The F-111 is an interesting bit of kit!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

There is an article in today's local rag about the F-111's which are in town at the moment, playing war games.

According to my flight planning program the V35B will do Amberley - Townsville (600 nm) in 3 hrs 45 min (nil wind).

The Rat's B737's do Brisbane - Townsville (600 nm) in 1 hr 40-45 min.

According to the article in todays paper quoting Sqdn Ldr Joe Bloggs, the F111's came up last night in about 45 min, but could have done it in 17 min had they been allowed to use the whip.

600 nm in 17 min - man that is motoring!

Dr :8

PS: I guess the moral of the story is if you get the urge to try to outrun an F111 - don't bother!

[Jabawocky]

Think the 16 min is optomistic. Bit of basic maths suggests about 22 min at Mach2.5, plus some climb and descent, so even arriving in the circuit like you do in the FTDK:eek: will still be a bit over the 25 minute mark.

Love to hear what a local pig driver thinks it would take.

Must be a blast, if you are not paying the fuel bill:ooh:

J

[kiwi chick]

...or the resulting laundry bill... :ooh:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

KC, I thought it might have been a bit optimistic but the maths is too hard for me. Now you have gone and shattered my fantasy!

Sorry! 600 nm in 25 min - geez those things are a bit lethargic!

Dr :8

[HotDog]

This might have sped it up a bit:ok:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m246/adamtakach/DSC00569-1.jpg

[dreamjob]

Only a little bit! :}

[kiwi chick]

Hahaha FTDK... would love to take the credit for that, being a Maths geek and all, but it was actually ya mate Jaba who burst your bubble... ;)

wouldn't it be just AWFUL being made to fly one of them? :}

sigh..... :(

[Buster Hyman]

Well, they are protecting Kiwi airspace too KC...a girl can still dream!;)

[Capn Bloggs]

wouldn't it be just AWFUL being made to fly one of them?
Yes it would, It's only a bl@@dy bomber. All it does well is go fast in straight lines.:yuk:

[slackie]

It might just go in straight lines but it certainly does it in style!!
http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v153/233/2/707881562/n707881562_416086_9323.jpg

[XRNZAF]

My tomahawk can do that!!!!! ..... :ugh:

[slackie]

My Tomahawk can do that....but does it set of every car alarm in the carpark in the process???:eek::D:ok:

And if we're talking PA38, I'd start worrying when the wings start moving!!

[XRNZAF]

haha yep, coz that right there would be followed by the stall/spin/crash.... :\ 112 hp on a good day is the main problem I guess!

[Howard Hughes]

if you get the urge to try to outrun an F111 - don't bother!
Max rate turn just above the stall should do it, one would imagine F-111's don't turn that well at twice the speed of sound...:rolleyes:

[WannaBeBiggles]

Bloggs, don't underestimate our little pigs. Some F15's found out the hard way at Red Flag one year :cool:

[Taildragger67]

All it does well is go fast in straight lines.

And fly supersonic at less than 500' AGL :eek::} (until the TFR chucks a wobbly, then :eek::eek:)

And scare the bejesus out of anyone underneath, when it sneaks up on you at over M1 from having come in on said straight line and it's gone before you even knew it was there...

And it looks the absolute bl00dy business (even just sitting on the flight line). Big, pointy, low and mean with lots of swept-back leading edges - :ok:

Loved those Volvo ads from a few years back, where a Volvo drag-raced a Piggy - the ovlov got out of the blocks faster, but then the pig driver kicked in the burner and away he went. Final shot was a head-on of the pig taking off over the ovlov. :ok:

[Pedalz]

"Think the 16 min is optomistic. Bit of basic maths suggests about 22 min at Mach2.5, plus some climb and descent, so even arriving in the circuit like you do in the FTDK:eek: will still be a bit over the 25 minute mark.

Love to hear what a local pig driver thinks it would take.

Must be a blast, if you are not paying the fuel bill:ooh:

J"

Who said they were going to land:O

"Bombs Away"

[ScottyDoo]

Some F15's found out the hard way at Red Flag one year

I believe it was only ONE Eagle. Anyone can get lucky, even in a pig!!

Didn't a Macchi get a Hornet kill back in K89??

[zlin77]

Former F/O of mine was a PIG Driver, said it was good for 800 Kts. IAS at sea level.

[Keg]

But only if they had the paint to put back on the leading edges after it burns off with the heat! :eek:

[Lodown]

On the subject of comparisons with the Tomahawk, I had the dubious pleasure of flying Tomahawks when stall to spin was a regular training procedure. Used to look out the back during the spin. The F111 has moveable wings, but I bet it doesn't have a movable rudder fin like the Tomahawk!

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Have seen 830 at about 500ft off the coast of BNE once - the jet loves being let loose, and there were no adverse write ups afterwards.

I doubt very much 16 mins AMB-TSV claim though :hmm:. You obviously can't fly supersonic overland, so you'd need to draw a line to equivalent start and finish points off the coast, then you'd need a real good runup!

I'd say you'd need 23-25 mins minimum, and that's if the donks could handle an all-out run for that long! Would be fun trying though!

The Yanks used to say there was NOTHING that could catch their F models apart from the MiG-25 and SR-71. Knew an exchango who saw 900kts on the deck up at Cold Lake in Canada once!!! :eek:

Unfortunately, the Hornet would be lucky to get a third of the way before expiring! :}

[bizzybody]

Thats intresting to hear about the hornet running out of puff. Was under the understanding they were the ducks nuts.

Love to find out what the fuel burn would be at those speeds

Bizz

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Somewhere in the conversation we have lost 1 minute. The article in the local rag quoted Sqdn Ldr Bloggs as saying "17 min Amberley to Townsville if we were allowed", ie flat chat direct over land.

I am no aeronautical engineer but one has to wonder why they don't use the same basic design and build a new Pig with new millenium technology. There doesn't seem to be anything out there that can match it with a Pig for beating the crap out of someplace.

Dr :8

[aileron_69]

And while they're at it a civilian version so I can get one too!!

[kmagyoyo]

When doing engine air tests in R677 off the coast of Brisvegas we would start the run at FL300 @ 300 KIAS. Level accel to 630KIAS then climb @ 630 into M1.9 up to FL500 (alt limit without a pressure suit).

The last instrument readings were taken at M1.9 but it would have been rude not to see how fast it would go..while you were there and all :E The fastest I ever saw was M2.25 at Fl500 closely followed by double compressor stalls which tends to put an end to the fun.

As most of the wings leaked we only got airborne with 27K so started the Mach run with around 22ish K of gas, which would see you finish with around 8K. Min fuel was 3K. Its been a while since I flew around that neck of the woods but 17 minutes sounds a bit hypothetical ie 'if-i-had-magic-never-ending-cant-run-out-fuel-tanks' I could also fly to L.A. in 3 hours.

However, done the 'legal' speed limit of M0.95 with a 100+ Knot tail wind YBTL- YAMB which a; got the controllers attention as the ground speed was 700+ knots and b; made the transit a bit more bearable. Oh yeah, that wasn't even in mini-burner just mil thrust in a light jet :cool:

CAVEAT its been about 4 years /1034797 beers and two different A/C types since I flew it so some of the numbers are a bit rusty :bored:

[mechchick]

Well we have Pigs and Hornets up here in Townsville now - its excellent sitting right at the edge of the tarmac at work watching them come in right over the top of you :)

(oh I am on the Regiment side of the tarmac lol)

[OhForSure]

A mate recently visited Edinburgh and met a few pig drivers in town for the airshow. He said the oldest wouldn't have been a day over 25. Other three looked to be no older than 21! :*

Jealous doesn't begin to describe me :{

[slackie]

I met "Fish" at the WOW '06 after show dinner...he drove the Pig during the show...tell you what...he couldn't wipe the smile off his face (looked remarkably like a Pitts Grin)...seemed he rather enjoyed polling the Pig round the Wanaka basin.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Used to work at RAAF Amberley and yes most of the pig drivers are pretty young, and some of the drivers and nav's of the fairer sex are just plain pretty! :E

I believe the youngest ever pig driver was 19, but unfortunatly he bought the farm (through no fault of his own).

[mavrik1]

bad as it sounds
Its nice to know we have an aircraft that can reach from one edge of oz to the opposite in the smallest amount of time and drop mini nucs as required if such a invasion from the north was to be!
I dont understand the need for F-18's as they are usless for our enviroment as everything is miles apart and we don't assalt, but i surpose it keeps the US counterparts happy just like our massive billion dollar orders for JSF to help america win thier wars.
The truth is no company has built a aircraft that suits our enviroment and out performs the F111, it will still be needed for years to come, lets hope it lasts! Nothing can go from A-B that fast with such a payload that could cause such destruction. Just as australia requirer's

[Taildragger67]

WannaBeBiggles,

It was Mark Fallon (http://www.f-111.net/Mark-Speed-Fallon/); driver at 19, in 1982.

Killed in a F111, 1986.

RIP, Per Ardua Ad Astra.

[Defenestrator]

Just went to the link Taildragger67. Such a terrible shame. What a great accomplishment for such a young lad. I've faved this thread to show my young fella what can be achieved with hard work and dedication. I'm tipping him into the military for his tertiary studies. It's such a wonderfull opportunity for a young person. Ah to be 18 again......

D

[VH-XXX]

If you want a Civilian go-fast machine, you'll have to get yourself a Javelin when they get certified. Probably more reliable than a used L39.

That's a bloody shame. He barely looks 16 in one of those pics.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Thats intresting to hear about the hornet running out of puff. Was under the understanding they were the ducks nuts.

Sorry - should have clarified. Expired through lack of fuel, not any reliability issues.

Whilst I would categorise a Hornet as "ducks nuts" and I really enjoyed the grunt the Pig has (grunt! get it?? :hmm:...hmmm, yeah, anyway...) you can soooo much more in a Hornet, especialy in HUG2.2 form!

[luvmuhud]

mavrik1, if you can improve your spelling and grammar to that of a 9 year old, you have a great future in wargaming for the ADF.

I can see it now...a fleet of tired F-111s to drop mini nukes on the swarming hordes to the north.

I agree mate... the threat from the hundreds of Sukhois with active missiles moving into our theatre is grossly overstated. Who needs an air to air capability when you can fly fast.





I feel the need....the need...for speed.



High five!!

[Trojan1981]

I Have seen a 777 do 700Kt GS ENR Singo-Auckland on Sy radar...
The Pigs did well in Red Flag...just watch out for those stationary Hinds:}

[18-Wheeler]

Who needs an air to air capability when you can fly fast.
Doing that just makes you a better target for the R73 heat-seeker (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-11.htm).
An F111 cannot out-manoeuver an R73, nor outrun one.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The air to air argument is, in my view, overdone in respect of Indonesia.

When we lose the F111's capabilities that will be a great loss indeed...the loss of the ability to reduce Indonesia's command and control and leadership to ashes from bases within Australia....not to mention destroying a great many of their aircraft on the ground and/or crater their runways to the point of uselessness.

I am not suggesting the F111 kept in service in perpetuity but it's capability is a VERY big deal and that needs maintaining in perpetuity.

What else goes as far, as fast, as low with as much...and can do so in any weather day or night?

What hope does an Indon Sukhoi pilot have of stopping an F111 at 200'/night/in weather/in terrain typical of Indonesia from reaching it's target, destroying it and returning home?

I wouldn't have thought there was much chance...and ex F111 pilots I have worked with over the years are adamant that that is the case.

The Iraqi airforce had far greater potential that the Indon version has ever had and it lasted mere days before the Iraqi pilots, sick of being mere targets, turned and ran their jets into Syria...or refused to take off, during the first stouche...the second was a bomber war backed up with ground forces...and was over in days.

Let face it...we are NEVER going to have a conventional war with Indonesia...as in bomb/beat/occupy...what we need is a big enough stick to keep them fearfull of upsetting us too much....the F111 has been that stick for a very long time.

[Defenestrator]

Upsetting.....Sad......but true Chuck. Let's hope it never comes to that.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Not wanting to get flamed here, I have to say first up, I worked with the F111, there is NO aircraft I am more amazed by than this "beautiful" creature... BUT....

There is no one reason to replace them, however there are a few main ones.

1. Airframes - they ARE getting a little old and unfortunately they have a finite life and it will just get more and more expensive to keep them flying. We have a fair few F111's we've bought from the bone yards (check out RAAF Amberley google maps, and you'll see some of them near the flight line ;)) However we can only canibalise them for so long. But the finite life is not the ultimate arguement.

2. Australia has invested considerable money (BILLIONS) in an integrated force, one of the big ones being Wedgetail. This will allow all our forced to be integrated via an extensive network, with pilots getting live feeds from ground crew on targets, command centres providing live tatics, allies providing intelligence we migh not have etc etc
The F111 is not currently an EW (Electronic Warefare) platform and the upgrades to it would be very expensive, so when you take in to consideration the cost of maintaining them and their finite life then it becomes economically unviable.

The super hornet and the JSF are EW ready and come with standardised software and hardware.

I guess the arguement could be simplified down to the 747/A380/A340 vs. 777/787/A350 arguement... Yes four engines are better than two, and yes a larger a/c can move more people from A to B... but companies strategires change and all of a sudden the two engine ETOPS operations start winning out... Time will tell if they were right or not.

Just my two cents. :E

[Taildragger67]

Defenestrator,

Agree your last sentiment (about being 18 again, with all the choices in the world ahead of you)...

Mate a youngster could do worse than go into the mil' for tertiary studies - ADFA has gained a solid reputation in its 20 years now and has pumped out some fine, educated officers. But, there are also opportunities to get mil' sponsorship whilst completing tertiary studies outside ADFA - eg. for law or medicine.

IMHO, the main negative is, depending on the service and branch chosen, these days one has to balance the benefits with the increasing risk of being sent into harm's way in skirmishes which might be forgotten about in a few years...

[Buster Hyman]

...So long as they can adjust to civvy street TD. I've seen some shockers over the years! (No worse than the regular "chip on shoulder" graduates mind you!):rolleyes:

[nomorecatering]

So if the F111 airframe is so good, why cant new ones be built with a derivative of the F22, F25.F18E avionics. New airframe, modern engines and electrics would be a fearsome weapon.

What would be the closest equivalent. F15E?

[WannaBeBiggles]

So if the F111 airframe is so good, why cant new ones be built with a derivative of the F22, F25.F18E avionics. New airframe, modern engines and electrics would be a fearsome weapon.


Because the F111 is NOT a stealth aircraft and the only reason it is that good is because Australia has made it that good through our block upgrade programs. We righted many wrongs that were inherent from the original design.

Plus the development costs for such an aircraft are not trivial.

Also, most aircraft developments have been leaning towards multi role functions, such as the Super Hornet.

What would be the closest equivalent. F15E?

F15 is a multi role aircraft (strike fighter), much different to the F111, being soley a strike aircraft.

Not sure what you'd classify an equivalent platform... All I can think of is maybe a B1... but that is MUCH bigger, is faster and carries more bombs, not to mention requires more crew. And at around a BILLION $ a piece a little out of Australia's price range! Plus I don't think they are something the US will export.

[Launchpad McQuack]

All I can think of is maybe a B1... but that is MUCH bigger, is faster and carries more bombs


...and is also one of the few aircraft that looks as good as a Pig :ok:

I was seriously impressed by the impromtu 'Bone' display post-Avalon 2001 as it was leaving, and had a few drinks with the crew during the previous week...they all fly commerically (mostly freight Pilots) then fly the Bone in the weekend for fun...

...one can only dream :sad:

LP

[OpsNormal]

WannaBe, I enjoy your factual and well thought out posts, but to put this into perspective...

Because the F111 is NOT a stealth aircraft

Is the SU29/30 any more stealthy?

Apples and apples and all.

Regards,

OpsN.;)

[WannaBeBiggles]

Thanks OpsNormal,

what I meant in regards to the stealth capabilities is that all NEW developments that come out of the likes of Boeing and LM are stealthy or at least have a low radar signature.

Even if we took all the drawings of the fuselage, you'd still be left to create 10's or 100's of thousands (millions?) of new drawings to include the new avionics, engine, probably redesign the gear because it really doesn't need a gear that can sustain a carrier landing, which would then probably give some room for an extra equipment bay, fuel tank or even bomb storage... so your not talking a simple "plug and play" scenario, hence major expense and time would be required to develop a new aircraft from an existing airframe design.

Now if the market (Aust and Allies) dictates the need for a stealthy aircraft, you'd still be delivering an aircraft with all the bells and whistles in an old airframe that the market most likely not want.

Money well spent? Probably not, and that's why it hasn't been redeveloped.

And don't forget that when the new F111-X is finally ready for mass production our potential foes will, at the very least, be in the processed of adapting new radar, missile and stealth technologies which could render the F111-X a less formidable foe.

[Cap'n Arrr]

I've heard before that the F-111 has not Vne, it's only limited by skin temp. Now thats frickin awesome.:ok:

On a side note, is there any real reason (aside from pi**ing off Uncle Sam) that Aus hasn't considered any of the new Sukkhois themselves... the SU34 is one mean looking aircraft...

[WannaBeBiggles]

On a side note, is there any real reason (aside from pi**ing off Uncle Sam) that Aus hasn't considered any of the new Sukkhois themselves... the SU34 is one mean looking aircraft...

From what I hear they are quite a capable aircraft, I believe the yanks sent some F15's against the (was it the indian airforces SU's?) a while back as part of a war game and the aircraft were quite equally matched.

However it goes back to the argument of having an integrated defence system, and when you want to integrate with your allies you use a common network infrastructure ;)

Another argument could be if your opponents use the same platform as you, then they will be a lot more aware of your capabilities, limitations (read: weaknesses) as opposed to gear they cannot get their hands on. ;)

[SIDE NOTE: Interestingly this was my 111th post :E]

[Magoodotcom]

On a side note, is there any real reason (aside from pi**ing off Uncle Sam) that Aus hasn't considered any of the new Sukkhois themselves... the SU34 is one mean looking aircraft...
Yeah, let's buy it cos it looks "mean". I mean, the Chinese will just turn tail and run when they see that thing with RAAF roundels on it, right??? :hmm::rolleyes::yuk:

[Trojan1981]

Bah! The F-111 is an underperforming trainer compared to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning
As for a civvy version,
http://www.thundercity.com/sortie.htm

:}

[WannaBeBiggles]

Bah! The F-111 is an underperforming trainer compared to

:ooh:

Your just asking to get flamed aren't you! :p

[Cap'n Arrr]

Easy magoo, just heard theyre very capable, and thought they looked the part. No need to get shirty.

[Trojan1981]

Obviously kidding....you must admit though, the Lightning flight would be one increadible ride

[StallsandSpins]

maybe someone will start a thunder city like organisation here with F111's when they retire them.........Im sure CASA would love that :eek:

[gaunty]

We've had this convo before but the recent 4 Corners programme got me going again. :{:ugh::ugh::ugh: There was the distinct ring of rational truth in it.

Can the gazzilion dollar wet dream, spend the money on some more FIII airframes and upgrades and get 3/4 gazzillion change and a brilliant multirole aircraft, who needs to stay and fight when you can run. Buy a bunch of the new Sukhois, is all we need for the foreseeable and we still have over 1/2 gazillion dollars change. Tell Kaman where to put their vintage helos :rolleyes: and replace them with something that actually works.

And then we have enough money to fix the medical system for good 'n all and renew the derelict infrastructure around the country and we still got maybe 1/4 gazzillion dollars change. Boeing might not like it but hey as they say, tell it to the Marines.

[ftrplt]

There was the distinct ring of rational truth in it.


naah, not really.

[Taildragger67]

Gaunty,

Once again in English, please? :confused:

[M14_P]

The F111s were mad, they should go one better and bring an F18 over here.
Roll on Easter.

[Pinky the pilot]

I'm going to stick my neck out here, but a number of years ago I worked with a Pom whose Father was employed in the program, who claimed that the TSR2 (which was unfortunately cancelled by the then Labour [That's how the poms spell it!!] government of the day) would have been superior in most if not all respects to the F111 and probably with further development would have continued to be so!

Anyone out there have any info which may or may not confirm?:hmm:

[Taildragger67]

Yeah Pinky I've heard that too... th eirony apparently was that the TSR2 was cancelled in favour of an order of F111Ks (as the pom version was to be designated).

When that didn't happen, the RAF had to hang onto several types - Lightning, Bucc (all good, but even then getting a bit long in the tooth) until the Tornado came along. And that was apparently beset by compromises to suit the Panavia partners (Germany and Italy). A fine aircraft, but I'd suggest not a patch on the Pig.

Actually that's a good question - have Pigs & Tornados ever mixed it up, eg. at Nellis?

(I hope this link works):
Here is a Google Map of one on the ground at Ohakea (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=ohakea&sll=48.864715,8.525391&sspn=22.008519,73.828125&ie=UTF8&ll=-40.199634,175.381199&spn=0.002213,0.003927&t=h&z=18&om=1).

[Booger]

I was waiting with baited breath for this one to pop-up!!!
Let me, if I may be so bold, to express my opinion on the matter of the infamous claims of "superiority" of the TSR2 over, well, every aircraft that has ever existed.
Firstly, I would like to retort in Haiku:

Fabled British Plane,
Uglier Than Sin Itself,
Total Piece Of Sh!t

And, if the meaning of the Haiku is too obscure for some, here is a metaphor I think is very appropriate: About 40 years ago, whilst out fishing in a tinnie in Port Phillip Bay, I caught a Blue Whale using 10 pound line and a hand reel. You may not have seen this but, trust me when I tell you (and my friend's brother Davo who was on the tinnie will back me up) it was without out a doubt the greatest fishing event EVER. Okay, now when I say I caught the whale, whilst not ever actually landing it on the tinnie (the fisheries department came along just as I was hauling it in & demanded I release it immediately) it was as good as in the boat. And when I say I hooked it, well, it never actually took the bait, but it gave it a loooong hard look. And when I say it was a blue whale, well, it er, umm... looked like a blue whale. It may have in fact been a flathead... but it was (may have been) a BIG one!! TRUST ME!:}

My point is this. Everyone has a "one that got away" story that grows in stature as the years pass. The TSR2 story seems to posess an especially exaggerated list of capabilities. I understand the fervour and national pride stirred up in people when it comes to home grown products, but, there has to be a "realism" element in assessing an aircraft that never proceeded pass the prototype stage!!. Yes I know it was politics that eventually killed the thing but come on, there wasn't any shortage of problems with it either!! Undercarriage, engines (serious problems with the Olympus fit in the TSR2 from memory) and as a result an almost entirely theoretical list of specs.

DISCLAIMER: I have flown the Pig hence have a soft spot for it, & of course I never flew the TSR 2. (nor do I know anyone who did). Also, I am no Aero Eng or TP but I reckon I'm a good judge of "horse flesh", and the old adage that "if it looks good it flies good" is true more often than not. Based on this and an up close and personal inspection of the airframe at Duxford Air Museum I feel confident in saying that the TSR2 was/would have been a total frickin' dog!!.

For a tactical/interdiction strike aircraft this thing was ENORMOUS...
* with a hideous slab sided rectangular fuselage and the smallest freakin' wing area for an aircraft of its size I have ever seen!!
* For its size (about 20% larger than a Pig) its internal weapons bay (an overly complex arrangement if ever there was one) was quite small.
* The tiny wings probably resulted in a wing loading higher than that of an F-104 (and we all know how well that turns!) and were clearly incapable of carrying large external stores, IF anything at all.
* Landing Gear?? I think you could have completed a Rubik's cube before the complex arrangement would have retracted.
*The Olympus engines, impressively large and powerful as they were, would have chewed through the juice like a fat chick with a Maccas shake and
any substantial fuel reserves (which I don't think it had) would have been for nought.

Anyway, the TSR2 is dead... Long live the TSR2!!:ok:

[Double Asymmetric]

Bloody Hell! :ouch:

Pleeeease...no one mention Eurofighter...I beleive Booger may have a demure, mild and unpassionate opinion on the virtues of that particular aircraft as well...

Incidently I think Carlo always offers balanced, informed and insightful opinions and I think he brings value to any discussion on Australian airpower. Discuss....

[Pinky the pilot]

Very good Booger but a little heavy on the sarcasm I should think.:=

I would'nt have a clue on the subject m'self! I was merely repeating what this pommy bloke told me of his Father's comments. His Dad was apparently an aeronautical engineer with the TSR2 program, so I took the comments at face value.

[Runaway Gun]

I vote Booger as next Flight Test Reporter for Australian Aviation magazine :D

[Magoodotcom]

I vote Booger as next Flight Test Reporter for Australian Aviation magazine.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.................

[WannaBeBiggles]

Come on, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and hey, Booger just sounds passionate to me, and what the aviation industry without passion?

I only worked WITH the F111 and most say I have an huge soft spot for it, so I can't even begin to think how passionate someone who actually flew the thing would be! ;)

Now back on subject. At the end of the day TSR2 never made it to a production phase, let alone past the first BUP or two. So the argument is really moot.

There really isn't anything that will match the F111 when it comes to "bang for your buck", but as discussed earlier this is no longer our primary focus and I'd be surprised with we ever see anything like the F111 again, except maybe in the form of a UACV. :{

I know that when that inevitable day comes and the F111 retires, there will be barely a dry eye at RAAF Amberley.

[Buster Hyman]

I think it's sad that, whilst we may want an aircraft with the F111's capability & modern avionics/compatibility thrown in, we just cannot build one ourselves.

That boat sailed long ago.

[Spaz Modic]

Y'know, the PIG still has to be one of the best looking fast jets around.:D

[L J R]

1452 Kts Groundspeed is the fastest I have seen. - and yes it was in a Pig. [Mach2.5 and accellerating ](Not on the deck mind you - I only seem to recall 705K G/S - Not the record, but at least we did it for 300 miles!, somewhere off the Phillipines ISTR) However, on the deck, I have been faster, just never looked down to check - little busy doing the lookout piece whilst the radalt pings 90' - oops. Pity we had to slow down a tad to drop some of the 'old school' bombs we had in the '80s and '90s. ....and yes the F model would hum - but not quite for as long as the 'C'. At height, I'm convinced it (F-111C) would have done M3.....(probably about the time the paint would have melted). F111F is a little slower at height.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Sighhhhhh......thanks for that LJR. I heard that was quite regular to have a Pig come back with a bit less paint (Sometimes a panel or two) after a refit.

Still reckon pound for pound the Pig will throw more ordinance down range a lot further than any version of an 18.

[Taildragger67]

Back to my earlier question - have Pigs & Tornados ever gone head-to-head eg. at Red Flag?

Or, any interesting comparisons emerge from Gulf War I ops?

[Booger]

Taildragger,

for your edification, yes indeed the Tornado (GR4) and Pig have mixed it up in Flag/Nellis. I had the pleasure of participating in several such flights a couple of years ago. Whilst not going "head to head" (as strike aircraft it's a little hard to do that!) I have been in the same package as the Tornado boys... Magnificent operators who can teach the Aussies several thousand things about real world ops BUT, (antipodean pride causes me to puff my chest out here!) somewhat hamstrung by the tiddly-wink toy they call the "Tonka"!!!

Allow me to amplify by way of anecdote: My naviguesser for our Red Flag deployment happened to be an exchange RAF officer from the same GR4 squadron we were tasked to operate with. On one particular mission where we planned to egress a target in trail of said Tornado 5-ship, my Nav gave the RAF boys some shtick and told them we would "smoke them" on the way home. Of course, these boys were not about to be intimidated by a fourship of Piggies crewed by 7-criminals and one traitorous comrade. "We'll show you a clean pair of heels" came the Tornado CO's reply. Of course, my Nav "ordered" me to "blow them away at frickin' zot feet & x-thousand knots" in order to show the Pommie boys how we do it in Oz.

"OK" was my reply, knowing full well that post target egress plans often turn-to-poo as a result of Red Air stirring up the sh!te. Anyway, on this particular day we came off target and lo and behold, there were the Tonkas, being led by my Nav's former CO, right on track. Egged on by said Nav, who by this stage was screaming like a schoolboy at his first strip show, the 'burners were lit and away we went. Our four Piggies went below & between the GR4s and the one & only time I was game to look inside I saw 785knots and 200ft. Needless to say we went past Tornados like they were standing still. And kept going. And going. I think we ended up super for about 10 minutes... Not so unusual for the Pig but we were also so close to Area 51 I swear we could see the aliens with their glow sticks as we blasted by!!!

When we landed, my Nav was grinning like the proverbial Cheshire cat - and no prizes for guessing that he gave the RAF boys more than a few words in the deber..!

Before anyone accuses me of one-eyedness. I will stress the GR4 is a good machine, just a little hamstrung by limited fuel and an almost permanent requirement to carry external tanks, thereby further restricting the jet's performance. Oh, and Al, if you're reading this... Best. Mission. Ever!!:ok:

[Taildragger67]

Booger,

Thanks.

Double-:ok: !

[Clarie]

Booger I think you'll find the Tonkas were just cruising home. :rolleyes:

In a straight race using burner, a Tonka will smoke an F111 at low level. The Red Flag kill rate of Tornado F3 vs F111 was about 20 to 1 in favour of the Tornado.

[Keg]

I was talking to a QF colleague (former 3SQN FCI) once about the Avalon airshow and watching the Tornado putting on a great low pass and break out. His response was '.....only aeroplane to go 6G in a straight line....'

I guess the Tornado turning circle ain't that flash! :ok:

Booger. Great story. Keep them coming!

[Clarie]

That's interesting Keg. Why don't you ask your QF colleague what the current RAAF G limit is? :rolleyes:

[Buster Hyman]

Well, I enjoyed the anecdote too. Thanks Booger!

Now, for Clarie's benefit, does anyone have an anecdote about an F111 outrunning a Saturn V???;)

[Booger]

Clarie... maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate...!

I know you did the F3 exchange, but sheesh... "a Tornado would SMOKE a Pig at low-level"..!?!??! Mate, can I have some of that stuff you're smoking??

For starters, I was talking GR4, as evidenced by the multiple (and clearly cryptic) references to GR4 vice F3. Out of the 4 or so RAAF drivers I know who did the GR1/4 exhange, only one had EVER been supersonic in the thing!! And that was at high level!!! The reason??? They were ALWAYS carrying jugs/skyshadow/CBLS/whatever else that was either: a. Not rated super OR b. so draggy as to physically prevent them ever going super.

And yes, I am prepared to concede that an F3 may even have the LL top speed to (barely) trump the Piggy, but surely even you must acknowledge that without your jugs you could do that for about 10secs before you Bingo out... As opposed to the 10+ mins in the beast!

20 to 1 kill - ratio? Yeah, yeah I know, the B-111 is a "4G Sparrow suckin' piece of sh!t.." but come on - I would expect it to be MORE, the F3 is a "fighter" after all!!! I mean, that implies that at least one Pig nailed an F3 - there hasn't been anything that embarassing since Carloss was shot by that chick in the Mirage!!!

The only other time I recall that many F3 kills was in PB2000... when after a similarly disconcertingly high kill ratio some investigation revealed the F3 boys were claiming outrageously low PK shots as kills, based on the "future software upgrade we'll be getting". Turns out that without the <insert certain type of mid-course guidance technique here> they were using the "Malaysian stopwatch" method...

Bastards wouldn't even buy the beers at the bar for all their false kill calls!

Anyway, no more p!ssing contests for me tonight. That train has sailed.

Booyakasha knuck-boy!!!!:}

[max AB]

Aaaah Red Flag.... Take off, lockwire the levers in max AB (hey that's me), 30 minutes later, break the lock wire, slow down, dangle the dunlops and land....

[Clarie]

Booger, not me mate.

However, try 800+ knots on the GPS at 50 feet. Not "indicated" or US "marketing" numbers. Yes, it was -5 degrees but there was no wind. See you later EF-111A. The Electronic Pig didn't beat us back to base either. (Remember that?)

Sorry if I implied that a Pig nailed an F3 - not in my experience son! That's why I didn't buy you a beer.

[L J R]

You can have your 800 kts at the Leuchars Outer Marker, but try it at Gibralta with home plate as your div......

[Wombat35]

there hasn't been anything that embarassing since Carloss was shot by that chick in the Mirage!!!

Love it :}:}:}

I remember being in Willy when he aquired that name... VERY FUNNY... well not for him... good to see thing only got better from that! :}:}

Shot by a chick .. hat's off! :p

[Pinky the pilot]

Love the stories Booger, but could you explain what the "Malaysian stopwatch" method... is?

Keep the stories coming!:ok:

[Fliegenmong]

Likewise BOOGER ! - great stories :ok:

[Booger]

Well, first of all let me say this:

I'm tickled pink that someone (anyone!) is remotely interested in any stories I have to tell. But be warned, asking me for Pig stories is kinda like asking a crack whore for a cheap BJ: it seems like a good idea until you notice her herpes infested lips at the same time she starts unzipping your fly!

Anyway, to answer my fans (both of them):

Pinky the Pilot: The "Malaysian Stopwatch" method comment was in reference to a rather dubious kill assessment technique employed by our, ahem, northern neighbours in the BVR arena a few years back (can you guess who?!?:}). I preface all of this by stating from the outset that I am to fighter flying what Carloss is to social skills. And for those who don't know Carloss, let's just say it means I know sh!t-all about fighter flying. Anyway, I digress (as usual). Our 'northern neighbours' had acquired a new BVR missile, lets call it the BB10 Balamo so they don't know who or what I'm referring to. With limited operational (read eff-all) knowledge of said weapon, their wiley bandits came up with the galactically optimistic kill assessment method of launching the weapon, then counting to X seconds before calling a kill on the (normally unscathed) target. NOTE that X was the distance in nautical miles at time of launch. Let's just say that maths was never my strong point, but essentially it meant their 'Balamo' missile left the rails at ~Mach 4 and stayed at that speed until impact. And this was ignoring any target manouevre..! Suffice to say, it was a bullsh!t kill assement criteria, akin to saying "bang-bang you're dead!" in the playground.

Fliegenmong: Whaddya wanna hear next...?!? P!ssed idiot stories, going super in inappropriate places or other such "sheer airborne stupidity" stories?? YOU choose! (Remember those "choose your own adventure stories"... Here's YOUR chance to start your own Pig one!!)

:ok:

[Taildragger67]

Booger,

You can count me as a fan if you keep those stories coming!

I suspect most Aussie Prooners are Pig fans at heart (it looks like it means business even when its engines are cold and pin streamers hanging off it, the aviation version of the Brock Commie haring down Conrod Straight, so even if you're a Ford man, you still give it its due respect!), but most of us will never get to experience hands-off at 250' AGL and 500+ kts IAS at night, so have to do it vicariously through those who have. Hence you will find many interested would-like-to-have-beens soaking up any stories you have!

:ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Booger;going super in inappropriate places

That'll do me for starters! Let's hear 'em!:ok:

Oh yes, and the aftermath thereof, of course!:E:O

[Booger]

A youtube picture spells a thousand words...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8124lhm6d7o

(And no, that wasn't me. Thank fnck mine was never caught on tape!):eek:

[Buster Hyman]

TD...I totally agree that most Aussies would have a soft spot for the F111...but you lost me mentioning that Euro ****e, the Commodore!:=

[Wombat35]

(And no, that wasn't me. Thank fnck mine was never caught on tape!)


Ahhh Evans Head haven't seen that one for a while... lucky Nev :\

Wonder what happens when I push this lever just a little bit further!

[L J R]

Booger, you must be Sqn Cdr by now then me presumes??

[WannaBeBiggles]

Booger, who was the driver that did a nice low level barrel roll over the base a few years back before going on exchange?

Did he get a bit of a slap on the wrist for it?

Was an awesome sight, was swimming in the pool near H410 at the time. :ok:

[Fliegenmong]

I’m with Pinky, Booger! Inappropriate super stories! (and the aftermath of)

And yes I think we’ve all a soft spot for the pig. I was at the Amberley show a few years ago, and I was admiring (A8 – 272?) “The Boneyard Wrangler”, I think the greatest piece of tail art I have ever seen, great story behind the name too! :ok:

[Milt]

First flights in an F-111

Deep in the heart of Texas, memories of my second flight in an F-111 way back in the 70s will not diminish.
I think it was a G model with souped up engines. As a TP I had not seen anything higher than mach 1.4 previously. 1.4 was ho hum as we started an acceleration to a red line temp for the engines and climbing rapidly into the stratosphere. Passing through 52,000 ft we were exceeding mach 2.54 and the crew module glass was too hot to touch with a gloved hand. I tried a
4g steep turn to be convinced that one cannot turn rapidly at that speed.

Next back at low level on TFR - hard ride - a rollercoaster experience. My question to the GD TP was " Can the TFRadar see high tension power pylons?"
Response was the press of a button on the Inertial Nav system which locked in a waypoint for a microwave repeater tower about 20 nm away. The auto pilot took us straight at the tower only needing a minor correction. I could see the tower getting rapidly closer on an E scope. We were approaching the tower to knock off the top third still on hard ride. Self preservation made me involuntarilly grab for the stick to disconnect AP just as we zoomed up and over the tower. Very convincing but Ive often wondered whether I could do that on a dark night whilst being shot at!!

And that was in the early 70s. In the 90s with Pavetack we could have taken out that tower by placing a laser spot on it from wayback and lofting a weapon on to the illuminated target as we executed an escape manoeuver.

Still a very formidable aircraft.

[Jabawocky]

Can anything in current use aroud the world outrun a Pig, either high or low level. My understanding is it may not have the best defense.....but it can run!

J

[Fliegenmong]

And thank you Milt! :ok:

[Launchpad McQuack]

going super in inappropriate places


more more more!!! :} :ok:

LP

[OZZI_PPL]

...just a little off topic.
Just found this video of the crazy French doing their low flying thing. Don't think I've seen anything fly lower than these guys :ooh:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ba1_1197580323

[BombsGone]

OZZI_PPL always remember the record for low flying cannot be beaten only equaled!

[nomorecatering]

Love the video.

are these type of jets easy to fly at lo level, from the footage they seem like they are on rails, not a bounce or bobble. They go exactly where they are pointed.

Just how fast were they going at 20 ft, 500 kts?? very hard to judge.

[OZZI_PPL]

are these type of jets easy to fly at lo level ...... yeh piece of cake :)

[morno]

Pffft, nothin'. My grandma fly's F-111's at 5ft without TFR and doing Mach 2.5. That's how easy it is...

[OZZI_PPL]

Love the part at about 25 seconds, where he sneaks a look at the map :ooh: .... now that takes serious courage at that speed and altitude

[Taildragger67]

I had been hoping Milt would get involved here. Keep the stories coming!

Thread drift alert on

Buster, I'm not saying I like Commodores, just that I respected them when they had Brockie at the wheel.

I grew up with a succession of Fairmonts in the driveway so I am genetically a Ford man. Hence I have a problem these days when I rock up at the olds' place and there's a Calais in the garage. Just doesn't seem... right.

One more thing, Buster - as an Aussie in the UK, one can always determine the real Aussies from the wannabes by the application of a small test: just walk up and say "Mate, Ford or Holden?" Any real Aussie will just snap back an answer without even thinking about it.

I guess we could convert that here to "Pig or Tonka?"

Thread drift alert off

[slackie]

They do pretty well without the training wheels down too!
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=_qoS6_ogXh8
:ok:Nice Job!:ok:

[Buster Hyman]

Right, gotcha. Walk up, say "Ford or Holden?" and if they pause, you say "Ok, pooftah it is!";):p:ouch::suspect:

[komac2]

here's one from a guy who flies aussie hornets at present.

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb0Geqau2eo&feature=PlayList&p=C10A9D1A09FEDB69&index=14

[mustafagander]

At the risk of a little bit of thread drift.
Back in the mid 80s when I was sailing our 37ft cat up the coast one late spring night - imagine that, peace and quiet at sea in a beautiful, well behaved boat sailing in around 10 -12 kts wind speed making about 8kts boat speed. We were a bit north of Coffs headed for the Whitsundays. I had the con with 1 other on deck around midnight when, all of a sudden we see lights, strong lights, all over us, and what we later realised were A/B flames right over our mast about 60 ft above the OG, must be that high, the mast is 57 ft, as this a/c rotates and climbs above us. Then the NOISE arrives!!! It is safe to say that it scared about 9 different colours of sh1t out of both of us as well as getting the off watch on deck in 2 milli seconds. My intro to the mighty F111. We later discovered that the range was active and I guess the boys were out for a bit of fun. The radar must be bloody good, though - it's a tupperware boat with very little metal apart from the mast.
After my heart rate came down from stratospheric heights, I was lost in awe for an a/c that can do this stuff, given that I am an a/c tragic since birth.
Oh yeah, the Whitsundays cruise was AWESOME - much more fun than you can imagine or I can describe. Three months passed like a day!!!! :ok:

[L J R]

...Do you have an actual date??....he checks his logbook!

BTW - likely to be 300' above you (manually at night in those days) - or 200' if doin' the TF thing. If 'close to midnight' the lads were probably racing home for the 11pm Amberfield closure (daylight savings time faff involved - NSW Vs Qld local time??)

[Fliegenmong]

So where did Booger go?, I was awaiting some more Pig tales :confused:

[Booger]

Sorry Fliegenmong, had to see a man about an ENORMOUS dog!!

Hmmm, more stories - let me see... Now, there was that time with that ladyboy in Penang (man those surgeons are GOOD:}) but I guess that's not what you're after!

Well, let me think - ah yes, there was this one time at band camp (or it could have been many years ago in Hawaii for exercise RIMPAC) where I managed in one sortie to:

a. get verbally abused by the angriest boom operator in the world for taking about 7 plug-in attempts to get a measly 5000lbs of fuel, whilst keeping 8 F-15s waiting with my pathetic efforts (in my defence, I had about 150hrs in the jet and was therefore predictably a shower of sh!t).

b. saw my first "super cloud" whilst running away bravely from the carrier CAP of F-14s: We were ~700 knots on the deck when I looked over at lead, only to see a small black nose cone sticking out of a enormous condensed shockwave. Tropical humidity combined with supersonic aerody can have some spectacular effects, and

c. had a "doggers" stoush with some F-14s memorable for two things, firstly, after merging and 180 degrees of turn, thanks to our low fuel state/light weight were still neutral (that's impressive if you knew how sh!t the Pig was at turning!!!) and then came the highlight of my life to date: In the middle of the "fight" the Nav leant over and tapped the fuel gauge and said in a loud American twang: "**** Mav, we don't have the fuel for this man!!!".

Now, maybe it's just me, but I thought at the time that was the funniest thing in the world. Ever. We were lucky to be able to land after that as neither of us could barely see due to tears.

I should probably point out I was doing a lot of drugs during my time in the RAAF so these things probably don't seem as funny now.:E

Anyway, I would have posted a piccie or three but I can't work out how. It keeps asking for a URL (???) when I click on the "add piccy" jibber.

No smart@rse comments please. There weren't no fancy damn fan-dangled computer inter-web thingies in the Piggy.:ok:

[TCFOR]

Quote: "At the risk of a little bit of thread drift"

On the subject of noise; a long time back in the UK I flew my own Stinson 108 into a weekend airshow at RAF Lakenheath. Private arrivals were permitted early Sat am, but no departures until Sunday pm, so I slept in a tent beside the dispersal area. Well, at 5am Sunday morning the bloody Vulcan arrived and announced the fact with a low pass right over where I was sleeping...NOISE you have never heard anything like it! I genuinely nearly soiled myself.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

C'Mon 'Booger',

I'm sure that you can arrange sumpthin' - with your obvious talent for telling a good yarn. You have that rare talent based on obvious experience.
Please give us 'mere mortals' a litttle 'taste'.

'Tis Christmas.

You'all have to go get the 'grandies' / the kids / somebody else's grandies / kids to push the buttons for ya......

Now.....'Straighten up and fly right'.........:ok::ok:

PLEASE...........:ok::ok:

Best Regards!!!

:D:D

[Fliegenmong]

A "doggers" stoush?
We non military types hey?
Keep em coming Booger!:ok:

[L J R]

Is there still a dedicated 'display-crew' in the mighty Pig?

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Yep - last I heard Fish was still the driver but I'm not sure who the Nav is these day.

[slackie]

Spoke with Fish at WOW '06 and he said at that stage that Wanaka was his last show before flying a desk...good to hear he's still in the correct seat (hopefully)!

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Things must've changed as he was still flying (and instructing) with 6SQN when I caught up with him in July/August.

I hear Merro also does displays too?