Air NZ and Paraparaumu Airport

[Kiwiguy]

Owners of Paraparaumu Airport were knocked back in their proposals before a planning tribunal the other day to redevelop the airport with a large common user terminal for Bombardier Q300 flights to Auckland etc.

My question is where does this leave both the airport and Air NZ ?

Also Associated Aviation operated a twin Cessna service to Auckland once. What became of that service and was it a pressurised twin ?

[horserun]

Associated used a C421 on that run for number years (so yes was pressurised). I couldnt tell you how successful it was.

Poor old Paraparaumu airport! It will finish its days as a F**king shopping mall.

[pakeha-boy]

remoak,......mate,this is your turf....a comment or two if you please

[remoak]

Errr. alright then!

Not currently in NZ, but having had a few conversations with Mr Robinson, I can assure you that he doesn't give up that easily. The problem is that the local nimby brigade are quite noisy, and the new Mayor/Council would appear to be a little less sympathetic to his cause. The local tenants haven't been very helpful either, and the flying clubs seem intent on shooting themselves in their feet.

Hopefully Noel Robinson will prevail, because the alternative is 100 acres of houses and light industrial units.

I suspect the owners of the Otaki strip are making plans to provide an alternative, just in case PP does become a suburb...

[pakeha-boy]

remoak....forwarded that piece to the ol man in Raumati for verification.....he also agrees ......only his words were a little more "descriptive".....but all in all the same

[prospector]

Go back to the time of the original sale of the airport by the Government.
It would be an accurate description to say that the Aero Club, Flying Schools and associated engineering outfits were stabbed in the back during the course of the tender process. rather than "
"and the flying clubs seem intent on shooting themselves in their feet"
Mr Robinson may have lofty dreams about the future role of the airport, at this time it does not generate enough revenue to even provide any meaningfull maintenance, there is no way he will get a return on the millions invested to retain it as an airport, he is after all a property developer, not an airport operator.
The statements he makes about creating some 6,000 new jobs if he gets his way with the airport, many regard as pipe dream stuff, and with the traffic problems already occuring, such an increase in population would not be able to be supported by the present infrastructure. It would lead to traffic congestion problems of major proportions. Unless one stands to make money out of these deals why would the locals support a scheme that will have such an negative impact on their lifestyle???

[remoak]

The original sale had nothing to do with Noel Robinson. That was a stitch-up between the then-MP for Ohariu, the second-most-recent owner of the airport, and various elements of the KCDC. It was a classic example of the Conservative old boys network at it's finest. Sure, the tenants got screwed, but that is all ancient history now. It is what they are doing now that is important.

With Robinsons plan (the only viable plan, by the way), there has to be an offset between retaining the airport and developing parts of the airport that aren't needed for flight ops. That was obvious from the beginning.

What the flying clubs have done is attempt to mess up Mr Robinsons plans by arguing for the retention of the short runway, amongst other things. I can understand them not wanting to lose it, but the fact remains that it is little-used and unnecessary for 95% of the time. In all my years of flying out of PP, I probably only used it 5-10 times.

Issues like extra traffic are actually non-issues. The Western Link road will more than cater for any increase in traffic.

why would the locals support a scheme that will have such an negative impact on their lifestyle???Leaving aside for a moment the fact that most of the locals you refer to are thoroughly selfish individuals who would oppose anything that in any way impinged on their supposed rights to a particular lifestyle - despite the fact that they chose to live near an active airport - the fact is that if the Robinson plan fails, the airport will become a housing estate. If that happens, the resulting congestion and stress on the infrastructure will be many times greater than they would be if the airport was retained.

I'm no particular fan of Noel Robinson, but the fact remains that if he fails, the airport will be gone. I would rather have a smaller airport, than no airport at all.

The Aero Club doesn't get that, but then it is one of the most poorly run operations I have ever seen, so I'm not surprised.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your plan for retaining the airport and satisfying the NIMBYs at the same time...

[Kiwiguy]

The proposal to shift Rnwy 11/29 west wards to reduce the Helipro (Calibration Flight's) hanger to dust, just invites problems.


Leave 11/29 in place and if necessary knock down the hanger.


The Resource Management Act (RMA) allows you to continue current use. Shifting 11/29 westward shifts the approach path over residential areas which were never previously below the flightpath so instantly Noel Robinson gave himself a swag of new enemies.


Stick with the current 11/29


Create an industrial estate at the west side of 16/34.
Offer to pay for the gliding club to re-establish at Otaki. That solves a swag of issues.


If you want to be a successful developer then you have to be a problem solver... Not a maker.

[Kiwiguy]

Can someone tell me what years Associated used to fly the AKL-PPQ run and why it stopped please ?
Anyone know about the patronage ?
Air NZ are talking two Q300 flights per day.

[remoak]

How does moving 11/29 westwards put the flightpath over houses that were previously not affected? I haven't seen the plan, but moving a westerly runway further to the west won't do that.

I still think it is unnecessary. There are plenty of single coastal runways around the country, they seem to manage OK.

You can't establish an industrial estate on the western side of 16/34, that put it in amongst residential areas.

Associated operated the 421 for quite a few years from the mid '80s. They eventually replaced it with a J31 leased from Origin. The J31 lasted a bit less than a year, from memory. There were some operational problems, and it was never well advertised or marketed. I think it stopped in 92 or 93.

It would probably work well now, the catchment area is a lot bigger these days, and many people north of, say, Tawa would much rather drive to PP in the morning than struggle into Wellington through all the traffic. If it was marketed properly, it could work well.

[NZScion]

I have been following the developments at PPQ with interest. However, before Air NZ will be able to utilise it, there must be some improvements. 16/34 only recently received a long-overdue repaint, and there are still stones all over the place. The bar with regards to airport maintainance will need to be raised before a Q300 touches down there.

Another problem is traffic. The circuit is already congested at busy times, and I can only forsee this getting worse. If ANZ wish to operate from PP, there will need to be at least a UNICOM set up, if not a control service for the busy periods.

As for runway 11/29, don't shift it, don't close it, don't fix what isn't broken. It is good for light GA in westerlies, and anything bigger can still use 16/34 in everything but the worst crosswind conditions.

My 2c...

[celco]

AA used a couple of 402's back in the 80's before the 421's came on the scene and I think a 310. It was by all accounts a profitable operation. I used it a few times and from memory about 1.5 hrs, beat the hell out of the hours drive to Welly or even worse the 12 hours by train. I still remember Harry Jenkins letting us have the right seat, the only draw back was the passive smoking we had to endure, those were the days:):):)

[Kiwiguy]

Thanks for the update Remoak.

The shift of 11/29 results in the buldozing of the big Helipro hanger for a grass runway (presumably to satisfy the gliding fraternity).

Have a look at this link to the plan:

http://paraparaumuairport.co.nz/?page_id=3

Whether or not you think an industrial estate west of 16/34 is viable that is already in the plan.

Shifting 11/29 westwards does put multi-million dollar houses along the beach front under a new flightpath. That immediately causes conflict with the RMA.

Sticking with the existing 11/29 runway avoids this conflict.

As for just having a single runway PPQ gets significant coastal onshore breezes so that 11/29 is in effect the crosswind runway.

[Kiwiguy]

Hey celco.... Jenkin's smoking is legendary.

My mate owns ZK-CGI. He had a fuel leak in the cockpit, so he plackarded it with No Smoking.

Jenkins hopped in and smoked like a chimney amongst the avgas fumes. My buddy now refuses to have anything to do with Russell.

Anybody remember roughly when the Associated service to AKL ceased ?
Anybody know why ?

[slamer.]

About 1990 when Air NSN started their SA 227 service, PP-WU-AA-WU-WN. RI & RJ cut a deal (to boring to describe here) which saw AA operate PP-NS-PP and maybe some other destinations as well for a short time.

Think they may have started up again sometime after NSN pulled out for a while

[nex]

Ah now I see why I was confused... 11/29 moves south rather than west. Not a good idea. Thanks for the link, I'll study up on it.

I know about the onshore breezes (I've been flying out of PP for about 28 years, on and off). It is pretty unusual for the crosswind to get high enough to require 11/29... if it's that bad, most of the lighties are parked in the hangar. Seems to be a lot less flying these days.

I don't want to see the airport changed at all, other than by way of improvement, but the commercial reality is that change will inevitably happen. Locals have to make a choice between Mr Robinsons airport, or 1000 new houses and industrial units. Unless, of course, another billionaire comes along...

[Kiwiguy]

Thanks nex and slamer...

Noel Robinson still has to satisfy both the local community and planning tribunals. I wonder if that can be achieved without shunting the runway over ?

What if he attracted a Part 125 airline instead of Air NZ or in addition to...?

Would landing fees from increased frequency of flights go towards offsetting development costs ?

What if the proposed big terminal were at the eastern extremity of Kapiti Road (town end of 11/29) ?

That could free up that corner where the gliding club currently operate and they could be paid off to shift to Otaki.

Hey slamer so it was the politics of code share which killed off the PPQ-AKL service ?

Sounds like the load factors were quite good then ?

Air NZ propose a 50 seater northbound twice daily. Reckon they could fill that many seats based on the old days ?

[celco]

Kiwiguy........ I think it was part of the old mans checklist gear-up, flaps 0, light bunger use to crack me up but .. with a full load of pax not a worry

I don't remember the rego of the two 402's but I did come across their carcasses a few years back parked in a graveyard at magenta in noumea, still with the same livery, one green one blue.

I always wondered why they stopped the AKL thing there has to be a market for it with the right equipment, maybe it was the J31 that stuffed it who knows maybe some ex AA guys can give us the good oil

[Kiwiguy]

So if it got as far as Origin Pacific putting on a J31 then perhaps it was the retraction in routes and services when Qantas pulled the code share with Origin?

Remember origin were flying to Invercargill and Dunedin at one point, using everything from J31, J32, J41, Dash 8 and even the ATR-72-200. All that disappeared so then it was not the service, but rather Origin Pacific which spelled the end for AKL-PPQ ?

Dave Collier told me they were just three Jetstreams short of overwhelming Air NZ domestic services at their height... Interesting thought.

Wonder if those 402s were the same pair which hung out with Capital Aviation in the 70s at Wellington Aero Club ?

Maybe RJ decided that if they wouldn't allow smoking on NAC then he'd start his own airline ???

[tartare]

Heh, heh... been reading these posts with some amusement.
Did my PPL with Associated at Paraparaumu... RJ was chief instructor.
Tough old bastard... and he'd flagged the smoking by then, so was even grumpier... but also gave you a darn good slap if you did anything stupid... made you a very cautious and methodical pilot.

[Kiwiguy]

I'll let my mate, Steve Elliot know. That might raise a smile. He's grumpy too.

[Artificial Horizon]

I did my PPL and CPL with Russel and Peter at Associated Aviation and certainly they still had the AKL service on the 421 running then which would have been 1995/96, it stopped when Associated Aviation got involved with Origin and were then running one of the J31''s on the route, it all died a death not long after that as I think the 421 was profitable but the J31 wasn't.

[Kiwiguy]

Thanks Arty Horizon.... Were the Jetstream flights at useful times ?

[Artificial Horizon]

Seem to remember it being one out in the morning about 0700ish and would land back at NZPP at about 1930 in the evening, so just one up and one back to try and catch the businessman daytrippers.

[Kiwiguy]

Did you fly those flights Arty ?

[remoak]

I nearly flew those flights - was J32 rated at the time and AA were having serious training issues, so were looking to recruit outside their instructor pool. Came back from Europe for it, but by the time I did, it was all over. It never really had a chance as it was poorly advertised. If you can't find 17 people wanting to go from PP to AA, you just aren't trying.

BTW I now get the where the grass runway is supposed to go, as Nex said, south rather than west. It would be a pity to lose the old Cal Flight hangar, seems a waste, but then I don't think the cross runway is really necessary anyway.

If people keep objecting, they will get a housing estate. Watch what that does to the infrastructure and traffic... and the airport will be gone forever. Time to head for Otaki...

[Kiwiguy]

Same about the hanger... seems the gliding fraternity is screwed there anyway. Interesting thing is though that the planning tribunal is demanding that it be kept as a viable airport. That's one good thing but they're making it hard for Noel Robinson to get the return envisioned.


Why not put the new terminal where the hanger is and that way you keep both runways and get the industrial parks on both sides of 16/34 ?


So you reckon the PPQ-AKL route with Jetstreams just wasn't promoted properly ?


I had a wee check. It takes 35 minutes at a modest speed to drive from Haywards to PPQ. There's 38,000 population at Upper Hutt, 52,000 in the Porirua and Pautahanui basin, plus 45,000 up Kapiti way, leaving 179,000 in Wellington and some 50 odd thousand in Lower Hutt.

[Te_Kahu]

Conflict over whether plans for Paraparaumu town centre threaten the future viability of the town's airport has been singled out as the major issue affecting the proposed $450-million airport redevelopment.
Commissioners Paul Cavanagh, QC, who is the chairman, Stuart Kinnear and Roger Lane are hearing submissions to Paraparaumu Airport Holdings' application to allow redevelopment of 126 hectares of airport land.
The proposal includes a business park, retail outlets and upgrading the airfield, which would accommodate Air New Zealand plans for flights to Auckland and Christchurch using 50-seater turbo-prop aircraft.
Mr Cavanagh said Kapiti Coast District Council's decision to proceed with plan changes for the airport and town centre developments at the same time put the commissioners in a difficult position.
"Everyone recognises the airfield should be retained, but regional airfields cannot survive without the opportunities Paraparaumu Airport Holdings is now seeking.
"The question we are facing is how the airport can continue to survive as a strategic asset without undermining the town centre, or how the council's town centre development can go ahead without undermining the viability of the airport."
Coastlands Shoppingtown strongly opposes the airport company's application, which allows for 20,000 square metres of retail development.
Coastlands claimed that retail development at the airport would have a severe impact on the planned commercial-retail town centre.
Michael Copeland, a consulting economist for Coastlands, said plans for an airport retail and commercial development alongside Kapiti Rd potentially provided a competing town centre, undermining the role of the Paraparaumu town centre.
"Such retail development would have a severe negative impact on the district's commercial-retail centre, resulting in reduced shopper numbers in the retail core ... The concept of a vital, busy town centre would be unlikely to be fulfilled."
In response, Paraparaumu Airport Holdings director Noel Robinson said this week that he was prepared to withdraw previous plans for a supermarket at the site, and would reduce the maximum building height from 15 metres to 10m within 50 metres of a rural or residential zone, or alongside Kapiti Rd.
Michael Woods, a member of the Airport Coalition, which opposes the company's plans, said the airport should not have priority over the town centre.
"We now have a ludicrous situation where a property developer may dictate what can or cannot be built in our town centre."
The hearing ends today. The council will consider the commissioners' recommendations before a final decision is made on the application about next February.

[devolved]

What ever happened to the Bunnings (or what-ever-large-building) which was to be constructed where the golf driving range is at the 29 threshold?

The driving range is closed, which is a shame, I was getting close to hitting 250 with the std clubs. I do miss flying short finals and seeing kids at the range using us as moving targets :P ZK-ELA has some nice golf ball dings on its RHS.

Ive seen some interesting draft plans for the movement of 29/11, as in moving south in line with the calflight hanger (meaning it will have to go). It appears the runway length is reduced and flying over the top of midlands at 150 ft wont do much for the locals. Changing the surface to grass coupled with a shorter rwy, will right piss off the locals to the west on a 29 takeoff.

As for the repaint of the centreline a year or so back, why on earth did they paint a continuous line (which gets the wobbles down its length)? I prefer having the dashed line for better GS ref.

Larger a/c operating into PP, i sure hope they have bloody good TCAS, the airfield is only going to get busier in the training environment (huge potential there).

[prospector]

""We now have a ludicrous situation where a property developer may dictate what can or cannot be built in our town centre"

And herein lies the problem, and its a very large one.