boring but..yes,still on ATPL exams...

[skydive53]

Hi all guys and gals...need to have some advice..rather info, on Atpl exams..I'd a look to almost the threads on the subject without find what I was looking for, so..even if all this could sound awful and boring I'm here to try...Well, here's the matter...Does any difference exist between the "Atpl modulare" and " Atpl integrato" exams?..In other words, I mean ,having a Cpl/Ir licence I've been told 'bout "credits"...this sound like the modulare exam is a bit less deadly despite the matter are the same as the integrato...Just to say..maybe they mean, i.e. talking about Navigation , in the modulare tests ones can't find some questions compulsory in the integrato test....Well hope everything's clear and to find answer to my question...quite important to me having to decide for the next future...Sorry for not writing in Italian...maybe nextif able to improve!

[papazulu]

Your typo doesn't help mate but if you mean that you already hold a CPL/ME-IR and you still don't have the 14s frozen ATPL's subjects under your belt, well...you gotta go back on the books I am afraid.

I had an ICAO (Italian) CPL/ME-IR after a conversion of the FAA equivalent and when I asked to have my paperwork issued with the JAA "branding" they sent me back to square 1 with no mercy. The only "credit" I got was for my English RT but I had alredy that on my ICAO one (with a farce-testing not much worse than the one they have in force right now) and it sounded like a real joke. For god sake...I have an FAA license, 2 English certificates issued by a UK college and...still I had to prove my English to the ENAC (CAA) man!

No "charges" were pushed for the flight part since I managed B4 the Italy stepped (with 1 foot only) into JAA-land. Little consulation, I know.

I wonder if the system changed but I think NO; don't forget that my conversion asked for the WHOLE lot of theoretical exams to be given once again using (very badly) translated FAA question banks...

Welcome in the Banana Republic...:E

PZ :ok:

[markkal]

Dear friend.... Hold on to the chore.....do not let yourself go in despair...Because that is what looms ahead if you start to reason about the sense of the Theoretical exam ATPL under JAR FCL...The JAA is not perfect but at least sound and down to hearth...

What a load of crap this JAR ATPL theoretical exam.....Same with the JAR CPL......The old italian " Commerciale" was so much better in all respects...Down to earth as well and logical.....It made sense..

This brain washing, skull stuffing Theoretical JAR FCL ATPL or CPL devised by bureaucrats in the Netherlands.......

Those Oxford training manual are indeed good ...but the Multiple choice questions that are circulating around Europe.....I believe there is a choice of 12'000 of them for the ATPL..are daunting......

Few are logical.....More are devised to trap you in the form they are written not the substance....A lot defy comprehension, probably been translated in a couple of languages before ending up in english...loosing their meaning if they had one in the first place...And many of them have the wrong answer...being right!!!!!!

So here we go, entrusted with the understanding of stellar navigation.....Great circle direction finding of remote locations identified by obscure longitude and latitude figures.....Trigonometrical calculations of engine torque gyroscopics effects....Computing off track deviation in navigation in the order ...of 001 degrees....

Young students after 2 years of brainwashing and sleepless nights....have been through all the gamut of these obscurities.....Already forgotten by the time they will be holding their shiny piece of paper....for which their fathers disbursed around 100'000 euros....In the best case...Worse if they have a loan...........

Here we go Finally... PILOTS...can barely fly a plane......Often at a loss when it comes to handling the complexities of international airspace....If not the basics of aircraft handling....


The schools. FTO'S....With the Quality Manager...the Head of Training....The Chief Instructor...The premises......their dimensions and layouts standards carefully imposed...The mechanics: after decades of work..and valuable expertise...they have to go to school and start all over !!!! get brainwashed too....NO diploma NO party.....

There we go.... the 100.000 euros each will go quickly down the drain....and then????
No money left for flying, for airplanes...for instructors...Schools strive to survive...


So "Modulare" or "Integrato" whichever you are planning to follow...Get to grips with those 12 000 questions.. Learn by hart those multiple choice quizzes...devise some way of cheating during exams...Because 80% of that is crap anyway....You will never use it and 150% of Captains with years of service will not be able to answer .....

That 20% left, which really counts and would lay the foundations for professional airmanship will be overlooked and not studied in depth..let alone remembered...

Wish you the best of luck...If you can do the "integrato" ...would definitely be quicker...Remember there is a calendar deadline in terms of how many months you are entitled to complete the whole package..THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO START ALL OVER...Bloody bureaucrats...they succeeded with making it a nightmare!!!!

[skydive53]

wow!!!what a damn story!...thanks for answering speed of sound mates...Yes...quite hard back on book 20 years later!..I'm Cpl/Ir planning for a modulare ...and before read your reply I was dreaming to get atpl in...could say..3/4 months!!!...Just realizing now not different from a Capuccetto rosso tale!..By the way..doesn't matter how hard it takes..I absolutely need it in the fastest way.or I'll spent the rest of my life grounded!...Any suggestion or good advice about where I'd start my challehge?...If not too politically correct write me pm or mail ....Someone over here ( I mean in Italy )suggested Rome anyway...Have to ....perform an English language too?
Thanks again...cheers

[papazulu]

markkal...beside the spelling mistakes (no offence meant) shell we get rid of about 15k excess dots in your post?

Or are they there because we need to put the missing words? :E

PZ :ok:

[markkal]

Hi Papazulu where are the spelling mistakes...point them out, want to correct them..thanks for support...!!!
And what do you mean by 15K ...dots..?

Just let me know
Ciao

[skydive53]

Hi all....hey! think we're trying to give a helpful hand to each other or so bros!...then...thank for answering and for doing it in english..I'm sure PZ's kidding..same way I'm sure that some more dots doesn't change the meaning and surely ain't scratch effects on the screen..( I'm a waster of dots too as you can see)....So thank you both for finding time to write...I just need some more info guys...How many quizzes ones must "fight" challengin' atpl modulare exams?..Thank in advance and...your english sound great....
c u soon...cheers

[papazulu]

I went through 6000+ myself some time ago. Pretty sure the bank has grown by now but it must be still available at some "well" reputated FTOs...:E

No need to tick all of them but be aware that many have no meaning at all, just stick on the figure/result they ask.

Makkal: I should have said "way of saying something". However my comment was refering to the stream of dots you used that make comprehension of your writing very hard.

Regards

PZ :ok:

[skydive53]

Gosh!!!Papazulu, you mean you've been through a 6000 in your exam?or they (cursed!) had to fish your qizzes among that number?...Someone's talking about a number of 12000 questions(..is that true?) right now, but they also says that's the number among they'll pick up a "X" number o' quizzes to be solved.
Sorry for being so...ignorant about pilot's stuff ...being a pilot I'd have been well aknowledged...indeed it's now quite a long time I've got my CPL and all I had to do since that time was trying to safely fly a plane.
Well...thanks again for your patience and kindness...
Cheers all...

[skydive53]

..again...just had a look to the previous post and I see that mate Markkal too is talking about 12000 questions...then must be true!
I wonder if my brain 's still able to work properly!..
Happy landings all

[papazulu]

Papazulu, you mean you've been through a 6000 in your exam?

Obviously NO!

The amount of q's asked in each paper varies from subject to subject (i.e. 22 for M&B, 90 for MET ect,ect) and you might want to ask local CAA or FTOs for the exact amounts.

6000 is what was more or less available in my days and I went through most of them as well as my mates did. 12000 is a nonsense and I wonder what they managed to question about to double the figure!

Nice time-killer for those lazy winter evenings though, better than crosswords...:E

[markkal]

About the 14 subjects invoved in the ATPL exams....Papazulu is right...You will be submitted anywhere between 35 to 90 multiple choice questions per subject ....75% of right answers will get you through......

BUT the the total amount of multiple choice quizzes from any database available for you to study , very often similar if not identical to the ones you will be tested on, circulating around various FTO's will range anywhere from 9000 to 12'000....

I should have a CD somewhere...If I have not thrown it away!!!! Would be glad to send it to you but have to look for it...May be slighly outdated about 3-4 years old but still valuable....

Each one of the subjects has from 90 to 800 multiple choice quizzes...Multiply that by 14 subjects, you get the figure...

I remembered having peeped sometimes ago in the JAR FCL site...and there was a link to a database with Multiple Choice questions for you to practice on...Can't remember if it was password protected, meaning it could be offered for a fee...Or just upon registration. Check it out, may be worth it.

So follow Papazulu advice. Besides the 500-550 compulsory hours of theory, during those dreary winter days go through the database time and time again...

You may find yourself at a loss in the beginning, but things will unravel as you go and even some of those crappy quizzes interlinked between them will have some sort of meaning enabling you to get the picture in the end.

And those Oxford manuals are quite valuable...You'll be happy to go through those where you have an interest...Just skip the others you find boring...


So get out there and study!!!
Wish you the best of luck

[skydive53]

...that makes sense!You scared me with such a number!...Yes, I'd already dialed a couple of FTO in Rome...Agree with you 'bout better than Xwords..unless you have to pass an exam then!..In this case everything is turned in a damn hard job.
By the way..guess what?At the moment I'm loving sweeping dust discovering the pleasure to learn (again!) lot of interesting things I forgot along years back...just like some amazing navigation problems...
Never say never again!
Cheers all mates

[skydive53]

Hi Markkal...thanks...I see we're not far in age to each other as I'm 54...Well..not so bad be a student pilot again after 20 and more flying years!I'll go fishing around for those on-line exams sample you mentioned...The worst thing is to be afraid about a useless and expensive effort...but this is another story, isn'it?
Thanks again...

[markkal]

Hi Skydive,

Yes we are about the same age!!!!

You may wonder why I got into this CPL crazy project.

I have completed the CPL Jar CPL (Theoretical only)...Because I wanted to get involved in instruction during my free time...

I live in Switzerland next to the French border, and have been flying since 1984...

I am happy with my PPL got it in 1984 ...and fly only aerobatics and mountain ....Just a matter of choice!!! Have owned different planes over the years....now have a Sukhoi 29 since 1995....Great plane....Cannot even think about anything that can compare to it...

So have started taking lessons in 1993, to acquire the " knowledge of CPL" as requested by JAR (FCL) regulations...Attended classes with ATPL candidates with cross checks all along the way..Fun and instructive too..

Then started the Instructor course with another nice fellow holding a PPL, together with a bunch of commercial pilots....Soon after having been through the theoretical part ( about 120 class hours) as we started the flying , we got blocked by ENAC on grounds that we needed the full fledged CPL theoretical...

We were not expecting this. New JAR (FCL) regulations permitted holders of PPL with certain requirements to complete the instructor rating provided they have the " CPL theoretical knowledge"

Since nothing is clearly stated as for how you must acquire such knowledge, and how you can be tested to prove competence...It led to interpretations...

This was it. Pull out and start all over.

We managed to take a break and have those class hours certified towards the acquisition of the "CPL"....

So we got hold of those Multiple Choice quizzes from various databanks and started to practice over and over again..Have passed all 14 exams, had to repeat 3 or 4 of them along then way.

I am nearing completion now, needing only the final practical check..

I was about to give up 2 years ago, and would not have started in the first place had I known...But after time effort and money invested, was a sound decision.

I have been following courses in Italy, could have done it in France or Switzerland...

In France, there are about 2000 instructors, Out of those 2000 only 10% hold a commercial...The rest have a PPL and work for free as voluntaries, it's a side activity for them, they just drop at the aeroclub on weekends and in afternoons in summer....They do it out of passion...

The whole foundation of french aeroclubs relies on those guys or ladies, simply because there is no money for instructors, and when there is - like the big aeroclubs- they may have one or 2 on the payroll at around 1000 euros a month...Nobody would go for a full CPL or ATPL to get this kind of money.

The system is built on such a way that an aeroclub decides to support one or more of its members to go follow the Instructor course...The French Federation stands behind the whole process, subsidising 60% of the cost. The rest is upon the candidate.(40%). After successful completion, the candidate "works" for that aeroclub on a voluntary non remunerated basis..Return on investment.

Cost is about 10'000 euros split: 60% French Federation. 40% for the candidate.

There is an entry check exam ( In Paris) - Have passed that one-
Then a preliminary skill flying test. Finally a fulll fledged instructor course of 6 weeks in one of the many FTO's or at the military style DGAC SFACT academy. Syllabus is the JAR (FCL) one.

The French where able to keep their system in force, after they joined the FAR's..Giving it up would have meant the end of general aviation...

I have chosen to go to Italy, was cheaper (7000 euros) As I would not have benefitted from any subsidies...furtherore I was able to follow a "modular" scheme over 2 years.

In France CPL or ATPL courses are seldom carried out by FTO's Aeroclubs (only very few specific schools are involved as well as the SFACT state academy).

They have professional instructors there and complex aircraft are used all along the way...So costs cannot be compared.

In Italy you can do it with the local instructor and the C 152 or P 66....That was ok with me, ...But I believe for young kids wanting to indulge into a profession, to go enroll in one of those schools..

However it is sad that with the exception of France, Switzerland and to some extent the UK, who have waived some of the rules in other to keep their system going, There is the need to have a theoretical CPL in order to instruct PPL.....

I believe that the instructor course, with the pre entry evaluation, theoretical exam ( 4 hours), practical skills test and finally the full fledged course 120 hours theory, 30 hours flight time would be more than enough to screen and provide sound candidates. Furthermore when carried out at state academies like in France.

What is the CPL ATPL logical behind all this.. Am talking about PPL of course.

The result, is that you end up having a bunch of young kids with less that 200 hours TT and all the paperwork in order, teaching at aeroclubs. Waiting to jump at the first opportunity with an airline. There are some of the old schools instructors as well but dwindling fast as they lose their licences due to age...

The French system on the contrary relies upon middle aged candidates - a lot of them well into their 50's or 60's- not on the payroll- motivated by passion only-. They have decades of experience behind them..They will never loose their licence as long as their medical is OK...

Matters get worse when you want to indulge into aerobatics and mountain flying....There you really need the people with proven expertise and decades of experience...JAR's requirements, in all but those countries where they have waived some of them, have managed to get to a point of no return.


My mountain instructor in Chambery is a legend, 18'000 mountain flying hours experience over 50 years, he is 78 years old...Was flying in Corsairs way back in 1955 in indochina (Vietnam)...JAR's requirement would have prevented him from dispensing that valuable experience to number of people, let alone passing it to future instructors.

So I may have gotten off track, but just wanted to state a few things..

I may be from the old school, not confortable with joysticks or glass cockpits. Still rely on stick and rudder. And the only computer sensing what is going on is my....butt. The "seat of the pants" feeling as taildraggers aficionados use to say.

By the way Skydive, what got you into this ATPL enterprise???

Just out of curiosity!!!!!!

[skydive53]

HI Markkal...hum..I'm a bit envious 'bout your plane!..considering I'm fighting to mantain my licence alive...sometime just doing it having flown not more than a ME/IR proficiency check!..by the way have to say that your business 'bout become flying instructor sound good..I've got my CPL/ME/IR in the middle '8os..Flying now and then (mostly on C500/550)for airtaxi companies...Can't hide in early 2000 I felt deeply tired about the useless efforts to land again a job as a pilot in GA .Then Sept 11...and more..The damn atpl required to do just the same things I was performing with my Cpl..Financial troubles..a family to drive till the end of the month...and so on...Quite a sob story mate..But I never stopped dreaming me, one day,to be back in cockpit again for job.Most of peoples says I'm too old..dunno if they're right or not..I just want to believe it's a shame to waste my flying experience..Stubborn as well.Maybe...donkey? In my way of life I know and believe a man must fight till a breath o' life makes his heart beating...And now..that things are going a bit (just a little bit) better...the "first" euro I bring out of the family account are for the bloody atpl!And I'll go for it!
Happy landings mate....
(who dares win!)....sometime...other time badly hits a wall!!!
Cheers