Optus 3G for GA

[Crosshair]

Is anyone using Optus 3G services in the air? Does it work well?

It would be really helpful to be able to overfly a town and get the BOM radar and other weather data for the upcoming part of my track.

I'm tied to Optus (and generally happy with them) due to my employer's contract with them.

[bentleg]

Its not Optus 3G but this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=293873&highlight=optus)might be of interest

[Ovation]

It's a comfort to be able to know what the weather is like in real time en-route or at your destination, especially when your WX brief is 4-5 hours old.

I use a Telstra NextG PCMCIA card (a rebadged Sierra 875 Aircard) in a Fujitsu P1610 Lifebook. Without an external antenna I was able to log in about 50 NM to the SW of Emerald QLD at 9000 ft.

When I feel the need to know, I look at the BOM weather watch radar, lightning activity and intensity and satelllite images.

I have managed to buy an external antenna which is yet positioned in the a/c (it took an effort to locate one).

In the process I picked up that the USB aircards are not as good as the PCMCIA aircards because their antenna is more compact.

In the USA you can get comprehensive weather and TAF's (and more) by subscribing to the XM satellite service and viewing through a G1000 panel or a Garmin 496 portable.

[tinpis]

Strewth...umm... anyone look out the window these days ?? :uhoh:

[Ovation]

tinpis

Appropriate name tinpis, matching the intelligence of your comment. Are you a pilot? If you can't make a constructive contribution maybe you should keep your thoughts to yourself.

You comment shows unawareness that aircraft can fly IFR in IMC where you will only see lots of white stuff. I have done IFR flights in IMC from 500' at departure until breakout on an ILS, VOR or NDB approach.

Your flight might be IFR in VFR conditions, with an INTER or TEMPO forecast or CB activityat the destination.

Yes, looking out the window is useful if there's something to see, as is changing levels to get a look ahead, but your view can be limited when between layers/in rain and mist etc.

Consider a flight non-stop from Parafield to Mackay around 5+ hours.

Armed with the latest Area and TAF forecasts, it will already be 1 hour old by the time you launch. Flightwatch will update your forecast if you ask, but why not avail yourself of useful real time information?

By the time you're preparing to arrive at your destination, you have the opportunity to make an informed intelligent decision to continue or divert, or plan whether you will need to do an Instrument Approach and prepare for that.

Real time in-flight weather data makes for an informed and safer IFR mission.

[tinpis]

Bet ya cant get holding requirements taken off by telling the man in the tower yer can see with ya little telephone thingy

I never flew missions,are they harder than normal transport ops? :hmm:

[ScottyDoo]

hey Tin, betcha don't even know what IFR stands for.....

Ya not missing much, only The Rat drivers get to fly missions! Oh, and them pommy Nigels.

Fancy phones?? Why not just call up on the wireless and ask what the weather is doin.....??? :rolleyes:

[Unhinged]

Ovation, I know that tin can defend himself perfectly well, however ...

I can't help observing that, with your reaction to his very reasonable comment, it's no wonder your occupation is listed as "unemployed"

Settle down and listen to those vastly more experienced and wiser than yourself occasionally - It'll do you a world of good

[Ovation]

Ovation, I know that tin can defend himself perfectly well, however ...

Let him then - what valuable contrbution can you make to the discussion about 3g or Next G airborne or are you another luddite looking out the window at 8/8 cloud?

I can't help observing that, with your reaction to his very reasonable comment, it's no wonder your occupation is listed as "unemployed"

Very reasonable comment - what rubbish! Disparaging comments without valid reasons or argument don't add value to the subject of this discussion.

BTW, I'm not really unemployed - it's to throw people off the scent of all my money.

Settle down and listen to those vastly more experienced and wiser than yourself occasionally - It'll do you a world of good

Show me any part of tinpis's response that demonstrates experience and wisdom and I'll donate $5,000 to Angelflight.

[ScottyDoo]

Bah...... I flew my first 4000hrs in smashers and never needed any fancy gadgetry, not that there was any back then.

When we wanted to know the weather, we looked out the window and we never spoke back to our elders.

You've got too much money, Ovaryation, and therefore could not possibly be a real professional pilot. :hmm:

[PinkusDickus]

Bah...... I flew my first 4000hrs in smashers and never needed any fancy gadgetry, not that there was any back then.

When we wanted to know the weather, we looked out the window and we never spoke back to our elders.

Tinpis, Scottydoo and Unhinged. I must be missing something here. What are you trying to tell us about airborne 3G access?

I have an idea. Start a thread and explain the benefits of looking out the window in IMC, and why it's better than being informed and confident about enroute and terminal WX.

[Crosshair]

Woohoo! I started a small war! Neat. Totally unintended.

Ovation, thanks for the information you provided. My reaction is: It's unfortunate that Optus doesn't care much about the bush, and it's unfortunate that Telstra is so hard to deal with as a customer.

Carriers like their customers to take several of their services, and it can't possibly be cost-effective to take voice service from one and data service from another. But I will see what I can do.

As for the merits of looking out the window versus consulting gadgets: Looking outside is obviously important, but there are things you just can't get that way (the location of storms and heavy rain 100 miles away, for example). Internet information would be useful when answering questions like, "Should I stop here, at this major town, because I know there are probably thunderstorms ahead, or press on?" If you could only react to what you see out the window, then your options might be more limited when you saw the problems.

With respect to the radio: We no longer have dedicated Flightwatch frequencies (without any discussion, as far as I know, and without even advance advertisement in the ERSA, but this is the subject for another thread). Having to barge in on an area frequency to ask about the weather -- possibly the weather as it concerns VFR flight -- often seems an imposition on others who want to use the frequency. I do it, because I now have to, but I don't like doing it.

Much better: Internet access to METARs, TAFs, and other weather data by Internet. More information, better information, and no imposition on others.

[tinpis]

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/laughatu.gif "Should I stop here, at this major town, because I know there are probably thunderstorms ahead, or press on?"


I can see that workin well with the Captin Blighs that run charter outfits up the Top End

[Crosshair]

I can see that workin well with the Captin Blighs that run charter outfits up the Top End

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm a private pilot trying to stay well within my capabilities, and the more information with which to make decisions well in advance, the better.

[tinpis]

Oh...private pilots? :eek: I thunk by the mouthful of abuse I copped from Ovaryation I was about to learn something from someone that knew what they was doing.
tinpis
Appropriate name tinpis, matching the intelligence of your comment. Are you a pilot? If you can't make a constructive contribution maybe you should keep your thoughts to yoursel

[Ovation]

Oh...private pilots? I thunk by the mouthful of abuse I copped from Ovaryation I was about to learn something from someone that knew what they was doing.

Tinpis

You got a spray because of your childish and pointless contribution to the subject, but I invite you to have the last word.

Demonstrate you obvious knowledge and experience with an intelligent discourse about 3G airborne connection.

We're waiting...............

[tinpis]

Well I pulled about 3G doin loops in the olden daze in Tiger Moths,mind you that was only guessing coz I didnt have a little clock tellin me.....

[j3pipercub]

This stuff is fantastic, nothing quite like a good ole Prune slanging match.

Just a thought though...Looking at the BOM weather radars, they are always at least 10 minutes behind the actual time and to be perfectly honest in my experience, aren't that accurate if the radar is over 100km from your destination. Furthermore they cannot be relied on as a acceptable weather source. Just remember that when you're answering CASA's questions at the coronial enquiry as to why you chose to ignore the current TAF and went off the Weather Watch Radar...

[tinpis]

Ok sorry no fooling around this is what I really think.:hmm:

The subject of 3G airborne operations has been covered intensively by the world press over the past decade. In depth analysis of 3G airborne operations can be an enriching experience. Though 3G airborne operations is a favourite topic of discussion amongst monarchs, presidents and dictators, it is important to remember that "what goes up must come down". Inevitably 3G airborne operations is often misunderstood by those politically minded individuals living in the past, who just don't like that sort of thing. Complex though it is I shall now attempt to provide an exhaustive report on 3G airborne operations and its numerous 'industries'.
Social Factors
Society begins and ends with 3G airborne operations. When The Tygers of Pan Tang sang 'It's lonely at the top. Everybody's trying to do you in' , they must have been referring to 3G airborne operations. A childs approach to 3G airborne operations helps to provide some sort of equilibrium in this world of ever changing, always yearning chaos.
Did I mention how lovely 3G airborne operations is? It breaks the mould, shattering man's misunderstanding of man.
3G airborne operations
The statistics make it clear that 3G airborne operations is a major market factor. Seemingly the annual military budget plays in increasingly important role in the market economy. In the light of this free trade must be examined.
Political Factors
Politics was once a game featuring competitors from elite classes. Politicians find it difficult to choose between what has become known in politics as - 'The two ways' - the two, equally popular approaches to 3G airborne operations. If the reader is unaware of these, they need only to turn on the television, or pick up a newspaper or popular magazine.
In the words of the famous political Bartholomew Tuigamala 'People in glass houses shouldn't through parties.' Amazingly, he new nothing of 3G airborne operations until he was well into his thirties. It is a well known 'secret' that what prompted many politicians to first strive for power was 3G airborne operations.
One of the great ironies of this age is 3G airborne operations. Isn't it ironic, don't you think?
Conclusion
To conclude, 3G airborne operations plays a large part in the lives of all. It enlightens our daily lives, influences the influencers,, though 3G airborne operations brings with it obvious difficulties, it is truly 3G airborne operations.
I will leave the last word to the famous Macaulay Lennon: 'You win some, you lose some, but 3G airborne operations wins most often.'

[PilotHTR]

Love this thread.
At risk of answering the question.....
I experimented with a Next-G enabled smartphone about this time last year coming back from Perth (To Melb). We flew VFR (although IFR rated and equipped) for the simple pleasure of it and the fact that others travelling with us were not IFR capable. Note that one of these was a (the?) leading well-known aerobatic display pilot.
I used my 'phone (where a signal existed - about 21% OF THE TIME) to get radar images and TAF/TTF enroute. Fun where we could get it, and interesting.
BUT...........none of the info I got altered ANY of our decisions. We amended and made plans based on what we could see or on traditional forecasts. I thinks it's called airmanship and also has something to do with compliance with regulations.
Perhaps the greatest example occurred at Forrest, where no internet services were available (airborne) to show us the storms to the east. But all the 36 pilots who shared that evening will testify to the wall of black plainly visible to the east. Great night it was too!!!
I must admit we had a chieftan with us that had Wx radar, and across those expanses it did give some amount of help. You might note that at one point the BOM radar into Adelaide indicated a few light showers, whilst out our windscreen we could see the 3 dirty great cells that were trying to eat us. They also painted some lovely red/black pictures in the Chieftan's radar. So I wouldn't bet the farm on the reliability or currency of the BOM online services.
I have not used it since (indeed, I junked the smartphone for something sleeker and less temperamental).
I simply don't think the telephone technology is robust or widespread enough the rely on.......and that's what you seem to be wanting to do Ovation.
Tin and all the others here have probably flown more hours that you ever will, and do not warrant being attacked. Tech can be good, but commonsense and caution is better..
Cheers

[Victim Air]

Ovation, based on the evidence in post #19, I think you owe Angelflight a lazy 5G.

[Ovation]

Posted by Pilot HTR

I simply don't think the telephone technology is robust or widespread enough the rely on.......and that's what you seem to be wanting to do Ovation.

You're speculating about my motivation - I want to use every WX tool I can before I leave home, and during flight. I've been misled by AF's, TAF's and AERIS's, and had the sh!t frightened out of me as a result. I am extra cautious about WX and yes, I use the MK1 eyeball in flight which has range limitations and is useless in cloud (unless it gets dark suddenly).

BTW, I flew Jandakot to Adelaide the Monday after the 2006 Red Bull Race (non-stop in piston single) and was ahead of a Chieftan that diverted to Forrest or Esperance. I was fortunate (planned to) to be ahead of the weather, but the pilot of the Chieftan sounded seriously worried about the weather ahead and you could hear it in his voice. Was he with your lot?

As for technology, if you can get updates en-route it's way ahead of being fat, dumb and happy. To get the most up-to-date TAF and Area Forecasts between Charleville and Mackay is in conflict with your view of the reliability of such technology. By the time you're in range of the AERIS you're almost there.

BUT...........none of the info I got altered ANY of our decisions. We amended and made plans based on what we could see or on traditional forecasts. I thinks it's called airmanship and also has something to do with compliance with regulations.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you trying to say visiting BOM or "non-airservices" sites is not good airmanship? Is a traditional Air Services forecast hours before departure superior to one obtained 3 or so hours later while airborne?

Is a 3G broadband AF or TAF non-compliant with regulations? If you were alerted to something scary on 3G would you ignore it in favour of a forecast 3-4 hours old?

Unless you ring the MET guys and transcribe it, all of your WX information will be delivered to you in some electronic format, so explain to me the difference between Broadband on a landline at home or office, and Broadband delivered via 3G.

Would this site fill in any dots if there was any doubt?

http://www.gpats.com.au/php/cust-cgi/LIAS_free_15m.php

Tin and all the others here have probably flown more hours that you ever will,

What makes you say this?

and do not warrant being attacked. Tech can be good, but commonsense and caution is better..

At the risk of repeating myself, Tinpis and his alter ego's have made no useful contribution to an interesting and relevant topic, and a technology that will find it's way into more GA cockpits as time goes by.

Read Tinpis's last absurd post (or any for that matter) and convince me andthe others viewing he's professional and/or experienced. He's only trying to "wind-up" the debate which is equally as stupid and doesn't belong here.

[Ovation]

Victim Air

Ovation, based on the evidence in post #19, I think you owe Angelflight a lazy 5G.

5K for that gibberish?

[Lasiorhinus]

Having to barge in on an area frequency to ask about the weather -- possibly the weather as it concerns VFR flight -- often seems an imposition on others who want to use the frequency. I do it, because I now have to, but I don't like doing it.


Never feel that you are 'imposing' on another pilot's use of Centre. ATC is there just as much for you as it is for any other pilot. Centre is not only for IFR flights, but VFR as well. If you're flying, and you want information from Center (or any other ATS unit, for that matter!), get on the radio and ASK for it! You're only 'imposing' if someone else has declared an emergency.

[Crosshair]

Fantastic!

I'm going to write a script for a movie in which a grizzled old vet, used to doing things "the old way," is paired up with a technology-obsessed rookie.

Hilarity ensues!

Do you think it's been done before?

Kiwi Chick, we'll need someone to be The Girl in this film. Perhaps you'd be interested?

Anyway, though he sounds a bit tightly wound, I agree with Ovation that more information is better. Even if it's not officially valid, it's something. It's like reading the news -- any one source has its bias and degree of inaccuracy, but by evaluating lots of sources, you can arrive at something like truth. Having Internet access (or XM, or some other data source) in the cockpit is a very good thing. It's especially good for low-time pilots like myself who don't have the experience to make inferences and judgements based only on what we see out the window (which may not be anything, after all).

As for using the area frequency for weather now that Flightwatch is gone, I agree with Lasiorhinus that it is a valid thing to do, and I do in fact do it. I don't do it as casually as I'd retrieve a weather chart off the BOM site, though.

[PilotHTR]

Crosshair,
I think you your last post demonstrates that you have produced a reasonable distillation of the various views being expressed.

Ovation,
You asked for an opinions and you got them. I in particular gave you my view based on first-hand experience. Makes you look very petty to then go sniping at all and sundry just because some are different to yours.
Yes, you were very lucky to beat the weather into Adelaide - you must have left Jandakot either very early, IFR (fair enough) or illegally VFR in IMC.
That 'worried' Chieftan pilot was indeed with us. Yes he was concerned - that's why he has five-figure hours and 40+ years as a professional pilot. He was concerned too because he was acting as pathfinder to a large group of pilots, all of whom were happy to put their faith in him. He is one of the most recognised and experienced figures in Australian aviation. I'll take his example any day over yours. What you might call quite reasonable concern I think. Be careful about personal attacks and trash-talking others. It always comes back to bite you on the arse.

Glad you did not stop in Forrest that night, sounds like you'd have spoiled all the fun.

[pw1340]

Tinpis:

well put, you crack me up :)


Pilot HTR:

solid advise, well done.:ok:

Ovation:

seems to me that if you spent less time with your head in your laptop, and more time looking outside you might be a lot better off, not just from a weather point of view but also remember that little catch phrase ' see and avoid'.

Crosshair:

while I agree it is wise to be armed with all the latest info just be aware that sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous. Eg, you might not like what you see in front of you and would normally turn back/land and wait, however this day there is extra pressure to make your destination on time. You check the weather radar on your phone and conclude that you can safely skirt around the storm cells so push on based on this info. However the radar image is wrong and you are heading for trouble.

Remember that the weather radar has its limits and accuracy can be degraded for a nunber of reasons including tall buildings (eg silos) near the radar site, heavy rain near the site can mask whats happening further out, many sites are shared with windfinding duties and are out of action for half an hour or more in the morning and arvo and some mobile(wap) radar pages dont have a time stamp to alert you of this. The BoM website has info on these limitations.

Often when we are faced witha tough choice we look to justify the path we want to take, not necessarily the path we should take and so put too much faith in unreliable info.

Just something to be aware of.


PW

[Ovation]

PilotHTR

I'm missing something here. The thread is about being informed and up-to-date and the best way to do it. We have Tinpis et al making nonsensical comments and so they get a spray for it. What's your problem?

Yes, you were very lucky to beat the weather into Adelaide - you must have left Jandakot either IFR (fair enough)

Fair enough indeed. I sat in my a/c at YPJT for an hour waiting for the WX to lift to personal minima. En-route the stormscope was painting behind us until well across the border. Used every bit of WX information I could find using 3G broadband before launching. Luck maybe, informed definitely (which is my point in this debate that others seem to miss). After the border the WX was CAVOK.

or illegally VFR in IMC

Sorry to spoil your negative thoughts - current CIRSE and PIFR. Log for that day says 5:55 for that flight with 2:20 IMC. Because of WX spent time at FL135 and FL155 (VFR because of limited COMMS).

That 'worried' chieftan pilot was indeed with us. Yes he was concerned - that's why he has five-figure hours and 40+ years as a professional pilot. He was concerned too because he was acting as leader to a large group of pilots, all of whom were happy to put their faith in him.

We were really worried listening to him because we could tell he was really stressed by the WX he was getting himself (and apparently others) into. I don't think I've ever heard anyone so stressed on frequency.

I recall passing a PIREP to FS for his benefit. If your bunch were VFR it would have been "interesting" to say the least.

We actually speculated we'd read more in the papers next day.

PS Sorry I missed you at Forrest (but then I don't suffer fools gladly)

[Crosshair]

pw1340, I agree with you that one sometimes sees what one wants to see in any set of information. The analogy to the papers is again apt. You have to be careful, I agree.

I had seen that information about "shared windfinding" on the BOM site, but did not know what it meant in practical terms. Now we all know, so thanks.

Even if we trust only the official data (which isn't perfect and always sounds a little doom-and-gloom anyway), it's better to be able to get a more current version of it than to trust what you printed off at the hotel six hours ago (by voice radio or some kind of datalink, of course).

[PilotHTR]

Ovation,
It does not look like you have many friends here. Not very good at reading the signs are you?
I will not be wasting any more energy with you - it's a forum, not a pissing contest. You are clearly a superior pilot to the rest of us. Not sure why you had to ask for advice from the rest of us to begin with, given that you know it all already.

Good luck

[Desert Duck]

I would hope that if you are intending to use 3G or NextG in the aircraft that you comply with the CASA requirements for their installation and/or use ?

[Crosshair]

What requirements are those?

[Desert Duck]

AAC 6-38 amd 2

[PinkusDickus]

Fascinating stuff...............

I must say it’s an interesting pissing competition with Ovation sticking to his guns in spite of the usual suspects and non-topic “provocatuers”. Maybe it should have been titled “Situational Awareness and In Flight Updates”.

PTW1340 Please share with the forum how you see and avoid in hard IFR. Might that be time to find what developed since you got your forecast 4 or 5 hours earlier. Ovation must have had a bad experience with forecasts vs actual and wants to be a better informed pilot any way possible. In CAVOK/VFR conditions you see and avoid as you should. Your input about the limitations the Radar on the BOM site is informative and useful, but the BOM must use this Radar derived info in their forecasts or why would they have them.

PilotHTR I cannot see where Ovation asked for your opinion or anyone else’s but he seems up to speed with this topic (3g) as indeed you appear to be. On the other hand tinpis (who you defend) must be living in the past if his gobbledygook is any guide.

[QSK?]

Ovation you said:Show me any part of tinpis's response that demonstrates experience and wisdom and I'll donate $5,000 to Angelflight.Tinpis said:Strewth...umm... anyone look out the window these days ?? In my view, Tinpis' response demonstrates experience and wisdom, so it looks like Angelflight is ready to receive your donation.

Tinpis:

With respect to Ovation's quote:You comment shows unawareness that aircraft can fly IFR in IMC ...etcC'mon mate please tell 'im, the suspense is killing me!