Pay Increases: Should Flight Deck Get Bigger Increases than Cabin Crew?

[The Guvnor]

Hot topic over on R&N is the issue of pay increases.

Flight deck people think that they should get bigger percentage increases than everyone else. Is this fair?

My attitude is that running an airline is a team effort and that pay increases should be across the board, regardless of position.

Does anyone disagree? If so, why?

[Alien Shores]

Get the semantics right for your trawl, Guvnor.. it's Flight CREW, just like Cabin Crew.. flight DECK is a place of work.

If flight crew can negotiate a higher raise than anyone else using their position then good for them. Similar for cabin crew, ground engineers anyone else; it's an international marketplace, and if people can achieve the unity of purpose and direction necessary to raise their wages as a group to the international rate for the job then that is their right.

If you want the wage, do the training, maintain the standards every six months and take on the responsibility. And we've heard all your tired arguments before, by the way; I think you've come in here with your divisive approach because no-one in the other forums gives you any credence any more and you feel you stand a chance here.

[Orangewing]

Well said,Alien Shores!! Of course flight crew should get a bigger percentage,for exactly the above mentioned reasons. Remember,if a Pilot under performs,people may die. If cabin crew (and I don't wish to belittle the fine job that they do)under perform / cock it up,then someone gets coffee spilt on them! Hardly comparable,eh? ;)

[Doctor Cruces]

Greed, Greed, Greed.

5% of what flight deck crew get is a helluvva lot more than 5% of what cabin crew get, so why not be satisfied that your differential is being maintained rather than see just how much you can actually screw out of your employer for just doing your job, which lets face it, is a pretty damn good job by any account and one you all WANT to do in the first place.

If you don't want a job where you have to maintain the standards that you do, and keep the medical standards that you do, then GET ANOTHER ONE and stop whingeing about how rotten your lot is and how poorly you are paid for it in that you only take home £40,000 a year more than the cabin chief. Grow up and get a life.

What makes you think that you are worth more of a percentage than cabin staff? Have to agree with the Guv on this one, it's team work and the team should get the same percentage.

No, I'm not cabin crew!

Doc C.

ps
Flak, letter bombs, abuse, whatever.. just hurl it, you'll only be showing yourselves up.

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Doctor Cruces ]

[Plan 10]

Wow, I'd break out the sphygmomanometer if I were you Doc, gonna burst a blood vessel with your strong opinions oh so eloquently put.

By the way, what type of aircraft do you command? Just want to see if you understand the responsibility first-hand, or not. Even then, your reply reeks of envy. What is wrong with doing a job you want to do and getting paid well for it? Particularly if that job involves responsibility.

I infer from your little diatribe against pilots that you will pour your professional oil on the waters of any doctor or surgeon who demands a wage increase (assuming of course, you are professionally qualified in that direction) because they are also doing a job they want to do? No? Or are your merits as relative, and therefore as worthless as your posturing?

By the way, "Plan 10" stares you in the face from the LHS of an A320, and I have no qulams at all about being paid less than 60% of the international rate for my job and would like to see that redressed. If you don't like it, that is your right.

Now, around about your age over 80 if I remember right, that's what you should see on the sphyg.......

Plan 10

[overstress]

Yeah, Guvnor, I disagree.

Cos you're speaking in such general terms what you have to say is meaningless.

You are hopeless, clueless and airline-less.

[sitting comfortably]

Well well doc, think you'd better get one fact straight - many Cabin Service Directors earn £10 000+ more than this A320 First Officer in my well known British airline.
Excuse me for thinking that this is a ridiculous state of affairs, after all I only spent 2 years of my life training and earning nothing to get into my RHS!How long exactly does it take to train to be a member of cabin crew? I'm not putting anyone's profession down, cabin crew of course are extremely important, but how can these salary differences be right? You're probably going to tell me that I have no responsibility since I am not the Captain, but that is not the case, and besides, is the CSD going to do the landing when the Captain becomes incapacitated?

[samson]

Yep Guv I agree pilots should, but i also support everybody getting a reasonable pay increase and bonus when work related etc. Oh btw on the other thread YES a pilot CAN override any one elses decision including atc< so there. ;)


:cool: :cool: :cool: ;) cya

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: samson ]

[flyblue]

Well said Doc, but please next time make an extra effort and write it moron-proof, so that everybody will be able to understand. Try with drawings, it seems to help in some cases!

[Doctor Cruces]

Plan 10,

Even a moran can understand the responsibility an aircraft commander has, so dont try that one. Also you haven't adequately answered WHY you think you are worth more percentage than the cabin crew. I am not saying you should not get a lot more salary than them, it is right and just that you should. Good luck in your quest for parity, I wish you well and just hope the boys and girls down the back get the same.

Sitting Comfortably,

Yeah, F/Os do get paid a lot less than Captains and it was from that viewpoint I was addressing my "assumed salary" levels. Even Ops people in some paces I have been get paid more than F/Os, now THERE'S a thing!!!

[samson]

Interesting, just what i thought :p

Thanks for posting that link :cool:


What u got to say Guvvv? :rolleyes:

:cool: :cool: :cool: ;)

[PAXboy]

a) Flight crew (especially experienced) are in shorter supply than Cabin crew.

b) If F/C leave it costs more to replace them.

Therefore, they can negotiate for more.

[Crash Barrier]

Paxboy,
The term 'Flight Crew' relates to the whole crew, not just 'Flight Deck Crew'.
My view is:

1.The job of Cabin Crew requires less training but is by no means any less important than the job of Captain or F/O.

2.Wages for Cabin Crew keep spiralling downwards and will continue due to lack of any union pressure and constant supply of new wannabe Cabin Crew.

3.Wages for flight deck are also being chopped.

4. We all know that the aircraft would probably crash without a pilot, BUT if you have no Cabin Crew you wont be getting airbourne in the first place ( unless you are a freight carrier)

5.Cabin Crew get all the sh*t in the back from ever worsening Pax.

6. As I have said on this forum the job of Cabin Crew is constantly being de-valued by the public and ponces like the fairy on Big Brother. Also it would seem that some flight deck would also join in with this belittling. It is meant to be team work after all. Fair enough pilots may get the Aircraft down in an emergency, but its the C/C that get the Pax out.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[exeng]

In very simple terms any group of workers is worth what they can successfully negotiate. So if the Cabin Crew can negotiate a deal that exceeds that given to the Flight Deck Crew then good luck to them. The opposite is also true of course.


The rules of supply and demand generally apply, although with regard to Flight Deck Crew these rules are distorted somewhat. This weeks Flight International has a page long 'comment' titled 'Labour Pains'. It makes a good read and I sincerely hope airline managers take some time out to study this publication, it could save a considerable amount of grief for many people if lessons can be learned. (Guv I don't think you need to bother as it is very unlikely that your views will ever change no matter what the realities of any given situation are.)

The Guv argues moralistically that all workers should get exactly the same % rise, and in an ideal world I would agree with that principle. However I believe it is an oversimplistic view as the principle must assume that all groups of workers started with exactly the correct 'market rate' for the job. That has never been the case, nor is it likely ever to be the case in the future.


Regards
Exeng

[mainfrog2]

Sitting comfortably you make the point that the CSD on your well known British airline can earn 10,000+ more than the F/O on A320. Maybe some pay could be related to experience as I don't think you get to be CSD by drawing straws amongst the crew at the pre-flight briefing.

[Human Factor]

If I was already being paid a market rate salary, I would have no objection to the same percentage increase as everyone else.

When I get market rate, I will have no objection!!

[Orangewing]

Crash Barrier - beg to differ, if I may.
Flight Crew = Pilots/Flight Engineers
Cabin Crew = CSD's,Pursers,Juniors etc

If you were crew,you would know that!! By the way,without a Pilot the aircraft would definitely crash, therefore disproving your comment about cabin crew being no less important than Pilots.Would you rather have two Pilots or two cabin crew become incapacitated on your flight? :D

[Crash Barrier]

Orangewing, YOU are wrong!!
I have been flight crew for the last 10 years
It sounds to me that you are just looking for a fight! It is complete B*llocks to say that cabin crew are any less important than flight deck crew. In the event of an emergency 'I say again for the benefit of 'ORANGECOCK' the cabin crew evacuate the PAX not the FLIGHT DECK CREW. Fair enough FLIGHT DECK CREW may get it down but:
A. THE A/C MIGHT BE ON FIRE HENCE PAX WOULD BURN TO DEATH IF C/C DIDN'T EVACUATE.
B. IF THERE WERE NO C/C YOU WOULD NOT MOVE OF THE STAND IN THE FIRST PLACE!

You are a complete prat and deserve to work for the orange outfit who obviously do not practice CRM like the rest of us. Your attitude will probably lead to a serious incident in the near future.

[deepvainpain]

God this debate seems to be getting very heated. Was quite afraid to put up an opinion for fear of getting my head bitten off. As I've read the replies I could not help but notice that The whole point of the discussion seems to have been lost and replaced with petty bickering. Can we have a bit more professionalisim please as the back biting is getting us no where.
That said I'll now attempt to give you my opinion. In a perfect world pay increases would be equal but sadly this is not the case. At the end of the day airlines value the Ladies and Gents at the front far more than us cabin crew. This is simply due to the fact that they are far harder to replace. I have a lot of respect for Flt crew and the years that they have taken to get were they are. I personnally would not like the responsibility that they have on their shoulders and beleive that their pay should reflect this, which often it does not.
Unfortunatly Cabin Crew are easily replaced as there are so many out there that wish to do our job. Sadly many do not stay in the proffession because of low pay, which the airlines will not greatly raise because of our disposability. How many times do you get on a flt where half the crew have been flying for less than a year? Experienced crew are becoming a rare thing. How different is it in the states where Cabin Crew are better paid. Us as crew have to wait until airlines realise that experienced crew make a better airline. We have the abilities that ensure that pax travel with us again and can pass on our experience to newwer crew. I as crew believe that we do have a vital role in every day flying and emergency situations, but to compare our trining to that of the flt crew seem a little stupid. I am not saying that we are below the flt crew, are jobs are just entirely different!!!!!
We should try to stop arguing about our roles in the airline and just except the differences and try to work as a team,as that is what counts in the end. So much for CRM.

[The Guvnor]

It seems to me that the majority of respondents are flight deck, rather than cabin crew!

Alien Shores - Flight Crew = everyone. Flight Deck = people at the pointy end.

Orangewing - in an emergency requiring an evacuation, don't forget it's the flight deck bods that do a runner asap - leaving the cabin crew to handle the safe evacuation of the pax. This has resulted in the deaths of numerous cabin crew members. In addition, cabin crew members have been frequently attacked (including stabbings); and we all know the problems of air rage. As frontline troops, they have to handle everything that is thrown at them; and they should be rewarded for that.

Sure, sitting comfortably, some CSDs/pursers earn good money: and better than that of some FOs. That said, they have been at it a lot longer than some FOs and have much greater responsibility. Think of them as the Captains of the cabin!

Anyway, this threads seems to be moving away from my original question which is:

is it fair that pilots are demanding greater percentage increases than the rest of an airlines' employees?

My position is that increases should be across the board and that exceptional work on an individual basis should be awarded with bonuses.

Comments?

[Vertigobabe]

ORANGEWING

You would have to be a shining example of why pilots are not hired for their personality.
What a small mind you have to assume that the worst thing cabin crew could do is spill coffee....
If a cabin crew member forgets to disarm a slide...goodbye customer service officer.
If a cabin crew member is not on the ball and a passenger becomes hypoxic...that person will die.
And who is responsible for evacuating all those passengers?
It is a team effort up there and I'm sure I would not be the only one who is tired of this "us and them" attitude.
Orangewing put your brain into gear before you post.

[Alien Shores]

Guvnor, I know you are never knowingly wrong and I have never seen any evidence on Pprune to prove that you would ever admit you were, but the semantic division is and always has been Flight and Cabin who together make up the Crew of an aircraft. A certain UK airline recently changed from "Flight Crew Orders" to "Flying Crew Orders," to emphasise the JAROPS requirement for distribution of certain sections of the Ops manual to Cabin Crew as well as Flight crew.

Had they distributed all the copies to Flight Deck, the door would not have been able to be closed, as it is a location. Tech Crew, Cockpit Crew, whatever, doesn't change the fact that Flight Deck is a room.

Still .. the two jobs are vastly different in terms of legal, personal and corporate responsibility. The relationship is synergistic however, (one cannot fully function without the other, nobody will argue that ) but there is an international marketplace for the technical and professional skills of flight crew that simply does not exist for cabin crew, whether or not you like it, or agree with it. Therefore, I feel they are certainly within their rights (every group, that is, but it's flight crew you choose to highlight) to ensure that their salary provides a fair reflection of the going rate for the job, on an international like-for-like comparison.

Spelling!!! the bnae of my liff!

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: Alien Shores ]

[Human Factor]

Just to clarify the situation:

AIRCREW/FLYING CREW - folks who fly for a living

FLIGHT CREW - pilots & flight engineers

CABIN CREW - cabin crew

[edited to comply with JAROPS and with apologies to rayofsunshine!] :D

[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: airforcenone ]

[deepvainpain]

Who gives a ***** what we are all suppposed to be called for.
We are all there to do the same job in the end' they land the thing and we get them off that is what we are employed to do. At the end of the day we all know that if it got toodangerous we would be the first ones off. I would like to meet a crew member who would not evacuate first if the situation was gettin too bad. How many of us would go back for the flt deck, I wouldnt if my life was in danger!!Shallow I know but I know peolple who were in evacuations and the flt deck did not give a **** about the cabin crew. Imagine a self susstaining fire", who would go back in. I Know people who have been in decommpresions and pax have not given a *****. They were the heros of the incident. And too top it off they were all junior cabin crew, so good on them. I know the situation was not vital but they got all the pax away from the ac in a good time. How many of us can say that. I have been flying for over 3 years and U I still **** myself when anything goes wrong. And I have had my fair share of emergency situations. DOB. Decomopresions, Hypoxia, Epilepsy, Heart attact, Being Beaten up etc :rolleyes:

[rayofsunshine]

hi guys i just thought i would add my bit .i am a flight engineer (yes we do stil exist!) and i fly charter trips for a major uk holiday co. during the coures of an average flight i often have to go back into the cabin to help sort verious problems(not a luccsury that you have on modern two poilot ac)and also on possitioning trips ive hung around the galley makeing cups of tea and have seen first hand the s**t cabin crew have to put up with.in my view they can never be paid enough.i would have been sacked for thumping one of them years ago! more importantly dont forget they are the ones who risk them selves when it all goes to rat s**t at the end of the rwy. finaly as far as i am concerned we wre all part of the same crew the trem cabin crew only determins where on the ac you work ,you will never be paided enough!!!

[cabinkitten]

In my opinion all crew get a raw deal, there are ludicrously low scales of pay on both sides of the cockpit door.

Junior F/O s who after shelling out tens of thousands to get the relevant qualifications can look forward to a £32,000 starter rate with the worlds favourite. Big money some paperclip pushers may argue...not so cushy a deal though when you consider the loan/ cadetship repayments, cost of London living and the sheer responsibility of the job ....

I don't think I need elaborate on new entrant cabin crews bumper £8,200 starter salary extravaganza...

All in all if the airline sheared off some of the Waterside cappuccino swillers, (How crucial is the manager of space available really Mr Eddington ?) stopped printing its ideas on money management on multi colourway laminate paper (posted first class to all employees) and put a stop to all the 'putting people first, passion for service' hokum there might be a little spare cash left in the coffers...

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: cabinkitten ]

[Human Factor]

Cabinkitten,

The rate you quote (£32k) applies only to Direct Entry Pilots who already have previous experience (other airlines,air force). Cadet entrants (sponsored by BA or self-sponsored) start on £22k!!

Sponsored cadets then pay back £200 per month to BA for their training. Self-sponsored people pay back a hell of a lot more!! :eek:

[rayofsunshine]

deepvainpain just a small point mate Flight Deck= pilots AND flight engineers

[rayofsunshine]

deepvainpain sorry mate that was ment for airforceone!!!!!

[cabinkitten]

Sorry airforcenone. I took my info from a recent edition of 'the Log' where they didn't specify the lower rate.

And I thought 32k was a pittance...

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: cabinkitten ]

[GalleyWench]

Guv, As most of us are unionized our increases are directly related to our solidarity at negotiation time and our negotiators skills, as well as the companies profits at time of negotiation regardless of who we are (front end/back end). Come negotiating time, if there was money to give the pilots a substantial raise, or even the mechanics, I expect the same. Not to be put in their pay strata, but to be given a raise. Take a look at Continental Airlines who hired mgmt from outside the airline world. By introducing profit sharing distributed EQUITABLY amongst ALL, they turned their airline around and made their employees proud to work for an airline that for years was the posterboy for what greed can do (Lorenzo).

[Human Factor]

Apologies to rayofsunshine for forgetting Flight Engineers, an essential extra pair of eyes!!

Now going back to edit my previous post ....

[darkstar_45]

hmmmmmmm, gee this is a hard one

Lets see,
Pilots - responsible for alot of lives
Cabin Crew - responsible for dishing out
food and keeping people comfortable

hmmmmm - cant imagine which one should get
the bigger pay increase!

[deepvainpain]

Darkstar could you be more patronising. If I were you, every time you fly tell the cabin crew your opinion of them. Then if anything goes wrong we'll see who is willing to save your ass!!!!!

[sitting comfortably]

So Guv how exactly does a CSD have more responsibility than an FO? I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid well, just not as well as me! I repeat, who lands the aircraft half the time in normal ops. and every time the Captain is incapacitated?

Yes Flight Deck Crew should get bigger increases than Cabin Crew, as people won't stay at an airline where they're being underpaid compared to the rest of the industry. Without the ability to pick exactly which pilots BA wants, it inevitably loses a part,at least,of its most important asset-safety, and public confidence therein as a result. Believe me I know plenty of people who would fly BA without any of its comforts, purely to benefit from its safe operation.

[GalleyWench]

Sitting Comfortably, The Pursers/CSDs//Lead Flight Attendants- whatever your airlines terminology are renumerated more for their leadership and extra responsibilities as compared to the rest of the crew. The captain is paid more than you for the same reason. By the time most of have reached that level of our careers, which, are the hightest pay we can achieve , we usually have been flying 10 years plus and attend much extra training and do much more paperwork,reports,etc on our own time than do the cabin crew. While no one argues that you have important responsibilities-why does it bother you that SOME of us earn MORE than some of the entry level pilots? You will go on to earning more after putting in your years, we will NOT. Does it also bother you that senior mechanice may earn more than you or is it because our job is perceived by you to be a fluffy choice? Perhaps you should follow around a GOOD purser/csd one day to see all that their job entails, your brief encounters with them on a random flight do not paint the full picture (just as our brief view of your responsibilities does not give us a clear view of yours). I think none of the cabin crew posting here are saying give us more than others, but if you get a 5% raise, as do the ground staff and mechanice, what objection could you have to us getting the same amount? THAT is what this discussion is about.

[William Thurston]

Tell you what I'll do. Next time the weather is in the tank, and a decision has to be made the fuel requirements and alternates, or when the engine fails I'll call the cabin attendent and ask her or his opinion on what should be done about it. In return, when we ditch, or the coffe maker is inoperative, or maybe there is a sick passenger, you feel free to call me for help.
I'll bet I can answer and perform better than you, if not, I'll give you my pay.

[Sick Squid]

Despite the spin given by the title of this thread I do not want to see it deteriorate into the handbags-at-dawn battle across the cockpit door wot it looks to be screaming towards. Please bear that in mind before posting.

Although the Guvnor has posed his question in a general manner, and phrased it in a way which in my opinion incites this very polarisation and antagonism arising now, lets try to avoid it as NO-ONE benefits from a slanging match.

Right, back to pulling the legs off spiders...

Sick Squid

[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[Human Factor]

Galleywench,

I think many of the flight crew would agree with my (hopefully reasonable) view at the top of page 2.

At BA, the pilots are not paid market rate salaries (compared to Lufthansa, United and the other majors). We need a one-off jump to reach similar levels to them. Once we are on a par, as I have already said, the same percentage increase as the other departments would be fine.

If we don't get the one-off jump, then we will lag further and further behind and will eventually need an even bigger jump, which will cause the company far more grief than just doing it now.

Having said all that, I'm not begrudging any department getting the best deal it can! :)


Guvnor please note.

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: airforcenone ]

[Secret Squirrel]

Guvnor

You are so sad. Sick Squid, and indeed most of us, have seen through your little scam. I suppose that because you can't get an airline of your own running you thought you'd blow the cobwebs off the Divide & Rule board game which you've been itching to try out for real, but have never had the chance.

Please everybody, just ignore this person; despite his claims he has absolutely no interest in revolutionising the industry for the benefit of all its workers and public. His only mandate is to weaken the strongest; in this case the qualified personnel, because in any airline they are the ones who provide management with the biggest headaches.

Please don't take some of the comments made here by pilots towards CC as common attitude, it's not. Some before me have done a much better job of explaining exactly why and how we can manage to exceed higher increases so I won't plagiarise them.

Honestly, ignore the Guv, he's a frustrated management type who obviously has a great deal to learn about this industry.

[The Guvnor]

Actually, the answer I wanted to see was that given by GalleyWench at the top of this page.

I'm also rather flabbergasted to see the number of people here who, despite my reiterating seveal times that I'm talking about percentage pay increases still persist in thinking that I'm suggesting that CC should be paid the same as FD!!

Curiously, most of those people seem to be FD... :D :D :D

[Doctor Cruces]

Sitting Comfortably,

How often do you fly with an incapacitated captain? From your posts it would appear to be at least "often."

I wouldn't suggest for a second that pilots/FEs should get the same pay as CC, but no one has yet explained logically why they should get a bigger PERCENTAGE increase. We've had all the ego resonses, but as yet no reasoned argument as to why this should be.

Doc C.

[max_cont]

Govnor, one for you to answer. Why should a director join a company, totally screw the flying staff, reduce resources below a level needed to run a flying program? Then, you float said company and move on to pastures new with a lovely bonus worth a few million from the board of directors.

I don't know what percentage that's worth, but I reckon we aircrew would love a slice of that.

It might make up for all the nights, weekends and holidays spent working while YOU f*cked off home and turned the phone off.

Many appologies to all aircrew here. We're a team and I hate w*nkers like the Guvnor, who love to divide and rule.

PS Yes I am Flt crew and we ALL do a very important job. We can do without most of our managers though. :D

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]

[The Guvnor]

Max_Cont - FYI, I disapprove completely of the practices you describe. Certainly, every member of staff in all the companies I've run or been involved with have my home and mobile numbers (and Motorola callsign/channel where applicable) and I've been available 24/7.

I'm really rather puzzled as to why you think I'm trying to 'divide and rule' FD and CC - do you not think that this issue is one that is relevant and should be discussed openly? If not, why not?

Doc Cruces is right. We've had all the emotional responses (almost entirely from FD, btw) yet no one has yet been able to come up with any logical, well reasoned argument as to why FD should get bigger percentage increases than CC.

Especially bearing in mind that the £ value of equal percentage increases will be much greater, bearing in mind the higher base salaries for FD!!

[Cart_tart]

We (Pilots & FA's in our airline) get a pay rise each year in accordance with the C.P.I. It is the same percentage for each of us. (3% this year) Obviously a pilot's 3% will be a lot more than a FA's 3% but at the end of the day we're getting the same amount which is fair when it is an unnegotiated rise. When it comes to negotiating pay rises - as some one has said previously in this thread - each group negotiates their own and you get as good as you fight for.
Of course Pilots should receive more money than flight attendants...if they screw up we all go down. But for certain ones of you just to say that FA's are there to serve food and keep the pax comfortable...grrr you make my blood boil!! The primary duty of a flight attendant is to ensure the safety of those on board. And that includes you Pilots!!! Floridaboy, you say that next time an engine fails you'll get a FA in to ask their opinion. Like we'd know (unless of course the said FA is a pilot & I do fly with a couple!) and we don't pretend to know. That's your job & that is why it should be undisputed that pilots are paid more. But you really are ignorant to say that all we have to worry about is a broken coffee brewer in a ditch. :mad:

[mainfrog2]

I'm going to have a word with my union and ask about a big fat pay rise negotiation for me and if I get it tough **** to the rest of ya!

- or maybe if everybody's unions joined forces in pay negotiations maybe a more united force could be put up in front of management and so a better deal for everyone.

I don't mind getting paid less than flight deck crew (I've seen some other threads, I know what you like to be called) so long as I'm paid, but if the cabin crew unions can get me a better deal than pilots then so be it.
That seems to be the way things work.

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: mainfrog2 ]

[max_cont]

Guvnor, you must think we aircrew are really dim. You well understand what a collective bargaining agreement is.

You don't mean you want to conduct individual pay talks with all staff members do you, you want to reduce the collective clout of the FD by reducing their percentage in a vote.

A significant percentage of CC are on temporary contracts and are very easily bullied. In the company I work for these CC are even too frightened to go sick. If they did they won't get kept on.

A lot(not all) of CC only work in the industry for two years average. They do not consider long term implications such as P.H.I or pension rights when they go to the negotiations. I watched in fascination when my CC colleagues voted away a right to refuse to go to dangerous destinations, all for a couple of quid. When I highlighted the implications of this during a chat, it became clear that this had not been considered.

I on the other hand, have been in this company for 13 years. Because of the seniority system, I will spend the rest of my working life here. My FD colleagues are in the same boat. We therefore have different aspirations for our careers to that of a 19 year old boy/girl.

You knew all of this, didn't you? You pretend to be a new breed of boss whow cares deeply, but in reality you only want to reduce the power of a significant group of long term staff.

I've lost track of all the different directors this company has had. You guys just jump from company to company and slot straight in on the same rung of the ladder. If we FD had the same system, my salary would be on par with the INTERNATIONAL rate, just like yours.

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]

[The Guvnor]

Max_Cont - just because that happens, is it fair? I think not. You were the one accusing me of trying to 'divide and rule' a few posts ago, but here you're basically saying that you're looking out for number one and sod the rest. Now that shows lots of concern for your colleagues ... not!!

I don't understand what you're saying here: "you want to reduce the collective clout of the FD by reducing their percentage in a vote." The voting power of FD in any ballot is (or should be) dependent on the number of people involved. The percentage I've been talking about is the percentage of pay increase - my position is that it should be equal and across the board for everyone: from the most senior management to the tea lady.

Don't you think that if the pay and conditions of CC were improved greatly, that would incentivise people to stay on? I'd be interested to hear how long CC members here have been working - I'd suspect that in the majority of cases, it would be considerably longer than just two years!

Explain to me, please, why you don't think that the following scenario would work:

1) Everyone (ie all company employees: FD, CC, ground, technical, ops, management etc) is on good, market related base pay.

2) Everyone gets the same - CPI - pay increase on an annual basis

3) Everyone gets profit share, based on a combination of length of time with the company and how well they have done as an individual and/or team member. Target levels are public and fully transparent (ie no behind the scenes goal-shifting or smoke-and-mirrors).

Oh, and here's one you'll like. No fixed seniority system - rather one that is ability based. You're good - you go fast track. The people who are not interested in progressing to P1, or Shift Supervisor, CSD, Purser, Manager or whatever are looked after by the 'time served' portion of the profit share system; those that want to move forward quickly (and have the ability to do so) can and obviously receive higher levels of base pay.

[max_cont]

GUVNOR, the math is easy. One crew = 2FD+9 CC. If 6 out of 9 are short term temporary contract CC, they vote for short term gain. Some are only doing it for a bit of a change and have no intention of staying long term. If you add 3 senior CC and 2 FD that =5. Therefore we still lose the ballot in favour of what the short term temporary CC want. They, as I said in the earlier post sometimes have different priorities.

IT IS NOT ABOUT SOD YOU I'M ALRIGHT. It is about looking after my CAREER. Just like YOU look after yours. I worked bloody hard to get in the RHS and only now after 13 years do I get a go at the LHS.

FYI, the two year average is the figure quoted to me by the company I work for. We're a charter outfit that has been going for 40+ years.

You may want to know that I do understand what CC think and say behind "closed doors". My partner of 6 years, is a senior CC member with 9 years sevice with this company. She won't make cabin manager for a long while yet. Her terms and conditions ARE erroded by the short term temporary CC. We're NOT talking hypothetically here. When she votes NO, the ballot is still lost because the long servers are in the minority.

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]

[The Guvnor]

Max Cont - you still didn't answer my questions:

1) don't you think that CC would stay a lot longer if it was worth their while (and which would address your very valid issues of a 'short term' outlook); and

2) the pay/benefits proposal I set out.

[max_cont]

Guvnor, yes it would be a good idea to pay a decent salary to CC. I think around 15K to start, with annual increments for the next 7 years. You could then on promotion get a basic of 23k with increments for the next 7 years and then again when promoted start on a basic of 32K with increments. I look forward to reading about this new pay offer in due course.

As to pay and conditions. I hate night flying. I'm willing to give up a percentage point on any pay deal not to have to do it. The tea lady and most office staff don't work at night, so they won't vote for that. However, they would volunteer ME to work all the nights the company wanted. You would agree to pay the entire workforce an extra .5 percent. So on the ballot, we aircrew are outnumbered and we subsequently lose the vote.
If you don't mind, I'd rather not get shafted by the tea lady.

The fast track idea is open to abuse. Mini boss gets promoted and all of a sudden, mini bosses friends get a promotion too. Or "hello F/O blogs, crewing here, if you agree to work on a day off for no pay, we'll put in a good word for you with the command selection board" Or "hello Capt xyz, if you agree to sharp pencil the duty hours, we can offer you a training post". No Guvnor, the system we have is far from perfect, but I can't think of a better one.

If you DO run an airline, drop me a line with the wonderfull package you keep pushing. I'm looking for a direct entry command on B767's. I'm ETOPS cleared, dual rated on the B757 and I have around 9000 hours. 7500 on commercial jet transports. I look forward to your e-mail. :D

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]

[Orangewing]

Biscuit chucker,I think you may have over reacted slightly;had a few VB's,by any chance?! Your point is irrelevant,I am employed as a Pilot,not as cabin staff and so the likelihood of me overseeing evacuating 250 pax is about as likely as you having to perform a single engined NDB with an incapacitated commander.I may be narrow minded,but I believe respect is something that has to be earned,and I have respect for a lot of c.c I fly with.At the end of the day I was not employed for my personality (or lack of),but my ability to fly an aeroplane,and that may one day save your a**e and everyone else's.
My sincere apoligies for digressing from the thread,but I could not allow the comments to pass without defending myself.
Regards. ;)

[mainfrog2]

Orangewing - I thin you'll find that having personality is fundamental to gaining peoples respect. Depends on whether people respect you generally as a person or your peers respect you for your flying ability, their not the same thing.

I still think we are worth whatever we can claw off them regarding pay.

[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: mainfrog2 ]