Project Lauren

[Romeo 87]

I've been searching the pages at Pprune to no avail. Have I missed it? Anyone got any poop on BA's Project Lauren?

[The Listener]

Not much but something :rolleyes:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/11/05/219112/ba-pilots-voice-concern-about-carriers-mainland-european.html

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

have you actually tried the search function on this forum?

It comes up with 2 pages of results!

Anyway, you are probably too late as the website is closed and selections are underway...

To be continued second half of the month!


I amj ust worried about, as some other guy posted here, "the angry Nigels throwing their cheese boards at us " matter...

Their seems to be problem still with BALPA regarding who has to be recruited, BA guys of pilots from outside...

[Helmut F.]

Anyone an idea what to expect at the interview mid november?

[shortfinals]

Flight International has posted this on its website today at http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/11/05/219112/ba-pilots-voice-concern-about-carriers-mainland-european.html.

The job ads originally appeared in the magazine too.

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

It all sound very good. A fresh breath of air in aviation. A new business opportunity, good ideas, good perspectives,...

However if this means upsetting the BA UK pilots, I think we should all be extremely carefull.

As a pilot you do not want to be in the middle of a new 49er or 1989 dispute, not me thats for certain!

I just hope BALPA and BA will be able to settle their problems and a general acceptable solution can be found for all parties involved!

[Angus Meecoat]

The whole BA European project could be killed off by the FAA before its born never mind the BA Pilots.

Interesting article in the Times last week in that the FAA are looking to cut back movements at JFK and there will be no room for any more expansion.

I can't see BA giving up any of their current UK to JFK routes to free up space for the new venture.

Maybe Newark is the only option.

[Tandemrotor]

Who knows where this could go? Not me for sure.

However, there is a big push from balpa (BA) to ensure pilots operating this work are on the BA list.

Due to the nature of the work patterns, and the salaries currently muted, it may not prove particularly popular with many 'nigels', even if it is made available!

Five (two pilot) transatlantics a month, may not sound arduous to people for whom it is new, however, over a period of time, it will take it's toll perhaps??

900 hours a year won't appeal to everyone. I can easily imagine this would turn into a 'stepping stone' airline, where people take the experience, and run.

Enjoy.

[Hand Solo]

Not to mention the prospect of having JFK at one end or the other of every flight! Hope they like Canarsies!

[RevMan2]

Due to the nature of the work patterns, and the salaries currently muted...
Yep, always a good thing to keep quiet about pay levels

[Flap Track 6]

I can't see BA giving up any of their current UK to JFK routes to free up space for the new venture.

So they get the slots from AA, who then possibly joins the venture as a full risk and revenue sharing partner.

[Jenson Button]

I understand that many ex-BA 75/76 drivers with DHL and Silverjet are looking at this seriously, some might even be helping to run it ??

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Pay levels are known to the ones who passed the initial screening.

The route structure will take its toll after a while, talk to the guys from Privatair, they know all about it!

But on the other hand, the lifestyle offered is a rather stable one, with fixed roster patterns and gateway airports to choose from.

As well there is no seniority list, which I think is a thing from the past and only works in big carriers such as BA, AF and LH. Everything is based on Merrit.

A stepping stone airline...I doubt it...Not with a B757 rating on your licence!

regarding Canarsies....I rather like them? Beats ILS27R in LHR everyday no?

[Hand Solo]

Not when you're trying to do it a 0230Z in marginal weather after an 8 hour transatlantic crossing.

I'm rather suspiscious of stability of the proposed fixed roster and gateway airports. I've yet to see any evidence that Lauren is going to be run differently from any other BA operation, ie on a shoestring. I don't think it would be long before they are asking pilots to work on days off or operate from other gateway airports.

[JW411]

"After an 8 hour transatlantic crossing"

I had it in my mind that you were done with short haul and had moved on to long haul?

Carnasies are fun; just don't upset the folks in Ozone Park!

[Desert Diner]

Not sure how popular the 757's are going to be with the passengers.

[fendant]

757's on long haul routes are definitely NOT popular with frequent travellers. Maybe ok for cheap high density tourist cattle transports though.

Frank

[TopBunk]

I suspect that it very much depends on how they are configured!

The Privatair 757 seating 50-ish was/is good enough for the Stones World Tour and various ex-US presidents etc.

I suspect frequent business class travellers would be content with BA Flat bed club world product even with the single aisle plus a rear WTP cabin - say 60J and 40WTP (just guessing, and without inside information).

[gas path]

..................say 60J and 40WTP (just guessing, and without inside information).
30/30/30 plus some nice shiny blended winglets to look at:ok:

[Hand Solo]

"After an 8 hour transatlantic crossing"

Yep. BA schedule 7 hours or more for LHR-JFK at M0.84. From the EU to the US at 757 speeds is gonna be a long slog.

I suspect frequent business class travellers would be content with BA Flat bed club world product even with the single aisle plus a rear WTP cabin - say 60J and 40WTP

Could they fit 60J ona 757 and still have space for anything else?

[Cyrano]

Could they fit 60J ona 757 and still have space for anything else?

EOS has 48 flat beds per 757 - not sure BA could fit many more than that unless they can somehow squeeze more than 4 abreast...

[Heffer]

I thought the plan for "BA European" was for Economy & Premium Economy cabin only (on the 75 anyway). No business or first.

[justinzider]

Here are the pay scales....

Rank Basic Salary Pension and benefits allowance Total Basic pay
Captain £73,500 £11,025 £84,525
Senior First Officer £44,100 £5,513 £49,613
First Officer £37,800 £3,780 £41,580

In addition we pay sector pay, and you will be entitled to per-diem overnight allowances and positioning allowances. Training Captains are paid additional amounts (total basic pay of £102,064 for base training captains and of £95,851 for line training captains).

There will also be a performance related bonus plan which will pay a bonus as a percentage of basic pay depending on corporate and individual targets.

Other Than Trainers, Are Their Other Opportunities?
We do have other non-flying roles, such as management pilot jobs and selection assessors. Vacancies are advertised from time to time. Appointments are on merit. The terms and conditions applicable to these posts will be advised either in the advertisement or during the selection process. In most cases, if you work additional days you will be paid extra, and if you fly less, you will be compensated for loss of sector pay etc.

What is the Difference Between SFOs and FOs?
An SFO must have at least 500 hrs on type and an unrestricted ATPL (A). Promotion from FO to SFO is normally automatic on gaining the qualification criteria.

Do You Operate a Seniority System?
No. Promotion, appointments, movements between bases, etc are all based on merit, the Company's needs and your desires.

How Do You Select For Command Then?
As a rapidly expanding Airline, we expect excellent opportunities for advancement to command.

Promotion to Captain will be on merit. Periodically, the Company will invite applications from qualified SFOs for a place on a "Command Shortlist". Subject to successfully passing a competitive selection process, applicants will be placed on the shortlist and as command vacancies arise, candidates for command training will be drawn from the Command Shortlist. When a new Command Shortlist is drawn up, those on the previous Command Shortlist will be considered for inclusion on the new list, but will have no right to be included. Inclusion on the list will confer no right to command training.

How Much is the Sector Pay?
Sector Pay is £100/sector for Captains, £65/sector for SFOs, and £50/sector for FOs. You can expect to be rostered between 110 & 120 sectors per year. A sector is a single transatlantic sector from any EU airport to the US or vice versa.

How much are the Allowances?
There is a table of positioning allowances from each Gateway Airport to each of the BA European Operating Airports. They are designed to cover the costs of positioning by land transport.

Overnight (per-diem) allowances are to provide for food and other living costs while you are on duty away from your Gateway Airport. The current rates are $100 per day in the US and €75 in Europe. They will normally be paid in local currency.

The allowances are not subject to tax, as they are to cover your expenses.

[Fly4Fun]

HI to all

Where can we have a look and where to apply to this new venture?
Are they still recruiting? Do they take non rated pilots?

Thanks a lot in advance

Happy landings :ok:

[Sick]

F4F
1. Website has gone
2. Looks like you've missed the boat for the first wave.
3. They seem to (at least as far as the follow up questionnaire stage; Remains to be seen if rated DHL'ers etc soak up all the places)

The basing looks odd to me...
Your gateway (home base) can be changed at their behest once per year!!!
You are required to travel to other company bases on surface transport!!! (or foot the bill for more practical air travel yourself presumably)

BALPA/BA pilot's whinges should be given short thrift as they come out with lame old "BA work, BA work, BA work".
No it isn't; The only BA connection is that it is BAs capital and expertise. The flights dont even touch UK soil. The BA pilots can have even less claim on Lauren/BA European posts than was the case with 'Go'.

[757drivergla]

-Sick - ....'BALPA/BA pilot's whinges should be given short thrift as they come out with lame old "BA work, BA work, BA work".
No it isn't; The only BA connection is that it is BAs capital and expertise. The flights dont even touch UK soil. The BA pilots can have even less claim on Lauren/BA European posts than was the case with 'Go'.'

So...BA set it up using their capital, their assets (at this stage at least 2 BA 75s will be removed from the mainline fleet to be utilised), use their management to implement and start it up running under the BA banner and therefore of course their pilots should be allowed absolutely no interest in this at all? Rubbish. Of course the current BA workforce should feel some angst towards it.

It is entirely understandable that the company should desire to use this as an opportunity to make a clean break and not burden themselves with the current age-old pay and roster structure. Who can blame them? It makes sound financial sense to try to reduce the overheads where possible. You will most likely find that the majority of BA pilots would be willing to work there at the different rates, for various reasons, not least of which would provide more opportunities for command advancement. To say that they should have no right to it is ridiculous especially as there are already hundreds of pilots from both sides of the flight deck with current B757/767 ratings on their license who could quite easily fill those seats. Such a policy exists at the likes of Easy and other pan-European carriers and one doesn't hear many sour grapes about it from those parts of the community. If there is a seat available then somebody from somewhere else within the company can bid for it, regardless of nationality or origin and destination of services run at that base.

Secondly, what you will find is that BECAUSE it is the same management who are setting it up, the BA staff are worried this will leave the door open to these new T's and C's being adopted eventually back at the mothership. Regardless of what your personal opinions are on the current contracts, it is only human nature to be concerned that somebody may attempt to make negative changes to the T's and C's, and consequently lifestyle, that one had planned on and made decisions around when they joined.

Now if you happen to be one of those who would like a job at this new setup, then I would understand that you might be nervous that what seems like a potential opportunity might be watered down by the use of pilots already within the airline but ultimately new jobs are being created everywhere because of this. The pilots working for BA in Europe will leave seats to fill wherever they come from, internal or external, so you shouldn't feel aggrieved. I myself haven't decided whether or not the concept appeals to me or not yet but i certainly wouldn't make the mistake of thinking BA crew shouldn't have anything invested in it.

[Fly4Fun]

Thanks Sick

I´ll wait for the next boat. :O
Meanwhile let´s see how it starts.

Loads of happy landings :ok:

[Tandemrotor]

Sick
I wouldn't for a second, consider taking the job if there was even the slightest chance that BA mainliners could in the future, parachute in and take the commands in a manner similar to what I believe happened at GSS.


Let's hope you don't waste too much time or energy, before the bad news comes through. :rolleyes:

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Did anyone receive any news since sending back the answer on those two questions?

Did not receive anything so far, and interviews supposed to be next week...:confused:

[northern boy]

Contacted for interview then received email an hour later saying date was cancelled, will be in touch. email contained rather silly spelling mistake. Does rather make one go hmmmmm....

Have to agree with sick re BA F/O's on parachutes. Feel the same way, no harm in having a look though.

Respect to all BA drivers but this looks to be a separate operation, one look at the T & C's would tell you that. Seems to be more akin to GO than anything else. Surely with a bucket load of 380's on order you have better opportunities where you are?

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Who ?

Me?

Opportunities?


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Algy]

Bit self-indulgent, but cute (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/airline-business/2007/11/thanks-goodness-her-name-wasnt.html#more)...

[G-DESK]

Does anyone have any contact details for the "Flight Operations Executive" job that was on Aviationjobsearch last week? Was travelling all week and when I went to apply yesterday the advert had gone. I know they're probably trawling through hundreds of CVs, but it's exactly the thing I'm after and I believe I have exactly what they're looking for. If anyone knows a way of getting in touch with someone who might be open to receiving a CV I would greatly appreciate a PM. Thanks :ok:

[PAXboy]

G-DESK, it looks as if the job ref was 91895 and based in Wokingham, as it shows up on historical searches but is now reported as: This job is no longer available on the system.

That is one of the problems of electronic recruitment, as opposed to a newspaper. :{

[G-DESK]

Thanks for looking PAXboy, I found the same - everywhere else that turns up on Google just links back to the advert no longer available page on aviationjobsearch. Guess this is what my gran meant when she told me the early bird catches the worm :{

[Walnut]

Project Lauren has been launched by BA because of the acute slot shortage at LHR and the great uncertainty at LHR following the introduction of Open Skies next April.
BA rejected the option to buy the GB airways slots at LGW (approx 30) at a cost of £3M each and yet in the same breath bid for the GB LHR slots (4). They got 1, with Continental getting 2, and Qatar 1. However these slots cost about £20M each.
There have been several other "slot swaps" between partner airlines at LHR this winter.
However there is a ticking time bomb at LHR with the coverted 14% of prime time slots held by by bmi. Lufthansa has a 30% stake in bmi and just like BA with the GB slots at LGW has first call on the purchase of bmi. This option matures soon, and must value bmi at least £1.25B. Likewise SAS owns 20% of bmi and is hoping to sell its stake soon.
All three of these airlines are part of the Star Alliance an arch rival of BA.
Just to add a little more interest to the Airline ownership situation at LHR, it is heavily rumoured that Singapore airlines is seeking to sell its 50% stake in Virgin. Virgin is of course non aligned but SIA is part of the Star Alliance.
This brings me back to PL, more than anything I believe any delay in pilot recruitment within PL is subject to the jockying by airlines over their future North Atlantic flights, however Balpa is right to reject any calls by BA to ignore the current Scope agreement it has with its pilots.

[Just a spotter]

http://flyopenskies.com/

JAS

[James T. Kirk]

Just another three class service then


Flyopenskies

[Fargoo]

Notice the registered company name

BA European Ltd :eek:

Must have taken at least 5 minutes creative thinking to dream that one up :ugh:

[cjhants]

when he says "one of the only airlines" he means only one of the airlines!
nice spin dale:)

notice the 757 has wing fences, does this mean they are buying new(er) aircraft, or is this just to make the 75`s look sexy?

[gazbert]

notice the 757 has wing fences, does this mean they are buying new(er) aircraft, or is this just to make the 75`s look sexy?Flight (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/09/220713/picture-bas-new-carrier-openskies-to-operate-82-seat-757s.html) are saying old 757s with retrofitted winglets.

[Swedish Steve]

BA Owned B757 will be withdrawn from European service and fitted with winglets by BA at LHR. First two are PEJ and PEK. Hangar input starts mid Feb.

[Sallyann1234]

Notice the registered company name
BA European Ltd
Must have taken at least 5 minutes creative thinking to dream that one up
What's the problem with the name? For company registration it just has to be a unique name, and for trading purposes it's useful to have a link to the owner.


For marketing of course, they need something special and OpenSkies seems as good a name as any.

[BerksFlyer]

notice the 757 has wing fences, does this mean they are buying new(er) aircraft, or is this just to make the 75`s look sexy?

What an uninformed comment. As if they would do something to make the aircraft look 'sexy'. Aircraft aesthetics aren't important beyond the livery as far as management are concerned.

It's to improve fuel efficiency and improve takeoff performance. And as previously mentioned, they are to be retrofitted. Obvious considering the 757s are coming from BA's current 757 fleet, and BA do not have winglets fitted already.

[Flightrider]

Hmmm. Saying that you're fitting winglets to a 757 to make it environmentally friendly when you've only got 82 seats to start with is an interesting argument.

Are the pilots going on the Thomas Cook seniority list then?

[Taildragger67]

Pretty ordinary rendering of a 757. The Speedmarque is going backwards, for a start.

Actually the whole website is a bit... well, if Lauren is Mr Moss's granddaughter, then she could probably have done a better job.

If you're going to launch an airline on one of the most highly competitive runs in the world, you only get one launch so you'd better do it right. This just looks... well, a bit too media-luvvie touchy-feely.

If this is launching mid-year, they should have already sorted out the route, the slots, the schedule, the initial crew (both aircraft and office) - this thing should, with five months to go, be ready to roll and just waiting for the aircraft to be repainted. The sooner you can get the punters to part with their $ or £, the sooner you have revenue coming in.

I'm also amazed there's no mention of an FFP - if they are a full-service BA subsidiary, then I suggest there'd be an assumption that Open Skies will be a member of oneworld (or at least an affiliate via the EC) - but no mention. So does that mean no EC on Open Skies flights? No loyalty scheme = fewer loyal premium customers.

[WHBM]

Actually the whole website is a bit... well, if Lauren is Mr Moss's granddaughter, then she could probably have done a better job.

I like their "media" page :

Everything you need to know about our airline—from its very beginnings—can be found here.

Followed by one 1-page press release. With telephone numbers for contact that do not indicate they are US telephone numbers (remember this is a British company).

Presumably the website was put together by a BA IT trainee - no, on reflection, by their top team.

[MarkD]

Lazy rendering or is BA Aviation Partners newest customer?

[bjones4]

Lazy rendering or is BA Aviation Partners newest customer?

The latter, the first two aircraft to join OpenSkies, G-BPEJ in May and G-BPEK in October will be fitted with winglets before entering service.

[take-off]

As a pax , find it rather ironic, that if succesful no doubt your be able to fly BA from all parts of europe to the U.S, but try and do that in its home county and you get laughed at!:}:}:}

[jimworcs]

You would have to be stupid not to know that the numbers are not in America. Firstly, the address is right below the number, and it is in New York. The email specifies americas in the address, the first two words on the press release locate it in NEW YORK. Do you assume we are all thick?

[Flapping_Madly]

Strewth! One of the only airlines with 6 foot beds. ???

How can you be one of the only??

[cjhants]

berks flyer:
my post was a dig at clever marketing, trying to make the picture look like a newer aircraft than it actually is.

[Taildragger67]

jimworcs,

The address on the press release might be that of their 'communications' company in the US;

If you’re not in a writing mood for our blog, there are other ways to get a hold of us. Email, post—doesn’t matter. We’re delighted you’re inspired to reach out.

Press Contact:
[email protected]

Post:
BA European Ltd
Registered address
PO box 365
Harmondsworth
Middlesex
UB7 0GB
United Kingdom


"We're delighted you're inspired to reach out". What a w@nk. Where do they get these people?

[TartinTon]

"Where do they get these people"

Answer - The USA.

Anyone who's worked with Dale at BA will be able to tell you what a "joy" it was to "be inspired" by him......:yuk::yuk:

[TURIN]

Hmmm. Saying that you're fitting winglets to a 757 to make it environmentally friendly when you've only got 82 seats to start with is an interesting argument.

Are the pilots going on the Thomas Cook seniority list then?


Nothing to do with saving the planet.

Everything to do with cutting costs.:ok:

[HZ123]

I think 'Dale' was very good on Supermarket sweep. BA has also looked at gaining a number of 757's from IB. I am not sure this is well thought out and maybe to late. Some of the revenue may be taken from LHR mainline services and it concerns me the number of players already in the market. I suppose the real gain is that with the mainline support it costs little to set up. If not a success then it will be sold within 3 years.

[MarkD]

Another "GO"? Is Barbara Cassani waiting in the wings :E

[tristar500]

Too little, too late... TOO BAD :ugh:

Wee Willie Winkie has really ''pulled this one off'' with style - or not.
I mean with one aircraft, whats the policy for technical failures and the likes? Silverjet, EOS and Maxjet all suffered so why shouldnt 'Openskies'...
Not being a part of 'Waterworld', I mean 'Oneworld', its not so easy to transfer pax over to BA in the event of a snag. 2 totally different operations we are led to beleive.

Wonder how much BA paid to have the livery and logo drawn up. Grey underside? Hardly eyecatching, appealing or 'different'... Whats so special about it? Nothing whatsoever. At least GO had a lively and modern feel about it with bright colours and advertising.

Remember, 'Battleship Grey' if nothing else :E

[brian_dromey]

I thought that OpenSkies will be code-sharing with BA?

Either way their FFP is most likely going to be BA Executive Club, and thats what counts in this market really. I thought the whole point of OPEN SKIES was to capitalise on their own FFP base who would travel direct. Probably the ground handling will be BA as well, so rerouting should be pretty easy.

Brian.

[Swedish Steve]

Any one else notice that the artists drawing of a B757 in Openskies livery is not a BA B757, in fact it is not even a B757-200. It is a B757-300 as it has 8 doors and 4 overwing exits. All the BA B757 are -200s and have 8 doors.