Oz Based Cathay FO's

[Grivation]

Anyone contemplating jumping over to Cathay as an FO on the A330 based out of Australia should be aware that the salary has just been REDUCED from A$118,000 to A$92,000.

Pilot shortage? Cathay management don't seem to think so :=

[WaldoPepper]

Also, you probably won't see a command unless you move to HKG.

[Jet Man]

Reduction in salary for FOs already employed or reduction for new pilots taking the job?

[Grivation]

New pilots from 1/1/08.
Less money than a Virgin, Jetstar or Tiger B737/A320 FO to fly longhaul on an A330/340.

[Ralph the Bong]

Has Tiger released pay rates for A330 pilots?

[Harbour Dweller]

From Jan 2008 any new Australian based First Officer's starting salary will be A$92 000.

Below are the minimum requirements for Direct entry FO at CX, DJ & J*

*QF is not included as there are no Direct entry FO positions

Cathay Pacific

A minimum of 1000 hours in one of the following categories:

Airline Jet Transport
Command Turbo Prop (MAUW greater than 20,000 Kgs)
High Performance Military Jet
Corporate Jet CommandVirgin Blue

Total Flying Time - 1000 hours (at least 500 hrs Multi Engine)Jetstar

Minimum 2000 hours total flying total time of which 500 may be helicopter;
500 hours Pilot in Command or First Officer on Multi-Engine Aircraft; and
250 hours Pilot in Command of which 150 may be ICUSSo Cathay have the highest minimum experience requirements yet as of 2008 will offer very similar pay as Jetstar & VirginBlue (assuming Level 1).

Just who does Cathay think they are going to attract?

[Aussie]

Some how they still manage to attract them!

[PCFlyer]

Some how they still manage to attract them!

Well lets wait and see post Jan 2008 ...

Would you apply ???

For my vote ...
$118,000 = :ok:
$92,000 = :=

[Lord Flashhart]

I'd say Cathay wants its pilots in Honkas. I know guys who have knocked back commands to stay in Oz, clearly not ideal outcome for CX.

[WaldoPepper]

I think the opposite is true. It costs CX a heap of money to have expats in HKG. They have to pay housing, schooling, medical. None of which is payed for on the base.

CX just think it's still an employers market. Typical CX...only a few years behind the 8-ball!

[HughFlungPoo]

Wake up.

It's 92 plus allowances plus 15.5% super. This is probably better than Jetstar starting wage, and nearly better than Virgin.

Something like this
Year 1 92
Year 2 94
Year 3 96
then in year 4 it jumps to 120 odd.

So at the year 4 mark you'll outstrip them all.

Furthermore you're looking at a command spot in about 8 years in one of the largest growing fleets in Asia.

[Wine Glass]

Mmmmm....lets have a closer look at what you claim.
It isn't 8 years to command. Right now it is a little above that - and that is without the incoming influence of a change from retirement age 55 to RA65. A 10 year stay of execution for the seniors is going to do wonders for upgrade times.:hmm: Plenty of discussion and number crunching on the Fragrant Harbour site about the actual impact. The consensus seems to be command in the 13-14 year time frame IF expansion keeps it's current pace. So, 8 years is a complete furphy. If you work in HK you would know that, or you are being disingenuous.
Secondly, you have to compare apples to apples. If you want to talk about time to command, are you talking about in Australia? If someone takes a DEFO spot in Oz, are they prepared to move to HK to take the command (in 13 years)? That would entail commuting or dragging their family up, which introduces a raft of considerations that don't have to be contemplated if you are going to stay in Oz. Pollution (unbelieveable and getting worse), schooling (good luck in getting your primary school/high school aged kids in anywhere decent) etc. Because there will be no command slots in Australia. So...if you are not prepared to eventually move in XX years when you are probably very settled in your Oz life, when can you expect to get a Oz command? Given the limited slots, RA65 to reduce turnover and many, many, many people ahead in seniority who will be bidding for slots I think a newbie now would be very lucky to ever see one.
Lets keep comparing. Yes, the pay goes up at the four year point, so you are now overhauling a VB pilot who joined the same day (which is only fair if you fly something bigger and had higher entry requirements to begin with). And the pay will incrementally increase as well. But - what's the upgrade time in VB? Right now I believe it is around 5 years? So, the DEFO just overtook his VB mate in the $ stakes, then a year later his mate gets his command (caveat - assuming B737) and leaves his DEFO mate in the dust again.
Food for thought. Not trying to tell people how to make their decisions, but wish to add some clarity and actual considerations to the mix.

[stevie g]

It might be that Cathay's cost base is rising as I think the HKD is pegged to the USD and the AUD has increase by a good percentage in the last year or two ...... so going back to 92K may actually still be an equivalnet amount of HKD ....

Thats no help if you live in the land of Oz!!

[Keg]

Four years to $120K and thirteen years to command? The pay is better along the way in QF and they too are running at 13 years to command.....and that could actually reduce by a few years over the next 3-5 years.

[WaldoPepper]

In addition to what Wineglass said...

Currently the retirement age in HKG is 55. On the base in AUS it will be 65. The way the COS works is that once you reach 55 in HKG, you are forced to retire.

The only way to keep working past 55, is if you:

1. Become a check & trainer or
2. Take a base out of HKG or
3. Transfer to the freighter fleet.

So to make command slots worse in AUS, as all the senior guys get to 55, the bases will become flooded (assuming they want to keep working). As a junior member, I don't see there being much hope of getting a command slot on a base at all.

[HughFlungPoo]

Time to command.

Firstly we're all crystal balling some issues. Yes I accept the retirement age issue may have an impact, but no one really knows for sure - it's all speculation. Currently Cathay commands are somewhere between 8-10yrs. How much or if indeed they will blow out is open to conjecture. Now that said, even if it's out to 13 years, that brings it into line with Qantas.

Yes, if you want a command you will have to take a HKG base, but as has been highlighted, you can commute. No it's not easy or desirable, but quite achievable.

In fact at least you can commute with Cathay.

Now let's compare apples with apples.........

Virgin or Jetstar debatably a much higher work rate than Cathay
Virgin or Jetstar extremely difficult to commute
Virgin or Jetstar lower starting wages.

If we're viewing things over the longer term.....

A Cathay pilot starts with reasonably higher wages, get's overtaken when their Virgin Counterpart achieves command (crystal ball it) at the 6 year mark. For the next 7 years they are on a touch lower, but at the 13 year mark they overtake their Virgin buddy. For the next 10-20 years they are on a much better pay packet. In the long run they will make more money, while liviing in Aus (which ever City they want), doing less work. I will admit the only down side here is the commuting - but it is workable.

Can I say wake-up again, or is that inflammatory.....yeah I know it is......sorry

[Team America]

Can anyone post what a QF 330 driver is on? CX should be paying that.

$92-120K + is an insult to the industry.

Aside from a free A330 endo why would you take it?

Would be better off $$$wise with the QF S/O to F/O road.

[OhSpareMe]

As a QF A330 FO I pulled in slightly over 162K last year (not including superannuation).

And that, IMHO, is what it is worth to do the job.:ok:

[DUXNUTZ]

What do the S/O's get?

[Bendo]

What are V Australia offering their FOs?

[SkyScanner]

What do the S/O's get?

330 S/O $70-120K
744 S/O $80-180K (have heard one S/O hit 195K but cannot confirm)

All depends on how long you have been in and where you fly.

[FlexibleResponse]

As a QF A330 FO I pulled in slightly over 162K last year (not including superannuation).

And that, IMHO, is what it is worth to do the job.

...and IMHO, that's less than barely sufficient!

[mustafagander]

Skyscanner, a B744 S/O making better than 160K has got to be the local whore who flys anytime called with no personal life. What about 100/30 and 900/365?

I know quite a few near the top of the bidding who enjoy life and make around $150. I'd think that's about it if you want a life. I must say, however, that it is no bad thing to be able to fly your butt off when you have a target of dollars to make. I don't mean your first million, but the odd emergency.

[OhSpareMe]

So what, in your opinion, is barely sufficient?
The point I was trying to make is that 160K is a reasonable take for someone flying long haul ops - in my opinion. This is not a figure for doing 800-900hrs stick per annum.
I should also add that my figures are for someone rotating between pattern and blank line, like yours truly. Therefore my senior bretheren, who are permanent pattern line holders, would be doing better than 160K.

[Veruka Salt]

Very few (if any) QF -400 SOs are earning over $160K a year. As Mustafagander said, $150K is closer to the mark.

This figure includes divisor pay/overtime, DTA and allowances. Therefore, to compare QF and CX pay objectively then perhaps housing allowance, 13mth pay, profit share (!) etc should be added to the CX base pay rates.

FYI the COS 99 base pay for a first yr Oz based FO is $118K but then adding hourly duty pay and super takes gross pay to about $145K. Meal allowances are additional to that, but are generally less than what QF pays.

[SkyScanner]

Don't shoot the messenger, I am just reporting what I know. Out of everyone on my course, (12) no one earned under $155K and we have only been in under 4 years (thus half way up the list). As for stick limits, a lot are up over 800 (around 15-20 every roster are stick limited 900/365) and still have plenty of time off.

[Keg]

Are you guys going off the pay slip (which includes all your allowances)?

I'm going to have to start thinking about the way I do my figures. Some people obviously include/exclude allowances, super, per diem, dta, whatever so I'm not sure we're ever comparing apples with apples.

[SkyScanner]

Are you guys going off the pay slip (which includes all your allowances)?
Yep.. top right figure.

[404 Titan]

SkyScanner

OK in which case we aren’t comparing Apples with Apples. What is the basic salary excluding all allowances, super etc. The CX salary which I admit is crap is the raw salary not fluffed up by allowance, hourly duty pay, over time, profit share and super.

[I'm Driving]

Skyscanner
For all pilots employed after around 2000 (approx), in QF, that figure also includes super ( and allowances) as they are in division 6. If you we're employed before that (as in Keg), you would be in division 3, where most of your super does not appear in that figure. If you've been in for less than 4 years, I'd suggeat you are in the first group. So as Keg says, it's not apples and apples.

[OhSpareMe]

OK, the basic salary is as follows.
You are paid:
either the credited hours for the bid period, or Min Guarantee whichever is greater.
Divisor credit hours for the Airbus are currently at 160hrs per bid period. Min Guarantee is 151 hrs per BP.
There are 6.5 bid periods in a year. As an example, using the Year 10 A330 FO hourly rate of $134.81 and working on the basis that you are a pattern line holder accruing 160 hrs per bid period this would see the following:
6.5 x 160 = 1040 hrs + 6 x Training days at 5.5hrs = 33 hrs.
Total 1073 hrs x 134.81 = $144, 651.

Add a further $3258 for Tech Crew Reimbursement (never been able to figure out what this is about - but I will gladly accept it anyway!)
Sub-Total $147,909.

Add another 18-20 K for DTA and meal allowances (which are largely tax free) you would come up with about 167K.

This does not include super, whether it be the Division 3 Defined Benefit Scheme (now closed to new entrants) or the Division 6 Contribution Scheme. Superannuation salary is based on 132 hrs per BP.

Now I stress that these are credit hours - not stick hours. We get a minimum daily credit of 5hrs30mins for each day at work Example: Flight to Brisbane - overnight - home to Sydney is 11 hrs pay even if stick time is about 3 hrs.
Raise the divisor = more hours = more pay. A330 is on 160 hr division whereas 744 usually on 175hrs and sometimes greater.

The above does not include Overtime which starts accruing after 12 hrs duty time (very significant on the 744 - a SYD-LAX-SYD sector usually adds 8hrs OT). Not a lot of OT on the Bus, usually only on the Mumbai flights and the soon to be commenced AKL-LAX-AKL.

Want to know about 744 SO's? 3 year rate (as an example) is $89.25. Apply that to a divisor of 175 hrs per BP, add the 18-20K in allowances and probably around 6-8 in OT.

Want to know about A330 SO's? 3 year rate is $84.96. Use 160 hrs per BP as a guid. Allowances similar. Not much OT to add.

The difficulty is that the we are not paid a straight salary. We are paid wages for hours worked. Therefore it can be difficult to do a straight comparison with another carrier.

Clear?

[Going Boeing]

Why do you include allowances as if they are income? They are to pay for meals whilst in a slip port. By saying that they are income, you are inviting the ATO to look at finding further ways to tax them.

Originally, airline allowances in Oz weren't taxed but too many people included them in their income when they went to the bank for a loan. The ATO got wind of this and wanted to fully tax the allowances. Strong lobbying by AIPA and QF Flight Ops management resulted in the taxation of allowances being tied to Federal Public Service rates.

[Transition Layer]

They are to pay for meals whilst in a slip port.

Oh **** is that what it's for?

I knew I was doing something wrong...

[I'm Driving]

OhSpareMe
Good run down, only thing is the super. Just as a clarification, For division 3 I think you'll find it's based on 170 hours. Div 1 and 2 are based on 132 hours (all in longhaul, shorthaul is based on 59 stick hours). Now What in Total does the Cathay guy get? Inclusive of Super, allowances etc.... Sound almost the same to me, but it's on day one. As mentioned above, OhSpareMe's Calculations are on 10th year.

[drshmoo]

A330 FO getting paid 90K in Australia. Thats disgracefull..... Thats.. thas like J* wages. Thats what most A330 S/O start on at QF....... Wake up


TL aren't allowences for buying flash pairs of sunnies for needy tarts

[OhSpareMe]

Why do you include allowances as if they are income? They are to pay for meals whilst in a slip port. By saying that they are income, you are inviting the ATO to look at finding further ways to tax them.

Well, I don't really. I just included them to show what the package is and what is often quoted from the Year to Date figure on our payslips.

The allowances include DTA which is used for incidentals other than food. (laundry, phone calls, etc)

Spending allowances on meals in slip ports? Hardly. Mine usually get wasted on the liquid variety! This is why I am often fanging for something to eat when I get on the jet. Don't ever get between me and crew snacks.

I'm Driving - thanks for the super clarification. I based this on the 10 year scale because, as you know, you can't direct entry into an FO slot in QF. For interest, I started on the 8 year scale as a Bus FO.

So I wonder what would an equivalent 8 year FO on a CX A330 be on? (Sydney based that is).

I included the SO rates so people could have a go at ballparking the pay.
Yes, you would be better off in the pay department from Day One as a CX FO in comparison to a QF SO B744. But what about after that?

[Veruka Salt]

An 8th year CX Airbus F/O in Sydney is on a base of $143,268.00 (4th year Senior F/O pay. Correct me if I'm wrong Titan!).

From Jan 08 this figure goes up a few percent.

The additions to this (if you want to impress the bank manager and/or hosties :hmm:) are overtime, Hourly Duty Pay, meal + laundry allowances and 15.5% super.

[Cartmen]

How long do you have to be a SO in QF before getting an FO spot?

[Capt Kremin]

Depends on a lot of things. Most S/O's getting F/O slots NOW have about 4-5 years in the company.

If you believe the rumours, and there is some cause to do so, then any S/O JOINING now can probably look forward to a much shortened time to a window seat.

[I'm Driving]

New joiners are being told (in the check to line interview) that if they want it, they'll be waiting between 2 and 3 years to F/O.
Enjoy seeing the world, because your promotion will be to a domestic type, make the most of it.
But as always, believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see.