British Airways CSD's, Pursers, etc!!!!!!!

[rhythm method]

Now that I've got your attention I'd like to draw your attention to a thread on the main rumours and news forum. BA TO CUT WORKERS PAY and in particular page 2, a posting by Secret Squirrel. I can only assume that this t@ssrer is a 2-ringer with a grudge after being refused an upgrade or something. I'm flightdeck staff and two of my sisters are BA LHR crew so I wanted to alert you so that some of you could reply to this pr*ck on a thread you may not have otherwise looked at.
He fits into the perfect 'Nigel' description. Better than everyone else.

We're all in this together. Let's stick together. CRM

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: rhythm method ]

[rhythm method]

Sorry have to correct my previous post. Having just read some of this assh@les other contributions on the main forum it appears he's a CityFlyer Express pilot who now can officially call himself a British Airways pilot. Just in the door and he reckons that Cabin Service Directors should be done away with. I'm sure he's the font of all knowledge in the airline business!

In hindsight, he's probably correct. There isn't any real need for a CSD on a 40 seat ATR42 (or if he's actually worked his way up the list) or on an Aerospace RJ100.

[Sick Squid]

Rhythm Method, I'm going to take a bit of issue with you on this one. I happen to know Secret Squirrel, and he is a decent chap, though his preference towards a rather forthright writing style (and spray-shooting from the hip sometimes) does leave him open to attack on occasion.

I've read the post you refer to, and don't see anything wrong with it. He is essentially putting the argument that the CSD rank is not necessary, and could be accomplished by a purser working-up (as on the AML 777 operation.)He does not advocate sacking CSD's but abolishing the rank.. presumably allowing those who are already there to remain. His post is well written, and not at all provocative in language, only in argument.Some of his other posts are different in tone, granted, but not the one you take issue with.

This is indeed an argument I have heard before many times in my time at BA... remove the rank of CSD and use a purser working up, pay them another 20% for that trip or something like that, and allow the natural attrition of the CSD rank.

If you want to debate such a proposal then do it either in here, or on the Rumours and News thread, but I will not have people using this forum to incite personal attacks. I've already closed down one thread recently because it degenerated into a slanging match. You win arguments by reason, not by calling people names and rubbishing them.

So there you go... keep the CSD rank or not? The caveat here is that abolishing it will not cure all BA's current ills... I think we all know exactly where that scalpel needs to be weilded (spelling?), and it is not at the front-line staff, in my opinion.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[rhythm method]

Sick Squid,

point taken to a degree. Although I wasn't trying to start a slanging match with him I was trying to ensure that the people whose position he wants to aboloish were aware of his posting so that they could defend their careers. That was the only reason I posted on this forum. I have edited one of my own contributions having re-read it this morning while less angry!

:D

[punannee]

Having read through this thread and various other on the same topic (closed and open) there are some very varying views. Some a bit extreme and demoralising the chosen careers of others.

I will say this, however;

Operating an a/c is not a one man job, there are numerous persons involved in the departure, transit and arrival of scheduled airline services. Without any one part of this chain, not many aircraft will actually get into the air, well not on viable operations at least.

The pilots have one job, the cabin crew the other. Both involve varying degrees of training. FA's ,as most have pointed out, must speak a number of languages and it is them who deal with the flak of the pax.

However it's the Flight Crew who do have the most specific training, this is lengthy, ongoing and expensive. The chain of command must be clear, as it is on most carriers. Capt, FO, SO, FE etc etc. Some may argue the SO!
The flight crew are in charge of the safety and operation of the aircraft anything goes wrong and it's there head on the chopping board. There are no FDR's CVR's in the Cabin and Galley are there!

Salaries should be scaled to the degree of responsability, a FO should not be paid less than a CSD. Afterall he's second in command.

What is degrading to most descent flight crew is the complete lack of respect shown on recent threads from pilots towards FA's. Afterall they are your collegues. Thankfully most of the flight crew in our operation have a good working relationship with the cabin crew which is paramount to the safe operation of the aircraft.

The only time we will use derogatry terms is in the bar after a few drinks, which is all in good fun.

Bottom line people.....learn to get along it makes life much easier.

[paulsamcam]

My basic salary as a CSD is note as high as some would believe. Lets put the record straight it's less rightly so than that of a BA first officer. There are months when you have really decent money trips and others when you earn peanuts. If you were to compare a like with like roster then naturally the first officer would earn more.
The only time when it is possible to earn more is if say I did an EZE,ALA,ATL/BGI back to back and a SAN, which would be a really heavy month,with excellent allowances. Compared to say the first officer who has only done a 13 day HRE.

[paddle]

I say to get respect you should give respect, and stripes on your shoulder don't make you a better person than anyone else.
Your sh!t still stinks.

And tell me, why should a CSD NEVER earn more than an FO???

If a CSD has been employed with a company from the year dot, should they not reap the benefits of such loyality to a company when compared to a new FO with a mere 500 hours??
(and it DOES happen)

The CSD plays an important role. They are your main point of communication with the rest of the cabin crew.
Just one example-safety and security checks pre-departure. You want anything from 8-18 individual calls to tell you its all OK.........or just one from a responsible CSD who has taken all the checks?

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: paddle ]

[RGW]

The Fat Police obviously didn't heed Sick Squid's post (posted 11 October 2001 09:02) which states:-

I've already closed down one thread recently because it degenerated into a slanging match. You win arguments by reason, not by calling people names and rubbishing them.

FP,s subsequent post (posted 19 October 2001 09:54) is nothing but abusive and could be considered libelous.

I've removed the quote as the method i chose to deal with this one was deletion of the original. Sure you understand, thank you for attempting to bring balance to the procedings. Sick Squid, Cabin Crew forum Moderator

What ever happened to interlect, reason and respect during cut and thrust argument? Come on people, let's raise the standard or leave the computer (like the brain) switched off. :( :(

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: Erect & Uncaged ]

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[Sick Squid]

I've just deleted a post above which was insulting, utterly pointless and a waste of my time and the time of those who choose to read this forum. The poster has had their name passed to PPRuNe admin. and will be banned.

I fundamentally DO NOT LIKE being placed in a position where I consider that removing a post altogether is the best course of action. However, this is a MODERATED bulletin board, and sometimes that course of action is the only way to attempt to keep the nature of debate alive, and most importantly on what is an often anarchic medium, keep that debate topical.

I'll try one more time to keep this one on-topic because the vast majority of users who contribute to this forum are worth the effort. Also, there is a valid subject here waiting to be debated that I will not allow to be sidetracked by abuse. Any further abuse will be deleted without explanation, as I can't waste 30 minutes of my life dealing with each one.

That, after all, is why we have moderators, to facilitate debate, and that is what you signed on here to do. If you want to abuse someone, do it to their face, or by e-mail, not behind the screen of anonymity.

Right... the topic of this one is the validity of the role of CSD. Not how much they are paid, how much pilots are paid, or comparisons of the two, but the rank itself. After all, what kicked this thread off was a response to just that point....

The ball is in your court, folks. Do remember the Golden Rule of debate, however.....

If you have nothing to add, add nothing!

Thank you. I can go back to pulling the legs off spiders now.......

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[gadgetman]

The chain of command is not neccessarily comensurate with the pay earned.
When I was a lowly Second Lieutenant, I was in command of a platoon. The money earned by my Sergeant, my subordinate, was well in excess of what I earned. If I had stayed in long enough to reach Captain, only then would I have earned more than him.

[paulsamcam]

There are many First Officers in BA who earn more than Captains. However, here we go again with the topic of renumeration. The CSD has an important role on board lets give it some credit.

[Paddington*]

Is there any difference between the job of Purser and CSD on shorthaul? :confused:

[paddle]

Bigbrutha,
Although I disagree with you, I do see the validity of your debate.

I find many of the CC that have been around since the year dot have also furthered themselves by obtaining their PPL and more and they do understand what the flight deck have gone through to get where they are.

These are some of the crew you would want on your flight, should something happen. They understand your position and can be of assistance.

I must admit there seems to be this "forgotten war" of egos between flight and cabin crew. CC dont want to be seen as just "dollies" and FC dont want to be seen as "bus driver".

I guess it comes down to "give repect-get repect"

[laune]

Self centred, Insecure, Money obsessed - Some of the 'qualities' which seem to be reflected in comments made in this forum. I really feel these are a small element within the industry.

[RGW]

Many BA longhaul cabin crew earn more than regional airline flight crew, sometimes even the captain. Remuneration isn't about rank, it's about supply and demand and size of operation. If BA flight crew always judge their importance and station in life upon remuneration, they are destined to a life of disappointment. :( :( :(

[flyblue]

Any professional cathegory negotiates its contract with the company. The company gives them what they negotiated, if it is in its interest. That's it.

I think it is quite improper to judge other's profession unworthy of their salary.
If you are not happy with yours, negotiate it, but please have the good taste of not trying to diminish others in order to obtain it.

[fergineer]

From a fast disappearing member of the flight deck, do I know how much my cabin crew earn,no. Do they know how much I earn, no. Does it affect how we fly, no. I can't fly passengers without them, they can't fly passengers without me. Do we drink together on stopovers, yes do we all buy our rounds, yes they won't have it any other way. There is a chain of command but at times it moves in strange ways, who is in charge of fighting the fire down the back, if we try it would all go to worms. Get a life people we are all in this together fly and work as a crew, it can and does work.

[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: fergineer ]

[Secret Squirrel]

It's a shame that I didn't get to see all the abuse directed at me. I walked into work yesterday and one or two colleagues mentioned that this was going down with a wry smile on their faces.

Of course, I'd just like to say that I have had no abuse from my colleagues who work behind me because they know that any comments I may have made were not directed at them or their kind. I communicate very well with my cabin crew, pursers and maincrew alike, and show them the respect they work very hard to attain. This aside, I have very little to add to what £6 has already made clear for me. I thank you for coming to my defence, £6.

I do hope that you all get a chance to read the aforementioned thread and see for yourselves that Rythm Method is the one with the chip on his shoulder; not only is he incapable of reasoned argument, but he has trouble reading also.

I will just say that the paricular phrase used was plagiarised from a thread on the BA forum. The poster shall remain anonymous as it was said on a private forum. I'm sorry that the cabin crew will not be able to verify this as it is a pilot's only forum. Strange, therefore that RM chose not to expose him/her for the same reason. As you can read from said thread on R&N, Rythm Method doesn't hold me in very high esteem. Therefore I hope you will forgive his puerile attempts to besmirch my already muddied name, I have. I actually have a rather charitable streak and none so much as those whose faculties are not all there are so deserving in my opinion. No matter, although I sometimes have a rather more direct way of saying things it seems that I am not the only one who holds certain contentious views on the role of the CSD.

Defence over I do actually have something to add to the debate:

I agree with £6 that CSD's are by no means the root of BA's ills. In fact, I'm sure one or two of them actually do earn their pennies. However, it is my understanding that they have caused some consternation, especially amoungst the 777 crews who now have to do without crew rest areas, as indeed, presumably, do the rest of the crew. The last time I was on a 777 I can assure you that the crew were less than complimentary about CSD's and they proceeded to explain why. I won't bore you with what you already know and I can see how this might even be put down to whingeing FD chatter.

Notwithstanding this, the 777 actually has a longer range than the 747-400. If they had crew rest areas they could quite easily be used for longer trips than they are. At the moment the maximum all up weight of the BA 777's are kept below a certain threshold in order to save on navigation costs. We do the same at CFE with the RJ.

In my view, and I stress that it is in MY view, this hampers some of the flexibility of the aircraft and therefore the airline.

I will also add that I don't have the bigger picture and am willing to be educated. I have seen the CSD's quarters as have most of us and you cannot deny that it is space badly utilised. What possible justification can CSD's have for requiring such a cavernous space. BA management must, of course, share some of the blame for giving in to their demands in the first place. As with so many things lately, tail fins and the purchase of CFE included it seems to have been badly thought through, n'est pas?

[paulsamcam]

Secret Squirrel, there are two rest areas on the long range 777 one is a 2 bunk unit for the flight crew at the rear of first class. The other is a 7 bunk unit above or below door 3 right for the CC. The 777 is doing lang range flying, EZE,NRT,GRU,SAN,to name a few of the destinations.
As for the CSD quarters, it's quite clear you need to have another look. It's a very tiny area that houses 18 video's the CSCP and the aircraft stationary. It's so small I never sit there, you are in the way of the flight deck door on the 777 or underneath the stairs on the 747-400,alongside bev makers, galley chillers etc
Being a CSD is a great job, one at which I work very hard at, to make sure that our customer choice BA every time. Most of my problems come from cabin crew, and yes there are times when I have to make unpopular decisions.

[Secret Squirrel]

paulsamcam

My understanding is (and I could be wrong, of course, it has been known!) that there are only three such 777's of the type you describe, the rest are not so kitted out. Whatever the number, my point is that I certainly do not remember it as 'tiny'. You may well feel claustrophibic after 8-10 hours in it but that may be, perhaps, because you don't get out of it enough.

Secondly, I have not seen the crew rest areas you mention and you will obviously know better than I whether they are adequate as compared to the 747. I bow to your superior knowledge and leave the fight in the hands of those who have the stomach for it.

As I said, it was a plagiarised comment anyway which RM has seen fit to publicise. He is right that I probably don't have much of a say in it, let alone the knowledge to back up a full campaign even if I'd wanted to; which I don't! Whether or not it is entirely sensible to pitch pilots against CSD's so openly for the sake of his own pride, I shall leave you to decide. Save any need to defend mine own honour against plebs like Rythm Method, I shall limit myself to reading with interest any further developements.

I'm sure you do work hard and make unpopular decisions, paulsamcam; we all do. Whilst I didn't detect much bitterness in your post; merely a hint of condescension, don't be surprised at having to justify your position from time to time, especially at times like these.

[Harry Wragg]

Will someone please explain the difference between a CSD and a purser. As far as I can see the debate is primarily about the requirement for additional ranks within the cabin crew community not a comparison (monetarily or otherwise) between junior flight crew and senior cabin crew.

If a ship has a captain and a purser then why does an aircraft need additional ranks? It just seems unnecessary. Do Performance Managers still exist at BA, and if so, do they still manage CSD's?

Keep it simple, a bit like me.

Harry, Senior vice-president executive in charge of semi-autonomous bi-pedal sentient lifeform.

[paulsamcam]

SS There are now 14 such 777's G-YMMA YMMN.
My previous post was to explain that I spend alot of my time in the cabin, rather than the galley area that its known as the Office.
You are quite right everyone has to defend ones position from time to time. I am very happy to justify the CSD role on 747/777 to pilots like yourself who operate on smaller aircraft, were the position would be a total waste of money.

[Paddington*]

Still waiting for an answer to my earlier query - as asked again by HW. What is the difference between a CSD and a Purser, particulary in the regions? :confused:

[flapsforty]

Pady, as no1 else is responding, I'll give it a try, but don't kill me if I'm wrong, I don't work for BA.
It seems to me that with BA there is at the top of the list of cabin crew a CSD, Cabin Services Director.
Next in line comes the Purser.

(In our mob we call it the Purser & the Assistant Purser, many USA comps call it No1 or Lead)

Hopes this helps at least a bit :)

[flyblue]

Yes Flaps, same in Froggie's Land (AF). We have the equivalent of CSD, called CCP (Chef de Cabine Principal=the big boss) and 1 (on A310 and B767 that only have 2 classes) or 2 (in all the other long range AC that have 3 classes) Pursers (Chef de CAbine=small boss!)
On Short Haul there is only one Cabin Chief, no CCP.
The CC are in charge in Business class and Economy, while the CCP pretends being very busy with video system and paperwork :D Of course no one buys this, but we are only too happy most of the times the old thing is out of our way!
I fear one day someone in the big buildings will realise they don't need a CCP, only a better video system, taking away the pleasure from the crew to go water from time to time the old plant who rooted in his/her office in fwd cabin :D :D :D

[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[Carnage Matey!]

My understanding is that in the regions the CSDs are required to crew the daily 767 service to JFK from MAN in addition to normal short haul ops.

[qfcabin]

Apparent salary inequities will always exist...second officers earning more than first officers on another fleet..csm, (or csd) earning more than some first officers..ceo earning more in an hour than some staff in a month etc..but all are a matter of separate negotiation...you get what the market will pay in your area or company. Don't bother trying to compare apples with oranges...you'll drive yourself crazy .

[flyblue]

Words of wisdom qfcabin!

[Human Factor]

As someone mentioned before, market rate determines salary (in theory), whatever your position may be.

However, no one has yet given a satisfactory answer to the following:

WHAT DOES A CSD DO THAT A PURSER DOES NOT OR CANNOT????

[Slickster]

It's just another job title, thus furthering the building of the huge empire that is Cabin Services in BA. BA shorthaul out of LGW operate with a purser, whilst LHR have a CSD. The service is identical. Only the salaries/allowances are somewhat different...! :p

[flyblue]

Ok Human factor, here is my clue:

WHAT DOES A CAPTAIN DO THAT A F/O DOES NOT OR CANNOT????

You answer this question you have the answer to YOUR question.

Happy guessing

[paulsamcam]

Slickster' at LHR the A319,A320 and the B737
can be operated with a purser in charge of the cabin. The only NBA that require a CSD are the B757 and Concorde. Most there and backs, on the Airbus and 737 operate with pursers in charge, as at LGW.

[Human Factor]

flyblue,

You've hit the nail on the head!! An aircraft cannot fly without a captain, although they can fly pretty well with pursers rather than CSDs.

Edited for poor grammar.

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: Human Factor ]

[flyblue]

Human Factor,
an aircraft can pretty well fly with two F/Os, but it's better with a Captain. Got it?

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[Doctor Cruces]

No, Flyblue, an aircraft CANNOT fly without a Captain, ask the CAA, IAA, FAA etc etc.

Doc C.

[flyblue]

:rolleyes: Anyone else needs a drawing or it is only Doctor Cruces?
:rolleyes:

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[Doctor Cruces]

Very droll. Now say something sensible. if possible!

Doc C.

[flyblue]

Here we go. Go talk about something you know something about.

[Xenia]

Uhmmm...If I know her well, I can say Flyblue is getting angry!!! :mad:
Fly hun...if drawing doesn't work, may I suggest u to try with Lego :D

[flyblue]

Are you crazy Xen???? :eek:
3D is definitely too much for SOMEONE to sort out.
And besides, IF they eventually succeeded on separating the red pieces from the blue, they would dissert on the superiority of flight crew lego players above all other human kinds, who should be incinerated, their ashes dispersed and their savings destinated to pilot's pension funds. :rolleyes:

FOR PILOTS ONLY: I am joking again, don't get mad, ok? I have expressed my opinion on this topic on page 2 of this thread, but frankly I am sick and tired of people disserting on other's functions and job without being the least competent.

[Human Factor]

Honest, I was only after a simple answer, being a simple soul. For the nth time, will somebody please explain what extra is done by a CSD compared to a purser? I'm not trying to pick a fight, would just like to know.

When I find out the answer, I'll stop asking!! :rolleyes:

[flyblue]

Ok, I will explain how it works in AF. Different names, but same stuff.
There is a CCP (=CSD), who is in charge of the Cabin Crew. It is what the JAR call the Senior C/A. The CCP is the big boss while there is one or two CC (pursers), depending on the A/C and n° of classes, who are in charge just of one portion/class of the cabin. If it is a small aircraft (such A320 etc) there is only a Purser, no need of CCP (there is a CCP only when there is at least a purser). Technically the CCP appears where the workload is bigger and more articulate. Don't forget that there are MANY things to take care of during a flight (safety/security checks, service, duty free, relations with Flight Deck, problems with pax etc), amongst which there is the not easy task of being the leader and motivator of the Cabin Crew. A good CCP can make ALL the difference, that kind of difference the pax will notice!
This is why the CCP MUST be a very skilled figure, with LOTS of experience, company knowledge, languages, common sense and psychological balance when confronted to the piles of paperwork (AARGH!)
Obviously this is very roughly explained, and if someone wishes to add he/she will be welcome.
All I can say is that I was a CCP for some years, and it is an extremely tiring job, who requires lots of skills and attention.

[alcoflyer]

C - C**T
S - STANDING BY THE
D - DOOR

[pond life]

Human Factor,

To gauge how essential the position of Cabin Service Director (CSD) is, consider the following:

If a CSD fails to report for work or there is no CSD available for any BA flight that normally carries a CSD, longhaul or shorthaul, the flight can continue with a Purser taking the role of CSD for that flight. The replacement purser can have also failed their CSD application or course.

The position and/or title of CSD is a nicety if we are making lots of money, but is it not essential or a 'no-go' rank.

Another observation/speculation:

If BA goes bust, and 'Son of BA' rises out of the ashes, I fear that longhaul pursers and CSDs will have a shock at what the market rates for their skills and experience will be.
I speculate that junior BA cabin crew and pilots would be re-hired at similar rates.
The senior cabin crew member for other U.K. companies i.e. for example 'In Flight Supervisor', 'Number 1', 'Lead Purser' etc. all earn significantly less than the average BA Purser let alone BA CSD.

On the issue of working with people that you don't like or respect:
Generally, whatever career you pursue there will be a small minority of people you don't like or don't get on with. Just accept it as a once-in-a-blue-moon event in the flight crew job. You are still obliged to respect the rank or position someone you don't like holds, and carry out your job to the minimum acceptable standard.

While I am on my soapbox!:

I do not believe the government would bail out BA if it was close to going to the wall.
The cut-throat realities of business are that the Govt might let BA go bust in order to avoid inheriting the debts BA would have. Then, the govt might step in.

[flyblue]

Pond life, you are mixing up BA procedures with JAR. The JAR, not BA, state that "an operator shall establish procedures to select the most qualified cabin crew member to operate as Senior Cabin Crew member in the event of the nominated Senior Cabin Crew member BECOMING UNABLE TO OPERATE. Such procedures must be acceptable to the Authority and take account of a Cabin Crew member's operational experience"
As you see it is stated nowhere the position of Senior C/A (whatever you want to call it) is inessential. What the JAR say about it is that "the Senior Cabin Crew member shall have responsability to the commander for the conduct and co-ordination of normal and emergency procedures specified in the Ops Manual".
A Purser may perform the role but "the senior becoming unable to operate", because in the case of an aircraft requiring a CSD, he/she is considered the Senior, and the figure of a CSD presupposes the presence of Purser(s). If you want, I could agree that a CSD is like a Purser, only with a more complicated job. Obviously, you can appoint anyone with the minimum requirements as Senior, and send him/her throwing trays (or worse, lunchboxes) at pax, but I seriously doubt you will have a huge commercial success.
A prestigious airline such as BA, with very demanding business customers needs more than tray-throwers to make them happy.

[Human Factor]

Ah, that's a bit more like it. Thanks ;)

[trevorinns]

BigBrutha said

"CHAIN OF COMMAND. Money should always reflect this" (albeit a long time ago...i've been away)

Alex Ferguson...David Beckham

QED (not)

[flyblue]

BigBrute,
are an university degree and 4 languages enough for you? And I didn't even have to try too hard! :D

[bugg smasher]

I have heard these arguments for many years, and although I’m not certain that the cabin and the cockpit can ever come to peaceful agreement, there are some things that become clear with the passage of time.

BigBrutha, your “15 seconds of life” comments reflect a boyish enthusiasm for the perceived heroism of the piloting trade, something which drew us all with very few exceptions into the profession. I wish you the best my friend, be wary and ever-vigilant for the traps you’ve yet to fall into.

Flyblue, your irritation, even through the remoteness of this electronic medium is palpable. I have the profoundest respect for your facility with languages, with people, and for the patience with which you must necessarily have in order to deal with all of this. For those of us that have been brought up with democratic beliefs and the concept of equality for all, the operation of a modern airliner perplexingly takes on an hierarchical, almost despotic chain of command that brooks no exception. It is, however, in the interests of us all that this is so.

A standing order exists within the airplane business that pilots receive far more training than cabin staff, this is a reflection of the complexity of the tasks involved and an acknowledgement of the consequences pursuant in the failure to perform same. Salaries are a direct result of this process. You are free to pursue a career in the cockpit, if that is what you desire. I would suggest, however, that your university degree and effortless facility with languages would command a far higher salary in another industry.

With respect

[flyblue]

bugg smasher,
you have hit the point. My airline knows that to have people with a good cultural background you have to pay them, otherwise most of them will go. I love my job and don't wish to do anything else. Why should I need a higher salary if I then have to be deadly bored? I am a very enthousiastic F/A, and after some years in the biz, quite skilled. And if I have never pursued a career in the cockpit (like in, say, medecine, economics, etc), it is only because I am not interested at all in it. A bigger salary is not enough for doing something I don't like. And as I am in peace with the world and myself, I don't feel diminished being "only" a F/A, as long as I am a good one!
Very happy that there are people that like their job, so we can be an happy bunch up in the sky. HAppy F/A and pilots, isn't the world perfect? :)
And by the way, my palpable irritation is only towards those that, as I said before on this thread, want to play the wiseacre about someone else's job without knowing a thing.
You get what you bargain! If people are not happy about THEIR salary, go fight for YOURS, but LEAVE THE OTHERS ALONE!

[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[snowbound]

big brutha, thankfully you're kind of arrogance is rarely witnessed downroute these days.to describe the role of c/c as unskilled workers "serving lovely drinks and things" is juvenille and tiresome.
do you spout this nonsense when you're with your colleagues or only when you are hiding behind this electronic veil.do you also seriously believe that all cabin crew are jealous of your position...and i did stick in at school/uni thanks very much...so if it all goes up the spout i am very employable in a number of fields....unlike you i suspect! i do this job because of the friendly,funny and wonderfully warm human beings that i work with, attributes that i fear you are unfamiliar with ;)

[trevorinns]

Big Brutha said "if you'd tried a little harder at school, maybe you wouldn't be working "down the back""

Where do i work? do you know? you know more than i thought!

You also say that "Premier League Football is not the same labour market as the airline business" but previously "CHAIN OF COMMAND. Money should always reflect this". Are you accepting the latter statement is disproven.

Thanks - you're not always right are you. 2 posts, 2 errors. Hope your record is better on the flight deck.

[bugg smasher]

Hello Flyblue,

I am reassured by your presence here in this business of ours. I was an unfortunate witness to a China Airlines evacuation in Manila whereby the lead FA threw burning passengers out of a burning fuselage, and continued to do so despite every chance to save herself. She is alive today, but not in a form that we would recognize. That image will be forever seared into my emotional landscape.

Semper Fidelis

bugg

[Aerienne]

Bigbrutha perhaps if you had tried a little harder at making your mariages work you wouldn't be onto your third wife by now. Oh, sorry sweeping generalisation? Must have taken a leaf out of your manual.

[snowbound]

yes but you're still an arrogant ****!

[snowbound]

.....and if you're who i think you are , i think i was shagging your girlfriend for a bit

[Sick Squid]

Yeah, yeah, alright... keep it civil, folks. Anymore of this and I'll wade in with the delete key blazing. The abuse has been rather amusing up till now, and at least buried in some substance, but I can feel it heading downhill rapidly.

The diversion is over. Back to the topic....

[yellowdog]

Been away from the forum for awhile, but looks like I've come back at a wicked time :D From what I understand, the in-charge crew member only needs 1 year on type to qualify. Therefore Pursers could quite legally 'take out' any long-haul flight, as they do at AML.
The issue of passsenger, and crew management is a totallly different kettle of fish.
In my humble opinion most of the Pursers at my company would beat the 'old school' CSD's at BA into a cocked hat. Again a generalisation but would anyone miss those bitter twisted old CSD's that only stay in their position because
1. they've only 6 years to go
2. where would they get a job, where they earnt £35000 pa and only did 120 hrs works per month
3. stay in top hotels, and shop at the best places in the world.