Biz jet compared to the airlines.

[Mooneyboy]

Was wondering if anyone could outline the major differences between Coporate Business Jet aviation and the airlines. I'm a basic fATPL and having a good understanding of the airlines but would like to increase my knowledge of what exactly is required of a FO in a business jet operation. Do corporate jets follow strictly to SOP's? I did read a great thread about this a few months ago but I have done a search and can't find it anymore.

Lastly does anyone know anything about CTC Aviation Jet Services?

Any help much appreciated.

Best regards,

Mooneyboy:ok:

[bilderberger]

"Was wondering if anyone could outline the major differences between Coporate Business Jet aviation and the airlines".

Yeah Mooney boy it's simple..........When an airliner lands @ LHR or MAN & the toilet is full, all the crew do is order a toilet service.
When a Biz Jet lands @ NEA Man or TAG FAB who do you think empties the potty (after some so called celeb has filled it up).......
P.S It'S NOT THE GUY WITH THE FOUR BARS.

[Flintstone]

bilderberger, you're right. It's not the guy with the four bars.

It's the guy that drives the honey truck.

[Jetwhine]

I made the switch from the airlines here in the U.S. in the early 90s after the carrier I flew for - the original Midway Airlines (http://www.answers.com/topic/midway-airlines-corporation?cat=biz-fin) - went bust. In the past 17 years, I've managed a few more type ratings and flying a variety of airplanes, Hawker 800s, Citation 2 and 3, Falcon 50, 900 and an Embraer Legacy. The equipment is truly awe inspiring.

What makes biz av different is that you'll seldom know for certain where you are headed each trip until a few days before. You might know what days off you have, but little more. Some people hate not knowing where they'll end up at night.

Business aviation pilots are also much more involved in making the trip come together, from making certain the aircraft is pulled out of the hangar on time, is properly fueled, has the catering on board for all and more.

With no dispatcher, biz av pilots check the weather, plan the route, the alternates and make the go-no go decisions in the air.

Most of all, biz av pilots are VERY involved with the folks in the cabin unlike the airlines. If you are not a people person, the kind of pilot who is willing to strike up a conversation with a passenger when they arrive or while enroute, you might want to stick with the airlines ... or even cargo where you can shut the door. Most business airplanes fly with the cockpit door open because they know their passengers well and often see the same faces again and again.

BTW, my FedEx buddies tell me the best part of flying there is that packages never complain.

Rob Mark

[blablablafly]

You have a potty?? :E

[1Bingo]

Concur with Jetwhine. I've done both airline and biz jet, and much prefer the latter.

Granted, SOP is required for airline so that any two guys (gals) can meet on the flight deck and perform their roles without question. However, I found their was little room left for decision or judgement as the company does that for you. After being handed the release, mission was to get from A to B on time if able.

I now fly private biz jet and much appreciate the opportunity to exercise judgement, make decisions, and do more of the pilot ****. As jetwhine said, we don't fly to a monthly schedule and typically know the itinerary about a week out. I also like the diversity in routing, and there is no routine.

I can now go to my grave knowing that airline is not for me and grateful for the opportunity to discover that firsthand.

Good luck with you decision.

1 Bingo

[Flintstone]

^^^^^ What he said :O


Bingo. You have the lobster, I'll have the filet mignon. Pass 'The Times' would you? Mind if I spoil the crossword?

At least we don't have to listen to a recorded announcement flogging scratchcards a la Ryanair.

[Jetwhine]

Following up to what 1bingo posted here, the topic of cockpit personalities is seldom discussed.

In corporate flying and airline, SOPs or not, I have found that any pilot needs to be ready to cope (fit in) with a cast of characters. Some are simply the best people you'll ever want to meet, others quiet and still others are complete nutjobs.

One guy I was flying co-captain with almost lost us both our certificates because of an incredibly arrogant attitude.

If you ask real nice, I might even gather you all around the watercooler here and tell that story, as long as you promise not to laugh at how stupid I was then.

Rob

[Sotrax]

jetwhine, now you made me all curious :)
would love to hear that story...

[ssg]

See my thread under GA pilots only...

Do you like women?

[Duck Rogers]

Jetwhine had better tell that story or I'll click on the 'ban' button;)

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I am pretty flexiable person so not knowing routes early in advance doesn't bother me at all. I don't have a partner or kids to worry about so nights away aren't an issue either. I imagine you could fly to some very varied destinations with corporate so that must make things interesting.

Another question leading on from this, does flying for a corporate jet company which holds an AOC make a big difference to flying hours, actual flying procedures and job stability compared to non AOC operators?


Jetwhine would be very interested to hear your story, I'm sure it can help in my understanding of the Biz Jet world;)

Regards,

MB

[Jetwhine]

Thank goodness Sotrax asked.

OK, here we go. I'm a right seat co-captain on this leg in a Citation 650 (http://www.aircraft-charter-world.com/jets/cit650.htm) out of San Jose California (KSJC). Now to be honest, the other co-captain and I had had a few scuffles before when he pulled the circuit breaker on the overspeed warning so we could fly faster.

I reported him to the chief pilot the second time he tried this and the man was obviously not happy about it. He told me pulling the breaker was no big deal because the Citation had plenty of safety margin left.

So we're taxiing out for take off at SJC when the captain's cell phone rings. The prudent thing would have been to pull off to one side of the ramp to take the call since it was the boss.

He didn't.

He thought he could move the power levers with his right hand, steer the tiller with his left and somehow still talk on the phone. It was a mess.

I tried to tell him as we neared the end of the runway that we hadn't even briefed the departure but he told me not to worry about it.

Tower clears us for takeoff and he's still on the cell. I'm waving at him and he turns off the phone and heads out to the runway. I finally decided it was VFR outside, so how much trouble could we get into without a briefing.

We took off southeast on a SID that required us to basically fly west and then back northeast over the airport before we could proceed east to Chicago.

To make this long tale short, we reached one of the transition radials and the captain asked me which way he was suppossed to turn. I thought he knew and grabbed the plate to look.

"Right I think," I said. He cranked the aircraft right. But honestly this departure was very confusing. In fact it no longer exists. "Wait," I said. "That should have been left," and he quickly banked back left, but it was too late.

ATC said, "Citation xxxx. Where are you going? You should be headed North. I have a phone number for you to call when you land."

All the way back to Chicago I refused to speak to this guy who I was certain had just cost me my license. Later I realized it was my fault too.

I did some very fancy talking with the ATC folks in San Jose when we landed a few hours later and I can only say if it hadn't been for a supervisor taking pitty on us both for being idiots, we'd both have a stike against our certificates.

The lesson? When you have trouble flying with someone, don't pretend it will all go away. It may not.

Rob

[Mooneyboy]

ssg you must have posted that while I'll was writing my last post. Yes just read your thread under 'GA Pilots only'. Interesting read makes me realise that maybe going to say Malaga and back for months on end could be a bit dull.

And yes I do like women, could this alter which industy I decide to go into? I hope the answer is going to be a plus point of Biz jets not negative!


Rgds

MB

[Jetwhine]

Uggg.. I did post it but it doesn't seem to be here.

Stand by ... I'll write all over again. I even had a photo in there too.

Rob

[Crosswind Limits]

Come on Jetwhine we're all waiting!!!;)

[Jetwhine]

OK ... Here's my second try.

I was co-captain on a Citation 650 (http://www.aircraft-charter-world.com/jets/cit650.htm) out of San Jose California - KSJC - one nice summer afternoon. Honestly though, the other pilot and I had been having a few rough spots with the most recent being him pulling the circuit breaker on the overspeed warning so we could go faster than the barber pole allowed.

I reported the guy to the boss the second time he tried that and he was obviously not real keen on flying with me after that. The boss tired to tell me I was making too much out of it and let it go. We all had to try to get along.

Taxiing out from SJC, the other guy - I'll call him Carl - is in the left seat on this leg. Carl's cell phone rings as we leave the ramp. The prudent thing would have been to oull off to the side and talk, especially since it was the chief pilot calling us.

Carl proceeded to keep taxiing out, working the power levers with his right hand, the steering tiller with his left and the phone somewhere in between.

I tried to tell him as we approached the runway that we needed to brief the departure procedure, but he waved me off. Tower clears us for takeoff and he pushed up the power levers as he puts the phone away. I figured he didn't seem to need any help, so I shut up.

We blasted off southeast bound. This particular SID required a turn west and then northeast over the airport before heading east to Chicago.

As we're climbing out and approached one of the transition radials Carl yells at me ... "Which way do I turn, north or south?"

Since I hadn't been paying that close attention, I grabbed for the chart to look.

"South I think," I responded so Carl cranks that Citation into a right turn.

Something made me go back and look at the plates again. "Oh wait, it should have been left." Now we crank it back left when ATC comes on the radio and says, "Citation xxxx, where are you going? You should be headed north. I have a phone number you'll need to call when you land."

We're doomed now. I can just see little pieces of the licenses I've worked all my life for disappearing right before my eyes. Carl and I refused to talk to each other all the way back and nearly busted an altitude because we were so mad at each other.

After landing, I talked to ATC in SJC on the phone. If it hadn't been for a kind TRACON supervisor who took pity on us for both being idiots, we would have both been in much deeper with the feds.

Long story short - when you have conflict in the cockpit, deal with it ... somehow, before someone gets hurt. I was lucky.

In fact, I swear I'm going to write a book called, "Stupid Pilot Stuff and How I lived to Talk About It."

Fly Safe.

Rob

[Jetwhine]

I just posted it again and it said it needed to go through the moderator.

[Duck Rogers]

Oh really? That's news to me. If you have a copy PM it to me and I'll see if I can work out what's happening.


Duck!!

[Jetwhine]

"Oh no," he says realizing he did not save a copy of the note. Could it have been too long? I write a blog for heaven's sake, I fly jets ... I should be able to do this! I'm really not making this up. It said it needed to be approved by the moderator.

I'm going to do this one more time and save a copy. Should I private e-mail you perhaps Duck?

Rob
Jetwhine.com (http://www.jetwhine.com)

[Duck Rogers]

Yup. Try that. I can probably cut and paste it into one of your own posts.


Duck!!

[Jetwhine]

That sure is odd. I'm typing the next one in Word ... after dinner though!

[JoeCo]

Hey Jetwhine,

I presume you are talking baout your cell phone story, which I scan see on the forum here twice. Link to picture included.

Tough situation to be in, not sure what the best course of action would be, perhaps take control, stop at the hold line and decline the takeoff clearance.

What boggles me is that there is enough information out there about the dumb things that people have done and the results, it doesnt make sense to me why people put so much pressure on themselves and the crew to save 2 minutes?!

Well, thankfully there are sympathetic supervisors out there! ;-)

[Duck Rogers]

Hmmm, I thought maybe Jetwhine had another story for us and was trying to post that.

JW, you have mail.

[Jetwhine]

Oh I have plenty of stories. I still want to know where this one was hiding all that time. It must have eeked through the system somewhere I guess.

So how about someone else telling us about some really dumb thing they've done ... then I'll think of something else.

Seriously though, what contributed to the problem with the Citation operation I flew at was that the chief pilot was in his first management job and spent an enormous amount of time trying to please the folks in the back seat.

When it came to the employees - mechanics too - he really did expect us not to bother him with silly nonsense and just get on with it all.

Rob