Thinking of doing ME/IR in Spain, any advice?

[Captain Punishment]

Hi all, I am due to finish my final ATPL exams very soon and am looking to book my ME/IR, I want ths first beofre CPL to get the "big one" out of the way first and then have 10 hour knocked off of the CPL course.

I am thinking of doing the ME/IR in Spain as it is much cheaper nd weather is more consistant to complete. Spain is a JAA state and is fine to do the training as long as I add it to a UK CPL, but I just have one worry. Is a JAA Spanish IR worth the weight of one in the UK on my CV. Would an HR dept favour more an applicant with a UK IR as oppose to another JAA member state?

Oviously I would like t save money, but certainly not at the risk of potentially reducing my attractiveness to a propective airline employer.

Any experiences, thoughts, information and advice would be greatly appreciated.

[apruneuk]

In reality, the only people who give a damn where you did your IR are those schools that can't afford to compete. Spain is a JAA state and satisfies the criteria and standards laid down by the JAA. If you do the CPL in the UK and the IR in Spain the IR will appear on your UK issued licence with no mention of where it was done.

Don't get sucked into the "our standards are better than your standards" debate. It's just spin.

[geordiejet]

I did my MEIR in Spain, and I was overall pleased with the quality. I would look at the Aerodynamics Malaga thread, and I believe there is a genreal training in spain thread somewhere. But I agree with everything apruneuk said, especially on the spin.

[bobster1]

Hi there, dont believe the spin re training in Spain, I am at Aerodynamics at the moment doing IR.
I started in UK and got so pi55ed of with the school I was at, only doing an hour a day in the sim, and instructor changing his mind about certain things to suit, and a stropy attitude.
I can honestly say the organization and training so far has been 1st class.
I completed around 12 hours IR in UK, which I could not transfer so have had to start a fresh, and the 1st 12 hours here have been spot on, better in fact than the UK training I received, I am fortunate I suppose as I can compare the two from 1st hand experience and not from the woffle some people come up with on here.
Of course UK schools are going to bad mouth the place, my ME/IR is costing me 5900 pounds (not a typo + sorry no pound sign on spanish keyboard) and that includes landing fees, A/C for flight test and Authority fees for test!!
Of course I can only comment on the school I am at and not the other Spanish schools, but Aerodynamics Malaga spot on so far, still got a flight test to get through though.
Will keep you posted if anything changes, but I cant see it.:ok:

[moggiee]

IR in Spain.

Cheap, easy to pass and I don't know a single person who did it and hasn't come to regret that choice in the medium to long term.

I wouldn't if I were you.

[Dramaqueen1]

hi, I need some feedback from the best schools in Spain for JAR Atpl!
Any recommendations?

[apruneuk]

As I said, don't believe the negative spin, especially from those like Moggiee who just shout rubbish from behind the wall (a particularly prevalent trait on these forums amongst those who give no information about themselves in their Profiles).

[apruneuk]

Or could it be that Moggiee works for a UK FTO? Case rested!

[bobster1]

Or could it be that Moggiee works for a UK FTO? Case rested!

He does..

I made my choice after speaking to 2 people who have been here in the latter half of this year, they have both been succesful since, having been called to interview and passed sim checks, one has started work on a 73 (not FR), the other is in a holding pool for ATR TR, awaiting start date.

I don't know a single person who did it and hasn't come to regret that choice

How many is this? and why did they regret it? and which school did they go to? as I said earlier I know off 2 people recently who dont regret it at all, they saved 6k+ and completed the course quickly as you will fly min 2hours a day more like 3, and they have gained employment swiftly.

You cant tar a whole countries FTOs´ with the same brush, and on what grounds, I am guessing here say as you dont instruct any IR/IMC flight training just MCC, which should not be about peoples IR skills.
If UK training is so good compared to the rest of Europe why is your 1st time pass rate not 100%, could it be candidates not being ready for test, strict examiners, or maybe the training is not as good as you think.

[kala87]

Do the IR in Spain, and save yourself a packet of money. The instructors (at least, the ones I've met) are every bit as professional as the UK ones. Many are ex-Iberia or other airline professionals. As others have pointed out, once the CPL/IR is on your licence, it's a JAR document, issued by the CAA, and doesn't say in which JAR country the qualification was obtained. I'm sure most airlines wouldn't care either. Despite the hype, IMHO training at Oxford or Cabair isn't the be-all-and-end-all of professional training.

Why should you pay the CAA £720 (or whatever silly amount it is now) just for the IRT when you can do the same test for a fraction of the amount in Spain, just to finance the CAA's fat margins?

Have you tried AirPal at Palma? They fly BE76's, have a good reputation and very competitive prices. Palma in winter/spring would be a great place to train and you would get some interesting weather, not as bad as the UK but enough to make for some challenging flying.

Good luck

[moggiee]

Or could it be that Moggiee works for a UK FTO? Case rested!
I do - and have never pretended otherwise. As for the rest of it, well - make up your own minds - I've said my piece and I'm not going to get into a slagging match. Suffice to say, I'm not trying to advertise, we have a nice long bookings backlog and a very good pass rate.

[eph6]

I've completed courses in new zealand, usa, ireland and Spain. I have to say that Spain was one of the most positive aviation experiences I've ever had. People genuinely went above and beyond what they needed to.
I had absolutely no complaints.

[Captain Punishment]

Thanks guys, I didn't want to name the school that I was looking at doing my IR at in Spain as I wanted to see what FTO's cropped up. Aerodynamics was my choice, I have been there this year to check out facilites and they are far better than anywhere else that I have looked at.

I flew around the area, Jerez, Gib, Morroco from Malaga and all was fine including a half price IR! It has all been booked now for Feb and I can't wait!

Had some very positive PM's to support all the good feedback for Aerodyamics. I'm sure the course will be as good and professional as the people that I have met there so far and flown with.

[september4ever]

Hello everybody! I just finished my ME / IR course with Aerodynamics. I spent loads of time reading in different forums about schools in Spain, and specifically about Aerodynamics.

I had quite a lot of doubts regarding this, but the price difference made me change my mind and I ended up completely convinced about it. Now I know that the decission I have taken, has been the right one. I have to recognise that once I arrived here everything was quite chaotic, I lost my luggage and once I got it finally back, got I off on the wrong train station,so I once I arrived to school I was rather angry because of all this mess.

Once I finally got there, do I have to admit that everyone treated me very well from the beginning on. I got informed about all kind of transport. They tried their best to make everything easier and more comfortable for me, regarding train stations to use, bus lines, interesting directions, cheap and good places to stay, etc.. Of course wasn´t this the most relevant thing but it was quite a usefull information.

The theoretical classes with the instructors have been excellent, and I have been very lucky with the weather which has been fantastic. I have had no problems at all neither with flight delays or cancellations because of the fabulous weather conditions in this country. All has been so much better than I could ever have had imagined. I have the feeling, they are trying to recover their good image, based on their good service and their fleet of airplanes.

Well, if someone of the Aerodynamics stuff does read this, please note that those are my bank account details…

Above all I am very happy because I have my IR rating and I have saved a huge amount of money.

Greetings to everyone and please if anyone wants or needs more information, do not hesitate in contacting me.

[CaptainKC]

Hi Sept,

I am looking at the cost of the Multi IR and would be very interested in finding out how much they actually will charge for the training, and any good or bad points you have to share from Spain?

Thanks
CptKC

congrats on your Muti/IR!!:D

[bobster1]

Hi there CptKC,the price you see is the price you pay at Aerodynamics Malaga, I did my CPL in UK on a multi, so the ME/IR course here has cost me just over 5900 pounds, this includes approach fees, landing fees, and test fees, there are no hidden extras.
Also on arrival you will receive as a gift a new flight bag containing:
Course details, ie each sim session and what the detail involves likewise for A/C details.
A/C POH.
A/C Checklist
Folder with all the plates needed throughout the course and an IFR chart, all laminated so can be scribbled on!
Complimentary polo shirt
Hi Viz jacket.
1st day involves ground school, talking through A/C systems and emergency procedures etc.
Daily you will receive a text from ops stating your report time for following day
No days off are scheduled, you will fly 2 to 3 hours a day and if the schedule allows then possibly 2 flights a day, this is great for continuity of training.
You will find a highly organized and very proffesional team here and I am glad I made the choice and saved thousands of pounds.
The only thing extra is accomodation around E35 a night, so around 700 pound should cover that, the apartment I am in is a 5 min walk from school so no transport costs, there is a fully fitted kitchen, so cook meals most nights, again food is cheap, and if you can survive on beans on toast then you will hardly spend anything!

[HN1708]

Anyone been to Aerofan in Madrid for the MEIR lately? Looking for recent feedback, feel free to PM if you don't want to post your views.

Thanks

[IRISHPILOT]

"Cheap, easy to pass and I don't know a single person who did it and hasn't come to regret that choice in the medium to long term."

It would surprise me if all those Spaniards flying for Iberia, Air Europa, etc really have come to regret training in Spain. - Maybe that poster simply doesn't know many people abroad...

While I have never come across anyone asking me where I did my training (did it in US, Ireland, UK, Czech Republic), I cannot comment on whether UK companies do ask, but I know that this is certainly not true in the medium to long term as stated.

A colleague of mine did his MEIR in the Czech Republic (where the appropriate aircraft costs no more than 220 Euro per hour with instructor) and got a job immediately on a 737.

I am certain that a Spanish rating is perfectly acceptable. All the best for the course! IP

[RVR800]

Value for money and better weather ....

As FTE are in Spain is it not a matter of who does the check ride (which authority) ?

[CaptainKC]

Hi Bobster,

Thanks for your reply, I was only looking at doing the conversion in Aerodynamics, however I may consider doing the Multi IR complete course in Spain after a JAR CPL in Florida. Please PM me I would like to know some more of your expeirence. One of my concerns about doing the IR FAA first is the slight difference in the syllabus (NDB holds for example not done for FAA) Look forword to hearing from you.

Cheers
Cpt KC:)

[moggiee]

Value for money and better weather ....
As FTE are in Spain is it not a matter of who does the check ride (which authority) ?
FTE are regulated by the UK CAA and their skills test are conducted by UK examiners.

[bobster1]

Hi Cpt KC
I am sharing the apartment with 2 people who are doing conversions from faa, and they are both testing today, yes there are some differences like in the states flight levels start at 18000 feet, so they have not used QNH, transition alt, transition level etc, obviously goes with out saying its a failure if you forget to change, there are some rather large mountains around the airports here so you can see the importance of getting that correct, from what I here it seems there are a fair few differences between the 2, I will see if I can get one of them to PM you later on today with their thoughts..
All the best

[bigbadjetdriver]

The CAA examiners have great concern with Spanish "schools" their direct quote was "they are on borrowed time".

The Spanish schools recently rejected an audit from a CAA panel examiner which has started to get Captain Lander on the case.

My airline laughs at Spanish CV's - which I'm sure you people will argue but that is the fact.

I have a couple of friends in UK FTO's who are now dealing with Spanish IR renewals, and also SIM prep for airline jobs - they can't believe the standard these schools are producing - frankly it's frightening.

£5900 for an IR in Spain
£11000 for an IR in UK

A job - Priceless.

:ugh:

[bobster1]

I have said before you cant tar a whole countrys FTOs´with the same brush.
I have heard many stories re certain companies in Spain, but Aerodynamics Malaga has 1st class training, and others will agree, even the ones who have successfully passed sim checks recently Im sure, its people like you who give the country a bad name because of what you have heard/witnessed from other schools and hear say.
There are good schools in Spain.

My airline laughs at Spanish CV's :rolleyes: most dont

Poor standards on renewal, well thats down to the individual, after a year not flying IR then I would imagine anybody could be a bit rusty. So if that person needed a bit of a refresher, then 10hrs in a FNPT2 at 140 GBP p/h total 1400
Its still a massive saving on UK, whos prices dont normally include A/C for test or test fees, so the cost is considerably more.
As for your friends who are currently dealing with people at there FTOs, it would be more relevant if you found out where these "frighteningly bad" people trained, otherwise its a pointless comment.


The CAA examiners have great concern with Spanish "schools" their direct quote was "they are on borrowed time
What has the CAA got to do with Spanish schools? genuine question

Final word, what about all the currently employed pilots in Spain and around the world who trained in Spain, should they not be in the air?

[vamos]

Can anyone recommend a school in Spain, and preferably in Madrid, where I can do a JAA-PPL in English? (I have already done my written exams.)

[CaptainKC]

I know a few recent first officers have gone to turbo prop positions straight from Aerodynamics. Word of mouth is that they are good, professional and the JAA sylabus is the same where ever you go, ability of student and quality of instruction makes the difference. I have decided to do the full course with Aerodynamics after coming from the US. There seems to be a few have a go at each other posts, which frankly have nothing to offer the thread. Anyone with first hand expeirence or knows anyone who has done the Aerodynamics please contact me.

Thank you
Cpt KC:ugh:

[moggiee]

What has the CAA got to do with Spanish schools? genuine question
The CAA has the right to refuse to recognise a Spanish licence or rating. The fact that the UK and Spain are both JAA/EASA members does not confer automatic recognition of licences. As bigbadjetdriver says, this is already a matter of concern at the CAA.

A few years back the CAA was refusing to recognise Spanish engineers licences.

[Alex Whittingham]

Are you sure moggiee? If the licence or rating was fully JAR compliant I don't think they can refuse to recognise it.

[moggiee]

Alex - according to the advice I have been given, that is the case and in fact I am told the Dutch are already doing so.

Of course, it can only be regarded as "fully JAR compliant" if the standards of training an examining meet those required by JAR-FCL.

[RVR800]

What is needed is an international method of organising civil aviation in such a way that standards are universal.

Of course we all realise that the truth that dare not speak its name in all this is that a lot of this is "vested interest dressed up as a safety concern"

We are after all talking very seriously about jobs here (Belgrano included)

My own view is that Spain in becoming the Florida of Europe and many will elect to go South to save money.

One question: do Spanish airline pilots train in Spain and is the safety record good? Answer: Yes and Yes

[Nearly There]

Whilst attending full time ground school, one of the instructors commented that it was wise to do CPL in the UK and IR at one of the better schools in Spain ie FTE or Aerodynamics, reason being because of the huge amount of money saved.

Saying its rare for people to walk out of training and into an airline job, therfore the money saved will cover the cost of doing the FI rating.
Then it becomes not a matter of where you have trained but the hours you have gained after finishing training.

I have a friend on his type rating course for FR, who did his IR in Spain, also on his course and other courses of recent have been OAT Integrated students, highlighting the fact that spending considerably more money for UK training at one of the top schools does not guarantee you a job.
Who is the wise one? and what is the future of flight training in the UK? VAT on training, extortionate fuel costs and the CAA fees well how they can justify them is beyond me, yet again the UK is crippling one of its own industries and people are investing there money abroad. :ugh:

[mlee]

Hi, I’m out at Aerodynamics as we speak, due to sit my ME IR skill test shortly and I’ve been nothing but impressed with the school.

Regards Mark. :D

[supramkiv]

I have a Spanish ME/IR, completed at Aerodynamics Malaga and want to give an unbiased view.

IMO as a school A.M. is a good school, has a good sim and sticks to their prices as published, but there are problems.

Most of the sim instructors dont actually hold ME/IR's, and through some bizarre loop can instruct in the sim as part of some form of intergrated course they are part of. There is a fair mish-mash of instruction given through the sim part which can be conflicting.

Once I reached the a/c, there were 2 instructors. One was good but worked to death and fell asleep a couple of times during the flights. The other is extremely arrogant and IMO was a classic example of the reason CRM was introduced.

There is a big thread on A.M. which shows the good and bad, but as a whole I dont regret the decision to train with them. They were good value for money and refreshingly stuck to the quoted price for the course.

Now for the big problem with Spanish IR's from my perspective. I believe with the training received from a Spanish FTO and with alot of self study on rant and study of various books that I'm a competant IR pilot and deserved to pass the test. However I have back seated IR skill tests during my training and witnessed some shocking errors during the test and a pass still awarded and I personally did not have to demonstrate any NDB work at all.

IMO you can be a good IR pilot trained under the Spanish system, but you can also be to a low standard and still slip through, which contributes to the poor reputataion of Spanish IR's.

When I sat the interview for my first jet job as a low hour pilot, which I got, the interviewer (who was a senior captain) didn't either know or care about the fact it was a spanish IR, it was JAA and that was that. I had a tough sim check with the company and had to demonstrate the same skills that a UK trained IR pilot had, or an FAA + JAR conversion pilot had to demonstrate.

Good luck with whichever path you choose! :ok:

[bobster1]

Most of the sim instructors dont actually hold ME/IR's, and through some bizarre loop can instruct in the sim

How long ago was it when you where there, I have just finished in the sim today, and maybe I have been lucky because I have had 3 instructors during this phase and all 3 are fATPL and in the position a lot of instructors are in i.e building hours to move onwards and upwards.

1 failed interview recently with FR and another has progressed through 1st stage of selection with a Spanish airline but cant remember company he said.

I will feedback when I start in aircraft on monday, not heard any bad stories from the couple of UK/Eire guys that are on this phase already.

[supramkiv]

I finished in May, to be fair alot of their experienced instructors had left very recently (off the top of my head to Kingfisher) so I was left with relatively inexperienced instructors, this situation hopefully (and by the sounds of things) has improved which is good to hear as I would recommend the school.

However I can only tell what my actual experience at the time was, the A.M. thread would be a better place to judge how things currently are.

[davidathomas42]

Just had checkride there today, did the 15 Hour Conversion Course, and have to say I am very happy with the school.

its the first school I have been to where I have known the plan, you get a course folder on day one that lays out the ground school you do, the 7sim sessions and the 2 training flights, so you can go home study the lesson plan and approch plates the day before, even fly them on FS2004 like I did to be familier, I had my flights schedualed after my room mates and so we sat and flew the sim together to moniter to get extra pointers and that was well worth doing as your SA is much better when just watching and so you can apply what you learn in your own sim session much better.

the Duchess was tech when I was to start flying so I switched to the Seneca Turbo for an extra 155euros instead of waiting 3 or 4 days for the duchess to be up and running again and so flew with just 1 day break from the sim, finished training on the friday and did the test Tuesday as no tests over the weekend.

the normal examinor was off ill so they flew in a guy from Madrid who was a great guy, ex military I belive and plenty of experiance, went up did the business and landed,,, have to say that after the training and doing the MCC the two weeks before this i felt the sharpest I have ever been flying and I think this has a lot to do with the way the training is layed out from day one.

My reccomendation is go there, its a good school who has there S*** together and apart from the aircraft upgrade I paid the price quoted! very happy.

[RVR800]

A friend of mine went to Spain and he had no problems. He saved a shed load of cash and is now spending his money on building hours ME solo rather that flying round NDB holds for hours.
When will NDBs be removed in the UK as I know many have gone in the US already?

[Hsifalcon]

HI can anyone please give me the address for aerodynamics website. I am interested in renewing my ME IR at this school on the seneca 2 aircraft.

Thanks