Another easy Friday afternoon - LHR

[Climb Limited]

Can anyone shed light on reason for 'Braso' holding and EATs at 35 mins plus this afternoon. Heard some sort of 'infringement' was the cause.
Also, and perhaps I shouldn't ask, but what on earth was going on in the Sierras today? Tug with burst tyre, lots of flashy lights, stranded Jumbo and blocked cul-de-sac. All looked a bit difficult.
:confused:

[eddyboog]

Interesting afternoon
Zone infringer to the west, don't know if we caught up with him.
Couple of full emergencies. Hydraulic failure and one returning with smoke in the cabin. Also more than our usual share of messy missed approaches.
Heathrow radars last day in West Drayton and after today I am sure they won't miss it!

[Pelican]

Some kind of rotorcraft to the west of the field, north of approach to 09L. Tsk... Unable to establish whether it was a gyrocopter or a heli.

[Climb Limited]

Hope you track down the little blighter. Not much fun for the rest of us either in the air or controlling. It's not what you need when sector fuel is all you got.

Has the jumbo/tug combi been moved yet?

:\

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Heathrow radars last day in West Drayton and after today I am sure they won't miss it!>>

But it will be the very same people, doing the very same job albeit in a different building.... They take it all in their stride.

[autothrottle]

GMC1 at 8 pm was an absolute nightmare as all the days events came home to roost.....worst I have seen! 09L landers and 5 aircraft without stands in T1 . My least favourite configuration with that stupid taxiway config by the Kilos.

[WHBM]

Is EGLL really unable to change any of their arrangements without gross disorganisation ?

Went to and from Helsinki, out Friday am, return Sunday pm.

Outbound was late to stand, no delay information on departure board of course, just a blank, crew eventally said they had been 60 minutes taxying from landing, waiting for a stand. Then when ready to go held on stand for a further 20 minutes for a slot. Would have thought that if they are out of stands, holding departing aircraft on stand is the last thing to do.

Return the usual litany of delays, 40-minute slot hold at Helsinki, inevitably blamed on EGLL flow control and "air traffic control moving to a new building", three times round Lambourne of course, then on arrival held on ground for 30 minutes as "no stand available" again. Pax end up wondering if they will get home before the Underground closes for the night. However it turned out that the Piccadilly line had been closed all weekend anyway :rolleyes:

[llondel]

Is the lack of stands an issue with particular terminals, or a particular Big Airline, or do all travellers through HeathHell get the benefit?

[Julian Hensey]

Quick question:

Is there not a rapid response call out for the police helicopter on infringers? I would think as soon as someone is seen in the area and it looks like trouble there should be some sort of response for a call out to find and identify them....

I can even see the day when a big banner will come down underneath the helicopter saying "FOLLOW ME" with flashing blue lights and landing in the car park of the nearest magistrates court.....:rolleyes:

[PAXboy]

Is there not a rapid response call out for the police helicopter on infringers?That would cost money!!! Don't come with the "A mid-air would cost a lot more money" because the money for the mid-air would be from the carrier's insurer and the money to inspect and deal with the intruder would come from Police and/or ATC and they will not be willing to pay that up front. Even if they then had powers to sue the intruder for the cost.

So, what is needed is the equivalent of the commercial companies that carry out car clamping. They would get a percentage of each intruder that they track, identify and prosecute. :}

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Many moons ago an ex-colleague of mine got a Police chopper to go after a zone intruder and identify it. His actions were frowned upon because there was no guarantee what the "wildy" would do next and a mid-air with a Police chopper would not go down a bundle! This is not something which happens too often but intruders are tracked on radar with a fair degree of success... Problem is, very little happens thereafter apart from a gentle slap on the wrist.

[dvv]

It should be done like it's done in the Washington, DC, ADIZ — intruders are greeted not by extra flashing lights or follow me signs, but by a very determined–looking Black Hawks and/or F16s, and escorted to a nearby GA field, where they are handed over to a bunch of FBI agents for a long long talk. No tea, no biscuits.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Can anyone with knowledge of the London area seriously imagine F16s hurtling around the zone chasing lost PPLs? They'd present a far greater danger and longer delays than the odd clockwork mouse which gets lost. The majority of zone infringers do not cause problems; it's just the odd one (such as the one mentioned in this thread).

[dvv]

Well, if lost PPLs hurtle around London in such a manner as to provoke a chase from F-16s…

[The Nr Fairy]

If lost PPLs around London provoked a chase from F16s they really would be lost - somewhere in Belgium or Holland, at a rough guess.

[dvv]

Exactly. So nobody needs no hurtling around, just a prescribed intercept procedure in full cooperation with the ATC.

[PAXboy]

If they CAN be tracked with accuracy, then a standing fine would have them focus their attention. Just like a traffic fine - if you are driving the car that breaks the law - you pay.

A flat fine is simplest to administer so, £500 a time to cover the cost of administering the fine and to ensure that they really understood?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

There are severe penalties but the courts rarely impose them. Just like someone who drives over another person and kills them probably gets away with £100 fine and told not to do it again. But having jet fighters on standby for the very rare occasion when a lost pilot causes trouble is sheer nonsense. If the infringer is a mircrolight, can a jet fighter fly at 30 knots to "chase" it? C'mon.......

Of course aircraft can be tracked and tracking zone infringers is often successful. However, there are some pilots who know they've made an error and then fly below radar cover to destination!

[Algy]

So what would be the right course of action? Philosophically, zone infringements are a safety issue not a criminal law issue. For well-documented reasons, in most of the Western world we don't normally prosecute professional pilots (or controllers) that make errors. If someone is genuinely criminally negligent then there are appropriate mechanisms - pretty damn rare though.

We should apply the same rules to PPLs. If it's criminal negligence then we should punish appropriately, if a well-intentioned pilot - perhaps low-time, perhaps just unlucky - screws up then we need a programme to make him/her less likely to do that in future.

[Mercenary Pilot]

If the infringer is a mircrolight, can a jet fighter fly at 30 knots to "chase" it? C'mon.......I was under the impression that if an intercept is deemed necessary then usually its done by a police helicopter?

In the cases I've seen/heard about, the aircraft is tracked on radar then when landing, the airfield is called and registration/owner/pilot details are taken and usually dealt with by a bollocking. If it has caused a delay to departures or arrivals at an international airport and/or the helicopter was sent out then the punishment to PPL's is often an official caution by the CAA with some advisory/mandatory training required.

[tired]

All the above assumes of course that the intruder really is a lost PPL, not some Jihadist looking to enter Paradise......

[flugholm]

...or a non-PPL (but ex flight student) threatening to crash a hijacked (!) Super Dimona motorglider (850 kgs MTOW) into a city office building. Happened in Frankfurt in 2003. :mad: :mad: :mad: