3 man long-haul. Pandora's box?

[Sheko]

Dear colleages,

This is far too important to miss and therefore surely worthy of a new thread. To quote a comment on a separate thread:

"It seems we have resumed that old habit of shooting ourselves in the foot again. The pilot reps on the joint CAD AFTL committee have "agreed in principle to extending the 3 man AFTL to 14 hours". They are now just arguing the conditions that it can be used under. I thought the pilot reps were there so that the pilot body could be consulted??? Funny, I don't remember being consulted.
This is not an industrial matter in my opinion, it is flight safety issue. No amount of money is going to make this acceptable or safe. The three man flights such as to Australia and NZ are already the most tiring flights we do. Now they want us to tack a few more hours on and cross a bunch of time zones as well. Imagine the fourth sector on a "W" to Europe with a three man crew. It's no wonder they slipped the controlled rest paragraph into vol 2/2. This must be the exceptional circumstances they refer to except it will not be the exception but the norm to have someone sleeping in the seat.
This is just the CX management solution for screwing up the manning so badly. Can't they see that this will only make more people leave.
What can we do?
(1) email or telephone the AOA and say no way.
(2) Push the AOA to mount a legal challenge against the CAD over any changes and force them to justify any changes in court.
(3) If all else fails go public and through the media bring pressure on the CAD. BA and QF do 4 crew to Europe, why are we any less tired? From what I hear, the operators who do three crew have much longer slips in between but in my opinion, that is still not good enough.
NO NO NO"

So how would everybody like to post their comments on actually operating 3 man 14hr flights? I am led to believe that the CAD do not think it is a flight safety issue.... so is it?
If nobody complains (here or elsewhere) then before we blink it will be standard to be rostered as such. Why else do you all think its gone so quiet from the company? This is potentially a golden gift to CX from the CAD to man their new aircraft arrivals more easily and its creeping in the back door unannounced. DO SOMETHING! Put your comments under mine.Think of it as an open forum petition to the CAD/CX from those that are actually at the pointy end.

For my 10 cents worth I dont think its safe at all and its completely unsustainable with the level of fatigue that would creep in. Its bad enough already with 4 crew and under 24hr turnarounds and will only get worse as crew shortages bite.What a career airline eh? Join up all you wanabee people and enjoy getting unavoidably burnt out by the time you get your first hair cut.

This situation will affect YOU, AOA or not, whatever rank,sex,creed,age,colour,or flavour,so read the above...think on it and please add your comments (either way) because they need to be ON THE RECORD.... before its too late to challenge the CAD/CX.

[Mach75]

Is it possible for the company to eventually apply 3-man ULH flight to North America? It is my understanding that Air Canada uses 3-man crews on the A340 between YVR and HKG.

[crewsunite]

MEDIA is the only way.
Do any of u know any channels to get into the media.

The public would love to know about an ealier post about all crew falling asleep behind the wheel. Only to be woken by the alarm.

God helps us when the Wx is **** & fuel critical & technical problems. Or an enroute failure. When we are over the 'legal driving limit' due to lack of sleep. Medical fact (Crews News infact)

The public should be warned ...

PW this is another rescue attement for your prefect crewing plan.
Boy you are a clever chap :D

[routetuner]

They already have 3 man crew- duty 15hours maximum, only to return to Hkg -EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES! This is the limit we should go to and NO CHANGES!!! 4 crew ulh ONLY! Speak up people!

[nevaeh gypsy]

Hey,


Air Canada uses 4 crews ops from North America to Hong Kong. 3 man is the quickest way to a fatigue related incident on the ULH!!!

NG

[Mach75]

Oh, my mistake. I was told they did 4-man crews from Toronto but used 3-man crews out of YVR.

[cpdude]

I believe AC uses 3-man out of YVR to Japan not HKG.

[Cowboy One Arrival]

AC did at one time operate 3 man HKG-YVR but it soon became a safety related issue and with the help of foresight and union protection the practice has since stopped. To all my mates at CX best wishes and good luck on this one. It seems like you guys/gals can not count on anything anymore ie. pay, conditions (65), bases, training, command progression and now for all your efforts and (captain's) discretion you can all expect to work a little harder for your ever shrinking paycheck (inflation and tanking Green Back)... It's a race to the bottom and this is a race where CX really can be a market leader! So sad. Fight the good fight gents/ladies and in the meantime look for greener grass... There is life after CX...

On the subject: What has changed in Aviation to make 14 hour/3 man operations any safer than when your flight time limitations were first introduced? Has this change, directly affecting safety, been implemented simply due to greed?.. There have been volumes written concerning pilot fatigue and yet duty times are ever increasing in our industry because there is always some other airline that does it longer or with less crew. All I can say is comparing Apples to Oranges (comparing individual rules versus the sum of another airlines' operating rules ie. "Cherry Picking") will get you no where and manning levels are your last link in the safety chain. For a most recent example (one of many) and certainly not the last just look at the MK Airline accident... I realize it is a business but shame on any industry for putting crew costs ahead of human costs... My two cents.. Be safe out there guys/gals.

[The Kook]

crewsunite wrote:

"MEDIA is the only way.
Do any of u know any channels to get into the media."

My uncle does porn, will that work?

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Brilliant Idea from the GMA until someone goes sick at an outport, suddenly only 2 crew members to fly home...flight cancelled hundreds of hotel rooms, jets in the wrong place, knock on effects will cost the idiots more than they save. Crew members fatigued , sick rates escalate etc etc

Then the directors will come after more than the KA GMO, bye bye Phil

[CYRILJGROOVE]

And another thing

End of W patterns and super compacts, bye bye lifestyle choices AND many more pilots to leave CX, but bonus all round.

[Sheko]

Dont forget that we now have "controlled rest" to cope with being completely shattered in flight. i.e. Its now ok by Cathay if we fall asleep hanging in our straps, on duty, on the flight deck. That will take the pain away and now they've put it in our manuals too.

How thoughtful because it will open the door to 3 man crews since you'll need less rest off the flight deck having snored away across continents for hours already. That cant be unsafe surely? I reckon it should be re-named "un-controlled rest".

Do our passengers know about this?

[Buttie Box]

At the risk of repeating myself...

Never having had the need to use 5-4-3, I had no idea what protection it gave. Now I do 3 east-west ULH trips per month, sometimes with only 3 days between each one. When that happens, the cumulative fatigue is palpable.

The 2 problems with 3-man ULH are:

a. Crew fatigue.

b. A lack of contingency.

I cannot help thinking that the 2 are inter-related. Three-man ULH will lead to an increase in crew sickness which will deny the ability to operate under those conditions. If we are going to go down this road, especially east-west, we need a major relaxation in AFTLs which may offset the benefit gained by reducing the flight deck crew.
BB

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Interesting how the Hong Kong Pilots have the AFTL limits increased and the UK Pilots on which the CAP 371 is based on will remain at the tried and tested values, however I guess the UK CAD is not "nobled" by British Airways and BA has enough crew to man the task.

Must say it always smelt a bit when taking CAD inspectors to Australia to hunt for property and get a free ride in J class on the flimsy pretext of an inspection.

Funny, never had them on a Delhi flight.

[oriental flyer]

My immediate reaction to the original post is Who were the pilot reps ?

Probably management pilots who never do ULH . So of course they are going to approve the 14 hours 3 man ULH . If they were AOA delegates they need some re- education and I don't care how it is administered . What is the AOA doing ? . They should be protesting this, but I haven't heard a word yet.
If this is allowed in people will leave in large masses This really is the thin end of the wedge . The fatigue factor will be huge, me thinks that the sickness rate will go through the roof. So where are the savings?

[ernestkgann]

Sorry to derail the thread slightly but for those looking at EK and thinking there is something better out there, we operate two man BKK-SYD on a night sector landing at 0630 local.

[Numero Crunchero]

A mate of mine who has flown both CX and EK said we have similar FTLs. Cx would roster the same thing. If the sector time is greater than 9 hrs not in your WOCL then you get a 3rd pilot. If you land at 630L SYD that is 2330DXB time and if flight time is less than 9 hrs then you would only get 2 crew if CX rostered it.

[Kane Toed]

Virgin have been operating 3 man crew on some LON - HKG - LON flights for a while Only during the Northern Hemisphere summer I believe.

[goingdown]

AF flies 3-man crew all year round CDG-HKG v.v....but layover longer and more time off between trip.

[Rice Pudding]

Air NZ also operate 3 man ULH on some sectors, but it then increases their rest requirements at the outport. Air France do the same.

Incidently, we need to take on board the planned company expansion. They do not have enough crews right now as it is. It is very obvious that to move forward the company will require 3 man ULH, age 65, and an increase in monthly hours before overtime.

Read your latest HKAOA newsletter, and take on board what they are saying. Do not answer your phone on G days. Do not agree to working on G days. And if you end up fatigued as a result of taking reduced rest or extended flight patterns then you are legally obligated to call in sick and contact an AVMED. There is no excuse for finding yourself working as a result of answering the phone on your day off, and if you do then you have no right to be complaining about pay, conditions or anything else !!!

This is serious stuff. As a result of the crew shortages they now have to bend the rules to crew the aircraft, and they are relying on your help. Your conditions are now being further eroded, as a result of you helping them out !!! Stand up for yourselves and make a difference.

[boofta]

Air NZ also have a formal CONTROLLED REST IN COCKPIT system which
allows one pilot at the controls to sleep, not just in EXCEPTIONAL
circumstances as CX has recently promulgated.
This is clearly laid out in Air NZ's manuals, co-ordinated with cabin crew
and accepted practice.
The future will be 3 man long haul, or parked aircraft.
I can't see the CAD doing diddly squat, they have never helped
any aspect of flight safety.

[ChairmanBoysClub]

If it does in fact change, it will not change back until we crash or have a major incident - whichever comes first. But then I think we will get all the publicity and media coverage that this subject deserves.

I truely belive we should be prepared (well prepared that is!) to hit the media as soon as proposal becomes official. Let the public know that when the fly Cathay Pacific Aeroplanes they fly with pilot who are sleeping. Have some good photos, statistics and comments posted. Hell even make advertisements in various new papers around the world. That should sort out the bunch. :p:ok:

[missingblade]

Apparently Airbus , Boeing and some authorities are looking into the next generation cockpit ( post 787 ) with one pilot in the cruise already. If you allow one to sleep while one operate - as we do now - then why not just use two guys fo T/O and Land and in the cruise one goes to the bunk. This will allow for very long duty with only two guys.
With ADS B and new auto WX radars etc etc there's not much to do anyway....
Flight deck technology will monitor pilot's heart rate, eye movement etc to make sure he is awake and aware.

Maybe they will allow you to take your dog along for company - and to bite you if you touch anything.......

Welcome to the future....and the end of the pilot shortage.:ok:

[dustyprops]

I hate to say it guys but 3 man ULH will be here before we know it and there is nowt we can do to stop it. My old man has a good mate in Air Canada who was telling him they are 3 man on YVR - HKG and have been for a while. Also going that way on a lot of other ULH routes. I've got mates that do UK-Red sea and return with just 2 of them, that's about 5.5 hours each way with an hour on the ground for a turn around. Virgin do 3 man Lhr-Hkg all year round, they do get a long stop though, with a syd night stop in there somewhere. As it's been said before, it's the easiest way to solve crewing problems.

Face it fella's, work's gonna become a lot harder, and rest (both during and before flights) alot more important.

[Cpt. Underpants]

My guess is that they'll introduce three man on European flights, with "extended stay" layovers in better hotels as an acknowledgment of the "hardship", then when we've all stopped griping about it, they'll slide it back to our typically crappy short rest in typically crappy hotels.

[Buttie Box]

So what better hotels will we be staying in other than the Headland on our layovers?

BB

[Penske]

The Air Canada 3 man operation YVR-HKG is not always a 3 man crew. The crew compliment is based on the departure time from YVR and the flight time on the day. If it is a late night departure or if the flight time is over 13:55 it will be a 4 man crew. The 4th man PXs home though in almost all cases, so a 3 man crew HKG-YVR is the rule.

Been there, done that, and the 3 man flights are brutal.

[AnAmusedReader]

Reads like your the one who'll have the accident that ChairmanBoysClub writes about. If you are really tired all the time you need to see a doctor. If you are the captain and you see how tired you all are when you enter the cockpit, what are you doing taking off?

Have you ever read the ANO?

Yes, accident investigators look at crews' rosters after accidents/incidents.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

A CX cockpit in most cases has crew from different bases on all differing time zones and therefore making comparisons difficult. Hence the "time zone" rostering that was implemented several years ago that is fairly unique to HKG (yes an error in previous post of mine). I think you will also find that the other operators crews fly significantly less hours per month.

But when it no longer suits the operator because of a self induced crew shortage.....hey presto ......change the rules so the company can benefit at the crews expense......

We have to make a lot of noise about this because commercial gain is put ahead of flight safety with the authorities blessing.

[FatiguePilot07]

Already 4-man Long Haul puts many pilots operating the flight into sleeping out of their own regular time zones, like the HKG-Europe or HKG-US sectors. 3-man Long haul to Oz/NZ/ANC is just as bad. Putting 3-man Long Haul to Europe/US is just a disaster waiting to happen.

I say NO to 3-man Long Haul! There is a reason why they call it LONG HAUL!

[waterski145]

http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticlePix/ArticlePilotFatigue.jpg

[SFGDOG]

From a senior manager, it is confirmed that we will have three crew long haul. Apparently CAD will increase the three crew limit to 14 hours with some restrictions such as day flight only.

The Cathay Puppets at CAD haven't realised that what makes it a day flight could be different for every crew member. Lets use a very common example: A European based Captain with a Australian based FO and a Hong Kong based SO. So whose local day do the geniuses at CAD think it should be based on?

Apparently the total scientific rationale it is based on by CAD is "it's only an extra hour". So the question begs, at what point does the "extra hour " become too tiring (how many straws do break the camels back)? When did the research that the current AFTL's were based on become irrelevent? If the CAD had only asked or listened to the Pilot body and even bothered to look at the fatigue issue that exisits with the current three crew night flights to Australia (look at the where and when FDAP events are occurring) they just might have made an informed decision but it might have not suited their master.

I just can't wait to see them justify scientifically in court if the HKAOA decides to pursue the issue that way. I think the CAD will look very silly, again. They are probably hoping that won't happen under the current leadership. But they won't be leading in 6 months and I don't think the new leadership will be as quite as accommodating.

[Sheko]

Well is it too late to revisit this thread?

From the bars and bazaars the rumours say we're in for 3 man long haul pretty damn soon (poss early 2010).

Last chance to add your comments before the deal for flight time limitations between the CAD and CX is in dry ink.

Your backstop of the rostering agreement wont save you for long either..... when it runs out, that's it, you'll be rostered to the max by CX.

Have a nice career,

Sheko.

[broadband circuit]

Have you ever read the ANO?

An excellent question indeed!

Further, many patterns will likely be rostered very tightly, and often will require discretion to complete the task, especially during the "shoulder period" between the seasons.

The simple answer: DO NOT USE DISCRETION. EVER. Even if delaying yourself down-route an extra day means that you'll miss a night out with your mates, don't set dangerous precedents.

[kmagyoyo]

Latest rumour I've heard from a SYD Captain is the CAD want to extend the leg stretch requirements to a point where the third Pilot will no longer be required on any Aussie flights. Anyone heard about that little gem?

[BuzzBox]

To put it another way: CX wants to do away with the leg stretch and CAD just rubber stamps anything CX asks for.

[Max Reheat]

If this really goes through, then being on a ULH base would be untenable. How about a mass return to HKG base for all those entitled to do so.

That would make them gasp!!!

[claire40]

It doesn't matter if any other airline does 3 man
what matters is that we all know that its not safe for our operations
it will cause long term fatigue and degrade safety
Now what are we going to do about it?
The public consultation was over a year ago how many of you wrote to the cad voicing concerns over proposed changes?
This issue is too important to discuss here the AOA must be made aware of the majority feeling on this.
The press will not help eg daily mail uk on 5th oct ran a story on pilot fatigue
by the 6th oct the general public cant remeber what was on the front page yet alone whats inside

[Sheko]

That's what rumour control says will be occuring.

Never mind only 3 crew long haul from the bases, try 2 crew to ALL of Oz and back. You'll be broken on arrival in HK to begin your pattern and get home afterwards completely wasted.

I wonder if anybody "upstairs" has thought what will occur if any of these long/short haul trips
actually end up diverting. If pushed to the limit on the flight itself, any second sector stuff "to get the aircraft home" would be impossible.

[Triplespool123]

What would be the impact on second officers? (I'm a hopeful candidate for the Cadet Pilot Programme)

Would the "third" person be a first officer?

[SOPS]

Just a question....HKG PER for instance..what is the duty..and what crew do you operate with. (or SYD MEL...just wondering)

[The Management]

We have so many discretion reports from commanders operating back to Hong Kong using the 2-hour discretion rule (from 13 hours to 15 hours). We presented these reports to the CAD as evidence for 3-crew ULH which will be accepted.
We like to thank every commander that used this clause to return our aircraft back to Hong Kong as you made this increase in the Flight Duty Period possible. This will require one less pilot on our ULH network, which will reduce our operating cost and increase My Bonus.

To all the pilots that use discretion to increase the Flight Duty Period to complete the pattern, again we thank you. We presented all of these reports to the CAD and the Flight Duty Periods for Normal Operations will be increasing.

Without all the helpful pilots this would not have been possible and we thank you all the way to OUR BONUS.

To My Bonus.

The Management

[goathead]

Judicial Reveiw /ombudsman ?

[4 driver]

Perhaps being a bit more assertive with the local media would help. Safety is always the cockpit crews prime consideration even if it's not Cathay's.

[AcarsII]

Absolutely 4 Driver, you are spot on! Also a higher AOA membership would be absolutely vital in times like this.

A strong union is the only way forward!!

For some, this is too difficult to comprehend. It`s about time non CX/KA pilots are starting to realise this and join the AOA. Look at the Middle Eastern Carriers. They don’t have an union at all and their terms and conditions really deteriorated in the last year or so.

The clear winners are definitely the unions from Lufthansa, Air France and BALPA in the UK.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

This will require one less pilot on our ULH network, which will reduce our operating cost and increase My Bonus.



Actually it won't.

3 Pilots will each be paid a credit factor of 1.14. This will put MORE crews into overtime,according to the DFO, 43mil has been paid in the past,that figure will most likely double!

LONGER lay-overs means MORE allowances and SUPERIOR hotels, if the euro gets stronger still, hear management cry..

As mentioned already, imagine the nightmare of having ALL 3 crew members on different time zones, one goes sick at an outport, pax in hotels for the night, newspaper headlines: "CX flight delayed by 15 hours due to lack of available pilots!":)

With all the above and NO commanders discretion, possible diversions etc, let's see your precious little "bonus" being used for all those court cases after the 1st FATIGUE RELATED ACCIDENT:eek:

[Sqwak7700]

You are one step behind there Ad.

The company has already applied for a variation to the longer overnights when using three crew for longhaul. Ask the AOA, they will confirm this. They are quite pissed that they are applying for a variation to a scheme that is not even implemented yet!

They are thinking ahead, unlike many of our pilots who bend over backwards to "complete the mission".

:hmm:

[Loiter1]

With all the above and NO commanders discretion, possible diversions etc, let's see your precious little "bonus" being used for all those court cases after the 1st FATIGUE RELATED ACCIDENThttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Unfortunately this is not usually the case. The latent factors that often underlay most accidents are laid by people who are long gone by the time the 'holes of the swiss cheese' line up. The culprits will most likely be reading about a CX fatigue related accident/incident over a glass of red while on retirement. The ones who will pay for it will be us, just like the cargo fine it will come out of general revenue and it will affect our precious little bonus.:(

[NAT Zulu]

Virgin have been using 3 crew for LHR-HK all year now. The 4th man is only required due to acclimatization reasons between HK and SYD. (VA operate LHR-HK-SYD-HK-LHR) The crazy thing is that the 4th man positions out from LHR in the back and then operates the sector back to London. Very useful to have a spare guy positioning in the cabin when you have just flown a 12 hour night flight as 3 crew and are approaching HK in typhoon season! Not!

This year, when they operated a second LHR-HK service it was actually rostered with 3 crew all the way around the trip.....with min rest of 14 hrs between pulling on stand in HK from SYD and take off for a 13 hour flight back to London. And to top it off, because this made the total time away from base shorter we all lost a rostered day off after the trip! Of course, union said they would monitor fatigue along with the company. Funny how no amount of ASRs or CHIRP reports seemed to change a thing!

That should tell you all you need to know about how airlines value pilot fatigue against the cost of his operating hours! If a buck can be saved in pilot hours costs and hotac it is always worth reappraising the safety aspect and rewriting the ops manual!

It's a slippery slope guys and we are all sliding fast.

NZ

[chards]

The thing about all of this is that just because another airline does it, it doesn't make it right. Reducing crew complements on a longhaul operation does nothing other than reduce safety margins (oh, and reduce costs)and I guess that if the powers that be are happy with that then I will have to live with it. Yes I admit there has been the odd occasion where I have stepped off a daytime longhaul and not felt tired, but shouldn't that be the goal? Unfortunately it seems that we have to squeeze that lemon just a little more until we really are in coffin corner but of course safety is our number one priority so it has nothing to do with economics right? It is blatant, it is obvious and it is decided by people not experiencing it on a regular basis if at all.