Random question

[u667gf]

I have £15k saved up for a house, but recently i have been thinking about going for my PPL, and then over the next few years working to get a commercial license! Looking at the various courses available im seeing that commercial licence and ATPL are completly different. Would i be able to get a job as a pilot without doing my ATPL? I am currently serving in the Navy on a tour of afghanistan and am split between spending the money on a house or gaining my PPL when i get home! Obviosly to do an ATPL i would have to quit my job which im very hesitant to do... but a commercial license i can manage over my leave periods! Any help would be apreciated...

Cheers

Chris

[Scorpion83]

Hey Chris

Once you've reached your CPL stage you are eligible for employment for most pilot jobs ranging from instructors, charter etc. To become an airline pilot I believe it is mandatory to have completed your ATPL theory subjects as well as have at least 500hrs of experience. You don't have to quit your job to do your ATPL, you can do the theory by correspondents, the rest of the flying is just experience, not actual flight training. Thats the case in Australia and I'm pretty sure it is the same in the UK. You chose an excellent time to become a pilot, plenty of opportunities out there right now!

[AlphaMale]

With 15k saved up that's a lot more than your PPL ;)

You could go to the states for a month and get your PPL/Night for around £5k/£6k then come home and study your ATPL (£3K) P/T while you work spend some more money on the hour building toward the CPL.

Money saved up during the ATPL's might get you through your CPL's so you'll just need £12k or so for an IR.

Good luck

[Life's a Beech]

Scorpion is mostly right, but looking from an Aussie perspective. 500 hours has no special relevance in Europe.

As a European, you want to start with the PPL (about 45 hours or so, £7000) then do ATPL ground school (allows you to do both CPL and instrument rating, required for most jobs, and allows you to fly high-performance and multi-crew aircraft, which CPL ground training does not) and build your hours up to 150, preferably with 100 hours P1 and a night rating, both required to hold the CPL/IR. Then take the CPL and IR courses, and if you want to fly multi-crew (airlines or bizjets) take an MCC course.

So it's PPL, followed by groundschool and hour building (no special order - I suggest you do a bit of flying before and finish off after ATPLs) followed by CPL and IR (again no special order).

[tinmouse]

J**us man. Buy your Home first! The Equity later on will pay for the PPL Training!! You’ll need an asset and a house over your head!! Buy your house first!!!!

[tescoapp]

u667gf

You seem to be in a bit of a muddle about the difference between Commercial and ATPL.

Everyone starts out with a CPL sometimes known as a blue book its the basic license which allows you to be payed as a pilot.

The ATPL is an upgrade which allows you to fly commercial multi crew aircraft as the captain.

Now there are 2 ways to get said comercial license.

1. A full time course which is about 60K-75k and you go from zero to hero in about 18 months

2. A modular course which builds up over a period of time to get you exactly the same license as in 1.

The ATPL bit which is confussing is that you require to have a set of theory exams passed and valid when applying for the upgrade which is why you sometimes see "frozen ATPL" used. Its actually bollox's there isn't such a thing its a CPL/IR with ATPL exam passes.

As your a serving member of the forces you have a few advantages over most folk your age.

The basic outline with very approx prices is as follows

Medical (think its about 400 quid these days)
PPL (3-4K)
Hour build (8K)
Ground school (4K)
CPL (5K)
IR (15K)
MCC (2K)

Various bits of kit and administration fees 1k.

First place to start is always the medical its done at Gatwick half a day getting looked at and its either a pass or fail.

Then do your PPL there are several service clubs out there who give very good rates and training to serving people. Or go to Florida and do it in 3 weeks but if I were you I would do it with the service club.

After that you can sign up for ATPL ground school, there are several about but the best are either Oxford or Bristol (and they are listed in no order if your an engineer use Oxford if you are an arty type use Bristol)

How long it takes you to finish these 14 exams depends on you.

While doing the exams you need to hour build up to 150 hours which you can do anyway you like either buying your own machine, going on holiday hour building or hiring.

After that you have the CPL/IR which I believe there is help available from the services as part of a demob package. (you will have to check that in the mil forum) It will take about 2 weeks for the CPL and 2-3 months for the IR depending on weather.

The MCC is an attendance course which is an expensive pain in the arse for 2 weeks you need it for most jobs that are multicrew.

So if I were you stuck out in theater I would buy a couple of PPL theory books (Airlaw, Human performance, Princples of Flight, Aircraft general) and get going with them and plan to visit the CAA when you get back for the medical. And in the mean time find out about what allowances you can get off the services and what services flying clubs are near you.

Make a cunning plan then go for it. I wouldn't bother with a house just now.

[tescoapp]

Just to add you need to plan

2* 3 weeks for the ground brush up courses and exams.

And although you can split your IR its not a good idea. Until launching yourself into the IR you should pretty much be able to stay working.

And at 22 you should be done and dusted by 25 which is still relatively young and because you have served in the Navy your CV will be streets ahead of most CV's of pilots of your age.

[Life's a Beech]

tescoapp

What you call the "full time course" is actually an integrated course. A modular course can also be taken full time.

You are confused about the time scales. Either course, modular or integrated, can be completed in about a year, if taken full time and the student works hard. 18 months or so is more common.

Where do you get your information about which are the "best" courses for different types of people? I would recommend from probably 5 different schools, not depending on engineering bent or artistic temperament, but on whether the person wished to take an attendance course or distance learning, whether fixed-wing or rotary. Your two would always be among my recommendations, but never my own choice. There are about 7 or 8 schools, none of which is bad.

The MCC is not a pain in the arse. It is great fun if you have a good instructor, and very useful training (even to me, now flying single-crew!).

2 weeks for the CPL and 2-3 months for the IR? Sorry but that is nonsense. The CPL (if taken before the IR, so 25 hours not 15) will take from 2-8 weeks, depending on competence, hard work and weather. The IR should take no longer than 6 weeks for a hard-working, capable student unless very unlucky with weather (a lot less reliant on good conditions!).

I recruit pilots, so I know a little about where they all come from. Of course I also went through the system, and looked at a few options, and as an instructor talked my PPL students with such ambitions through choices for the next stage, and sometimes had feedback after they had finished.

Please don't confuse the poor bloke any more with misapprehensions!

[Re-Heat]

You need to take a look at discounted military training that might be available to you - particularly through mil flying clubs before you leave the Navy

[tescoapp]

What you call the "full time course" is actually an integrated course. A modular course can also be taken full time.

yes it can but not when your sitting in a boat. The chap was getting confused with the marketing spin thinking you got a different license.

You are confused about the time scales. Either course, modular or integrated, can be completed in about a year, if taken full time and the student works hard. 18 months or so is more common.

Yes which is why I said 18 months. None of the intergrated schools are shifting them through in 12 months mainly due to knackard old fleets which keep going tech and a shortage of instructors. 14 is very lucky.

Where do you get your information about which are the "best" courses for different types of people? I would recommend from probably 5 different schools, not depending on engineering bent or artistic temperament, but on whether the person wished to take an attendance course or distance learning, whether fixed-wing or rotary. Your two would always be among my recommendations, but never my own choice. There are about 7 or 8 schools, none of which is bad.

No you missed the point I was pointing out the nature of the notes from the 2 schools. OAT is more suited to engineers where one diagram means a thousand words. And BGS where a thousand words covers WTF does that mean when confronted with a diagram. I have tutored using both sets of notes and they definately suit different types of brains. Each have thier strong subjects IMHO they both have the best notes for distance learning. And it was distance learning I was discussing. I have seen some other sets of notes Glasgow,Cabair,Atlantic etc although good enough just arn't as good.

The MCC is not a pain in the arse. It is great fun if you have a good instructor, and very useful training (even to me, now flying single-crew!).

A MCC linked with your intial type rating using company SOP's on the type you are going to fly would be of use. The current form has very limited use.
A good idea has been perverted by the training industry. You have to redo everything anyway so 2k for having great fun in a sim sums it up nicely.

2 weeks for the CPL and 2-3 months for the IR? Sorry but that is nonsense. The CPL (if taken before the IR, so 25 hours not 15) will take from 2-8 weeks, depending on competence, hard work and weather. The IR should take no longer than 6 weeks for a hard-working, capable student unless very unlucky with weather (a lot less reliant on good conditions!).

Its what the schools are quoting these days and the 2 weeks was the 15 hour course my mistake guess which way I did it. (use a twin for the CPL as well if you have done the IR saves mucking about doing PFL's and glide approaches) But all in they both workout that if you plan for 3 months you are going to be pretty close +- 2 weeks. BTW there is a 6 months waiting list for some schools!

I recruit pilots, so I know a little about where they all come from. Of course I also went through the system, and looked at a few options, and as an instructor talked my PPL students with such ambitions through choices for the next stage, and sometimes had feedback after they had finished.

The best way and time scales change continually. And the buggeration factor of aviation means if you have planned it, it proberly won't happen. I don't have a clue about intergrated trained as we don't employ any. But the last few FO's have taken a complete range of times for the IR of between 3 and 6 months due to wx and aircraft/instructors going tech and schools running to many students.

u667gf your proberly best finding some mil type who is doing what you want to do. As you can tell if you ask x number of pilots which is the "best way" you will get x+1 number of opinions. I don't have a clue about all the different allowances you can claim but some seem to be able to get a fair chunk of there training payed for. And the services flying clubs are seriously cheap compared to civi and will stand you in good standing for the CPL later on.

[Life's a Beech]

tesco

You are giving the confusing marketing spin! That is what description of the integrated as "full time" is, a false impression that modular is a part-time course which it need not be. The modular ground school can be fitted around other work if taken as a distance-learning course, although perhaps on the ship the time might not easily be available. That is the real difference, attendance or distance learning.

I know modular schools who could push through in well under 18 months without problem if the student is motivated, or else the student can take his money elsewhere! I don't employ integrated graduates, not suitable for this work, so no idea how they go. If the school is not getting any students through the IR training in 6 weeks then go elsewhere. There are plenty out there, and some refuse to take on too many students! Book early, while still completing the hour building.

I know the notes from both schools. Both are very good, but that is only one factor. Classroom is good in both, but I know others I would prefer. Having also used both sets of notes for explaining facts to pilots who had studied at the different schools I found no difference in the two as to what type of person the pilot is.

MCC is not repeated by most smaller airlines (i.e. ones that employ many low-hour pilots). You obviously looked at some of those with very thorough training programmes. Type is irrelevant, it should be a course of general principles. I suspect you went on a poor course, and did not learn what you should have.