Pax banned from flying still flying.

[trixy]

Hello all,. .Thought I would throw this one out to you all to reply to,. .We had a very heated debate in the aft galley today on this matter.. .One of our crew members today who i was flying with,was out on sick leave for some time because of an incident which occured on board with a violent pax.. .It ended up in court with the pax getting fined £900 and banned from flying on this airline which will remaine nameless.. .Two weeks after returning to work after being out on sick leave she is on board working and guess who is sitting two rows away from her???

Yeah you guessed it the Pax who was banned from flying on this airline for life,sitting there with his wife.. .What would you have done,knowing that you had another 8 hours before you land?

I never ever thought this would be allowed happen,can anyone explain to me can you realy ban a pax from flying and keep track of the list of banned pax even with all the booking that are now being done on the internet??

PS. I was even more angry when i heard he was allowed to just walked off the plane with wife in tow.

TRIXY THE FAIRY.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[atco-matic]

why should you be angry that ''he just walked off the plane with his wife in tow''? would you rather he had punched you in the face? he hadn't comited an offence, so why shouldn't he just walk off the plane?

[flapsforty]

Trixi, your questions are difficult to answer since you do not state what comp not what country. . .What could anyone have done in your colleagues situation? Options rather limited once you're all stuck in the tube at FL350. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Apart from which, I can very well understand the frustration felt by all of you. As if your comp really doesn't give a sh!t for it's FA's and their safety. Perhaps the best thing would be for you and your colleagues to take up this matter with your immediate boss and see what he/she can tell you about company policy on this issue? It can't be all that hard to keep certain pax off the AC if the comp really wants to. With the passport check at check-in it is possible to fish out the undesirables as long as the check-in computer has a list of these darlings. The way they booked their ticket does not matter in this respect.. .If your boss has no answers, try your airline's security department, and if all else fails, involve your union.

ATCO while your comment is in essence correct, it conveys little understanding of Trixy's post and the situation she describes. . .I guess it must be difficult for you to understand the impact of getting punched in the face by a passenger. . .Try using some empathy before you post on a sensitive subject like this mate.

[Xenia]

atco-matic, maybe you didn't read trixy post properly??? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[sweety]

Easy to believe it is possible to happen if the airline they work for cares more about money rather than crew & safety on board.

Sadly I don't believe there is much we can do...

Feel sorry for the CC who had to face it. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[mariachristinak]

Hello everybody!. .My personal experience is this:. .Once in preparation for landing I had to wake up a female passanger who was sleeping across a row of seats.Her reaction was to punch me in the stomach and tell me to **** off!When I notified the Captain on this his reply was that "...this things happen"!!!When I asked the company to ban this passanger from flying with us,their reply was that they can't do such a thing because "...after all, it's passengers who pay our salary!"Plus,they told me that if I wanted to take this passenger to court, the company would not back me up,as well as that this would count against me in my evolution within the company (of course there was no union to support me).. .Needless to say,I no longer fly for this airline anymore.

[trixy]

Thanks for the replys,. .(I work for a european carrier if i was to name the country were i work it would be very easy to guess who the airline was,sorry about that)

Auto matic -Point is he should never have been allowed travel and he evaded a court impossed sentence.If he had caused trouble there was no way he was walking off that plane!!

If a pax has a court imposed sentence and was banned from flying.What happens when he then breaks the conditions of his sentences?. .Surely you could refuse to carry him?. .As he was travling from the country were the sentences was passed??

Also how can you identify a pax at check in when all they check is the name is the same as the ticket this is a manual process.. .If the pax was on a banned list ,say his name was Joe Bloggs every time a pax with the same name checked in they would have to check his passport number off a list on a computer.How long would the check in Q be then?

The only reason that this situation was noticed was the fact that the crew member who was attacked was on board if she wasn't no would be the wiser.So this beggs the question how many other times could this have happened not just in my airline but others???

Just to defend the company i work for they do look after the safety of their crews and have no problems with crew refusing to carry a pax at boarding(with due reason),the company just say it should not have happened and will investgate further.. .Its a bit different when you do charters and you have problems with a pax on the way out i have had many a flight were the company have refused travel to known trouble makers because we knew what happened on the way out and it was easy to identify what there return flight would be as it was on the same ticket .Problem is when they re book on a different day on a different ticket.

Thanks. .TRIXY THE FAIRY

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: trixy ]</p>

[atco-matic]

ok trixy, so if it was such a problem, why didn't you complain before the flight departed? or why didnt you ask for him or the cabin crew member to be moved to another area of the cabin? (presuming it wasn't 30 seater or something?) Problem with these posts is you usually only get half the story... but as i said before, maybe you should have been glad that he had obviously learnt his lesson?

[ttp]

[quote]Her reaction was to punch me in the stomach and tell me to **** off!When I notified the Captain on this his reply was that "...this things happen. .[\quote]

These things do happen, apparently I told a FA to **** off, when he tried to wake me up to offer me breakfast on a LAX - LHR flight once. I'm not proud of saying it, but would probably do it again.

[tyga78]

Nick Thompson, I hope for your sake that you are not flight crew because I'm sure an airline would have you for breakfast if they got wind of that sort of behaviour. I know I wouldn't tolerate it if it were my aeroplane and companies I have worked for certainly don't except that kind of behaviour.. .To Trixy and Mamia, I'm sorry to hear that you have been caught up in a mess like this. It's sad that some companies don't offer support and can only hope that everything works out in the end.

[Chrismcmon]

The passenger will have been in breach of his sentence under the Criminal Porocedure Act for the country the sentence was imposed. He still can and should be reported to the appropriate police authority who will prosecute him for failure to comply with the conditions laid down. After a guilty verdict which shouldnt be to difficult to prove He could be looking at a custodial sentence. All it will take is someone from the airline to report the matter

[ttp]

tyga78, no just a paying customer.

[flapsforty]

Chris, a most useful answer, especially in view of your profile!. .Trixy, finally someone who is able to answer your most important question. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/up.gif

Let's hope Trixy's company takes appropriate action so the troublemaker in fact gets locked up for a bit.

[flapsforty]

ttp I have trouble understanding your argument that "these things happen". How do you mean they just happen? It's not as if telling someone to f**k off is an act of God?. .It is you in posession of all your faculties (even if you just woke up) who decides to say this?

So if you're not proud of it, why repeat it? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Tell me something else as well, why should we have to accept that kind of foul rudeness when all we are doing is trying to serve you properly?. .If you do not want breakfast, tell the FA before you go to sleep, and he or she won't wake you. You avoid the problem and you save yourself the embarassment of behaving like an uncouth £$#€&.

(FYI, if we don't wake sleeping pax for breakfast, there are always a number of them who object to having been "callously neglected")

ttp, normal rules of courtesy also apply to passengers on aircraft. By disregarding them, you forfeit any claim to proper service.

I find your attitude both unbelievable & offensive.

[Xenia]

ttp... http://www.smilies.nl/crossbones.gif. .not "just" a paying customer http://www.smilies.nl/schmoll.gif. .Whoever you are, or whatever your position is, let me tell you something.... .You lack the most basic principles of a human being....education and respect towards others! . .Uhmmmm....something is telling me your name is definitely not going to shine in our forum http://www.smilies.nl/rough/crucified.gif

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

[trixy]

Thanks Chris for that info will follow this up my self if i have to.

TRIXY THE FAIRY. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ttp]

Flapsforty & Xenia, I'm afraid that if some-one is physically shaking me, awake or asleep, they are going to be told to go away. This guy had a hand on each of my shoulders & was shaking me.

It's a nice idea telling the FA that I don't want to be woken, but experience has shown me that it makes no difference in the rear cabin.

I can believe that pax complain when they are not woken, but I work in an industry where I can't win sometimes as well.

Xenia, you have no idea what my education is, & in my view one has to earn respect.

In general though, I do have respect for cabin crew, they often do a thankless job in the face of difficult pax, particularly on ex-UK charter flights.

Equally, I do resent the different way I am treated depending on the cabin I sitting in.

As to the original question, I can believe that some-one ignorant enough to hit some-one else, can be ignorant enough to believe that they can get away with ignoring a court order.

FWIW the airline I fly most with gives me reward certificates to give to staff who perform 'above & beyond the call of duty' & it is very rare that I don't give at least one member of the cabin crew one of these certificates.

[flyblue]

ttp,

you tell us about your education yourself when you admit telling someone to **** off. You can consider someone not worth respect (even if in this case I would have considered the guy only lacking of commonsense)but still behave like a well educated person. Having in front of you a criminal doesn't allow you to behave as such.

[flapsforty]

ttp, if it weren't for the barb about being treated differently in different classes, I'd swear there is an olivebranch somewhere in that post of yours. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

If you are interested in a bit of background on the "different treatment" let me know, and I'll be happy to share some of my ideas on the subject with you. If you only wanted to get a moan in, we'll leave it as is.

Either way, thank you for shedding some more light on these for us endlesslesly fascinating subjects; what goes on in the minds of our passengers, how is what we do percieved by those we serve and how can we try and improve the total experience for all of us on the aircraft

[ttp]

Flapsforty, yes there was a small olivebranch there, but as a pax who flys 80,000 odd miles a year on a variety of airlines, I do have some issues with cabin crews & as you may have guessed, the different treatment between cabins is one of them :-).

I would love to hear the your perspective of this.

If you would like my view of flying from a pax point of view, both positive & negative, I would be pleased to share them :-)

Flyblue, my language says a lot more about my post-grad experience of working in heavy engineering rather than any formal education.

[twinkletoes]

I've had serveral nasty experiences having to wake people up, they can be real S#*T bags. However after they have properly woken up they have no recollection of what they have done and when confronted are most remorseful. Hmmmm real dilema, my suggenstion wake,then stand well back, a bit like the old phrase on fireworks 'light blue touch paper and retire'. Could you just poke them with a long sharp stick, gets my vote.. .As far as 'problem pax' goes, I think once they are banned it should be up held. I don't see many criminals let lose just because the prison warders find them to be 'thoroughly nice folks'.. .If somehow they have got onto another flight with the same airline and this time have behaved themselves this doesn't redeem them. There should provisions made to allow you to report them and in turn for them to be fined.

[flyblue]

ttp,. .I think we use language to express something, and the more educated a person is, the more articulate ideas and speech. . .If someone does something awkward or rude, an educated person tries to explain his point of view about it, or maybe protest explaining the reason of his disagreement. An ineducated person takes a club and hits the head of the interlocutor, like our ancestors used to do when they still lived in the caverns. That is what makes us different from them. Evolution means also an evolution in behavior, because people started noticing that it is common interest to have behavioral rules.. .Telling someone to F*** of is the verbal equivalent of hitting someone in the head.. .If, as you suggest, you have spent time in manly occupations with undoubtedly manly hard workers, let me tell you that I strongly believe in example from higher as a way to educate those who weren't as lucky as to have a good education, whichever is the kind.. .This said, I modestly hand my olive branch.

[ttp]

Flyblue, I think we will have agree to disagree, I'm not going to have a reasoned discussion with some-one who is shaking me from a deep sleep, when all I want to do is go back to sleep & wake up slowly.

Taking the moral high ground is all very well, but it just wouldn't work in the industries I worked in, they would just see it as a sign of weakness.

Thankfully, being a diplomat was never part of my job spec.

[Xenia]

So.... .If a F/A wakes u up with your meal u tell her/him to "f"%$ Oç°" If she/he doesn't, you will complain you haven't been fed...I suppose we will never get it right! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .Saying so, in some airlines it is Company policy NOT to wake up pax who are asleep during cabin services. That could solve many CC queries, and hopefully pax like ttp being rude (still wondering how you get away with that) <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> . .As a purser I don't care who you are, one of my responsibilities on board is to look after the wellbeing of all my pax and of all my crew. As far as I am aware, it is a legal offence to abuse (physically and/or verbally)any members of a crew, and you could be prosecuted for that. . .Law doesn't admit ignorance and it is the same for everyone.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

[mariachristinak]

I STRONGLY RESENT MY COLLEAGUES, MY CREW OR MYSELF BEING TREATED AS PUNCH BAGS!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . .Wether abuse is verbal or physical. . .Fact is that whenever an energency situation arises - and believe me, during my flying years I've been in several of those - all pax are looking at us to get their a***s out of that aircraft and we risk our own lives to do so, and we do it for the sake of the souls we carry onboard. And to get a reward like this... <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Xenia]

Don't get so angry Tata, it's not good for your health honey!

[ttp]

quote. .I suppose we will never get it right. ./quote

You're obviously not a married man, otherwise you wold know the feeling better.

. .quote. .As far as I am aware, it is a legal offence to abuse (physically and/or verbally) members of a crew, and you could be persecuted for that.. ./quote

If an airline persecuted me for that, & I'm not sure how they could persecute a pax. I'm sure I could find another airline who would take my money, preferably one which has a policy of not waking pax for cabin services.

If however they had prosecuted me, the FA would have found himself on an assault charge. According to the pax sitting next to me, he was shaking me quite violently.

[Xenia]

<a href="http://www.raes.org.uk/human_factors/skyano59.htm" target="_blank">http://www.raes.org.uk/human_factors/skyano59.htm</a>

[EGGW]

If any passenger is offensive to one of the Cabin Crew on one of my flights, they will be told in no uncertain terms that their behaviour is inappropriate, via a typed notice. If the behaviour continues, then they will be escorted off the airplane by the Police, and if necessary prosecuted.. .True their are issues about the way anyone behaves regards being woken etc <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> but if anyone laid a hand on one of my crew, they would be off loaded en-route, or met by a reception committee at the airport. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif

[flapsforty]

ttp, airlines can & do prosecute passengers these days. It is a good thing.. .On this subject I reckon the ANO ammendment says most of it.

On the other subject; are you proposing a "I'll show you mine, you show me yours"? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . .Let's do it!

[ttp]

quote. .airlines can & do prosecute passengers these days. It is a good thing.. ./quote

I know, & from the cases I've seen reported, they seem to deserve it, but they do seem to have a been a little bit more extreme than my situation.

As an example I was on a TWA flight from STL to LGW just before Christmas & during boarding a well dressed female pax came forward past me, shouting & swearing at any-one & every-one & even though I heard the purser say that 'she didn't have to fly today', she re-boarded a few minutes later as if nothing had happened, had I been the purser she wouldn't have flown on that flight.

Apparently she had been assigned & been given a boarding card for a seat that didn't exist, something I would have found funny if it had been me.

quote. .On this subject I reckon the ANO amendment says most of it.. ./quote

If that is the link Xenia posted, I can't connect to it, but will have a look with a decent connection from work next week.

quote. .On the other subject; are you proposing a "I'll show you mine, you show me yours"? . .Let's do it!. ./quote

If that refers to my wish to know your side, yes please, I want to know what will make my life easier when I fly.

[flapsforty]

ttp, we all have different reasons for posting here. We also have different tolerances for other people's percieved attitudes as displayed here.

There is no telling what kind of person you are from the few posts you've made on this thread, so I am trying hard not to jump to any conclusions about you.

At the same time I admit that the way you phrase your posts and the barbs that you put in them, do not make it attractive to answer you. . .The reason I have continued to answer you is a sort of silly idealism; a belief that communication will overcome most obstacles between people. . .At the same time I have a fierce temperament and little true patience for mailicious intent.

Your closing remark "I want to know what will make my life easier when I fly." p!sses me off to the extent that I have no desire to use anymore time on trying to build a bridge between you and myself.

. .My failing, my weakness, I readily admit it. :) . .Good thing is that neither you nor I will lose a moment's sleep over it.

To make myself clear, I am with Xenia and EGGW on this:. .Come on my aircraft, behave like a lout and I will make you sorry you ever opened your big mouth. In a seemingly pleasant and polite way I will show you up for the idiot you are in front of the other passengers. In such a way that they shut you up. . .I've done it before and I'll do it again, and no misbehaving passenger has ever enjoyed the experience.. .Should you decide to get physical with any FA, I will make sure you get prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I will put you in uncomfortable steel handcuffs, I will make sure you get a humiliating police escort off the aircraft, we will have our day in court and you will pay a hefty fine.. .Been there and done that as well.

You do not need to be pleasant, you do not need to be polite to us because as long as your behaviour falls within the parameters set out by the ANO, I will make sure that my FA's and I give you the very best service we can. . .Pleasant, polite and with a smile, trying to win you back as a customer for our company next time you fly.

But get out of line and you will regret that you ever sat your sorry a*se on my aircraft.

I trust we understand eachother now. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[kennedy]

ttp,

I would like to add my two pence worth to the replies posted by flapsforty ( who I work with), Xenia (who I used to work with) and others, instructing a F/A to **** off is unacceptable behaviour in the air or on the ground!!!

The Cabin crew do a marvellous job for little reward, and don't need to put up with assults, either verbal or physical from passengers, no matter which end of the cabin those passengers are seated.

I should also like to remind you that cabin crew are aboard the aircraft primally for your SAFETY, and, when not busy looking after your safety, for your comfort!!

And if you ever use those tones to a member of my crew, you will have to find an alternative mode of transport!!!

End of rant, have some respect for the crew.

Sorry my mistake, xenia just informed me that I don't work with Flaps40

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: kennedy ]</p>

[fergineer]

Kennedy as an FE there have been times when the cabin crew have requested a presence down the back, it was easier for me to get out of my seat than the drivers airframe and it is amazing what bars on shoulders can do . However on returning from one of my walkabouts I was accosted by a very drunk woman and my senior had to come rescue me, how they put up with it I just don't know all power to them and any airline that don't back their crews to the hilt aint worth flying for IMHO.

[jmccrew]

given that ttp would not know for what he was being woken i take it his response each time would be F--- off . I pity the crew member who tries to wake him during turbulence to get him to fasten his seat belt .. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[ttp]

jmccrew my seatbelt was fastened (it always is when I am seated), on the outside of the blanket & my seat was in the upright posistion & my tray table was stowed, so apart from a crash I can't think of any reason to be woken, & in the case of a crash I think I would prefer not be woken.

[ttp]

flapsforty, thank you for that, I haven't meant to be rude or particularly to have a dig at anyone here, just state my point of view.

I have only recently joined this BBS, & it is somewhat different from other boards I use, most of those seem more suited to my sense of humour, perhaps I should have waited & read more before I opened my big mouth.

I'm sorry my closing remark p_____ y____ ___f, the (unsaid) implication of that statement was 'if it makes my life easier, it will make yours easier' & conversely 'if there is anything I can do that will make your life easier, it will make my life easier' & I do genuinely want to know what I can do that would make your life easier, but will understand if you wish to close the conversation.

I don't know how to phrase this so it doesn't sound antagonistic, that is not my intention, but if I perceive that someone is assaulting me, I will tell them to go away, if I am asleep at the time, it's more likely to be a few sharp words rather than a reasoned discussion.

FWIW I didn't touch this guy, in my almost 50 years of life have I never hit anyone & don't intend to start now.

I must admit I don't consider that one word equates to 'acting like a lout', but as I said I'm used to a harsher environment.

. .I don't know what other Boards you post on. Here we are a group on professional people, who love our job, and are very proud of it.. .Edited your language on top <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . .Xenia. .Cabin Crew & SLF Forum Moderator

Sorry for the language, I thought I was quoting flapsforty, but missed the !.

. .[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: ttp ]</p>

[Xenia]

Ok, don't try to be 2 smart now! :) . .I believe this topic is getting to a sterile point http://www.smilies.nl/uhoh3.gif. .Uhmmmm.....looks like it will go to sleep soon http://www.smilies.nl/yellows/dozey.gif

[chrishowley]

A read through this post tells me that the professionalism of Cabin Crew extends well beyond the aircraft doors and gives me great heart as a passenger. I really don't think you should have to spend all this effort justifying yourselves away from 'the office' and yet I have just read a lot of extremely well reasoned and informative information. I only hope I show a similar devotion to my career as you do to yours.

On a further point (which I admit is a digression) I do not understand why airlines don't advertise their 'sleeping policy' more widely. We always get the reminder to fasten the seatbelt over the blanket but never have I come across anyone telling us their policy on waking for breakfast. Once in business class (years ago) I got a sticker to put on my seat saying 'wake me for breakfast' and an other which said 'do not disturb'. I also think it would be useful if a stronger message was sent out informing passengers that they will be woken for landing. In my view this should appear in the saefty demonstration and on the safety card. Any thoughts, further info?

[qfcabin]

Beautifully handled flaps...experience shines through...

[trixy]

Since I first posted this post I have spent most of my spare time trying to find out how it could have happened I have come across some very worrying facts.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .I have checked this out with an aviation security expert and they agreed that it is a problem that has gone unnoticed.. .. .We all know that most airlines have a list of Pax, which they say have been barred from flying because of their behavior on board.. .. .The major problem is that most airlines do not have the technology to screen all bookings and prevent these Pax from flying.. .. .Even if you have the Pax name ie.Joe Bloggs ,they cross reference this with their address that the Pax would have resided at, at time of offence, all they have to do is to move or change address and they become a different Joe Bloggs.. .. .If the passport number is taken all you have to do is to report your passport missing and then you become a different Joe Bloggs with a different passport number.. .. .It seems that it is next to impossible to prevent these people from flying.. .So how safe are the skies up there for us as crew ???. .What can be done?. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .You can quite easily prove that airlines do not provide you with a safe working environment and they cannot claim to do so. . .Just how many times has this happened? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Trixy the fairy.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />