airline.............here is a couple..........Cathay mainline, Air Canada, BA, all pay more in the left and right seat...then the current NCA contract...
I just find people like you comical...Instead of promoting our plight as professional pilots you scar it with your mentality. I would not be entirely surprised if you were not even a pilot and some office boy at NCA trying to justify the continued degradation of our contract....
Pitotman

Left coaster..........ya sure that wasn't a rumor from Taipei..........;)

[LindbergB767]

NO I am not jealous at all
I make more than that a month net for flying a 767
No I have never paid for a type rating and I will not start now
And No I do not work for NCA

Let say I was WRONG but I was TOLD by many pilots flying with NCA that they had such beautiful condition

Perhaps the fact that NCA were sold to a new administration ,your working conditions have been reduced
I am really sorry for all of you
But Now what can you do to maintain or rather improve those working conditions??
It is very difficult to do it when you are on contract with an agency

[Capt. John Doe]

Guys, I would have to agree with pitotman and pilotx744. It's closer to the truth about the current conditions at NCA. I have a few buddies who are based out of SFO and they do concur with pitotman and pilotx744's posts.

Also, there are many 744 outfits that pay way less than 10k gross/month.

And if lindbergB767 makes 10k-11k+ NET/month BASE PAY on a 767 in Japan as an expat F/O, he's full of s%#t unless he's a captain (Gross, maybe 11.5k - 12.5k with all the extra "perks." I hope I understood his post correctly. If not, oops, apologize beforehand.) To make over 11k/month net, your gross would have to be between 13k-15k, depending on the tax bracket/status of whatever country, etc. I don't think so - unless you're a mainline JAL or ANA F/O. I know Skymark doesn't pay much either - because the Japanese pilots there are leaving for contract jobs with Air Japan and JP Express (ANA subsidiaries) and other JAL subsidiaries.

I've been looking and prospecting for contract jobs for a while - especially in Japan. But it's really pitiful - pay's pretty decent even compared to major US carriers (if you can get around the tax situation, even better), but the training and work conditions are horrendous. You guys really need stand up to the contract agencies and the companies to better your lifestyles. 10 days off and only 24 days of vacation?????? Come on, most airline pilots in the US have 15 - 20 days off and can make minimum 4 weeks worth of vacation.

I hope things work out for the better for current and future NCA pilots. At least your expat counterparts at ANA finally got confirmed business seats or $2,000 commuting allowance and maybe even a significant pay raise in the near future. (just heard that from a couple of excited friends of mine over there)

[Obbie]

So is that confirmed then......confirmed BIZ or 2000 usd for the commute ?

There was a thread saying that, but it has disappeared.

And HACS still have the same old terms on their web site.

Is it passed, or just a very strong will happen soon ?

[Pilotx744]

I believe (via the grapevine) that AJV/AJX are in fact getting the 1 B/Class or $2000, per month deal. That is great news for them, congratulations guys.

As the trend on this aspect of the contract world in Japan is now set, let see what NCA will make out of this. If they want to attract future hires they will have to do something similar, otherwise they're not going to get pilots that's interested. Or even, guys leaving NCA for AJV/X as we already have the licences and on top of that, get the protection of the ANA union.

As the last ANA pilots seconded to NCA leave, the union protection will go with them. NCA management will now have a field day with our rosters and other conditions, the writing is on the wall.

I don't think NCA is aware of the crisis they are going to face when their brand new -400's and -8's are parked without guys to fly them. Only time will tell!!

[ishi59]

Pilotx744, sorry to burst your bubble.

You refer to guys moving to AJV/X and getting union protection.

There is NOOOO union protection as expat crewmembers with these outfits, in fact, the contract specifically forbids ANY union activity.:mad:

Any NCA guy rushing to move to AJX/V had better have a verrrrry close look at the terms.

An AJX captain, on commencement will be on around US$9000/ month basic foir the 1st year. It will then rocket up to US$10400 pre month. Per diem =US$ 48 once training is complete. That would put him almost on par with an NCA F/O.:{

AJV is similar, except add US$1500 and 1 extra days off for "fatigue"

The rumours of significant pay rises in AJX/V are just that. RUMOURS. It would appear that the company is confident that the new commute deal will be enough. This brings it almost to the same level as Korean's deal and still way below many other contracts.

Guys, do your homework very carefully before making any moves:=

[LimaVictor]

I recently applied to NCA via PARC. I was turned down because my 744 rating is as an FO.
PARC asked me if I could do sth to get my rating as PIC!!:uhoh: I never heard sth like that before. And in the case I had a 744 PIC rating, I would never aplly for an FO seat.
Do they really find guys out there with a 744 PIC ticket willing to go and seat on the right side after 7 fre:yuk: months of japanese ATPL lecture???
:confused:

[Ricky Whizz]

Yes they do.

[blade747]

ricky... are you on NCA or are you thinking to join'em..why so sure?

....sombody on the next screening?

[angryblackman]

I suggest the foreign pilot who hates working at NCA consider the following... if you don't like it, go apply for a job in America or Canada and go back working for $ 50.00 an hour.

Stop your whining...If you spent just 6 months in training, you have no idea what the training was like in the old days. In the old days we spent 10 months in training at Japan Airlines in Tokyo, before we finished our type rating ride in the airplane in Moses Lake, Washington.

Remember; foreigners are second class citizens, never forget that.



I wrote this several days ago. Asian culture is...

Having flown for six years at Japan Airlines, Asian culture is.....

1) Accepting the fact that as a foreigner, you are a second class citizen.
2) In training, you are inferior to the local pilot, but we locals can train you to our standards.
3) As a foreigner, never question why the Asian airline does things this way or that way. And never ask why you don't do it the American way or the Canadian way. That will get you fired immediately.
4) Their standards can be difficult to understand and /or adjust too as a foreigner.
5) Never ask the WHY question (Japanese "DO****A"). i.e... Why does this do that? Or why do you do it that way? It places Asians in an uncomfortable position of explaining something they themselves don't know. Because Asian society accepts things as fact.
6) In Japan, discrimination will exist. (Very subtle). Foreigners can't just rent a place to live anywhere. Often Japanese landlords won't allow foreigners to rent from them. So, often foreigners are forced to live in a central location with other foreigners...like Yokahama.
7) JAL ticket agents were notorious for attempting to downgrade foreign aircrew members from First to Business (Captain's) and Business to Coach
(First Officers and Flight Engineers) when deadheading on International legs. While providing First and Business class seats to Japanese crews on the very same flight.
8) One foreign JAL Captain, who was fluent in Japanese, was subjected to a Japanese (JAL) Flight Attendant racial slur. She had apologized to a Japanese businessman -in Japanese- who was sitting next to the foreign JAL captain in first class (he was deadheading out of uniform) between Hawaii and Tokyo. That the airline was sorry that he (the businessman) had to sit next to the smelly foreigner in First Class and there were no other seats to relocate the businessman too.


The Koreans aren't afraid to... "Stick it to the foreigners" if need be, where the Japanese try to put on a façade of being polite.

Koreans have a belief of “Self Juche”, or Self Reliance. This is more prevalent with North Koreans, but applies to South Koreans as well. It’s one reason Korean Air Pilot’s can’t stand the fact foreigners are flying for the national airline and not Korean nationals. And one of the reasons they make it difficult to work for Korean Air. And to a lesser degree, Asiana. The bottom line is… ”you’re not welcome.”

The reason your there is of course...airline accidents.

[Pilotx744]

Nobody said anything about hate!

It surely sounds like you hated it, reading your post.

Just enlightning the wannabees, that they can make an informed decision before they apply to NCA.

[blade747]

pilotx744 is right, all we know about the asian style nothing new but would be great read some comments from people who be actually on NCA :ok:

[Ricky Whizz]

Blade - I'm sure because I'm sure, I wouldn't say so if I wasn't.

Why is it a surprise that someone without a command rating would be turned down when responding to this advert:

- Total flight time in excess of 3,000 hours
- 500 hours on commercial jet
- 150 hours or more on B747-400
- First Officer’s MUST have a command rating on B747-400
- ICAO Licence and Class 1 Medical

Angryblackman. I have to ask - have you ever seen the Monty Python Yorkshiremen sketch? 'Ouse, we used to dream of living in an 'ouse. We used to live in shoe box int middle of road.

[whazitdoinnow]

NCA is in a big transformation at the moment. That is not happening without the usual struggles.
Here are some of the facts:
-the classic will retire in March of 2008, well ahead of schedule
-that means only 6 747-400 for the time being
-3 more deliveries for fiscal year 2008
-AMS based captains work very hard, copilots are somewhat ok
-SFO no complaints so far
-JFK nice and quite as usual but uncertain now the classics will retire
-training on the 400 is 3 months in Tokyo and about 2 months in NRT
-struggles with the yankee dollar
-no information being provided to the pilotgroup
-Parc seems to be the no1 provider
Just some facts, not all of them.
Do the interview and make your own decision.

[blade747]

any confirmation for screening in january?

[boyracer]

I just completed my app for NCA, sent to me by Parc is there any truth to the rumour that any wide body P1 will do.
And info on the interview will be greatly apreciated.:)

[soliloquy]

use caution

the initial licence issue failure rate is 75%

That is risk :eek:

[whazitdoinnow]

AJV/AJX is not NCA. See the other thread about AJV. We will see what the failure rate will be with the newhires at NCA. Historically it was very low.

[rcl7700]

I've heard nasty things about the Japanese and Koreans when dealing with foreigners many times, but what about the Chinese? Is it the same ticket?

rcl

[Fullspeed]

When you join NCA, AJV, AJX you get a Jap ATP based on your current licence. Thus to get the ATP you have to be rated as P1 on type. Thus NCA send a few guys without a P1 on type to the States to get a P1 on type to be able to train in Japan.

[abtz]

They Are Really Funny To Ask Command Rating For Fo In Japan, Why Should I Be An Fo If I Have A Command Rating? You Are Right I Wish Them Goodluck In Their Search.

Abtz

[The Dominican]

Because JCAB does not issue SIC type ratings in Japan. That is why they require a "type"

[Fair.Pilot]

angryblackman,

you sounds racist in your last post. may be you had some real bad experiences.

I too, faced the same situation before.

I was in Middle East for wide body interview with a very reputable airlines.
Guess what, the office boy ( no race mention) gave no damn about me (which i couldn't care less) and bypass me a few times while dealing with some "Whitees".

These few "Whitees" were talking loudly and boasting about flying. I was offended as I made initial move to intro myself, they looked at me one kind as thou I just burnt their home! No hello, no eye contacts whatever...

Why? Because I'm Asian?

So, where do we draw the line here? Who treated who as 2nd class or even as scum of the earth?

Let's be fair, indifference treatment,discrimination, racial bias happen every where!

Just stay clean!

Guess what, these "Whitees" really feel uncomfortable later on in their flying career because...... someone they discriminised earlier on, watched over them in their job!

Equal World = Equal Treatment

[555orange]

ABTZ,

Your not getting it. Its not a "Captain" rating as such.... with Capt time on type etc etc. Of course you wouldnt downgrade to FO..or at least most people wouldnt unless your gaing ALOT in lifestyle. Its just called a "command" rating in that its not a "second in command" rating, like some countries give. They just want to make sure you have the blanket rating. In alot of countries, you just get a rating...and its the same for FO's and Capt's. Its the company that upgrades you and it has nothing to do with your rating. However some countries actually differenciate between FO and Capt ratings. The japanese just dont want an "FO rating". Its mandated by the JCAB. It doent mean you were a capt when you applied. Get it??

[WallyBallbearing]

I have a Canadian 744 type on my license. I'm an FO though and did my ride in the right seat. I dont know if Canada differentiates between Capt and FO on your licence, but rather on your PPC. Am I right on this?

Would NCA consider this a good qualification?

BTW, thanks for the heads up on the NCA situation. Have to think about that.:ugh:

[Absolutely]

As 555Orange says, you guys aren't getting it.

Most countries, when you do an aircraft rating, issue you a P1 (Command Rating). Regardless of which seat you did it in in the sim and regardless of how the company wants to employ you (FO or Capt).

Australia is one I can think of that doesn't do that so an FO in Australian airlines will have FO designated on his licence for that aircraft type.

The JCAB does not recognize an FO rating on a jet aircraft. You need a P1 "Command Rating" on your licence. It doesn't matter if you were not employed as a Captain in a previous life.

In Japan, when you do your sim training, even the guys employed as FO's still do all their sim training from the left seat. The company then puts them in the right seat and employs them as FO's.

As for your Canadian licence I'm not sure but I think you would have a P1 Command Rating.

Cheers.

[Absolutely]

I should add that the fact the Japanese train FO's in the left seat of the sim is just a quirk of the JCAB. You do not need to be trained in the left seat in your previous airline to have the P1 Command rating. You just can't have FO annotated on your licence like you would in Australia.

Having said all that when Ansett Airlines fell over a bunch of Ansett FO's paid for some sim time and did a P1 Command Rating Check with a CASA Checker, on what ever aircraft they were flying at the time in Australia to get a job in Japan.

So it's not impossible to get around the problem.

[Zurg]

Time to command best guessed at 3-5 years (don't be lead by the agencies telling you less time - hasn't happened!)

Contract is for 10 days off a month, plan on that, anything extra is a bonus. The "good old days" of working 14 days a month are long gone. Bear in mind if you ask for days off near the start of one month and near the end of the next, you will be on the road for 30+ days in between. Travel to base on your days off to start work too, so our long haul commuters are getting 7-8 nights home a month.

[Zurg]

Generally pretty obliging, they do try to give you your requests. Most people would get 10 in a row as they request, especially the long haul commuters. Occasionally 8 +2 and many people now split into 2 X 5 or so to keep from the mammoth times away from home.

Just bear in mind it only takes yet another change of rosterer (4 in the last 2 years) for the policy to change. The contract is the final arbiter!

[Sonic69]

My good friend dispatched the Chief Pilot of NCA on a flight and he mentioned that I was taking my CPL and fATPL. Apparently, the CP asked for me to send in my resume as NCA would consider hiring a low time fATPL for FO.

Any freight dogs from NCA know this to be true?

[whazitdoinnow]

Only if your last name is "something" -san!

[Sonic69]

Yeah, I thought it was too good to be true.

[Sonic69]

Hey Labomba, Congratulations! I am sooooooooo jealous.
Hopefully sometime next year I will also be in an airliner.

Happy Landings!

[daviddea]

FEd EX and UPS

[LarryDCableGuy]

^^ Wat? :confused::confused:

[Poita]

Anyone getting a interview without B747 rating? For the US base (or any base for that matter) does NCA take care of the VISA requirements if you dont have one for that country?

Thanks.

[WallyBallbearing]

"Hold a current and valid ATPL licenceand must
hold a B747-400 Rating.
Total Flight Time 3,000 hours with a minimum of
500 hours on 2 man jet aircraft.
Total B747-400 Time 150 hours.
Minimum of 250 hours PIC time on commercial
jet"

Is the 250 hours commercial jet new? I know of several guys that are working at NCA that don't have this requirement (At least I think they didn't).

Parc says there's no waiver for this even with 3000 hours on type and a command rating. Gotta have it.

True?

[320busdrvr]

Does anyone knows if Nippon cargo airlines accepts non-rated applicants?

Any info will be great..:O

[Ghost_Rider737]

How do you guys at NCA cope with family life while being away from home for so long ?

[coltrane]

@ 320busdrvr

I sent Parc an email with that exact question and unfortunately they confirmed that NCA definitely does not consider non rated candidates at this time....

[320busdrvr]

@coltrane

Thanks a lot for the info.

[jrwhitehat]

All info should be available on the HACS website.

hawaiiaviation.com :ok:

[Webslinger]

What is starting pay for their FO's. Any 401k or retirement? What is upgrade time and will the Japanese upgrade any expat FO's? Do you fly with all Japanese or a mix of Expats?

[patxiPA]

Hi all,

Any clue about how to pass the first requirement?

"Valid command rating on 747", all the JAR licences say COPILOT, as mine does.

Anybody from the inside to bring some light?!

[Labomba]

" all the JAR licences say COPILOT": far from true.... Yours might, mine doesn't. Nothing written (although Bus n no 747...) on my licence... Sorry to ask, but do you have your ATPL?

As for those asking for salary range, interesting post, probably accurate on another forum cc NCA...

[roughrider747]

wondering if anyone who attended the Oct screening has received a reply yet? Thanks

RR747

[upspeed]

@RR747:

Yep. Passed the the SIM and interview, done the medical and waiting for the exam results. What do you wanna know?

Cheers,

Upspeed.

[roughrider747]

Sorry, should have clarified, i passed sim and interview as well, just wondering if anyone has heard about the medicals.

RR747

[Floatsnowlonghaul]

I think they were waiting for all the medicals to be finished (the last day of medical checks was Nov 9th).
Apparently, the results will go right to NCA and they will discuss who goes in what course and when -
Having said that, I think the results take a couple of weeks (from the medical).

[upspeed]

That's pretty much what I've been told as well. Did the medical mid october and was told by the clinic to expect results in 2-4 weeks at least, which would be sent DCT NCA.

Also AFAIK the early october group still without results. As another colleague said "maybe good....maybe not good".

Fingers crossed for the "maybe good".

Cheers.

[bullett]

Just got invite to June screening. Reading through the info from Parc, just wondering how the base/gateway airport works - if the 2 are different, can you ask which one you will start/finish at ?

Also, do you know what is the maximum age they will renew your contract ?

Thanks in advance, Bullett

[737KAL]

they r still hiring FO? How about the salary now? Can I get a chance to be captain?