PDA

View Full Version : Qantas Captain Collapses in flight


neville_nobody
29th Nov 2007, 02:11
Probably one argument against an MPL!

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/qantas-pilot-collapses-in-cockpit/2007/11/29/1196037038648.html

The captain of a Qantas jet flying over the middle of the Pacific Ocean collapsed, causing an alert to be sent to Australia and setting emergency crews at Cairns on standby, the Transport Safety Bureau stated in a report released today.

The captain was in charge of a Qantas 767-300 overnight flight from Nagoya, Japan, to Cairns on July 9 this year. He had just handed over the controls to his co-pilot at 4pm (Co-ordinated Universal Time), when he collapsed.
"The co-pilot heard a bang and turned to see the PIC [pilot-in-charge] had collapsed on the cockpit floor," the report stated.
"The co-pilot switched on the cockpit lights and saw that the PIC appeared to be staring into space and remained unresponsive."
The co-pilot called the cabin service manager via an intercom and was forced to leave his seat - leaving the plane unmanned - to pull the captain clear of the inward opening cockpit door, to allow access.
The captain had been about to go to the toilet when he collapsed and it was later established that he was suffering from a severe bout of gastro, the report stated.
As the captain was treated by the cabin manager the co-pilot returned to his seat and made a decision as to whether the plane would be diverted.
"The aircraft was midway between Guam and Cairns, with tropical storm activity behind. The co-pilot decided to continue to Cairns and the aircraft's speed was increased slightly," the report stated.
The captain was treated with oxygen and a doctor, a passenger on the aircraft, was called to the cabin.
The co-pilot also sent an alert call and Cairns airport emergency crews were placed on standby for the plane's arrival.
Within an hour the captain had recovered sufficiently to return to the cockpit, where he remained for the rest of the flight, and the plane touched down at Cairns without incident a few hours later.
The captain was cleared to return to flight duties a few days later.
The norovirus gastro-intestinal illness was "prevalent" in Australia at the time, the report stated.

teresa green
29th Nov 2007, 05:35
I see crew meals have not improved! Poor bloke, I know how he feels. Did that myself once flying a twotter down in Tassie, but I was on my own, so had to land, and the pax had the pleasure of seeing me throwing up on the tarmac in Launie. Such was flying in the sixties! Felt a proper goose. :hmm:

das Uber Soldat
29th Nov 2007, 06:00
Im disappointed that the journo didn't fit "screaming dive" into the article. Shame.

Ron & Edna Johns
29th Nov 2007, 06:29
- leaving the plane unmanned -

Oh brother....

Shark Slayer
29th Nov 2007, 06:37
"Anyone else have the fish......?"

Be real people how often does this happen? Anyway I've seen all the movies and we all know the confident and beautiful afro-american cabin crew lands the plane without raising a sweat or upsetting her hair-do!

Hope you're better soon captain.

Xatrix
29th Nov 2007, 06:40
You mean they didn't dive into Momote or Moresby for some 'world class' medical treatment for said Captain?:}

Capn Bloggs
29th Nov 2007, 08:38
Did the FO log a couple of hours command time?
And is it true that he left his seat to get the red pen out of his overnight bag to cross the captain's name off the seniority list? :}

training wheels
29th Nov 2007, 09:00
From my ATPL Human Factors course recently, incidents of this nature is the most common cause for pilot incapacitation. So no big deal really, if the journo cared to do his/her research. ;)

tipsy2
29th Nov 2007, 11:06
Research

A journalist wouldn't know what that means......................:E

tipsy

SmokingHole
29th Nov 2007, 11:34
Must have been the baby spinach and bean salad with a side of brussell sprouts and steamed cabbage.
Nothing a good turd won't fix.:{

Kiwiguy
29th Nov 2007, 11:54
Anybody can get a noro virus and they're virulent as hell. You get uncontrollable diarrhea for days. your stomach turns sommersaults. Poor bastard.

airbusa330
29th Nov 2007, 12:05
Journo's are on a par with the lowest from of life.
I like the PIC definition,or the tropical storm that was behind them,or leaving the plane unmanned...............

ScottyDoo
29th Nov 2007, 12:37
Was it on a -400?

Probably another case of "rim steak"..... :yuk:

Taildragger67
29th Nov 2007, 12:53
Scotty,

The captain was in charge of a Qantas 767-300 overnight flight from Nagoya, Japan, to Cairns

Keep up, son!

JetRacer
29th Nov 2007, 13:41
Capn Bloggs:

Did the FO log a couple of hours command time?


I would be onto Ops and Payroll to make sure my pay was updated!! :E:eek::}:ok:

Travelair
30th Nov 2007, 00:45
I love this bit:

"The aircraft was midway between Guam and Cairns, with tropical storm activity behind..."

Who cares?

Poor bloke, I know how it feels!
travel

ScottyDoo
30th Nov 2007, 20:13
Did the FO log a couple of hours command time?

Tower: "Quantas 69 we note your mayday. State your intentions?"

The SO : "Quantas 69, Track coastal to the field at 500' AGL then some aeros and a couple of circuits..."

Stiff Under Carriage
30th Nov 2007, 22:05
Scotty,

Quantas 69

Unsure if it was said with a joke, like your '400' question above or you generally do not know, either way, when your talking about our national carrier, as much as i dislike them show some respect and spell the company name correctly, its has been shown a few times, including the title.

Its 'QANTAS'!!!!!!!

Rant over.

Towering Q
1st Dec 2007, 00:43
The captain of a Qantas jet flying over the middle of the Pacific Ocean

Based on my Collins World Atlas, the 'middle of the Pacific Ocean' would appear to be somewhere between Tahiti and Hawaii.:hmm:

teresa green
1st Dec 2007, 05:25
Actually Pass A Frozo, I said absolutely nothing, just excused myself, did a bit of washing in the Mens sink in the dunny, and staggered back to the aircraft. The pax just looked at me with eyes as big as saucers, as I got back in cranked her up and headed for HBA praying there would be no more little accidents. To add to my misery the Boss got up me for being late, (they could do that then) and it was not much later before they brought in the two crew rule. (when you think about it was bloody dangerous), but of course the Airlines grew out of the war and many of the pilots were ex Lancaster Bomber pilots and were tough, hard, bastards, even though they were still fairly young, but having survived WW2 nobody thought your guts could bring you undone, aviation was a tough business then.

Capn Bloggs
1st Dec 2007, 12:42
Its 'QANTAS'!!!!!!!

I thought it was Qontas...

Capt Coco
1st Dec 2007, 12:57
Up here ATC thinks it's "CUNTAS 69" well at least that's what it sounds like!!

Jetfume
6th Dec 2007, 10:08
No no no it can not be CUNTAS 69 because c:mad:ts are smelly and usefull !!

And QF guys are only mmmm.........................you choose !

just taking the piss guys nothing personal

Mud Skipper
6th Dec 2007, 10:15
Fume you are a troll.

Beside that GD has clearly told us there is no U in QANTAS, that's why he's hell bent on Jetstar f*cking us around :\

captaintunedog777
6th Dec 2007, 22:13
The co-pilot called the cabin service manager via an intercom and was forced to leave his seat - leaving the plane unmanned - to pull the captain clear of the inward opening cockpit door, to allow access.

Ok I do not know the facts. BUt what the bloody hell was the FO doing leaving his seat. How many FA's does a 767 have? Answer "Plenty". Dragging someone from a seat is prob the greatest risk of knocking out the A/P. What would have happened if the Cap flipped out and knocked out the fuel master or A/P.

Does any clown remember the Aeroflop disaster. There were at least 3 capacitated pilots in the deck at the time.

This is a case for serious revew of pilot incapacitation procedures.

Zero marks from me, chills up and down my spine and an investigation warranted over this incident.

blueloo
6th Dec 2007, 22:22
Sometimes a little judgement and common sense are allowed.

speeeedy
6th Dec 2007, 22:25
Captaitunedog777:

Dragging someone from a seat is prob the greatest risk of knocking out the A/P

Read the story again, you idiot.

The captain was on the floor blocking the door (not in his seat as you suggest). The door could not be opened, so the F/O got out for a very short time to allow entry of the CSM.

Totally acceptable behaviour, and even with the considerable benefit of hindsight I would do EXACTLY the same thing.

I know pilots just can't wait to tip S&%T on other pilots, but please read the story properly first.

Better to shut up and be thought a fool then speak up and remove all doubt!

captaintunedog777
6th Dec 2007, 22:56
Like I said leaving the seat puts the a/c at risk. I do not know the entire facts. But as soon as the a/c is unmanned then all are at risk. Even if he is lying on the floor blocking the door. So speeeeedy think about it son. Everyone on board versus 1 pilot. Sure use some common sense. Maybe you could use some further brainwashing err I mean training if you would do the same thing. Maybe you need to do some weights if you couldn't twist around and drag the pilot clear so an FA could get in.

Veruka Salt
6th Dec 2007, 22:58
Exactly as I would have done too.

. . . and the 767 has a fairly large flightdeck. Even a 6ft3 giant like me couldn't twist around in my seat and budge a hefty male clear of the inward opening flightdeck door.

Oh, and I work out . . . :E

golfjet744
6th Dec 2007, 23:45
i would have got out of my seat so that the FA could get in and attend to the Capt who is unconscious on the floor of the flight deck.

hang on. now that i think about it captaintunedog777 is right. its much less risky to leave the capt unconcious on the floor. declare an emergency. go into guam single pilot in middle of the night with your eyeballs hanging out of your head. while the capt swollows his tounge and starts fitting on the floor next to you. :rolleyes:

Just hope for captaintunedog777 sake the if he is ever lying on the floor unconcious that his fellow crew member doesnt have the same attitude as him. :ugh:

speeeedy
7th Dec 2007, 00:15
Captaintunedog 777, I have never, ever had an autopilot just trip off in cruise, and that is in 11000 hours. Not ONCE.

Even in the one in a million chance that it did, aeroplanes don't just flip upside down instantly, so again, very little chance of an uncontrollable aircraft state even in the incredibly unlikely event of the A/P tripping off.

So to say the aircraft is at risk during this very BRIEF time period is exaggeration not even worthy of a gutter journalist.

There was a very real chance that this guy was dying, and you would just sit there because you are scared the Autopilot might trip off, which even if it did would take you about 3 seconds to get back to your seat in which time the aircraft might have rolled 5 degrees or climbed 50 feet.

Thank god I don't have to fly with you, with your demonstrated inability to think outside the square it would clearly be an experience not worth having.

ad-astra
7th Dec 2007, 00:28
777Captaintunedog

Perhaps it is time to take a wee breath and realize that there maybe more experienced and more lateral thinking pilots out there than you who sits on his high horse.

Perhaps in YOUR wide body aircraft that YOU command you can reach around the entire cockpit.

I'd suggest that if and when you get to visit a cockpit you may regret the meaningless drivel that you exposť.

Grow up!

toolowtoofast
7th Dec 2007, 00:41
maybe 777ctd has plenty of experience in the widebody reach-around.......

captaintunedog777
7th Dec 2007, 03:23
Ok even with my limited 10000 plus hours I know an A/P just does not trip off. Howwever since you clowns are missing the point I do not wish to engage in a slinging match. I will say it again. The seat was vacated hence exposing the pax and crew to a risk. Push the bloody door into the caps head. Worse he will get is a few bruises and might even knock some sense into him.


Your seat was vacated with 250 souls on board!!!

Keg
7th Dec 2007, 03:32
So it appears that we're all agreed then. Captaintunedog777 is one (or more) of three things:

1. A dill who didn't read the report properly, jumped onto the forum half cooked to hook into the F/O for making what appears to be the right call, or
2. A double dill who having realised he was a dill at point 1 but doesn't have the guts to admit it, or,
3. A dill who has either did read the report properly or has now read it and still feels that it's a huge risk to leave the controls unattended in cruise for a period of less than 30 seconds so that you can let the F/A into the flight deck to attend to an unconscious crew member who is actually blocking the door that allows said crew members in.

Choose your medicine Captain. :E

As for pushing the door into the captain in order to budge him. You're kidding aren't you? It's a virtually impossible proposition. On the one hand is the extremelly remote 'risk' associated with vacating the seat for a short period of time compared with the virtually guaranteed risk of significant physical injury to an already unconscious person.

With the greatest of respect your assessment of the relative risks and the priorities you arrive at doesn't seem to tie in with your 10K hours of experience! :eek:

Jabawocky
7th Dec 2007, 03:57
Well if CASA throw him before the courts and QF sack him.....then we might see your side of the coin.

There is a bigger risk of two fully fit crew falling asleep than the few seconds the F/O jumps up to help for a few seconds.

Life is full of risks, its how we deal with them!:ugh:

J:ugh:

HotDog
7th Dec 2007, 04:38
More than likely a Microsoft 777 captain. Father forgive him for he knows not what he is talking about.:suspect:

oil additive
7th Dec 2007, 05:04
You drivers make me laugh:O

The F/O did what 99.99% of humans would have done, helped their fellow man. I'm sure he did a quick risk analysis before jumping out of his seat for a few seconds and found it to be a perfectly acceptable decision.

Good on ya mate...you saved your Captain, got the aircraft safely to Cairns and hopefully got the girl as well :D

ad-astra
7th Dec 2007, 05:07
Keg you forgot # 4

4 A ten thousand hour wonder with the SAME HOUR 10000 times!

Possibly explains a lot!

GANKER
7th Dec 2007, 05:09
I have had some of the worst gastro in the world and I can honestly say i have never passed out looking lifeless at the cieling!Squirting both ends yes! sounds like alittle to much Saki in Nagoya to me!

whatdouknow
7th Dec 2007, 05:21
Ah you guys are fun, so good to read all of the gossip, so many different walks of 'life' too.

Good job I'm not a pilot because if I was and I collapsed, or slept, or fell over after too much chinese wine I may be left for dead whilst you argued about wether to have an inquiry. :rolleyes:

Good fun though and please carry on. :uhoh:

whatdouknow
7th Dec 2007, 05:24
Squirting both ends, after airline food. Too true.

Although at least the pilots get the best choice, not like us plebs in cattle. :sad:

Keg
7th Dec 2007, 05:28
whatdouknow, it depends on what rank you are on the flight deck! Sometimes the junior S/O gets to choice between 'fish' and 'fish'. :E

whatdouknow
7th Dec 2007, 05:52
I suppose things could be worse, not sure how but something that doesn'y remotely resemble a food group is what the cattle get fed.

Although the Crownies in Business normally makes up for it.

speeeedy
7th Dec 2007, 06:50
Whatdouknow:

Good job I'm not a pilot because if I was and I collapsed, or slept, or fell over after too much chinese wine I may be left for dead whilst you argued about wether to have an inquiry.

Point of order: :=

Most here, with one very notable exception, are saying the F/O did the right thing, so there will be no leaving anyone for dead from the real pilots. :) :)

Whathisname777 is probably a Flight Sim pilot, if he collapses he can call his mummy to the bedroom (I hope his personalised embroided gaming chair is not near the door).

SmokingHole
7th Dec 2007, 06:56
Push the bloody door into the caps head.

That's the go! What was initially a severe bout of gastro ends with spinal injuries!

Tool:ugh:

Ron & Edna Johns
7th Dec 2007, 07:10
Whatshisname777 and 10,000 hrs..... yeah, right :hmm:. Any professional pilot with 10,000 hrs would have done EXACTLY the same thing as the F/O. Any professional pilot would know damn well the minute risk of having both seats briefly empty. The chances of this double (triple?) failure event: (a) Captain incapacitated + (b) F/O vacating seat and assisting him and (c) autopilot disengaging? Probably about 1/100,000,000....

Definitely a higher risk of being killed via other more routine incidents/accidents or even being knocked over by a bus in the street.

And even if a/p did disengage? You'll hear "Whirr-whirr-whirr-whirr". A/C would continue flying, believe it or not, gosh probably even straight and level.... :rolleyes: A 767 is hardly going to immediately flip on its back and spiral in (and yes, I have 4000 hours on B767, so I do know the aircraft). Nevertheless the F/O would immediately return to seat and re-establish normal config. Big deal!

A professional pilot would know all this and would handle the problem the same way. I do not believe people like you, Captaintunedog777, are really professional pilots; just wind-up merchants. And should I be wrong, should you really be an airline pilot, a real one, not an MS one, then crikey..... I just hope you're not a Captain because your GRADEing is seriously flawed!

Tempo
7th Dec 2007, 08:01
Quite a logical response R&E Jones....maybe oldmate77710000hrs can think about what you have said and swallow some pride.

Capt Fathom
7th Dec 2007, 11:34
It must be after 8:30pm!

whatdouknow has been sent to bed! :E

whatdouknow
7th Dec 2007, 12:50
:p Not sent to bed and I agree with speedy, the F/O did the right thing and if the truth came into it and we were not pressurized, the door could have been opened and the excess cargo could have been ejected.

just joking. :8

As for the sent to bed, there is so much I could say but I couldn't fathom how to!!

:p

Towering Q
8th Dec 2007, 02:28
I think some of you are being a bit harsh on Captaitunedog777, I would go a step further and point out that it was dangerous for the F/O to leave his seat because he would not be able to see an aircraft approaching from the opposite direction and would then be unable to take evasive action.

And don't talk to me about TCAS, with my 20 000hrs on Britten Norman Trislanders I know that nothing beats the Mark 1 eyeball.

CaptCloudbuster
8th Dec 2007, 04:39
captaintunedog777 Ok even with my limited 10000 plus hours I know an A/P just does not trip off

Actually, I can assure you all in my experience on the 767 on more than a few occasions the A/P has in fact "tripped off".

Not a big deal though:rolleyes:

Ron & Edna Johns
8th Dec 2007, 06:18
Towering Q: For pete's sake: You clearly have never flown Japan-Australia southbound at night. There is f-all opposite direction traffic. What traffic there is is at a different Flight Level (ATC are a bit funny, you see, about making sure aircraft going head-to-head are at different levels).

So again, triple failure required: (a) collapsed pilot + (b) other seat vacated + (c) opposite traffic at wrong FL.

For unknowledgeable people to openly assert that "it was dangerous" is simply offensive. Offensive because any pilot worth his salt would take all pertinent info into account before vacating his seat. Of course he wouldn't get out of his seat if there was anything to suggest it was dangerous at that instant; eg, opposite direction TCAS traffic 2000' above and I would certainly delay getting up.

The amount of crap floating around here is just another example of how command authority in aviation has been abrogated and why aviation is in such trouble these days. Every decision a pilot makes is potentially criticised and analysed to death on the internet by armchair experts. It doesn't matter if 99% of what they say is complete crap, sometimes the shit sticks. How do you think the F/O would feel if he was aware of the criticism of his actions on the internet? Despite being praised by the company, he just might hesitate next time something goes awry, cognisant of the bagging he got on the www! Is that what you fools want?

Give it a rest, people. Stop telling professional pilots how to do their job.

whatdouknow
8th Dec 2007, 06:47
I for one wasn't mentioning anything close to telling someone how to do their job, as someone who is not a pilot I could never do that.

Just adding to the banter... :rolleyes:

Please relax and take the thread for what it is worth, as you said some things on the net are crap. Believe everything you read and you become a fool as you put it. As for the crap floating around here affecting aviation... wtf?

As for being praised by the company, why? Did profits go up.

HotDog
8th Dec 2007, 07:05
And don't talk to me about TCAS, with my 20 000hrs on Britten Norman Trislanders I know that nothing beats the Mark 1 eyeball.
Oh my dear God:sad: Your mark 1 eyball would need to see opposite traffic on a collision course 2NM to avoid it. Wish my eyesight was that good, especially at night. And as cloudbuster rightly points out, if the autopilots trip off no big deal, aircraft is in trim and will happily fly on straight and level. How long do you have to be out of your seat to open the flight deck door?

ABX
8th Dec 2007, 07:14
toolowtoofast,

maybe 777ctd has plenty of experience in the widebody reach-around...


Very, very nasty mate.:E:}

maui
8th Dec 2007, 07:52
Chill people.
I think Towering Q was taking the pi55. 20,000 triSlanders hours indeed.
M

Towering Q
8th Dec 2007, 07:53
Towering Q: For pete's sake: You clearly have never flown Japan-Australia southbound at night.

Many times sir....in my A model C337.:cool:

Oh my dear God Your mark 1 eyball would need to see opposite traffic on a collision course 2NM to avoid it.

HotDog, you would not believe how many carrots I eat per day.

Obviously my poor attempt at humour is wasted here on Reporting Points, it's back to GA and Questions for me.

Just for the record, I think the F/O did a great job.:ok:

HotDog
8th Dec 2007, 08:27
Right, I did have an inkling that you were pulling leg, but wasn't quite sure.:}

SmokingHole
9th Dec 2007, 01:19
Ron & Edna Johns you swallowed the hook, line and the whole feckin fishing rod!

20000hrs in a Trilander! Your ears would be as keen as an ACDC roadie. Perhaps your resulting deafness resulted in enhanced vision TQ.:E

tinpis
9th Dec 2007, 04:26
If I remember the old Chansett rools were pilot strapped in and on OXY if the other one left the flight deck for a leak?

Only ever done in the company of grumpy checkers

LegallyBlonde
9th Dec 2007, 12:11
Microsoft, Playstation, X-Box, name your poison. Guys like 777 have been around since jokes about pilots with big watches and little d...s

LegallyBlonde
9th Dec 2007, 12:20
20,000 hours in a Trilander. What kind of penance would you call that.
(probably the same kind as flying the overnight 'chicken run' in those old Pigs)

tinpis
9th Dec 2007, 21:43
Nowt wrong with them PI66s young fella :=

Ron & Edna Johns
10th Dec 2007, 02:50
Ah, so this post has ended up in Jet Blast. Probably where it belongs now, since it's been hijacked by the trolls.

"swallowed the hook, line and the whole feckin fishing rod!" ? Hardly... As I stated earlier, I believe various people around here are not "... professional pilots, just wind-up merchants." In other words, jerks who enjoy making unknowlegeable and anonymous assertions or wisecracks, in a public forum, about professionals who are doing a difficult job under increasingly difficult conditions. And throw enough shit (I did acknowledge it was shit, remember) and some sticks. The media surf through here every day, you know. We have all seen newspaper reports recently quoting "a well known pilots internet forum".

This thread contains false, stupid and potentially libelous statements like:

Dragging someone from a seat is prob the greatest risk of knocking out the A/P. What would have happened if the Cap flipped out and knocked out the fuel master or A/P.

This is a case for serious revew of pilot incapacitation procedures.

Zero marks from me, chills up and down my spine and an investigation warranted over this incident.

I do not know the entire facts. But as soon as the a/c is unmanned then all are at risk.

The seat was vacated hence exposing the pax and crew to a risk. Push the bloody door into the caps head. Worse he will get is a few bruises and might even knock some sense into him.

I would go a step further and point out that it was dangerous for the F/O to leave his seat because he would not be able to see an aircraft approaching from the opposite direction and would then be unable to take evasive action.


Whether they are in jest or not, many of these statements are just disgraceful in a public forum. I happen to know the F/O involved - he is the consummate professional. So frankly someone needs to stand up to you trolls and take you to task - for making stupid, ignorant comments and jokes that you would never have the courage to do under your actual name.

Nothing more to do here - my work is done! Banished to Jet Blast - away from where the professionals read. Excellent.

Atlas Shrugged
10th Dec 2007, 03:08
No :mad: dead = good outcome

:D

Towering Q
10th Dec 2007, 09:09
R & E Johns, you would be one hell of a fun guy to spend 8 hours on the flight deck with. :yuk:

Nothing more to do here - my work is done! Banished to Jet Blast - away from where the professionals read. Excellent.

Order has been restored to this unpredictable, unprofessional world.:rolleyes:

SmokingHole
10th Dec 2007, 13:05
Banished to Jet Blast - away from where the professionals read. Excellent

You still managed to find it though! fecking Tool:ugh:

Face it mate, someone took the piss, you drank it and you now look like a cranky old fool.

Lighten up....it's a rumour network.
The media surf through here every day
Oh dear, you ate their bullshit too! Poor fool

HotDog
11th Dec 2007, 12:03
SmokingHole (ass?) What a charming and intelligent reply! I don't suppose you have ever been sucked in? No, you are far to clever for that.

Cessna Master Beta
11th Dec 2007, 12:09
SmokingHole is too smart to be fooled as he's a Banana Bender and we all know there intelect ....how do they spell beer ? Thats right XXXX :}

SmokingHole
12th Dec 2007, 07:57
he's a Banana Bender and we all know there intelect

Surely you mean their intellect:E

Try and keep up mate!

Towering Q
12th Dec 2007, 21:59
Cessna....I know who you are!

You and CiscoDisco are nothing but a pair of trolls.....so..welcome to Pprune and stick with Jetblast for now. It will be many years before you are professional enough to wander over to D & G Reporting Points.:{

willnotcomply
27th Dec 2007, 06:29
Jet intact, punters intact, mission complete. Pat on back for the F/O! End of story.

Lon More
27th Dec 2007, 17:34
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools." **

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/runaway!.gif


** Douglas Bader