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apache
5th Nov 2007, 23:48
IF I were a REX pilot, I would be outraged at the slur cast upon you all by the media, which is being fed this bullsh!t from management. I was almost sick last night listening to channel ten commentators all but blame pilots for throwing regional australia into disarray (see, I can do it too!).
To say that services are being cancelled because pilots are calling in sick, and that other airlines are "poaching" your staff is despicable. The AFAP should be in there DEMANDING that management apologise to the pilots for the light they have cast them in, and to start standing up and taking account for their own actions in letting staff numbers dwindle to what they are.

AFAP.... grow some kahunas and stand up for someone OTHER than management for once!!!

ScottyDoo
5th Nov 2007, 23:53
They used to have a pair - a few years back. But old man Hawke cut 'em off... :eek:

lemel
6th Nov 2007, 00:08
The TWU seems really good. They appear to be doing well for the Nat jet pilots.:D

I say scr*w afap and go to twu.

In addition to the work they are doing with nat jet, they also picked every hole there is in the skippers new awa and went out and said that they would be happy to negotiate on behalf of the pilots if they became members.

Actions speak louder then words. TWU is acting, where as afap isnt... when you think about it, they are even speaking up!!!!:ugh:

Lets face it, afap is no more.

Move on boys and girls

LemeL:cool:

Bendo
6th Nov 2007, 05:46
Well Lawrie Cox... I reckon Apache has an excellent point. You take 2 weeks wages from me each year and all I get is a $3.95 diary and an aero club membership card so I can be a w*nker at restaurants.

... got anything to say? :ugh:

nig&nog
6th Nov 2007, 07:16
For a dollar a day the TWU is good value especially when they use the same lawyers as AFAP, Slater and Gordon. And if they are not familiar with what you have going they actually ask for help from professionals in that area.
Instead of being occupied with the history of pilots in their ranks the AFAP should be out there batting for all pilots to make us comparable to our overseas counterparts so we dont have to leave to be respected.
nog not nig

Jet_A_Knight
6th Nov 2007, 08:00
In NSW the TWU won't take pilots.

That's what they told me.

Twice.

Under Dog
6th Nov 2007, 08:17
If it wasn't for the loss of licence insurance they would be history.

Regards The Dog

radaz
6th Nov 2007, 08:32
Apache::::

Wake up dude.
Your question is right on.

All this negative blame towards the REX management/owners should be addressed to the direct cause.

The AFAP.

What sort of union would allow its members to be payed 34% below the national average.

Thats one farked union......

Something to do with the support that they continue to get from those that choose to be losers, till death, the '89ers.

Something to do with 'not learning from history.'

Sadly REX took the easy option and negotiated with the cheapest option, the AFAP.
Can't blame REX owners.
A union that just wanted recognition.
But they are nothing...

But sorry, they farked you, me and REX (and REX owners).....yet again....

I feel sorry for those getting a base wage of $41.5k at REX.
Maybe REX F/O's find it difficult telling others (outside aviation) when they are asked what their pay is, due to embarrassment.
All things considered.

Have a look at the direct pilot wages 20 to 15 years ago.

I have dealt with Laurie Cox in the past. Many times.
And Bendo trust me he could not give a fark about pilots...


With the AFAP you only get what you sow .. so to all, just continue to pay your subs.
It is (subs) to some very angry and resentful human beings and nothing for a growing industry.

Am I right......cause I'm not wrong....he he:ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch:

Spaz Modic
6th Nov 2007, 08:41
:E All you jokers should get into the TWU. After all, you're only glorified truck drivers, and when Rudd siezes power, old Mumbles is going to make sure that's how you continue to be treated. You're the lowest of the low in Airline ops. Just ask the bag snatcher. Or the sweet young FA down the back. You'll learn one day.:}

SOPS
6th Nov 2007, 09:18
What did a SAAB F/O get paid 15 years ago?? I bet it was close to 41,000 dollars, no wonder people are pissed off:ugh:

Mr. Hat
6th Nov 2007, 10:08
probably 42000

boocs
6th Nov 2007, 13:53
Where is The Who????

maui
7th Nov 2007, 01:23
Bendo

Two weeks wages per year equates to about 4% GOTAB.

Your maths is about as accurate as your criticism

Maui

Sexual Chocolate
7th Nov 2007, 02:13
Troubled airline to brief media on schedule failures.

AMID speculation Regional Express is failing to meet schedules and unable to retain pilots, the embattled airline will hold a press conference in Sydney this
morning. Rex has shutdown its West Wyalong service, cut four flights a day between Wagga and Sydney, abandoned the Cooma to Sydney route and cancelled a regional Queensland route just one month after the service was launched.

The company is citing pilot and staff shortages as the reasons behind all the cancellations. Adding to the company's woes was Sunday night's unscheduled landing in Wagga of an Albury flight that was destined for
Sydney. About half an hour into the flight, the Saab was forced to land with engine problems and 34 passengers were forced to catch a bus the rest of the way to Sydney.

On Friday, a regional flight from Sydney to Mudgee was cancelled, and after a two-hour delay, passengers were diverted onto a Dubbo flight, where a
plane would take them the rest of the way to Mudgee.
Rex is expected to discuss pilot shortages, flight suspensions, a pilot cadet scheme and a new pilot training academy at today's press conference.

permFO
7th Nov 2007, 02:44
15 years ago a SAAB F/O was on about 32K.

SOPS
7th Nov 2007, 03:02
so allowing for inflation a Saab F/O has had a large pay cut..am I correct?

Mr. Hat
7th Nov 2007, 03:51
Have a squizz at what a house costs today vs 15 years ago. And the SAAB FO has had an increase of 10k in 15 years.

Seriously its a joke. It's time for a adjustment across the board.

dodgybrothers
7th Nov 2007, 04:06
Damn pilots. If they're not taking sickies or being 'poached' by other airlines they're shutting engines down on us. How they hell are we ever going to make money if they keep shutting down engines on us!

Reminds me of the life of Brian, 'apart from building roads, sewer systems, piping fresh water organising law and order what have the romans ever done for us?'

Damn Pilots.

excellr8
7th Nov 2007, 07:07
So in todays terms the wage should be around 60K assuming 3% inflation which we all know is a joke...but that's another argument. AFAP WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh:
Get into the fight or get out of the way.

SOPS
7th Nov 2007, 07:30
Call your AFAP president. Ask him what he is doing about all of this. Ask if he has arranged a press conference to talk about "poaching", the pilot shortage and pilot wages. See what answer you get.

mention1
7th Nov 2007, 08:41
Yesterday a certain captain was rostered to be on duty for 6 hours after an overnight with no access to food until he put his foot down and delayed a flight and personally bought some food for his crew out of his own pocket. The capitol city agent screamed!!!
How can this happen after over 4 years of operations. Have you seen some of the outposts we go to? A shed full of dead flys and maybe, just maybe, a Coke machine in the corner. No wonder they're going sick!
To say that services are being cancelled because pilots are calling in sick, and that other airlines are "poaching" your staff is despicable
I didn't see the media reports but if this is true its disgusting.
Would you put your family on an aircraft that you knew had pilots and flight attendants who were tired and hungry?? Its a form of torture really. :*

chief wiggum
7th Nov 2007, 10:55
Ummm, it may be a silly thought - but shouldn't the CHIEF PILOT be sticking up for his pilots?
ISn't he the "go between" between management(sic) and the pilot group? Shouldn't HE be trying to calm the waters, and maybe even try to find out WHY people are leaving ?

I agree though - the AFAP should be standing up for its MEMBERS!!! else it may not have anyone to stand up for (and pay them!).

How many REX pilots ARE members of the AFAP? Surely if 50 of them are paying 1% each week, then that SHOULD entitle them to about 20hrs of representation each week(ie 50*1% = 50% of ONE persons wage = 20 hrs)[I know that there are more factors involved than just paying a wage....] but even 10 hours per week to say... "LETS LOOK AT REX and see HOW we can help them."
rather than "lets see which exotic locations are holding seminars that we can attend then write about how good we are doing for everyone EXCEPT the people we represent!"

Jet_A_Knight
7th Nov 2007, 11:33
Try getting anything more than cursory attention to your AWA.

in my case, they were happy to let me get sucker punched in a few ridiculous clausesthey thought were of no significance - after having a copy for 10 days.

That did it for me.

Chimbu chuckles
7th Nov 2007, 12:46
I think you guys do not understand what the AFAP actually is...it isn't a union it's a Federation.

If YOU are not prepared to be proactive AFAP is nobbled...the AFAP is only as good and powerfull as it's members.

When pilots in this place whinge about how useless the AFAP was in this or that negotiation remember that the 'AFAP', as an entity, was not actually involved in those negotiations...the relevant pilot's group was the entity assisted by the resources of the AFAP. As an example the recent EA EBA was negotiated by the Eastern Airlines pilots group which is made up of a bunch of Eastern's pilots, voted onto that group by the rank and file who happen to be the companies AFAP reps....not by some faceless industrial negotiators from 'the AFAP'.

They negotiate the best deal they believe they can come up with and put that to the membership who vote for it...yes or no.

'Negotiation' is not "we want a 30% payrise and more time off and better meals period". It covers a raft of issues and the reps and company sit over a table off and on for mths and thrash out what they agree on and what the DO NOT agree on....ALL of those things are then included in the proposition put to the pilots...just because an issue is included DOES NOT MEAN the pilots group think it's good, it just means the company did.

That 'deal' is then put to the pilots group...if the majority vote yes it passes and it's NO USE coming on here and whinging you have been ripped off by the AFAP. APATHY is why you get the deal you get...98% of you are NOT prepared to stick your heads above the parapet and actually DO ANYTHING to get the outcome you desire...you leave it to the 2% who stand for election as the AFAP reps.

If you think it is actually possible, in this day and age, to achieve what the AFAP could in it's heyday in the 60 and 70s you're grossly misstaken...in those days Reg Ansett owned half the domestic airline business in Australia and the Govt, via TAA, owned the other half. The two airline policy meant they were exactly matched in airframes numbers/types, airfares and schedules. All it took was the mere threat of a strike and Reg Ansett caved in to the demands...they flowed automatically to the TAA boys...the airfares were raised in unison and life went on as before....there was NO COMPETITION.

These days everyone is competing in completely deregulated open skies...and 75% of the domestic airlines are owned or controlled by QF. In other words without ALL QF group pilots being in the same pilots group you're screwed. AIPA extended that possibility to EA/Sunnies 15+ years ago but the regional guys demands were so stupid as to make the deal impossible.

That is the current reality.

Chimbu chuckles
7th Nov 2007, 13:02
Wiggum as someone who has been a Chief Pilot I can assure you the CP is not the pilots representative to management.

A CP is CASA's representative within the company. Some CPs try to be both...I did and I can assure you there is no quicker way to run foul of your 'fellow management' than to be a CP who sticks up for the pilots...sad but true...CPs like that are sacked with monotonous regularity...and CASA does nothing.

The pilots representative is the AFAP/TWU/etc rep. He/she is the person who goes to the relevant company person (CP, OH+S etc) and voices the concerns of the pilot group over issues such as mentioned on this page.

MOST pilots NEVER stick their heads up by actually going to the rep in a timely manner and outlining the situation and MOST pilots are not prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and back up the pilot who does or the representative they elected to represent them. What they do usually is cop it on the chin and assume someone else will stick their head up...as the captain in question seems to have done.

Unless you as a UNITED group send the message via your rep to the CP that you WILL NOT FLY that duty unless x,y and z happens (and x,y and z have to be reasonable expectations) and back each other up then you have no right to whinge....never happens though because too many line pilots put career progression ahead of group solidarity...much better to get a quicker command by keeping a low profile and prodding others in the back to go forward and do the dirty work...particularly if they are more senior and sitting in 'your seat'.:ugh:

chief wiggum
7th Nov 2007, 19:33
The pilots representative is the AFAP/TWU/etc rep. He/she is the person who goes to the relevant company person (CP, OH+S etc) and voices the concerns of the pilot group over issues such as mentioned on this page.


OK... so where IS the AFAP in this ? do you not agree that what the management of REX has said is derogotory to the integrity of REX pilots?

I draw your attention to RULE 1 - General, paragraph 3(a) of the AFAP RULES :
The principal objects for which the Federation is established are:
a) to protect and further the interests of the profession of Air Pilots (hereinafter called the profession), and to safeguard and improve the interests and rights of Members of the Federation.

they ain't doing a lot of protecting!

Icarus2001
8th Nov 2007, 00:18
These days everyone is competing in completely deregulated open skies...

Except in Western Australia where the government, through the DPI, control non-jet routes in a legally dubious tendering arrangement. This creates a cosy duopoly between Skywest and Skippers and keeps fares higher than they should be.

http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/aviation/565.asp

bushy
8th Nov 2007, 01:11
And in the N.T. there is a list of "preferred operators" I wonder what the ACCC thinks of that.

neville_nobody
8th Nov 2007, 05:08
I think you guys do not understand what the AFAP actually is...it isn't a union it's a Federation.

Interesting that Wikipedia lists it as a Union.

Spaz Modic
8th Nov 2007, 08:21
:) Without getting into semantics of Union Vs Federation, Chimbu the Chuckler is right.
The perennial problem with pilots is that they think once sitting in the seat, as in an airline, that's all they need to do.
Well, it ain't - not if you want to make your much worked for career lucrative enough to continue it into the future.
If all you jocks want to get ahead and stop the rot of management sending you all to the poorhouse, ya gotta get involved, and you do it through the Feds. Don't ring up Laurie what's 'is name and expect him to do you bidding unless you are prepared to do your bit.
Otherwise, join the TWU - and in the long term, just see how far they get you. :ok:

funnelweb
8th Nov 2007, 11:09
The AFAP was conspicuous by their absence at the SAFESKIES 2007 conference in CB last week, whilst the Gods from AIPA were very well represented and organised, talking to anyone who was willing to listen, about their vision for the future. No sign of anybody from Sth Melbourne:O

Spaz Modic
9th Nov 2007, 04:30
:ugh: Fweb - my point exactly! :cool:

Bazzamundi
9th Nov 2007, 08:37
Out of interest does anyone know how much AFAP member money is being spent on court action trying to prevent AIPA from being legally able to represent QF Link and other QF group pilots?

Whether you like AIPA or not, if money is being spent fighting other unions then that to me would be a waste.

funnelweb
10th Nov 2007, 04:42
350K is the number I heard.:sad:

Roost
10th Nov 2007, 05:44
Why aren't the AFAP putting things in perspective for the public... We had a fuel surcharge, how about a pilot surcharge.

Why aren't the afap rebutting every comment made that the regionals can't pay more...

REX 1.4 million plus pax per year... Up the ticket price $8.... approx $40000 pay rise per pilot... User pays, you want the service you pay....even go to the government for the pay subsidy....not training subsity that just funds build a Rex flying school to charge pilots more money.

I left the AFAP...I joined the TWU and it got M^{^(R to the table in double time. We didn't get the best deal but we got a deal. The are an action union....

Aussie pilots need to take a take some advice from Chopper.

aircraft
11th Nov 2007, 12:43
I must be missing something. Perhaps somebody could enlighten me.

I didn't see the televised news reports or press conference snippets, but I don't see how the "calling in sick" statement is in any way a slur on any pilot. Given how short REX are on pilots, of course a pilot "calling in sick" is likely to result in flight cancellations.

So, this was a perfectly true, reasonable and unbiased statement, given the context of "pilot shortages resulting in flight cancellations".

I would suggest it is difficult for the AFAP to defend anybody against a true statement.

Making it even more difficult is the fact that the exodus of pilots from REX is the result of pilots just doing what they traditionally always have done - that is, abandoning their current employer as soon as a better offer comes along.

As for the "poaching" word: REX have chosen to make the pilot shortage issue political, and in politics, it is the perceptions that are important - the reality often has to take a back seat.

Being political, REX were quite justified in using that word. In fact, they were just as entitled to use the word "stolen". Which words are used or what "reality" is presented is irrelevent - what matters is whether the right perception is created.

If they were successful, REX will have created, in the mind of the public, the perception that the major airlines (and the government) are to blame for the route closures and flight cancellations - not the pilots.

So, I believe the REX management have actually done the pilots a favour by pointing the finger of blame elsewhere. They could have made a big deal of the traditional "loyalty" that pilots tend to show their employers but didn't.

tryhard
11th Nov 2007, 16:15
Unions are nothing but a sick joke........we can look at a recent case where 49 pilots were given their marching orders......followed by the largest capitulation to the company in living memory.

lets look at the HKAOA.............the only pilot representative group that I know of that has successfully "negotiated" a demise in living standards, pay,conditions, flight time limitations and retirement age. Well done chaps!!

Absolute waste of time............:ugh:

aircraft
11th Nov 2007, 22:16
the HKAOA.............the only pilot representative group that I know of that has successfully "negotiated" a demise in living standards, pay,conditions, flight time limitations and retirement age.
Sounds like a pragmatic union to me. Expect to see more of that.

carbon
12th Nov 2007, 04:31
As for the "poaching" word: REX have chosen to make the pilot shortage issue political, and in politics, it is the perceptions that are important - the reality often has to take a back seat.

Being political, REX were quite justified in using that word. In fact, they were just as entitled to use the word "stolen". Which words are used or what "reality" is presented is irrelevent - what matters is whether the right perception is created.

You honestly can't believe your own tripe aircraft?, god help you if you do.:yuk:

Definition of STOLEN:-"to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force".

I have never seen a stolen piece of "property" apply to the "thief" to be stolen. :ugh:

Don't attempt to blend politics with reality, you said it yourself, they are completely independent.

You on the other hand represent perfect case of perceptions and reality aligned, you are exactly what people perceive you to be.

aircraft
12th Nov 2007, 13:51
carbon said:
I have never seen a stolen piece of "property" apply to the "thief" to be stolen.
This statement demonstrates that you did not understand the point I was making.

In politics, accurate and faithful explanations are not the objective. Creating the desired perception is, so it doesn't matter which words are used or whether the description contains any truth.

REX wanted to give the public somebody to blame (other than themselves or the pilots). They chose the major airlines and the government. If they were successful in creating this perception then their choice of words was justified.

chief wiggum
12th Nov 2007, 18:13
Aircraft. You ever noticed that you seem to have to explain yourself, and the points you (think) you are making one hell of a lot?

I have never seen so many statements like :
This statement demonstrates that you did not understand the point I was making

.... and not just on this thread!

carbon
12th Nov 2007, 20:31
I understood it perfectly, read the next line you intellectual giant.:yuk:

I understood your statement, though that doesn't mean I agree with it!

bushy
13th Nov 2007, 01:20
Aircraft, it appears that you consider lieing to the public is OK.
How then, can we take any of your posts seriously. You may be lieing.

aircraft
13th Nov 2007, 12:42
bushy,

In politics, it is perfectly acceptable to lie to the public - at least this is the view from the side that is doing the lying. From the public's side, it is nothing like acceptable to be lied to.

I'm sure you've heard the expression "all's fair in love and war". You could make that "all's fair in love, war and politics" as, for each of these, the end justifies the means - how you get there doesn't matter, as long as you get there.

Enema Bandit's Dad
14th Nov 2007, 02:50
aircraft, you're such an intellectual little twerp, you make me want to :yuk::yuk::yuk:

flylittlebirdie
14th Nov 2007, 07:39
the afap like any union or federation is only a reflection of the people it represents. if you truly believe the afap are weak and without balls well then have a look at yourself. i would be very interested to see how many of the people squealing the loudest have ever payed a penny to the afap, some don't even appear to know how much it costs. and then there are those that join after they have been shafted and probably quit soon after they get their payout. the last company i was at there were 4 afap members out of around 26 pilots and you wonder why things never get better.

Pinky the pilot
14th Nov 2007, 08:45
The South Australian State Branch of AFAP had a meeting at 6pm last night. (Tuesday 13th November.) To the best of my knowlege, all SA AFAP members were notified well in advance of the meeting, although I know of one member who apparently was not.

Four Pilots showed up, and there were three apologies.:ugh

I refer all Ppruners to post number 25 by Chimbu Chuckles.:ok:

flylittlebirdie's post above is also relevent.

aircraft
14th Nov 2007, 13:04
I was hoping somebody would clarify for me just how it was that the statement from REX about pilots "calling in sick" was some kind of slur on the pilots (requiring defending by the AFAP).

Please can somebody enlighten me. I just can't see it.

Kelly Slater
14th Nov 2007, 13:56
Taking a sickie is the great Australian past time. "Calling in sick" to many people implies a sickie. Whether or not this was intentional is an unknown but it was, at the very least, careless. The use of the phrase "taken sick" would have avoided the implication.