QantasLink/Eastern advertising now! [Archive]

GalleyHag

21st Jan 2003, 11:13

I was an Eastern F/A now with QF. Let me tell you think long and hard before moving states to join Eastern.

Dont get me wrong Eastern is a great company. Fantastic crew and management. However living is a struggle.

You will earn around $800 a fortnight and for the 2 years that I was there the most I ever got with allowances (paid monthly) was $1100.00 You average around 2 overnights a week which pays $58 cash at the hotel.

Dont think for a second its an door into QF because it is not. At present there is something like 120 crew. QF currently take 16 crew per year (8 every 6 months) as progression. This will be increased to 20 per year if the new EBA gets up. However QF only take regionals when there is permanent external recruitment into short haul. All regional progression is Melbourne based. For the first year I was at Eastern there was no progression schools as there was not permanent recruitment into short haul. No one from Eastern has ever gone accross under 4 years and the school going over in Feb of this year have all been there 5 years. You take your senority with you though.

In the latest QF recruitment I was told something like 80% of Eastern crew applied externally. A lot didnt even get a phone interview and a lot were cut at Stage 3 and something like 5-6 are currently at stage 4. I know 3 of them at stage 4 and I can tell you they are excellent crew and obviously QF have seen that as well. The others joined after I left last year. So dont assume just because you work for a QF regional you will cruise through any external recruitment because you wont. The 3 I know of have all undertaken courses been pro-active crew members and are VERY highly regarded. Maybe that is why they are at stage 4 and the other 77% are not.

A large proportion of Eastern crew have a second job just to live (in Sydney). You can do anything up to 7 sectors a day and its not uncommon to have a 6 sector 10 hour day. There are also a lot of good things Im just letting you know the not so good things.

If you are interviewed in Sydney you maybe offered either Sydney or Melbourne as a base. If you decide to join Eastern dont go for Melbourne. The flying is very limited 3-4 destinations and 1 overnight a month and no 300 series (50 seat 2 f/a) flying. You can make more money and get more variety in flying out of Sydney.

Dont let me put you off but just think about some of the real issues ($$$) before joining. They have a large turnover of crew as people realise its just impossible to live on the money they pay and getting to QF is not as easy as you may think before you join.

jupiter2

23rd Jan 2003, 06:38

Galleyhag....
A very realistic view of Eastern.

I have found that a lot of crew have a lot to say about their lives there.
Many are quite unhappy and are quite vocal about it as well. In fact, it is rare to hear a positive comment from anyone in any department.
There have been quite a few resignations of late as well.
I dont think that these views have escaped the attention of management either.

An increase in pay or an ability to control lifestyle issues, would assist morale greatly.
The offered EBA. has a very lose interpretation to a part-time work environment.
Unfortunately, the re-wording of transfer agreements to short-haul could actually stall present available transfer slots altogether.

If you are an Eastern cabin crew member, please vote 'no' to the EBA in it's present form.

pushback747

23rd Jan 2003, 08:00

Galleyhag;

Take note!!

Who are you to say that the other 77% of Eastern/Qantaslink weren't good enough to succeed?

How do you know what the other 77% have achieved in their working careers prior to and with Eastern?

Do you know if they contacted every single one of the 4000 applicants they recieved online?

I can tell you GALLEYHAG that alot of the applicants from Eastern have similar if not identical experiences and all did not get called.

I can also tell you that some applicants on paper were in fact more qualified than others, and simply were not called.

Just another piece of information I can share with you whilst we're on the subject, of the several people awaiting favourable responses, all are fantastic F/A that have proven themselves on the days given. The others are fantastic F/A that didn't get a chance too, or quite simply bombed out on the day.

Apart from the trash you gave us about the 77%, I can honestly say the rest of your advice rings somewhat true.

Now I hope this reply does not offend you as you offended the other 77% of Eastern/Qantaslink.

Good day.

GalleyHag

23rd Jan 2003, 10:34

Pushback 747

Dont be so bitter!!

I didnt say that 77% crew were not good enough I was just saying that there maybe a reason why they werent called and just because you work for a QF regional does not mean that you will cruise through the QF recruitment.

You tell me than why are the other 77% not at Stage 4 with the rest of them if they have all the experience etc that you claim. Are you saying that stage 1 of QF recruitment is random? I think not.

Dont misunderstand what I am trying to say I was just trying to be realistic sooo many people join regionals thinking they will get to QF when that is not the case and thats life people should be made aware of that fact before packing up their lives and moving to a new state at great expense its people like you that offend not me im just giving the facts.

go_dj

23rd Jan 2003, 10:42

Galleyhag

I am stunned at the pay you quoted, this is very far behind
VBs pay and overnights, I thought QF link were about the
same rate as virgin, thanks for the info, I live and learn.

SydGirl

23rd Jan 2003, 22:27

GalleyHag,

Though *most* of what you say is true, I think your post is coming across as sounding very bitter towards Eastern.

There are a LOT of people who want to become Flight Attendants, and only a limited number of places available in QF and DJ - at times there are no opportunities due to no recruitment.

Yes, Eastern FA's do get paid only 27K in their first year, however if you join Eastern then you join and ACCEPT those terms. Frankly, I get sick to death of hearing people whine about the bad pay, even though they were made aware of the pay when they joined and they still accepted the position!

And you are right, progression is a huge issue. If progression were more regular and FA's knew that it will only take X years to get to QF then perhaps the morale would be better. People could put up with the bad pay for X years because they know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel $-wise. This new EBA is not helping that cause since progression is still linked to external QF permanent recruitment. For all we know, QF may never recruit externally for permanent hire ever again. That means Eastern crew will never achieve progression.

Having said all of that, if you want to be an FA then Eastern is a great place to start. It is a small company, you work independently a lot of the time and you have a lot of responsibility. Since you work on your own, you get to do things the way you want to do them.. not the way some cranky old CSM wants you to do it. Also, Eastern offers a lot of opportunities for advancement into other areas, and encourages you to expand your knowledge and learning.

Personally, I think that QF should take all of their crew through the regionals, rather than recruit externally.

SG
:)

PS. jupiter2 I agree with you, I shall also be voting 'no'.

Bodum

24th Jan 2003, 00:21

Poor Galley Hag :(

I think Galley Hag has been a little misunderstood and harshly treated in this post.

Galley Hag stated that Eastern is a great company with great crew and management . I fail to see how this comment in particular makes Galley Hag appear bitter.

Might also be worth noting that at least Galley Hag is honest and is stating the facts. There has been no exaggeration and somebody has to do it in these posts, as it all comes down to information. An applicant has the right and should be heavily armed with as much information, good or bad, regarding an airline and it conditions. There is not much point in fluffing it up and painting a rosie picture, because with any company, airline or not, its not rosie. Galley Hag has honestly reported both with good intentions, mainly aimed at those seeking employment from other states. Personally, if I was living in another state, I would be grateful to have ALL this information as I would then have a choice - Think twice or go to the formentioned carrier with guns blazing. Its a BIG move.

OK off that subject now.

Galley Hag also chose to apply externally to Qantas whilst in the employ of the regional. The experience Galley Hag gained obviously put He/She in good stead for the position, and this can be looked at as a positive for all those seeking employment within a regional. Dont join with the outlook of "progressing" to Qantas. Use the time to gain valuable experience, and if you enjoy it, hang aroung, all the while gaining experience that money cant buy.

Good luck to all of you who apply to Eastern. Arm yourselves with the information Galley Girl, Jupiter2,Syd Girl have offered and any other information you can find and go get em.

:)

GalleyHag

24th Jan 2003, 07:18

Dearest Syd Girl

Bitter??? Far from it I wouldnt be where I am today or the f/a I am today without Eastern. I cant thank Eastern enough for the experience and knowledge that I have gained. I loved being at Eastern BUT like everyone else at Eastern (should I rephase that in case I offend) I wanted to be at QF.

I agree with what you say there are limited opportunites HOWEVER, my point was for Joe or Josephine Blow living in Perth/Adelaide/Brisbane etc be aware that Eastern is hard going. A lot of peoples dream is to be an f/a and at times they think "yeah I can survive on $27K" however the reality is $800 a fortnight in Sydney is not that much if you are paying rent etc.

All I was stating was actual FACT there was NO crap in my post and if you are an Eastern f/a you would know that. Dont you think people have the right to know what the downsides are??? I can go on and on all day about how great it is to work with Eastern but all I did was point out the downside and I am sorry if you think that is bitter or if I have offended people. Believe it or not there are also downsides to QF yeah thats right its not all rosy over here either but at least at the end of the fortnight you can pay the bills.

I saw it time and again girls and boys spending thousands moving states only to realise they couldnt live off the salary in Sydney and that it would take 8 years to progress and external recruitment was just as hard.

You state that people that join Eastern should ACCEPT the terms. Well I put it to you: Why should the progression document or salary change dramatically (as you hope obviously through the current EBA) as in your own words if you join Eastern you ACCEPT the terms.

Furthermore have you ever worked with a CRANKY OLD CSM???? I think not!! Because if you had worked with a QF CSM you would know there are no such people over here at QF there are only CSM's full of support and experience that you can learn and develop your own career from.

I would be VERY interested to know why you think recruitment into QF should only come from regionals. Surely its not because you think you are so hard done by at Eastern that you should be faced tracked ahead of external applicants? If that was the case you would be working with those Cranky Old CSM's faster than what you think and you wouldnt like that would you. Maybe you might learn something like oh say maturity!!

Thanks Bodum for your support I was thinking "am I mad dont potential f/a's have a right to know information that is not readily available to the general public".

Have a great long weekend

vdd

24th Jan 2003, 08:53

Hi all

As a non-Eastern F/A or any sort of F/A for that matter I found GalleyHag's comments quite constructive and I don't think he/she was criticising Eastern F/As at all. I think GalleyHag's comments were very black and white and things have been misunderstood and taken out of context.

I also don't think QF SH or LH recruitment should only be available to Regional F/As. Who is to say that us non F/As won't be as good and enthusiastic as a Regional F/A applying for a QF position. Believe me... if I and many others here on Pprune ever get a job with QF we'll be sure to give 120% as we're just as eager and dedicated as any Regional F/A.

Everyone's input has been interesting and as a Syd person living temporarily in Adelaide I know that a salary of $27,000 in Syd is not easy to live on.

Cheers
vdd:)

SydGirl

25th Jan 2003, 08:36

GH,

Firstly I apologise if you feel I was having a go at you by my last post, I most certainly wasn't as I know you are entitled to your own opinion - I was just voicing mine :)

People do need to know what the downsides of any job are, and readers of this forum are lucky enough to have plenty of people with experience to draw from and give them both sides of the coin before they consider joining any company!

Having said that, the pay at Eastern is made VERY clear to applicants upfront (I believe it is discussed at some length in the interview stage), so there is really no reason for FA's to complain about something they agreed to when they joined. As for me personally, I am of the opinion that if the payrise offered in this EBA does not even keep in line with CPI then it's not really moving forward is it? In fact, it's not even standing still - it's going backwards.

As for career progression.. Eastern is a very different company to what it was 2 years ago, just the number of crew alone has nearly tripled from 44 to 122 in just over twelve months! So yes I would like to see the issue of progression reviewed so that it is workable for everyone both at the top and those at the bottom of the list.

As for your comment about CSMs... I have worked with many a cranky old CSM (mind you I have also worked with some fantastic ones too!) - so in this case I do know what I'm talking about! I won't even make a comment about your issue of 'maturity' - 2 years ex-Eastern and some time as an FA in QF does not by rights make you mature.

And yes I would like to see QF recruitment take place through regionals - not because I think external applicants are no good, but because I feel that regional airlines offer an excellent grounding, challenges and experience for people. I am sure you will agree GH that Eastern taught you a lot about appreciation for what you have now. Eastern is also not the ONLY regional airline in the QF brand.

So we disagree on a few things, that's fine by me. I wish you all the best in your career with QF.

SG
:)

cabinboy

25th Jan 2003, 09:19

SYDGIRL,

Your comments are fantastic - just goes to show that you don't need to call someone immature because they disagree with you.

GalleyHag I would like to pull you up on a few comments you have made and first being about accepting the conditions of employment when joining a company. Sure, us regional f/a's did sign a contract agreeing to the terms and conditions of employment when joining our respective regional airlines however that doesn't mean that we are not entitled to more money or better conditions or better treatment from big brother QF - we didn't exactly get a choice in negotiating the salary when joining the company. I am unsatisfied with the pay we regional flight attendants get, we deserve more. We are not asking for mainline salary, but simply something a bit more. Are you telling me that the QF mainline conditions have not evolved over the years ? So why can't ours ? Do you think that the Impulse crews deserved not to have QF staff travel or progression when they joined QFLINK just because when they joined they signed a contract which didn't include these new benefits at the time ?

Also, not EVERYONE at Sunstate, Eastern and Impulse want to fly for QF. As a matter of fact I work with several ex L/H and S/H crew who choose to fly for the regionals for their respective reasons. You were lucky to be chosen by QF for external recruitment without waiting in the progression que, but I doubt you would be making half the comments you are if QF had only offered you a 12 month fix termed contract after all of your efforts to skip the que?

I would like to add another "positive" in the benefit of joining the regional airlines and progressing to QF, you take your seniority with you and a hell of a lot of good management skills with you - which QF DO recognise, you'll find that MANY new CSM's around the network have a regional background........food for thought :) $$$

Happy landings all
CB

qfmike737

25th Jan 2003, 12:06

I think being a regional flight attendant would be great!You get so much experience working on your own as well as within a small network. It's warm and friendly and you get to build many new and rewarding relationships with people. All the experience would be such a bonus if you did progress into QF mainstream....with the seniorority!

However...I wouldn't care how much I got paid as long as it paid the bills...money isn't an issue. For some people it's the experience that matters more and some people will do everything they can do to get it!

For people that really want to be a flight attendant...they would do the job for free if they could...just like the volunteers at hospital....as long as you have something to pay the bills....

enough of my little waffle

happii flying and good luck Eastern applicants!!!

from

Mikey boy

saloon

25th Jan 2003, 22:59

Firstly, I think that the argument "you knew before you signed, so deal with it", is absolutely ridiculous! Employees (no matter what industry) should be paid a fair wage that reimburses them for their skills and the demands of their job roles. $400 as a base wage does not reflect the demands and challenges that regional fa's face!

Secondly, to qfmike737-

I totally disagree with you on the "just enough to pay the bills" stream of thought! Currently working at a mind-numbing job through uni that pays barely enough to cover basic educational/transport/living expenses, when i get out into the *real* world I want to be paid a wage that allows me room to breathe in regards to finances. The prospect of "just eough to pay the bills" is a scarey thought when put into the perspective of a 55 year working life!

SydGirl

26th Jan 2003, 00:41

Firstly, I agree that the pay at Eastern is not good. However, when you joined the company you were told that this is how much you will earn. What IRKS me is when people who have been in the company for five minutes (mind you the same ones who were at the interview assuring management that yes I can deal with the money etc. etc.) start whining about the lack of money.

Recently, Eastern crew have been presented with a new EBA to look through. You either vote Yay or Nay to this one. THIS is Eastern crew's opportunity to fix the perceived problem with poor pay - what they are offering is in black and white (excluding progression arrangements, seperate yet unseen document). If you feel that the rise in salary is adequate, along with the other issues then you will vote YES. If not, then you will vote NO. Pretty straightforward.

What I am saying is that no amount of whining by crew will fix the pay problem unless they vote to FIX it in the new EBA. (Am I making sense here?).

Each crewmember needs to assess the new EBA based on it's merits for his/her own personal situation.

And qfmike737 I agree with you, some people do the job because they LOVE the job, money is secondary. Others do the job as a career, and still others do it as a way to make money. Different strokes for different folks! :)

SG
:)

GalleyHag

26th Jan 2003, 02:02

My POST was aimed at people who have never flown before. In the future I will keep my comments to myself and Syd Girl you can than deal with all these people that complain about the salary and conditions etc as my post was aimed at those people. Reality sets in after five minutes and through my post I just wanted to educate them a little.

FYI I have flown now for over 16 years 2 years at Eastern and than onto QF I didnt mention my flying experience before that so I do know what I am talking about. Although in the big scheme of things the number of flying years means nothing.

As for Impulse, great go get as much as you can. You have done exceptionally well so far considering your terms and conditions from Air Crews Control and how many years have you been with QF 2-3.

qfmike737

26th Jan 2003, 08:05

Saloon I understand what you are saying. Studying is hard you dont make much and you dont have much room to breathe. Been there done that and although scary as it may seem the REAL WORLD is the $400 basic salary!

Uni isn't a prerequisite for being a regional flight attendant....I studied and at the end of it I got a job in the career I thought I wanted to pursue earning good money...but then I just wanted a career change. I dont regret study, everything was beneficial.

The airline industry is competitive and for many people just being a flight attendant is an amazing goal to achieve full stop! *congrats all you new flight attendants* ;-) I guess aiming for a salary is less priority at the time but you have the opportunity to focus on it once you are stable somewhere in the industry.

I guess instead of spending 3 years studying full time uni you could perhaps look at it from the perspective that flying regionally for 3 years is like studying full time. You dont earn that much but you LEARN ALOT!!!! :-) and perhaps after that progressing into a position with a higher paying salary is the next goal.

In the meantime if money is of a particular importance at this time of your life may I suggest looking at alternatives careers for awhile? Perhaps in an industry relating to what you studied so you can get satisfaction and experience.

Well....

Lets just hope that regional flight attendants do get a pay increase :-) if not....enjoy lotsa happy flying!!!!

:-)

from

Mikey

saloon

26th Jan 2003, 23:05

Well said qfmike! That last post put alot into perspective. I totally agree that regional fa experience would be worth far more (on a more personal level) in the long run - that is the reason that I want to start with a regional (believe it or not). Currently I don't have many commitments (ie dependants, repayments, etc) so I could live off $400 basic a week. But I feel that if it is going to take a substantial number of years to progress salaries should increase accordingly (and fairly, I am hardly saying $60 000 pa for a fifth year fa).

I also can see where SydGirl is coming from. It is illogical to agree to terms and conditions of your contract and then after six months be expecting that contract to change in your favour! You have to work within the boundaries of the system. Whining about low pay isn't going to change anything, but expressing your concerns to the union and then voting accordingly on the EBA will!

And GalleyHag, your comments were appreciated! We all need the inside info and a reality check from those in the know from time to time.

vdd

27th Jan 2003, 00:15

Hey qfmike737 and Saloon

Your last comments are great and I agree that getting a job with a regional airline would provide one with heaps of experience.

Qfmike737 your comments and enthusiasm are always quite refreshing.

Cheers
vdd
:)

How's it Hanging

27th Jan 2003, 08:57

Interesting to see the different views on EAA working conditions, so I thought I would throw in my two bob's worth.
As others have said, Eastern is a good company to work for, but the more influence the evil empire has, the harder some of the pills are to swallow. Sure you know what you get when you sign up, but obviously Qantas managers have no conscience at all to have full time employees, working in positions of responsibility being paid a wage which is almost below the poverty line. I would be embarrassed if I had to admit it, but they probably just rub their hands together and think for everyone they pay that amount they will receive it in bonuses.
It has to have some effect on performance regardless of how professional the attitude of the employee.
Sure the experience is good, the problem is that you cannot live off $27000 a year in Sydney unless you have some outside support in the form of family or partner. The other option is a second job, which a lot used to do, but as working conditions have changed over the years a second job is just sometimes not an option.
When FA's first started with EAA shifts were pretty short and there were only 20-30 FA's. There was the option of a second job as people had both the time and energy to do it. For the amount of time they spent at work the pay seemed OK, especially with QF only a few years away. Over the years the working conditions have changed, shifts have become longer, but it seemed everyone still hung out for progression rather than trying to improve the situation for those currently there and those to join in the future.
Qantas have played on this and unless the current group make a stand to get their pay up to a decent level they will only fall further behind the 8 ball. Banking on progression under the current restrictions is ridiculous, especially as other QLink FA's earn considerably more for doing the same job. Even if progression goes up to a guaranteed 20 a year, it is now 6 years away for those just joining.
How it is done I am not sure, but someone needs to stand up for what has been eroded over the years by management, and maybe, a lack of vision from previous flight attendant groups.

negotiator

28th Jan 2003, 08:52

For those Eastern F/A's whom frequent this site, be cautious about what message you may be sending your collegues. Particularly when discussing sensitive issues like the new EBA.

A vote 'NO' is your choice and indeed your right.

All I ask is that you study the new document, consider it's merit for ALL F/A's, thoroughly understand it's content, and attend the information sessions. Finally, please contact your representatives to discuss any issues of concern.

Is the new agreement everything we ask for? No, it's not.
But it is an improvment on all levels. The EBA team feel they have achieved the best possible result without the negotiations becoming dangerously circular.

Please cosider what a 'NO' vote may mean for you and your collegues.

jupiter2

29th Jan 2003, 21:51

I think it is also extremely important to understand what a 'Yes' vote will mean for the Eastern Cabin Crew, especially for such a long duration.
A 'No' vote will certainly initiate new discussions, hopefully focussing on 'lifestyle' issues.

negotiator

29th Jan 2003, 23:44

Jupiter2

Most of the proposed EBA is geared to 'Lifestyle'.
Consider the introduction of
i) Part-time for 10% of our crew complement.
ii) Access to single week leave blocks.
iii)Days in Lieu and a payment in exchange for working a DDO.
iv) Four roster requests in stead of three.
v) Confirmed 28day rosters instead of fortnightly.
vii) Allowances paid fortnightly instead of monthly.

Voting 'NO' will not necessarily mean more discussions with management. Firstly, an emergency general meeting would be called and Flight Attendants would have the opportunity to discuss their concerns and decide where to go from there. (Thats if everyone bothers to turn up)
It could mean Industrial action or futher discussions with management.
Be sure about one thing, we may very well see the erosion of the good initiatives we have made with this agreement.

But hey, just call me, you know who I am. I'm more than happy to discuss this further.

jupiter2

31st Jan 2003, 21:14

Hi Negotiator.
Thankyou for your thoughts on what must have been an exhausting adventure. Enterprise bargaining is a very difficult task, requiring very dedicated people to accommplish this. I am certain that many cabin crew are grateful that you are doing this on their behalf as well. But, you already know that it is hard to please everyone, especially when every individual has a different 'want' from an EBA.
Thanks for including a new 'part-time' work arrangement.
As everyone's interpretation of what a 'part-time' work arrangement should look like, I should have made my interpretation of the word 'Lifestyle', clear as well. For me, it is the ability to earn more pay and to afford a better future for myself.
I must stress here that the payscale at Eastern was made very clear to me before I signed my employment contract. I was content to supplement my wage with a second work arrangement.
However, it was also implied that there were ample opportunities to earn much more money in over-time and overnight allowances.
In reality, I have found both illusive and difficult to acheive.
There is also little stability with my work schedule, which I understand can be just the nature of the business itself.
Because every persons financial arrangements are different, I will need to seek an alternative very soon. Although I enjoy aviation with a passion, I dont want to trade my house for the love affair with it.
After much agonising, I have unfortunately decided to exit the business at my earliest opportunity.
Having said that, I recall a moment from a past aviation life, where I had the pleasure of negtiating equipment for leased B747 aircraft from a Singapore based airline company.
I learnt a lot about having all of the finest details made in all contracts after some irritating and embarrassing situations. I also developed a fondness to many proverbs I would hear.
'Never accept first offer', was one from a gentleman I used to deal with there.
But then again, when pressed for promised replacement equipment, he would also add, 'ah yes, we said we would replace, but we didn't say when'!
Best wishes and good fortune with the negotiations!

also