Pax seats at exits

[Coppelia]

Safety standards in my company are very strict. And concerning pax seating at exits (LH side seats at 1st row, last row and overwing exits)on our B737, there is no discussion possible : everything must be stowed in the overhead lockers during take-off and landing. No small handbag, even no coat or scarf on the lap.

A lot of passengers are getting angry saying that "it is the first time they are being asked to place their stuff up on board of an aircraft, it is scandaleous to bore them for such futilities", etc etc.

Now my question is: are we the only airline obliging passengers sitting at the exits to comply with those safety rules ?? :confused:

[RW-1]

Seemingly every airline I have been on the same rule has been given to those in the emergency exit rows. Whether or not they have a rule or not, I would think if the flight attendant asks, then to not comply is interfering with a crewmember in the performance of their duties.

On a lighter note though, if one complains, I have seen them just ask around to other pax if there is someone who would switch seats, I've taken it. And I've seen the person in question get embarrased when I've done so because I'll let them know in no small terms that everyone elses safety is mor importnat than their baubles having to be tucked under the seat ahead, etc.

On a side note, how many others worry about the aged who have to be wheelchaired into the plane to their seats? Or need assistance walking down to the aircraft into their seats?

Realistically, do they know they are basically toast if there is a mishap?
(no more so than the rest of us, but you all know what I mean ...)

[Deep Cover Gecko]

Coppelia,
I'm now working for my third airline, and in all the time I've been flying (over 5 years) I've always asked pax in emergency exit rows to put their bags etc in the overhead lockers. I'm amazed how many times I hear people say that it's the first time they've been asked to do it, and that other airlines don't make them. However, I'm convinced that half the time they know that they're supposed to, and are just trying to get away with it.

RW-1,
I flew on an American airline last year (I'm based in Europe) and was surprised to see that the crew let the passengers at the overwing exits keep all their baggage under the seat in front of them. Is that allowed on US carriers? (Incidentally, I was sat in the overwing row, and automatically put everything up straight away!)

[Manflex55]

Copp,

C'mon, U know better... the PAX are not "angry", they're just delighted by your smile & their baggage purposely placed by the exit is just a way to start a nice conversation with U !

MF

[RW-1]

Deep,

Can't say, I'm only a pax on the airline flights, my flying is rotory wing, and I don't have the luxury of F/A's for that, darn it .... :D

I would tend to agree it is a event to event thing. If I'm around I say something to them, as outlined above (the pax, not the F/A's)

Something else, on my last flight down back home to Laud (FLL) the girl in front of me decided she didn't have to throw her chewed gum (about 15 pieces, what a cow!) in the ashtray ... I let the attendant know, and found out not only that type of thing, but some lady was letting her kid crayon the fold down tray at the kids seat. What people I tell you!

I took matters into my own hands though on her. disgusting at it may seem, I got down in my row an snuck up behind her seat, took the pieces of gum and stuck them to the handle of her purse, and I mean good.

The guy in my window seat (I had the isle) was trying to keep a straight face, but was for it for one of her non-chalant tosses rolled one under his shoe, with predictable results.

Well, we get to FLL, and I stood up just before the gate, and when everyone else filled the isle, I turned around to hear her exclaim "Yuck! how did that get there?"

I looked at her and her (ugly) boyfriend and announced, "Well as a pilot, I can say that objects sometimes have a way of shifting in flight, didn't you listen to the F/A briefing?" :D

Hehehe ... you could tell the guy knew it was me, but couldn't do anything, for to say that his gal was dumping gum on the floor, etc .....

Just a nice one to let you know some of us are with you F/A's in back and know what a hard time it can be. Most of the time I'll leave my seat when at cruise and grab a folddown seat and chat with who's prepping the galley, workload permitting, I find it makes the flight much shorter. :)

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: RW-1 ]

[radeng]

It's interesting to hear this. I've flown from the US on a well known US major, where the guy beside me in the exit row was allowed to have his briefcasse between his knees and the seat on take of and landing. It was damned obvious, but the FA did nothing. Similarly about 9 years ago with a well known British airline from CDG to LHR (not to Terminal 4!) where the FAs were busy getting the newspapers handed out so they pretty well pushed the guy into his seat. Because the overhead was full (Friday night around 1730) they pushed all his luggage under the seat inf ront and behind his knees. In an exit row.

I've never flown them since - and won't.

[davidbwa]

A couple of nights ago, I had a woman sat at the overwing on a 737 refusing to put her handbag in the overhead. After a couple of minutes trying to persuade her (even her husband was trying to help me!!) I just grabbed the bag, shoved it in the overhead and told her rather brusquely (sp?) that if she had a problem with that she should address is to all the pax sitting around her that would trip up as they tried to get out of the exit as smoke filled the cabin. I got a smattering of applause from pax nearby (incl her husband) and she said sorry later on. When will pax realise that my job would be easier if I didn't have to make them do all these irritating things (seats upright, tray tables away etc). I firmly believe that pax think we make up these rules as we walk down the cabin just to **** them off. :D The worst is asking pax to put their shoes on for landing. Why they ask... In case you've got to run across the tarmac in a hurry - it always shuts them up!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

PS I do love pax honest - just not during a cabin secure!!!!


PS I've had the same problem on US airlines - Continental, USAirways shuttle, Delta Shuttle, always allow bags at overwings (I don't know about front rows as I never fly 1st class!!) The FAA make a big song and dance about having requirments for pax sitting at exit rows printed on safety cards, but then there's a bloody big carry on blocking it (and don't even get me started on how much carry on Americans bring onto aircraft!!!)

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: jump&slide ]

[FoxAlphaWhiskey]

Sorry to disappoint, but I work for a STN-based company where it is permissible to have baggage stowed under the seats at the overwings - true, this has to be of the small handbag type, but I think the old adage of giving the pax an inch and they'll take a mile applies. Much better to have a black-and-white situation where everything goes up, and if they disagree, bring it on!! :mad:

I've yet to be involved in a baggage dispute with a pax yet who hasn't used the old "well we were allowed to have it there on BA/Virgin/EasyJet etc etc etc" argument. Let's face it, most will try it on in order to keep their precious bags six inches rather than 3 feet away. The key, as I have found out, is to allow them to embarrass themselves! :D

Cynical Steward

[PAXboy]

A couple of theories, firstly that the pax who land up in Overwing/Emerg rows DO NOT REALISE that is where they are!! The reason that they say that 'everyone else lets them stow it at low level' is because they just do not understand the implications of where they are.

For most pax, these rows are known for leg room - nothing else!

As to the comments regarding US carriers and the blocking of these rows by carry-ons, it makes me determined to make sure that I get that row next time I am Stateside!!

My second theory is my old one as to the reason that people behave so badly in a/c cabins these days.

When I started as a pax in 1965 (I was 9) my parents told my brother, sister and I, "When you are in the aircraft, you must behave as if you are in the living room of mummy and daddy's best friends." So we stayed put and enjoyed ourselves, taking turns at the window.

Oh yes, and getting our Junior Jet Club log book signed up on the flight deck of the VC-10 <pause for nostalgia>.

Nowadays, pax behave as if they are in their OWN living rooms!!!! They think that they own the space when they are, in fact, merely renting it. They behave like that at home, so they do so on the a/c.

Why? In a nutshell, when the wide-bodies came along and travel was opened up, all carriers needed to get a new range of pax into their aircraft that had not been there before. To do so, they made it 'fun'. Laker and the rest with destinations in Florida etc. all made it look as simple as hopping on a bus. So we have a generation of folks that grew up treating the flight like a bus.

We cannot un-teach them now! And, as we all know, there is not an airline in the world that wants to spell out the full range of possibilities of what can happen.

Sorry to go on, I'll jump off the hobby horse now. :rolleyes:

[flapsforty]

Nice subject Copp!
Here I've been wondering if I was the only 1 having to face this insane discussion with pax at least once a weak. :confused:

Love to argue with these pax while knowing the pilots are anxiously waiting for me to report the cabin ready and I can hear ;)them "revving" up the engines.

Good to know that this minor irritant is shared by so many of us! :D

Another goody this week when doing the flight safety talk, standing looking down the aisle and seeing my girls doing the demonstration for a sea of raised newspapers.
It had been a short night and my temper was even shorter, so in the middle of the oxygen mask spiel I said :
"Ladies and gentlemen, the Oxygen mask might save your life in an emergency; your newspaper most certainly will not"

Down went the papers, and UP went the mood of the entire cabin crew. :)

Not very professional, I'm the first to admit it, but what satisfaction!! :D :D

[PAXboy]

Flaps - well done. I would argue that it was very professional! You used your training and experience to draw the pax's attention to their risk at the moment most likely to be effective.

[FoxAlphaWhiskey]

Paxboy, couldn't agree more! I would just add that if most pax treat the a/c cabin as they would their own living room, I would hate to see some of them...where would they put the dirty nappies/bags of sick/banana skins in the absence of seat pockets?? Back of the sofa perhaps?

It's about time we glorified waiters/waitresses use our obviously superior levels of intelligence and common sense (on board the a/c anyway!)to ridicule and outfox the walking cargo, good on ya flapsforty! After all, to use that oft-ignored line, "Ladies and Gentlemen, the cabin crew are on board for YOUR safety..."

Cynical Steward

[radeng]

As SLF, will I be considered cynical for asking:

'If safety is so important, and cabin crew are there for safety, why is their pay so comparatively low?'

(Radeng now hides, awaiting brickbats!)

[flapsforty]

:D Radeng a very legitimate question which I have been asking myself at the end of each month for the last 20 years now...... :D

On the other hand, I always feel that I'm pretty well paid for pouring coffee...... ;)

[pilotwolf]

Remember trip back from LAX a couple of years ago, with Virgin, sat in exit row on 747, next to another pilot, who incidently still in uniform, (with FO strips on under jacket admittedly) got MOST upset because the FA requested that he stow his broadsheet newspaper for take off to the point of almost rudness. FA insisted and eventually he relented under protest. I though this was an extremely poor example to set and 10/10 to the FA for her persistance and skill. :rolleyes:

[Coppelia]

It is shameful !!!! I just can't believe this... :eek: I hope the Purser found the pilot's name back in the passengers list and wrote a report on that fact.

[Ditch]

You've also gotta love those pax who sit at an exit where a bulkhead is present. They get all the extra legroom, think they own the plane, and UP go the legs and feet (with shoes on)resting on the bulkhead, like their on a recliner or something. (Brings a new meaning to the term First Class bed methinks) :D Nothing irritates me more..and its always fun asking them to take them down. Asked a pax once would he do that at home, his reply was...you guessed it YES.. :rolleyes: :confused:

[pilotwolf]

Should have pointed out in original post that the pilot wasn't one of Virgind own - he flew for another company and was return to UK for R&R. But still agree with the report idea or maybe a word from the 747 captain?

[wryly smiling]

Ditch
I'm one of the people that fit those bulkheads and when I fly and see pax with their feet up on them it winds me up also,you're not alone :rolleyes:

[PAXboy]

wryly smiling, next time - perhaps you could use thinner materials, so that the PAX's boots go right THROUGH the bulkhead. Then they have to pay for the damage!
:D

[gulf-crew]

I worked in the Gulf for a rather dodgy company that thinks it is better than BA. The cabin crew who could speak english didn't care less if their was bags/books etc at the L3 door on A A300 and did not seam to get it that if anything happened that the items would end up in their faces. Also the passengers well what can you say either they are stupid or just want to P... the crew off. I would rather see handbaggage put to a minimum that is allowed on board instead you now get companies now uping the limit on what they can take on board. At the end of the day handbaggage is a major hassle and will always be, for the passengers who say stupid things like 'I was never asked this before on any other flight' I say to you go get a life or fly with someone who does not care about your safety.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[taba]

Yes Gulf Crew...I had the same problem with a similar company in the Gulf...
Cabin Crew would often come to me and say"pax at the exit won't move their bags"...
Well,on one occasion the skipper just sat at the end of the runway and announced the reason why we were waiting and as if transformed by magic,the said bag suddenly appeared in the overhead bin....
Even in F/C A320:full and each pax had 3/3 bags and carry ons...so much so I had to stow their bags in economy...were they happy?
Don't think so!
Too much handbaggage allowance should be curbed before it is too late! :mad:

[brockenspectre]

I am constantly amazed, as SLF myself, at how much hand baggage folks bring into the cabin! I know when travelling to some destinations in Eastern parts of Europe it is recommended to have a roll-on suitcase that is acceptable for hand-baggage to avoid suitcases being pilfered (almost as a national tradition) but for the most part it surely must be unnecessary for people to bring more than one bag on board? Sure if folks still wish to buy presents or alcohol or other items in the tax-free shops, then bring your bag half empty and fill it. Vacation destinations seem to bring out the worst in people - not only have I seen people with plastic bags containing airport purchases but giant boxes of fragile vases and other items that have been bought. Surely if someone wants to ship a fragile item it can be done from the place of purchase or at check-in clerks should insist that additional items are weighed and paid for!

I think that there should be a gross weight for each passenger comprising their checked luggage, their hand baggage and themselves! If, as a large person (which I am these days) I am required to pay more or to carry less then FINE!!! When I was skinny I used to marvel at fat folks and how they occupy more space, now I am fat I find it fascinating how superior thin folks think themselves to be but...when it comes to air safety and weight/balance, surely there has to be a limit to the individual "weight" to be checked in to a cabin. Then skinny folks can buy more junk and us more Botticelliesque types (yeah, so I flatter myself) have to curtail our spending!!

Not a bad ideah huh? If there could be an international rule it would prevent the total bedlam at check in for many destinations!!!

I know for a fact now that airline seats are not designed for us larger folk, when i was skinny I was always comfortable, now comfort is what occurs when I get to sit on a flight-deck seat!! So..if the seats are designed for a "standard" then there must be a standard weight of passenger too..lets enforce it!

:D

[pilotwolf]

On a similar thread regarding the cabin baggage I recently had cause to come into cntact with a gentleman and his 2 children, with out going into details for legal and confidential reasons comments on this...

Said passenger had tried to check in on a 'charter' flight with 9 bags - all but 2 larger than the usual accepted dimensions - and 2 large suitcase for 7 days holiday in Europe.

He created a scene when told this was unacceptable, and proceeded to try and reduce the 9 bags to 2. Of course said bags were now far to large to carry on so he was told he would have to check them as hold baggage - another scene.

Then the ultimate came... when asked the usual security questions he stated the cases were full of semtex and that was why they were so heavy!

Suprisingly the staff actually allowed him and said brats to fly. When I came into contact with him he was going to miss his flight anyway, for unrelated reasons. The airline weren't particularly helpful in trying to arrange another flight so he then created another scene!

He couldn't believe it when I pointed out how luck he was not to be in jail and that perhaps he should keep quiet! Unfortunately this just seemed to humilate him in front of the children, (14 and 12ish). Never did find out if they flw out the next day...

Would you have been so accomadating as this particular airline and its staff were? :rolleyes:

[Coppelia]

Well, for sure, the amount of luggage carried by nowadays pax is another big, BIG problem !!! And a big source of stress for the cabin crew who see pax boarding the aircraft with huuuge and heavy luggage, looking (stupidly) at you, without saying "hello" (of course) but just "put this up" showing you their geant travel pro's... (and the "please" at the end of their order is optional of course :D ).

Personnally I'm getting crazy when I see pax placing oversized and overweight travelpro's in the overhead lockers. It often happens that 1 passenger takes all the room of a locker when it is supposed to hold the luggage of 5 other pax...

Also, when you stand in the AFT galley during boarding and pax come to you with their luggage saying -not hello :D , but "there is no room anymore for my bag" and you are obliged to find yourself some space left for it, checking all the bins, fighting amongst the mess up there, lifting the 15 kg- bag (do I have to remind that the maximum is 5 kg per passenger ?? :rolleyes: ) and fighting it to fit and ensure that the bin can still be safely closed while 100 eyes look at you and no one would stand up and help you... I could kill someone in those moments !! :D

More seriously, some airlines don't allow travel pro's as cabin luggage, and I still wonder why it is not the policy in my own company...

Why aren't weighing machines being put at the a/c's entry to check that luggage are not heavier than 5 kg ? In that case, no discussion possible with the pax ! :)

Brockenspectre, I LOVE the way you describe yourself as a Botticelliesque type ;) it is very poetic !

[Eboy]

Would removing the seats at the exits significantly help the evacuation speed?

[flypastpastfast]

Just had to reply with a real experience I once had on a major UK airline. Passengers on my row (wing exit) were reading papers, and I had a paperback novel. Crew insisted that I must put the paperback into overhead locker for take off, but newspapers were ok. I should point out that no other bags etc.. were involved.

Not only do I personally believe it is nonsense to insist on putting a paperback novel into the overhead lockers, but to then argue that newspapers are ok beggars belief.

I eventually agreed, but the cabin crew member really looked like a numpty.

I suppose everyone can make a 'bad' judgement call, but that is up at the top of my list of silly things cabin crew say.

Why not solve these problems and put all passengers into the overhead lockers, and leave the luggage on the seats?

[Coppelia]

Excellent your suggestion flypast ! Unfortunately luggage are not allowed to stay on exit seats, even when those seats are not occupied and even when strapped with the seatbelts. :D

And the other hand concerning your experience I don't understand why the cabin attendant didn't ask you simply to place your novel in the seatpocket in front of you ? (as for the newspaper of the pax next to you) :confused:

[Gaza]

I can fully understand the need to keep emergency exit rows clear but I do not understand the same requirement in row 1 (or other bulkheads). No-one is going to try to escape this way?? Anyone shed any light on this requirement?

[Deep Cover Gecko]

Gaza,
When you have your handbaggage with you at row 2, for example, it goes underneath the seat, and there is a bar to stop it from moving around, and sliding into the aisle. At row 1 and other bulkhead rows, there is nothing to stop bags from sliding round, ending up in the aisles, or any emergency exit that might be near.
Hope this helps.

[flapsforty]

Gaza, adding to what Gecko correctly stated:

Consider a handbag or bigger lying lose at your feet during take-off. The pilots decide at V-1 that braking is in order.
At that point, the forces applying themselves to your innocent piece of handluggage might turn it into a dangerous projectile being catapulted at very high speed through the cabin, easily capable of killing or seriously injuring a human being.

Hope this sheds some light on our seemingly neurotic behaviour............ :)

[PAXboy]

May I move this thread on to a related aspect, that has been mentioned by some in the thread?

It is one that has been raised before: the quantity of hand luggage. Rather than go into the problem - which we all know - what is it going to take to make carriers enfore their own rules?

For what it's worth - I am of the opinion that only concerted international action from the regulatory authorites would have even a remote chance of working.

Of course, if we can prove that a mega-death crash was caused by excessive hand baggage ... :cool:

[Tarantella]

I find that a brief explanation works wonders in cases such as this. As was stated earlier, many pax are 1st time or irregular flyers, they are truly not aware of the responsibilities of sitting in an exit row.
A comment such as: "After you get yourself settled, just ensure that all your luggage is in the locker, we have to keep the emergency exits clear, just in case we need to use them."
or: "I'll pop that bag up in the locker for you for the takeoff/landing."
Statements with an explanation are not requests.
People don't often argue with things that are presented as a fait accompli.
My airline has a policy of only allowing able-bodied passengers to sit in exit rows. Mistakes occasionally occur at checkin, but an explanation (and a smile) seems to work a lot better than officiousness.

[stickyb]

Having done a lot of flying around Asia as SLF, I must say that CX cabin staff are some of the best I have experienced at keeping the emergency exits clear of baggage, and they also do it very politely too.
On a recent flight with a chinese airline (I think it was China Northeastern, but can't remember) there was a card in the seat pocket of the emergency exit seats giving various rules that you had to read, such as being able bodied, willing to assist in the vent of emergency evacuation, etc., and telling you to request a move to another seat if you couldn't comply.
As to the comment about the amount of baggage, I would concur. I have seen no end of boxes, cartons, etc, humped on board some ASian airlines.

[Eboy]

Tarantella makes good points. The airline I fly most often, UA, also has a policy of "able-bodied" passengers at exit rows, but there does not seem to be a clear definition of that term. I recently saw an crew member go back and forth with an elderly couple in an exit row, one with a cane, for about two minutes about whether or not they could handle the tasks in the event of an emergency. They argued yes, the crew member was not sure. It was pretty uncomfortable to hear. In the end, they stayed seated. The techniques suggested by Tanrantella would have helped then, I see now in hindsight.

[Ditch]

:eek: :eek: I AM IN SHOCK!! :eek: :eek:

I figured all airlines throughout the world had the same policy of placing only able bodied passengers in exit rows. My airline (QF)does, and we also move anybody with an obvious injury or if they even have a walking cane.

I mean, it makes sense doesn't it?? Why have a pax there that is going to get in everyones way and be a hinderance.

Could you all shed some light on this situation for me. So QF,UA will only place able bodied pax in exit rows. I hope the majority of airlines also have the same common sense. Who else please??

[Eboy]

Well, let me add that both passengers appeared quite vigorous to me. He was mobile on his own, he just used a cane. In my experience canes are generally used to relieve joint pain whether by arthritis or other disease. It does not mean the passenger is incapacitated. I wear eyeglasses. Should I be excluded from an exit row because of that? They could get knocked off in an emergency, but I can still see pretty well -- not perfect, but good enough to assist, in my opinion. In an emergency, I expect the older gentlemen would have come through fine. The crew member was closer to the situation than I, I did not hear the whole conversation, and I think she probably made a good call.

Frankly, what I worry about most concerning evacuations are the number of passengers I notice on takeoff and landing that have their shoes off or untied. One of the most common-sense preparations for a possible accident would be to keep your shoes on, in my view. What are the shoeless going to do with broken plastic, hot metal shards, and possibly live electrical wiring on the floor or ground? Their shoes will be long gone, 10 rows forward.

[kestrel011]

Hi, i would just like to state that the airline i work for states in all instances that hand luggage should be in the hatracks, and shoes/trainers and the like should be on for take off/landing. Personnaly i tell everyone shoes on like it or lump it. :D