Flight 93 -- more stuff

[Self Loading Freight]

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but a lot of details over UA Flight 93 -- the one that went down on Sept 11 in Pennsylvania -- still don't make sense. Here's an interesting discussion on the matter.

List of references and comments on Flight 93 (http://seattle.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=8369&group=webcast)

R

[Grainger]

Sounds like a load of propaganda from the anti-nuclear lobby to me.

How conveniently we forget the 123 killed on the Alexander Kielland and the 163 on Piper Alpha, no to mention the countless thousands in the coal mining industry who die from 'black lung' and other foul respiratory disease...

[Epsom Hold 2]

I think if UA93 was shot down, it would have been announced publically. Maybe even make them look good - willing to make difficult, horrible choices. Come on, the pax were gone anyway, if the plane was shot down it wouldn't have improved their chances which were nil, but it would have saved the lives of god knows how many on the ground. As it happens they didn't need to make that decision (although I understand fighters were en route).

The US gov't lost so much credibility because of the suspicious nature of the TW800 747 crash (which I firmly believe was a mechanical fault), if there was any evidence leaked about a shoot-down of UA93 then it would give the conspiracy theorists much more mileage re TW800. I firmly believe the American people would accept the shooting down of a hijacked airliner that was on a suicide mission, I would rather lose (with an extremely heavy heart) 50 or 100 people on a BA 757 than lose them PLUS the Houses Of Parliment / Sellafield, may god forbid. The phone calls from the flight suggested the pax knew the nature of the hijacking cos both WTC towers had been hit, and they said they were going to try to take over the flight.

Whatever the target, I believe this flight came down cos the passengers got onto the flightdeck and either whoever was flying lost it, or no-one was flying.

What a day.

[smiths]

It's not that easy to shoot down an airliner. Don't believe it? Ask the Russian and the Korean pilots. :rolleyes:

[Steepclimb]

Conspiracy theory rubbish, eyewitness reports as interviewed on the Discovery channel programme stated that the aircraft was last seen flying low, no mention of smoke was seen to 'wobble' rolled inverted and dived into the ground. Not much like a shootdown, which would be admitted anyway in the present circumstances.
To me that looks like a loss of control, considering the now well documented struggle onboard. Possibly it was a deliberate act on the part of the hijacker in an attempt to stop the passengers regaining control. There was a pilot among the passengers too.

I guess too that the hijackers were effectively lost, the most likely targets given the pattern of the was either the Whitehouse or the Capitol building, probably the Whitehouse. It fits the pattern of the day.
Most of us are pilots here, we know how difficult it would be for an inexperienced pilot to navigate visually in a high speed airliner to a point on the map off airways. Only the best military pilots are expected to do that. When you get there it is difficult to recognise a landmark. Witness how often pilots land at the wrong airport.
What all that tells me is the conspiracy theories are simply idle speculation by people who know no better or mischief making by people with an agenda.

Don't give them any credibility

Incidentally, I see from a newspaper reports that two Tornados were scrambled for a CAP over Sellafield after reports from Ireland to Scotland Yard and from a BMA staff member in Heathrow. True or False. I don't know.

[pigboat]

Agree with Steepclimb. If it had been shot down, would there not have been at least some sort of debris trail along the aircraft track? According to all reports I've seen, the wreckage was contained in the one area.

[RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo]

sorry pigboat there were 2 debris fields, in initial reports, bodies or at least 1 body reported there.

then the 4th estate shut up about everything that wasn’t the official government line. the press is not doing anyone a service by holding its tongue on this issue (especially while telling the whole world how to produce anthrax)

shot down? yep, evidence? yep, plausible deniability? you bet ya!

[PaperTiger]

I'll admit my instant gut reaction (nothing more) on Sep. 11 was that UA93 had been shot down. Although I do not propose it actually happened, I have not dismissed the possibility completely.

I do disagree that it would have immediately been made public. The US was reeling from the shocking events, and the administration was doing a credible impression of decapitated poultry. To release news of that sort would have been even more devastating. They would have waited a few days until sure that public opinion would have supported it (remember the polls right after the shootdown policy was announced ?). But subsequent revelations of the passengers' heroics, which were not known at the time any orders would have been given, mean that any such admission is now totally unpalatable.
The 'explosion and smoke' reported via cellphone has still not been explained IMO. This would be consistent with a sidewinder hit, ground eyewitness reports not withstanding. And an air-to-air missile would be unlikely to cause the instant disintegration of a 757 (cf. KE007).

As someone else pointed out, if the F-16 jock didn't shoot it down then I would have expected to see him/her placed very much in the public eye - press conferences, interviews etc.

This kind of cover-up would be much easier to achieve than say TW800* or the Vincennes, only a very few people in the loop. I don't rule it out yet, but hope one day I can.

(* an example, I'm not proposing TW800 was friendly fire)

[flappless]

come on guys - at least show some respect for the people who did not make it through the 11th September - every person on board this flight was a hero, lets not forget that. If the aircraft was shot down then so what? It really isn't that important right now. These people died at the hands of complete lunatics and all of us should hope that the ongoing actions should make the world a safer place. I for one think it will, even if Osama's head is not delivered on a platter. God bless them all !

[Heliport]

Flappless

Absolutely right.
Nothing to add.

http://www.tenniscompany.com/images/USFLAG.gif

[PETERJ]

FLAPLESS
If and only IF there was a F16 pilot who had to take that terrible decision....my prayers at least are with him.. Otherwise let us respect those who died and their families and afriends and acquantainces. The fcts will be out eventually

[Epsom Hold 2]

Having contributed to this one near the top, I walked to the PH and while en route I thought about UA93 a little longer and while my post above says basically 'I don't think it was shot down cos I don't see a need for a coverup', but I am a little confused by the smoke which was reported from the flight. If memory serves the gentleman on the phone also mentioned that the smoke was WHITE. To my mind that sounds not like a fire but CONDENSATION caused by sudden loss of cabin pressure. Hit by a missile or structural failure due to high G maneouvres? I don't know, but one of the two. The Gs would have to be incredibly high to break the cabin open, considering what other Boeings have flown through intact (TWA 727 and China AL 747SP mach 1 spiral dives, barrel rolls a party piece with the 707 til the LH training accident when they tried to do TWO). Unfortunately, as in TW800 (which I never thought was anything other than a mechanical failure), there is just enough unexplained here to give the conspiracy theorists a field day.

PS If someone let off a flare near the front, what would that look like to a passenger on the phone at the back of Y class?

[PaperTiger]

I see no disrespect of the UA93 passengers or other victims of Sep. 11th in any posts in this thread.
There is a time and place for emotional responses but there is equally a need for dispassionate analysis. Blind rage is just that, blind.

[aviator]

Epsom Hold 2 ,

Any white "smoke" at low altitude, low speed and a high angle of attack is just condensation coming off the wing. Take a look outside the next time you are on final near REF speed.

As for a loss of cabin pressure, the differential would be next to nil at low altitude.

May God bless the brave souls on board.

[RiverCity]

Just a guess, which I have not seen anywhere: if the pax know they are goners anyway (learning of the previous suicide crashes via cellphones), I would be willing to believe that they stormed the cockpit and --unable to move or disable the hijackers-- simply screwed things up so the plane would go in without taking other people with it.

"If we are going to die, and we are, at least let's not take anyone else with us. We can't take over and land safely. Let's let the pax pilot do what he can to put us nose down in an unpopulated area."

As with others here, I post this meaning no disrespect to anyone involved. I have thought often of this, as an old friend was on United 175. What would I do if I were the first one through the door and there was no way we could take over? I hope I'd be able to leave a voice recorder that says, "We can't overpower them. We're taking it in. God Bless America!"

[Unwell_Raptor]

Whatever any of us says, nothing on earth can stop this becoming yet another who-killed-kennedy type of myth. The USA is full of people who profoundly distrust Government, hence Roswell, chemtrails, and a thousand others.

[New Bloke]

I thought the Discovery program quite weak with little supporting evidence.

where is the CVR, surely this has been recovered? I would have thought that there had been time enough to analyse the tapes and publish transcripts.

[OldAg84]

I myself am a little curious as to why so little hard information has been released on UA 93.

I also feel if it was shot down the gov't needs to state this and why- otherwise if it comes out later they will have lost a lot of credibility. Personally I feel the point is moot. They were doomed anyway- I also think the hijackers would not have given back control of the aircraft- certainly at that altitude the ability to cause a crash is magnified- no altitude for recovery period- especially by a non-pilot. If they were shot down- in a fashion it shows the system "worked". I don't know if I could do it- but imagine the difference if none of the A/C had hit their targets.

Based on the phone calls- the passengers died fighting- they are heroes.

Finally, I don't believe the A/C was lost- If an individual can control a heavy jet at high speed/low altitude, I suspect they can navigate. Clearly, the flight path shows they were headed for DC or maybe Three mIle Island.

Finally, I hope I don't sound callous- that is not my intent- my thoughts and prayers are with anybody who has been hurt by these horrendous unspeakable acts.

[FFFlyer]

The Buzz site seems to have picked references very selectively to stoke up a case for a conspiracy. I followed the news on this very closely at the time. Just after the hijacking there were several documented accounts of passengers who said they were going to try to overpower the hijackers. It was also reported that shortly before the crash a voice speaking accented English was heard saying in the cockpit 'What are you doing here? Get out!' It was also widely reported that in several cell phone conversations the hijackers said they had a bomb. Don't also forget that by then the WTC planes had already crashed and the passengers were aware of this so the element of surprise was gone - they knew what was in store. None of this was mentioned, as I could see in the above site links. Ok you can say that was all disinformation but then how far do you go in a hall of mirrors?

[LatviaCalling]

As a journalist in my bygone days, I covered the Three Mile Island nuclear accident non-stop for 10 days for UPI. I even went into the control room with President Carter wearing my plastic slippers, and believe, me there was no way that these yo-yos could have taken out TMI and caused a major radiation leak.

My personal believable theory is that the pax attacked the cabin, or that some kind of major disturbance was made, that the so-called rogue pilot didn't know what to do, or if it was the real pilot flying the aircraft, he flew it into the ground, maybe after someone set off explosives in the plane. Theory of the four-mile gap.

Sorry, no Three Mile Island theory on my part.

Emil (LatviaCalling)

[Jase Neale]

I first thought it was shot down. Then I thought the passengers stormed the flight deck. Perhaps both of these things occured. The only way to know for sure is to examine the FDR and CVR. Until then speculation on this unfortunate flight will continue. The only thing I am sure of though, is that someone somewhere knows exactly what happened.
I hope it will never happen again. God rest their souls.

[spagiola]

What I'd like to know about this flight is why it flew west for an hour before turning back east, towards DC or wherever. If the point is to have an aircraft full of fuel, surely a two-hour trip to target makes no sense. If the point is to have the element of surprise, again a 2-hour trip makes no sense. That seems to me a more interesting subject of speculation than some of these conspiracy theories.