SO / FO choice

[fly123456]

Hello guys.

If you had the choice of starting as SO on COS99 and starting as FO (european base) on COS08, which one would be the best deal, comparing only salary (global package) and days off?

I know starting salary as FO is higher, but you won't get any housing allowance. (and what after onshoring?)

SO usually get a lot of days off, to spend with wife and kids, right?
What about DEFO? Heard you would require to fly both freighter and PAX, so what would be the roster like?

I wouldn't mind flying as SO, just want to get the best deal.

Thanks

[Numero Crunchero]

FO!

You will get frustrated sitting behind the action as a SO. Your salary is higher as a DEFO on UFO scales(CoS08) than it is as a SO in HKG on CoS99.

You can always bid across to pax fleet in 4 years.

Tax is a separate issue. If you plan a career at CX you will have plenty of time to buy a house. You will have more of a deposit earning FO salary for 4 years than you will in HKG as a SO. Cost of living is very high here!

Just my opinion though!

[bobrun]

correct me if my numbers are wrong:
DEFO UFO salary (Canada): 86 000$ before tax, aprox. 63900$ after tax. or 5330$ /month after tax. In HKD, that's 44 440$HKD. An SO salary will starts at about 33 000$/month up to about 44 000$/month. However, when including the housing allowance, education allowance, 13th month bonus (you don't get any of those on a base) I believe a SO is actually receiving a similar salary than a UFO DEFO.
The salary scales vary with the bases, Canada being at the low end of them all and receiving the lowest payrise of all as well.
CX isn't a good paying job anymore for those joining these days, and with the retirement age now at 65 bringing long delays in command upgrades (easily 5 years; expect a command in 15 years or more) more and more prefer to find work with a company based at home. A lot has changed for the worst while others are improving their pilot conditions...

[Numero Crunchero]

Bobrun,
I haven't checked but I will trust your figures;-)

Another important consideration. If you join as a DEFO you have a basing and you have the CHOICE to move to HKG in 4 years. If you join as a SO, you will upgrade on the aircraft they tell you that you are upgrading on and then you can 'bid' for a base. As my other posts outline, I think basings will become very hard to get.

So join as a DEFO and you can still choose where you want to live - join as an SO and you are pretty much committed to HKG.

The education allowance will cover up to 2/3rds(after tax) of your school fees so that means you will be out of pocket $20-30K per year.

The housing allowance isn't the financial panacea that people make out. Lets say it is $50K - you pay tax of around $8K, management and government fees(you don't pay if you rent) of another $5K which gives you about $37K per month to go off a mortgage. If you buy a 1,000 sq ft place for say $5-7million, your interest component will be $20-30K per month if you borrowed 100%(usually only able to borrow 70-90%). That means that you are paying off your place at the rate of $7-17K per month. That equates to about GBP5-12K per year or $12-28K AUD per year. So you are relying on the property going up.

So on the balance of all that I still have no problem recommending FO over SO!

[fly123456]

hey thanks.

Just another question. If i were to join on the S/O scale today and be willing to move on a base as F/O after, let's say, 5 years (thus on Cos08), where would I be on the salary scale?
Year 2-3 UFO?
Then it would be clearly more advantageous to start as a F/O, of course.

[superfrozo]

You will get frustrated sitting behind the action as a SO.
...
Whilst I would never dispute NC's thoroughly comprehensive financial analyses of FO versus SO, the whole "not part of the action" argument raised here always struck me as fairly academic.

Personally, as (most) airlines work on the "deli counter" principal of seniority then I would opt for taking whatever got me in the company soonest - assuming that all things being equal it was a company you could see yourself working in for 20+ years!!

If, however, your ego requires that you be in a position to "fly" the aircraft, albeit for what amounts to around 10 minutes in a typical 12 hour long haul flight, then by all means go for FO. (I'm sorry if I offend anyone but, turning a heading bug/speed select or alt select knob does NOT equate to "flying" in my mind. I would also go so far as to say those pilots who "fly" to 15,000+ ft by following FD bars are also deluding themselves as to the amount of "action" they are getting ahead of an SO!!!:E)

I would weight lifestyle considerations in either role far more heavily than "flying" the aircraft - It's a safe bet that your average CX SO has a hell of a lot more time off than the FOs. This variable cannot be undervalued when you're a mother/father of a young family. The average SO would get around 3 years of 18 days off a month - not a bad deal when you consider that he/she will still have 20+ years to look forward to a "window" seat.
I guess my point is this: if you're turned on by the thought of getting to fiddle with knobs (& I don't mean talking to management) and get the ubiquitous Breitling sooner rather than later, go for FO.

If you'd rather have a "hobby" for 3 years that allows you live (just), but offers the advantadge of giving you all the time in the world to neglect the kids and/or go on the prowl for Russian hookers and eight balls of crack, then for sh!ts sake... take the SO option!! :ok:

[Gone Down]

Super - well said, there is a lot to be said for the SO job, after regional/GA flying it's a nice relaxing job for a few years... as long as it's not too long to upgrade if you know what I mean.

[Numero Crunchero]

To answer your question...if you are employed by 31/12/07 then if you can get a pax basing as a FO, it will be on B scales or UFO scales, your choice! If you choose UFO scale then you cannot revert back to B scale until your command.

[boxjockey]

The SO gig is the best job I have ever had, hands down. Is it sometimes frustrating to not fly. YES!!! Is it fantastic to realistically work 9 days per month. YES!!! I'm not disputing NC's numbers, but the housing allowance can be a very good incentive, even without property appreciation. I'm in the process of purchasing a $5M property, with 5% down out of my pocket. For the next 10 months, I will only be able to pay $27K/mnth. After that my housing will pay $54K/mnth. At current interest rates my flat will be paid for in just over 8 years. If I get no appreciation, then in less than 10 years I have an asset worth $630K US. That is a gain of approx $70k US per year. If I have to pay out $12K/yr in taxes, I'm still up $58K/yr more than I would have been. Add to that 13th month, and I think the SO gig is cake. If I get canned by CX, then I'll just leave the keys on their desk!!! Just another perspective from a very happy and lazy SO!! :p

box

[Mach75]

"If I get canned by CX, then I'll just leave the keys on their desk!!!"

Minus your $38,000 (5%) US Dollar Down-Payment . And if the real estate market drops by 10% you will be sitting in negative equity and owe the bank $75,000 US Dollars on top of your down-payment.

Not trying to be a pompas ass - I do think it is an excellent option and there is some significant potential. I do also think that new joiners need to be aware that the housing allowance is not all gravy - there are some risks envolved.

[Drunknsailor]

The not getting to fly part is not the frustrating part of the SO job. The frustrating part is that you may feel like an uninvited gueast at a party from time to time. If you have the choice between the 2, then I assume you are quite experienced. That can be a bit demoralizing as an SO from time to time because SOME senior officers in this airline will give you zero credit for anything. True story:

I was sitting in the jumpseat on taxi out and an alert(not using the words EICAS or ECAM to not indicate fleet) message popped up. The FO in the right seat grabbed his QRH and passed it in front of me to the relief FO sitting on the other jump seat.

I have had 2 or 3 incidents similiar to that one in the time I have been here. If you can let them roll off of you it is not a problem and you will be ok chugging through the SO phase as a means to an end. If these types of things are especially hurtful to you then you will be a very frustrated SO.

Other than that, the paid vacation, I mean the job, iis very good.

The housing can be very lucrative if you are responsible about it. Make sure you talk to various people when you get here about how to make the game work best!

Good luck

[Numero Crunchero]

I think you are glossing over some numbers there - rose coloured glasses?

Lets use your example. Assume int rates are about 5%.

$5million will buy you a 800-1200 sq ft place in DB. About 500-800 in mid levels. If you keep it for 9 years it will be paid off.

At the 9 year mark you will have paid $1.47M in taxes and management fees. Your initial deposit would have grown to $388K if left in a term deposit at 5% so this is an opportunity cost.

So the place owes you $1.8M so you will have actually made the difference between that and the eventual sale price. Many apartments are worth less than they were 10 years ago so to be safe lets just assume it is worth $5M - anything extra is a bonus. In that case you have made $3.2M ($400K US over 9 years or $44K US/year - still very good!). To do this you will have to live in the same 500-1200 sq ft place for 9 years....not planning a family are you?

Now, plans change. Lets look at the situation in 3 years.

Opportunity cost on your deposit is $289K. Tax/mgmnt fees total $491K. Loan outstanding is about $3.409M. Allowing for buying/selling costs the sale price needs to be around $4.5M to break even.

So there is a short term risk to buying...you should be pretty sure you are not going to want to move, base or quit in the short term. Our peers are espousing property success stories at the moment....just the opposite to the late 80s and the late 90s when pilots were cleaned out. An apartment in DB(the greens) sold for over $5M in 1997 - it was worth just under $2M in 2001 - not sure what it is worth today but suspect it is still well below $5M.

Buying a property with company money is definitely a way to make up for earnings/PF shortfall but it is something that should be well thought out. Do you want to be trapped with the possibility of having negative equity in the short term? And good luck with dropping off the keys and walking away. I am sure HSBC and other banks will not pursue you internationally for money owing!!!!!!

[SAD]

NC

Planning a family? Why not go to and see your friends family in particular their wife? Sorry forgot his other best friend was already there before you.

[boxjockey]

NC,

As I said before, I would never dispute your numbers. I am willing to take the risk, as I don't have any plans to leave here in the near term. The flat I'm getting ready to purchase is 1600', so it should be quite enough room for the family-to-be :). I still think that even with the risk involved, it is a good decision to buy. To each his own, I suppose. What is it the management always says: "Here's to my HOUSING Bonus!!"

box

[Numero Crunchero]

boxjockey,
like you I am a participant in the great hkg property gamble. Given price rises over the last 4 years I am now only mildly optimistic over the short term future of the housing market. I have seen it rise a long way and then fall even further in the 90s...so as they say, Caveat Emptor. If you are planning a fair few years then there is little financial risk for you.

[Bring Back The Biff]

Fly123456 - apart from the financial aspects, the SO factor can be a bigger issue than just not taking off or landing.

You will end up doing sims about every 1.5 months - and will often be treated like a cadet during these sims. Also bear in mind that your assessments will count for the rest of your CX career.

When you do eventually get within sight of upgrade to Junior First Officer - you will have to successfully complete the dreaded (and might I add completely pointless) 'Tech Interview' for which guys are doing outrageous amounts of work for (and still failing).

Superfrozo's missive on how little extra you would do in a window seat is bollocks - having gone from the SO to FO, it's a damn sight more interesting - and has nothing to do with ego.

You do get days off - but the Captains and FO's particularly on the 400 get more, and actually get to do something when they go to work.

Just a little more perspective for you!

Good luck.

[fly123456]

Thank you guys, for the very interesting opinions!

But then still another question: when (if) you go back to hong-kong after the 4 mandatory years, do you (or can you) change aircraft type, or do you stay on the -400?

Thanks

[EXEZY]

Bring back the biff, well said that man. In response to Superfrozo, wanting to actually fly the aircraft has sod all to do with ego, it's only natural that as a pilot, shock horror.... you might actually feel like having a go. Lord give me strength! I would imagine the S/O gig would be a great leap for guys off a beech 1900 etc but damn right frustrating for people with prior expeirence on a big jet. From what I hear in some cases the guys are not given the credit for previous expeirence gained in reputable carriers, there is a lot of people out there who are very dissmissive.

[superfrozo]

BBTF & Exezy,

I think you may have misconstrued the point I was trying to make. (Unfortunately, my communications skills as best described as agricultural). "Bollox" to you they maybe, but given Fly123456's request for opinions on the matter, I feel I am entitled to give mine (as are you of course!).

I do not wish to enter the proverbial p!ssing contest of FO vs SO, but please allow me to elaborate for the benefit of the thread's originator and to dispel the apparent misconstrued belief you may have about my opinion of FOs!

My comment on ego was more in reference to the perception those people transitioning to the "big" airline world (such as Fly123456) appear to have re: the SO life being one of complete lack of job satisfaction. Nothing could be further from the truth in my eyes, and at least a few others on this thread appear to share my opinion! (deluded sods I hear you say:bored:). It also does not mean that anyone who joined as an FO is egotistical!!!

Yes, the SO doesn't "fly", the money is (relatively) sh!te, the responsibility negligible and respect from fellow aviators is often, ahem, limited... But if money is not your god (wow, did I just say that living in HK?!?), your ego doesn't mind taking a backseat for a few years and if insults from "skygods who invented aviation" are like acid off a duck's back, THEN S.O. IS THE GIG FOR YOU!!:ok:

Ultimately, if you joined 1 day before a DEFO then (technically) you will still be eligible for command before him. In a 20+ year career, a few years warming up on the bench and enjoying life to the full won't matter a hell of a lot.

Of course, I caveat all of the above with the "it's a personal lifestyle choice" thing. Fly123456, If you wanna a window seat ASAP then get onboard as an FO.

Peace, out!:)

P.S. Whilst I am enjoying the job, I will also admit that it doesn't rock my world. The thing is, not much in the airline business would rock my world (except for a 2v1 with a couple of Russian hookers whilst sniffing a line of Columbian nose candy off their 32DD bre@sts in the hotel room on a layover somewhere.) Quite frankly, I've coughed up stuff more interesting than airline flying, but hey - whatever floats your boat!;)

[boxjockey]

I think being an SO is all about the attitude. Just like Superfrozo said, it has to be like acid off a duck's back. If you can suck it up and bite your tongue for just six hours every three months or so, then you will be just fine. We do have some skygods left, but they definitely aren't the norm. The vast majority of guys I fly with are very sociable and they at least pretend to value your input. I was a jet captain before coming here. I have been flying for the last 10 years, and have done many a interesting aviation job. I LOVE THE SO GIG!!! It is like a three year paid vacation, minus the sims, which now seem to come every three months. Training must be busy!! :}

box

[Ballistic Amah]

Some interesting, and many valid points of view re the $$$ comparing DEFO vs SO. What appears to go overlooked a lot however is the cost of living. If you planned to be based in NY and live in Manhattan, then the $ for $ comparison of packages is valid. However if your home of choice is somewhere much cheaper then it makes the comparison a little more complicated. I know I state the obvious in saying this, but you got to work out what is really going into your pocket at the end of the month.

Agreed the housing allowance is great and many people have done well. But as some have said before, it's not all that. I echo previous posts, beware of the risks.

As for the SO vs FO from a operational point of view, very unrewarding in the back seat.

Finally don't prostitute yourself. If the life you want is on a base then the answer is simple. Why would you come to HK for a little more money? If you would would like a change of scene and maybe bounce around the region on your 12+ days off a month then c'mon over. You might find it a bit tough finding a suitably sized place for a wife and kids with the initial housing. Just a heads up. Also 32k/mth or whatever it is as an SO in HK may be a bit short to support a family in my opinion. It is doable however. Especially so if your wife works.

BA

[NewEssO]

this post has a lot of information. thanks guys.

not that i have a choice to go FO, but might as well ask NC: from what you see now, how long are we looking at SO upgrades to JFO/FO? Traditionally it's been 3.5 years. Seems like CX is pushing for more cadets next year (cheap labour maybe), any guesstimates on how long the SO "lifestyle" will be for someone joining early next year? I dont anticipate any changes to the 9 mths - 1 year of JFO time, please correct me if i'm wrong

cheers

[Numero Crunchero]

This is real crystal ball stuff, but here goes.

3man ULR
DEFO
RA65
Bypass pay

3man ULR increase to 14 hours will mean we can do our EUR flights with reduced crew. We will still need to use 4 crew on all US flights. We have over 1000 FOs - so if we suddenly didn't need to use 4 pilots that means we have a 'surplus' of 200-400FOs - sorry about the guesstimate but I haven't bothered to break it down into fleets. Bottom line, 3man will have a huge impact!

DEFOs joining after you are junior to you, but take up a senior position to you. There is not that great 'sausage machine' effect driving your forward to upgrade. Given the parsimonius pay structure here the only way CX will have to attract people is offer them based DEFO positions so they will be recruiting DEFOs for a while to come!

RA65 will affect all of us. There are around 60 retirements due per year for the next 5-10 years. So over the current 3.5years as an SO that means there would be 210 less CNs and FO positions required.

Bypass pay for SOs is NOT paid until you are assessed. All those DEFOs joining would therefore not lead you to getting bypass pay until you are 2-4months from upgrade. And of course, joining next year you are not entitled to bypass pay for the 200 odd CNs that would have extended over the next 3.5 years.

To put all these numbers into perspective there are around 329 SOs and 1050 FOs and 780CNs. So on the numbers your career progression looks terrible. CX don't like to have institutionalized SOs so they would tell you that you will be upgraded in 3 years. A non-CX mate of mine was told he would get his command in 9 years - for that to be true we will need to have 350a/c at the end of 2015.

clear as mud?

[mod1]

Just out of curiosity, when does an SO get assessed? What is the typical length of time it takes from day 1 to actually get assessed?

[baseddude]

NewEsso: Check your PM.
baseddude