Rex suspends maryborough services too

[chief wiggum]

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20071105/pdf/315mlxndzhblwk.pdf

But it is STILL not REX's fault! it is all the other nasty airlines who don't have their own pilots.

to quote the WIGGLES .... "WAKE UP GEOFF!"

[eye_in_the_sky]

Media Release
5 November 2007
REX ANNOUNCES SUSPENSION OF MARYBOROUGH SERVICES DUE TO
PILOT SHORTAGE
Australia’s largest independent regional airline, Regional Express (Rex) today announced the
suspension until March 2008 of its recently commenced Brisbane – Maryborough services due to
on-going pilot shortages.
Rex Managing Director Geoff Breust said, “We are extremely disappointed that we have had to take
this drastic action given our major commitment to the new Maryborough service and the great
support received from the Maryborough City Council, Brisbane Airport, the Queensland Government
and of course our customers.
“However, given the pilot shortage, we are faced with the choice of suspending some of our regular
services to build up a reserve buffer or cancelling ad hoc flights each time a pilot calls in sick. We
believe that the former is the more responsible course of action and provides greater certainty to our
customers. Rex has traditionally been the airline with the lowest cancellation rates in Australia and
we intend for it to remain that way even in these very trying circumstances.
“This suspension is the result of a network review to identify the routes that have the lowest load
factors so as to inconvenience the least number of regional travellers and follows similar initiatives
that we have undertaken on the Cooma and Wagga Wagga services in New South Wales. We do
not foresee any further suspension of services but we will monitor the situation very closely,” said Mr
Breust.
Giving further details of its pilot situation, Mr Breust said, “Rex has the full complement of pilots for
its flying schedule but 15% of them are in the final stages of their two month ground school and
simulator training. These pilots will progressively join Rex’s flying ranks between now and
Christmas. This has resulted in a thinning out of our normal pool of reserve crews to meet
contingencies like last minute illnesses.
“The shortage of pilots has even been described by the chief pilot of Qantas as being even more
catastrophic than the collapse of Ansett and obviously we and all other airlines are badly hit.
However at Rex we are confident that the problem will be only a temporary set back. To date, we
have over 700 applicants for our pilot cadet scheme and the first batch of 20 selected candidates will
commence their 32 weeks of training at the Rex pilot academy on 10th December 2007. The first
few intakes will be exclusively for Rex cadets before the Academy is opened to private students and
cadets from other domestic or foreign airlines.
“We call on the other major airlines in Australia to train their own pilots instead of simply poaching
massively from the regional airlines and the pilot training schools. So far, besides Rex, only Qantas
seems to have made any plans in this direction,” said Mr Breust.
The Brisbane to Maryborough services have been suspended as from today and will resume from
Sunday 16 March 2008. All passengers holding reservations for travel are requested to contact the
Rex Customer Contact Centre on 13 17 13. Flights can be held in credit and used for travel beyond
the 16 March 2008, or alternatively a full refund will be provided.
Rex is Australia’s largest independent regional airline operating a fleet of 35 Saab 340 aircraft on 1,300
flights weekly to 25 destinations from Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Brisbane. The Rex Group of
companies comprises of Regional Express, air freight and charter operator Pel – Air Aviation and Dubbo
based regional airline, Air Link.
-

Terrible state of affairs..... share price has taken a tumble today....

[Keg]

Everyone's share prices have taken a tumble today but yes, 5% is probably worse than most others! :ok: :}

[strobe12]

"poaching", is this bloke serious??

I have to laugh at this comment, does he know where his pilots are coming from?? I guess whats good for the goose is good for the gander as long as you dont ask about it!

I think a better term would be progression, but hey, let the "poaching" continue until they realise that until T&C's are improved nothing will stop them.

Just out of curiosity does anyone know what the bonds being applied to the guys/girls doing the rex cadet scheme? Will that stop them walking after a few years............

Hope that it works out for the employee's of REX, it would be a shame for the worst to happen

[Hugh Jarse]

“We call on the other major airlines in Australia to train their own pilots instead of simply poaching massively from the regional airlines and the pilot training schools. So far, besides Rex, only Qantas seems to have made any plans in this direction,” said Mr Breust.

Horsefeathers! The other airlines are NOT poaching REX pilots or any others for that matter. Poaching occurs when a potential employer actively approaches a prospective employee (often when having received a lead from a current employee), and offering inducements to leave their present employer. As far as I'm aware all the movement in the industry at the moment has been at the initiation of the employee, so how can it be poaching??:confused:

Poaching may be minimised by the making of a counter-offer by the current employer to prevent the employee leaving. It happens all the time in the IT industry, but never in the airlines.:hmm:

[galdian]

Reckon the airlines will stop "poaching" REX pilots about the same time REX stops "poaching" pilots from the GA operators who operate the Kingairs, Navajos, 402's, Barons etc etc.

So REX/Mr Breust when will you show leadership by action and cease poaching other operators pilots??

[GaryGnu]

Call me a cynic if you like but is there a possibility that the routes REX are withdrawing from are not profitable and very politically sensitive?

Does the "Pilot Shortage" provide some cover when REX are inevitably questioned by State and Regional Local Governments as to why they are choosing to withdraw from certain routes?

Perhaps those in the know can enlighten the rest.

[Jabawocky]

I reckon a chartered C208 would fill the gap.......:}

When does charter become RPT.....thats not been tested before in Qld now has it???:suspect:

[SIUYA]

GaryGnu


Call me a cynic if you like but is there a possibility that the routes REX are withdrawing from are not profitable and very politically sensitive?


Good question, incredibly well put, but damned if I know! :D

FACTS:

Maryborough is in the Wide Bay electorate. Federal Member is Warren Truss MP Deputy Leader of The Nationals

Wagga is in Riverina. Federal Member is Kay Hull, MP, Chief Whip of The Nationals

Cooma is in Eden Monaro. Federal Member is Gary Nairn, Liberal Party, Special Minister of State.


Hmmmmm. Anyone care to comment?

[farrari]

GaryGnu, I think you may be on to something here, like many others on this site i know well qualified pilots who Rex will not even look at.
As a share holder I would be asking questions at the next AGM.
Something just does not add up!:confused:

[airbusthreetwenty]

Just saw the leading stories for Sydney's Channel 10 5pm news.

The Rex pilot shortage is headlining.

Should be interesting..

[Niles Crane]

Yes, there would be a political argument to stop these routes during the election.

Also, they keep using the word "Poach", this too has political overtones especially with the ACCC.

If it can be shown that a competitor, QF, Virgin, Porn* etc are forcing you out of business by "Paoching" all your qualified staff, their may be recompence through the ACCC.

We live in interesting times

[Crankhandle]

About time GB started to question his magnificent pilot management staff ie CH & MN,
A large number of his senior pilots just had a gutfull of their b******t and have retired early. They are too old to be of interest to the majors but would have been willing and able to continue in REX if GB would just get rid of the second rate management pilots and that includes a few of those check and training types who have been there too long.
When will minor airlines like REX learn that they do need experience, these new trainees will not be ready for commands for years, REX needs captains now.
Extract the diget Geoff, those management pilots you have are wrecking what used to be a good little airline, get rid of the dead-wood up top and it might go some way to retaining experienced pilots, then add a realistic pay packet or you'll loose the lot.

[jarjar]

Xr dont seem to have problems with retaining their crews, me thinks it might have something to do with T&C's.

JarJar

[VH-Cheer Up]

When does one person's career ladder (GA-Regional-Mainline) become another person's game reserve?

Whether it's by poaching or natural migration, the cream will eventually rise to the top!

If the local companies tried to prevent that process, they would merely be inviting pilots to emigrate.

Welcome to the cause and effect relationship of market economics, Geoff.

[bushy]

"the cream will always rise to the top" ????
Sounds like arrogance to me. Who can establish where the top is?

[Icarus53]

“This suspension is the result of a network review to identify the routes that have the lowest load
factors so as to inconvenience the least number of regional travellers and follows similar initiatives
that we have undertaken on the Cooma and Wagga Wagga services in New South Wales. We do
not foresee any further suspension of services but we will monitor the situation very closely,”

You've gotta love the way they try to spin things! Aside from the "poach" comment which has been met with incredulity since it was first used weeks ago, apparently Rex are cancelling routes with the lowest load factors "so as to inconvenience the least number of regional travellers" (rather than to limit revenue loss)!

I also like their use of the word "initiative" here. In my book, taking initiative would indicate some measure designed to get the organisation back on the attack. Sorry, but cancelling services simply doesn't qualify under this banner.

The last sentence could be more simply stated as "we won't cancel anything else unless we have to". Comforting. I wonder whether the other regional carriers have started to notice an influx of customers who would normally travel with Rex, but who would prefer a degree of certainty in their plans. Once that happens, watch the incipient become an unstable spin!

Two cents poorer,

Icarus

[bizzybody]

"I reckon a chartered C208 would fill the gap.......:}


way ahead of ya there.but not with a 208

Bizz

[F111]

Why doesn’t REX just speak the truth! The numbers on BNE-MBH do not and will not support a Saab. Every other operator has linked MBH/HVB; it’s the only way to make it work. MBH alone has always been low numbers and mostly business traffic.

So what happens to the REX pilots who have just moved to BNE?

[RYAN TCAD]

Another route bites the dust!

In my previous posts on the REX canels Cooma service thread, i made a few points of view from my experiences of which Shapeshifter took it upon himself to carefully choose a few of - twist them - give it a shake and shift them - then try to make himself look all cool by stating that their recruitment team got it right when they knocked me back!

Problem is Shapeshifter - unless they had a crystal ball prior to and during my interview, they wouldn't have possibly known that i was to convey my own experiences about them - because, i hadn't actually experienced them up to that point.

Shapeshifter - you are probably a REX pilot that is trying to defend the indefensible! Poor you.

Main points being that they are disorganised, cannot understand why their pilots are leaving in droves, cry fowl falsely and mask it as a massive pilot shortage (in the hope that Government listen and open the migration floodgates and hence keep wages and conditions at an all time LOW!) when this is not the true case!

You and GB do not realise, or are dumb or stupid - that when his pilots call in sick at the last minute, they are actually attending job interviews with other airlines.

He needs to wake up and realise that he would not be in this position if he had better T's&C's. Pilots are leaving REX in bigger numbers first because they have the WORST pay and conditions compared to other regionals in their calibre.

Unfortunately for me at my experience level, REX was just another entity at which i would have to apply - to get the experience, to climb the ladder.

Fortunately for me however, i did not place all my eggs into one basket, secondly i was rejected by REX and thirdly - i was accepted into QF Link for their course the following week.

BTW - read GoNorth's post about the pay after 10K for endorsement Shapeshifter. Learn from this. And next time you think about writing real drivel, think twice about the 'KNOB' factor and how one perceives you.

Bo!

[gallie girl]

So what happens to the REX pilots who have just moved to BNE?
as posted by F111? Anybody shed some light on this?????

GG

[Altimeters]

They have been moved to other ports.

[boofta]

Rex Management
I predict your next move will be a bleating, plea to the government
about allowing a pilot migration program.
How can you stop the poaching otherwise!
The cadets will come,but too late.

[To infinity & beyond]

Just think Geoff..... In just 32 weeks, maybe less for a really good student, you could be a pilot too. You could get everyone at management to do it and your problem would be solved!!!!!!

P.S. I take cash for consulting.

[Mr. Hat]

Gotta love the emotional blackmail:

each time a pilot calls in sick

Those nasty Pilots.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Treat people properly and they will not only stay but bend over backwards for you.

“We call on the other major airlines in Australia to train their own pilots instead of simply poaching
massively from the regional airlines and the pilot training schools.

Those nasty Airlines.

Do you think your competitors are running a charity my friend? Seriously, you think this is bad? Just wait till those VB EJets are belting around the countryside at 73 speeds.

The game is won by retaining staff not hiring and training. Make no mistake.

[Mstr Caution]

This is merely the tip of the iceburg!

The majors are only now starting to ramp up there recruitment, this will be ongoing for some years to come.

So, ya think REX has problems now. What this space.:8

[KRUSTY 34]

This morning,

2 Melbourne based REX Captains accepted by DJ. Highly experienced Check and Trainers in their 50's!!!!

Virgin can obviously see the value of these people.

REX management, you have got to be insane!!!!!

[aircraft]

KRUSTY 34, never missing an opportunity to denigrate REX:
Virgin can obviously see the value of these people.
Only a total fool would think REX didn't value these people. In fact, it is an absolute certainty that REX would have valued these individuals more highly than VB probably ever will.

How much they are paid is not an indication of how much they are valued.

REX management, you have got to be insane!!!!!There is no way the management can be insane when the financial performance of REX has been as strong as it has.

REX just cannot match the T&Cs offered by operators such as VB. This is the reality, KRUSTY 34, and you know it, but for some reason you would rather pretend otherwise so that you can continue to hammer your own company.

Mr. Hat said:
Treat people properly and they will not only stay but bend over backwards for you.Ok, so just what is "treat people properly"? I think you probably mean "don't work them too hard". This is aviation, Mr Hat, and to make those razor thin profits that aviation is so well known for you must work your staff and your aircraft hard.

[ules]

"We call on the other major airlines in Australia to train their own pilots instead of simply poaching massively from the regional airlines and the pilot training schools," Mr Breust said.
AAP

lol this is preety funny. i dont know how major airlines steal pilots, id love it if they kidnaped me and gave me a job. by sayin that. it just shows that rex obviously are not treating their pilots very well, either in pay or watsoever conditions.
wow thats some preety strong words to say from rex. :eek:
dont think i will be applying for their cadetship.

[Transition Layer]

instead of simply poaching massively from the regional airlines and the pilot training schools

Hang on there, in the past Rex have been more than happy to do the 'poaching' themselves from higher end GA companies/small regionals etc. Now the shoe is on the other foot and they cry like a baby. Aren't "pilot training schools" exactly that? Places where pilots are trained?

Congrats to all of those who have moved on from the sinking ship and good luck to all of those looking to get out soon. It can't be a fun place to work right now.

[KRUSTY 34]

Aircraft,

You know, for someone who has never worked for REX, (or do you????), your comments are insulting to say the least.

Rex was born out of the ashes of the Ansett regionals, Kendell and Hazelton. You were in school at the time. I was there before, during and after the collapse. Like my other colleges who have actually been there, I remember all too well the dark times.

I saw with pride the growth of REX, from shaky beginnings to become the premier regional airline in Australia. I have stated previously that the job done by the owners was absolutely marvelous. They retired debt, they rationalised ports, grew the business, and created economies of scales that other Regionals could only dream about. This led to more people travelling on regional services than ever before. The fares are now effectively half of what they were a decade ago. Profits are at record levels, and the share price has nearly trippled since the initial listing!

The boss employed the basic principals listed above, and stayed the rational economic course. Through all of this however, the plentiful supply of skilled labour was never an issue. That situation has now done a complete 180 degree turn. The alarm bells started ringing in earnest at the beginning of this year. The warning signs were there for some time before that. It appears that the action required to deal with this situation is not part of those principals.

I have never denegrated REX. I have said in previous posts that I beleieve it to be (was) one of the best jobs in Aus Aviation. I do however, hold REX management, and most other air operators responsible for this crisis. I sit back in total amazment and watch all the hard work of the previous years now in serious jeapody because management have not embarked on the only course of action that would have mitigated this situation.

When the Dam started to leak, management stood at the bottom and simply did nothing. When the trickle became a stream, they moved to put more water in?? Now that tricke is set to become a flood. What are they doing? Hoping for rain in about 12 months time!

No matter how you look at it....Insane!!!!!

[SemperFly]

Aircraft said:
How much they are paid is not an indication of how much they are valued.
Well actually yes it is, its an exact indication.

val·ue (vhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.giflhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifyhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oomacr.gif)n.
1. An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return.
2. Monetary or material worth.

[apache]

Aircraft..... Putting aside the actual definition of "VALUE" as given to us by semperfly, how would YOU define value ? and how much a company VALUES its employees ?

go... I am interested in YOUR definition of value.

[The Kavorka]

Well my friends I think the end in near............:confused:

VB took their E-Jet into Albury on the weekend and will be travelling to many more of Rexs' high yeilding country ports in the near future..

QF will counter VB by placing a Q400 to compete againt the E-Jet, so where does this leave Rex.......dead in the water!!!!!

A very sad day indeed for many of my mates that still work there.......

The amount of recruiting that will take place next year will be unheard of........JQ alone want over 200 pilots.......So if they think they are having a pilot crisis now, wait until then.....

By the way...who is going to train the cadets, last I heard flying schools were screaming for instructors, so if Bruesty thinks his cadets will be ready in anything less than 18 months he is even dumber than he looks....

I'm glad I sold my shares when I did, and I think there will be a lot of people sell them while they are over inflated...

[boardpig]

I too have been increasingly frustrated by this situation. I used to think Rex would have been one of the best employers in Aus and for many years had my sights set on working for them. Whether you are for them or not, you cannot escape the fact that this situation is being very badly handled by mgt and whatever way you spin it, Rex are looking to employ the lowest common fix rather than taking the lead. Pilots will leave if they can get better pay and conditions, to say this is a suprise, is nonsense and quite niave. Flying for a living can be great but after 6 months or so, it becomes a job like any other and your priorities will then become on whether you can afford to eat and pay your rent/mortgage at your current position. Like any job, if you can do better for yourself, you will.
In a previous post someone mentioned how the airline had begun from humble beginnings to show record profits and become one of the premier regional airlines in Aus. It is extremely sad then that dollar hungry mgt will not use these profits to retain its staff and level of service, but pocket the money instead and cry poor to the govt. To say they are not trying persuade the govt to review the immigration situation is again closing your eyes from the truth. I know many, many pilots here and overseas (aussies) whom Rex hasnt even written back to, why? If there is such a shortage, surely they would be keen to make contact? It might be because those pilots simply cant live on 40k/55k/year. The sad thing here is that Rex mgt are literally standing by (what their motivation is I can only guess) while all previous hard work and effort expended to make the airline so noteable, is unravelled and in the end will basically count for nothing.
As someone who has spent the last few years wanting to work for Rex, I am now dissapointed that I no longer do. A few of my friends were captains there on the Sabbs and they have since left for the EXACT reason that TandC's where abismal.
Its still not too late for Rex to turn this around and it would be amazing if they did. Time though, is running out.:ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

Aircraft its time you to get off your high horse and wake up to yourself. Normally I'm quite happy to listen to a differing view to mine but when you start carrying on like you're giving a lecture in "Hard Work 101" my willingness to listen fades.

Assuming that those with opinions different to yours don't know whats required to turn a profit in this industry is arrogance of the highest level.

Being the hard work expert, you'd know that people actually like working hard but they also like to keep pace with the times. I.e. people like to be rewarded for their efforts.

Your argument holds no water whatsoever as there are companies in this country that don't have the massive turn over that rex have and really don't pay that much more. And then there are those that have an even bigger percentage of turnover but don't carry on like spoilt little brats to the media when an airline takes their pilots.

I happen to know quite a few people that work for rex and let me tell you they're as good as it gets when it comes to hard work.

This is aviation, Mr Hat, and to make those razor thin profits that aviation is so well known for you must work your staff and your aircraft hard.

Guess what? If people and aircraft are working hard and your profits are razor thin in the biggest economic boom this country has ever known then somethings a miss. Too much time pointing the finger at everyone else me thinks.

[SemperFly]

Aircraft said:
Ok, so just what is "treat people properly"? I think you probably mean "don't work them too hard". This is aviation, Mr Hat, and to make those razor thin profits that aviation is so well known for you must work your staff and your aircraft hard.
Are you taking about these RAZOR THIN profits?

"August 29, 2007 08:50am
DISCOUNT regional airline Regional Express Holdings expects a ten per cent increase in earnings this year after posting a 46.8 per cent jump in full-year net profit after tax (NPAT) for 2006/07.

Rex, which includes its fright and charter business as well as Rex Investment Holding, said group NAPT was $23.1 million in the year just ended, while revenue increased by 29 per cent to $225 million."

And oh by the way that "fright" bit isn't a typo, that is what the article actually says. :)

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,22326787-14334,00.html?from=public_rss

[aircraft]

apache and SemperFly,

If you want to understand my definition of "value", just think of a loved one, for example. Ask yourself how much you value them; then ask yourself how much you pay them.

Mr. Hat,
You didn't answer my question re what is required to "treat people properly". My question is genuine, as all I have been able to garner from these REX threads is that:

1. The pilots are made to work hard, and
2. The crews sometimes have to walk a long distance (at YSSY?) (due no crew bus).

I would like to know how the "improper treatment" goes beyond that expected of an aviation company that is struggling with staff shortages.

43Inches,
There will be a correction or two. There has to be. Don't know exactly when, but there will be. Those corrections could be in the form of operators going bust, economic downturn or a terrorism/SARS like event.

[aircraft]

SemperFly,

Of course airlines can make spectacular profits on occasion, but if you take a longer term view and average the profits out over those longer terms, you will indeed find that the profits tend to be "razor thin".

And this is why you have never seen, and will never see, airlines giving pay rises on the basis of a few profitable years.

Would you like me to elaborate on my assertion re the razor thin profits? I have a few favourite passages from the excellent book "Qantas Flightpaths" that I often quote on PPrune to support this assertion.

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday aircraft me' ol' sparing partner!

3 more REX captains off to greener pastures. 2 more from Melb and another Check and Trainer from Adelaide! The stream has turned into a flood. It is a tragedy unfolding before our eyes.

Your psydo-economic-rational, B.S. is now completely academic.

My original solution for saving this situation, is now probably equally academic.

The panic has set in, and it is possible that no amount of money will stop the exodus!

I remain hopefull that the company can survive, but I am not a superstitious man, and I am afraid that it now may take a miracle!

[SIUYA]

43Inches

....the possibility the market reception for the Embraers in regional townships may not be all its cracked up to be.

Care to specify which regional townships that you think this will occur in, and why? :confused:

[43Inches]

In regard to the market I am refering to the need for VB to fill at least 50% of an EJet on these flights. REX and QFLink which have comparable fares but increased frequency at favourable slot times still get light loads throughout the week out of Albury, this is with 30-50 seat aircraft.

Embraer suggest the E170 needs 60% load factor in typical operations, obviously this will depend on ticket price compared to cost of operation.

Again boils down to the Prop vs New Jet argument.

Can they find 200 pax a day to fly between Albury and Sydney consistantly at a competitive price?

From what i've seen QLink is trying to improve their OTP and Qantas customers tend to stick with them in the face of competition, especially if they get in front on reliability.

The serious side to the argument is that if REX gets knocked out and then VB find the route not viable then pull out what next?

The Embraers will end up supplementing usual routes (if they can crew them) and east coast country services monopolised by QLink.

OR

Virgin will get full loads on all flights and make millions!

[drshmoo]

Transition Layer...... just out of interest have you had any intell on our mates at Rex that arent enjoying themselves...... I understand that they want to move on to greener pastures (not poached) but Rex is still a fun company to work at from my understanding.

Rex (mis)management are just playing the game with the pollies and trying to keep up face so the share price rug isn't pulled out from underneath them. Potential earnings are looking pretty shaky. Increased competition from VB, QF will ramp up competition in response. No one left to fly the Saabs. Interesting times ahead. With less and less check and training staff to actually train people, training could be slower at a time when it should be at its greatest.

Gone are the days where there would be an abundance of 2000 hour tt plus pilots with 1000 hours on twins. We won't see that for probably another 10 years when the next down turn has had a few years to take affect. So in the mean time the market is so good to get a jet job with better T&Cs, that a lot of these GA guys are waiting for the Jet job call up instead of applying to the Regionals and being bonded for 2 years or paying $10k :ugh:(that can't last @ Qlink).

On the Poaching issue...... Every regional airline including the one that I used to fly in has had a huge turn over of pilots and the smaller ones than Rex have lots a far greater % of pilots and indeed captains than Rex but they have not bleated about being Poached. GB is just playing the PR game but its very very poor choice of words - maybe a sign of desperate times in the front office.

I hope Rex lasts and that it remains a fun place that many of my buddies did and still enjoy

[WynSock]

Hey Aircraft,

the Mayor put it simply - just for you...

Maryborough Mayor Barbara Hovard says "you can't fly planes without pilots."
QFlink also take note.

[Mr. Hat]

Aircraft the only point I'd like to comment on is that their needs to be adequate renumeration for pilots at rex.

I'm not going into any other specifics as they were passed on to me in confidence and I don't think it would be constructive nor right for me to comment on a public forum about them as I do not work for the comapny nor do I wish its employees any harm (the opposite actually). All I can say is that people are/were not happy and the renumeration was simply not worth it.

The old supply and demand argument was okay to keep wages low when demand was low. Demand is high now Aircraft. Whats the reason now?

Personally I'd like to see the company survive as I've got good mates there. But it gets my goat when I hear them struggling to make ends meet and even more when pople start pointing the finger at other operators.

Come on - lets cut the crap - an effo living in Sydney is worth more than 40k. Other companies have made the adjustment and reaped the rewards.

Times have changed.
Let go of the past.
There is a shortage of families that can AFFORD to live on 40k.

[SemperFly]

Aircraft said:
If you want to understand my definition of "value", just think of a loved one, for example. Ask yourself how much you value them; then ask yourself how much you pay them.
Oh aircraft you are so silly. We are not talking about a loving spousal relationship we are talking about an employee/employer relationship and you know it. Unless you are trying to say REX looooooves its pilots.

And we all know that if you love somebody that way, you will do almost anything to keep them around. That doesn't seem to be the case though does it?

[teggun]

Hi 43 inches,

I think you will find that unless Qantaslink pilots receive a proper form of career progression into mainline, a similiar situation to what is happening at Rex will occur.

At the moment Qantaslink has had pretty close to a 100% success rate at Virgin interviews and the guys are applying there rather than mainline, just due to the lack of bullsh!t you have to go through at Virgin.

[Jamair]

Rex bleating about 'Poaching'.....what, exactly, were THEY doing on their recent 'round the country 'Recruiting' drive, if not 'Poaching' from GA operators at those locations?:rolleyes:

One mans 'Recruiting' is another mans 'Poaching' I guess.:=

$40K for a Saab FO?:eek: Strewth! Gotta be worth more than that! You can get more than that driving a piston twin!:oh: (and we are hiring at the moment too.......:E)

[SIUYA]

43Inches

Embraer suggest the E170 needs 60% load factor in typical operations, obviously this will depend on ticket price compared to cost of operation.

True! I had a look at the proposed timetable for the Albury - Sydney route, and for the two trips a day it works out that Virgin will need to attract (about) 40 new/existing passengers per day on each of the services, doesn't it?

I can't see Virgin attracting of the existing morning business traveller market on the SYD-ABX and ABX-SYD legs, because it's proposed morning flight, which runs SYD-ABX-SYD, is too late for your usual 'day trip' business traveller.

But I can see Virgin attracting a lot of holiday travellers from the region, particularly those who are travelling by air to destinations beyond Sydney, eg., Gold Coast.

Whatever happens, travellers to/from places like Albury WILL benefit in the short-term from the increased competition. Let's just hope it continues!

[galdian]

KRUSTY 34
I view you as nothing other that an individual who can see the impending trainwreck and carnage to follow - and wonder why none of the "managers" are able to see it.
Also strange the major shareholders are content to accept the bull**** propogated by management as to why their investment, therefore their $$$, are going backwards; and for some reason I believed the investors actually had some nouse - silly me!

On a different note - :) - you say two C&T over the age of 50 are off to VB; I ASSUME to DEC JungleJet (or very short time RHS???)

Pass-A-Frozo
After so many of your rather blunt (nay: bludgeoning) posts on a number of topics we now find out that you ("the customer") will work your day around what the business ("the service provided") is willing to provide, and when.
At the very least a totally unexpected revelation! :ok:

[apache]

Galdian... there was a time when moving from SF340 capt to B737 (or similar ie e170)F/O was a Huge pay drop. Alas, nowadays, it is not so. With overtime offered at the likes of VB and JQ, it is now a big pay JUMP!!!
B737 F/O an A320 F/O earning 84500 pa BEFORE o/t and allownces, vs 84544 for a 10th year capt at REX... well, you tell me! AND, these guys flying the jets get OVERTIME!!!!!!!

E170/190 F/Os can't be on too much less after overtime!

Check and trainers at rex??? well, OK, 84544 plus 20%... plus DTA prolly equals close to 120k.... take away the fact that they are away from home nearly 5 nights a weeekSTRAIGHT, every week, and that 120k don't look so good.

money talks

[galdian]

Hi Apache

Thanks for the figures - will admit I am not up to date, based on what you say even moving onto the 73 as F/O is pretty much a no brainer.

Things really do not bode well for REX (and any other operators who do not have some sort of a progression scheme with someone in place.)
So: will REX now be smart enough to approach VB to organise some sort of "career advancement" deal??
Is the situation so tough VB could, in the short term, tell REX to "f**k off, we don't need you??"
And the cadets - WHEN they are let loose when could they be upgraded?? 2 years?? 3 years?? never??
Will REX still be around TO upgrade them??

Finally a small nugget of insight for REX management: no matter how tightly you think you have bonded/tied down employees IF things are moving and IF people think they are being screwed over THEY WILL FIND A WAY OUT! :ok:

"But that's not what our lawyers say!!" response from Management 101 :ugh:

Just a thought from the course: Management 102.
PS: course "101", although excellent in its own way, being relevant to the days before computers, colour TV and the miniskirt, is probably no longer applicable to your present conundrum (or nightmare??:E)

[flying-spike]

Wake up and smell the bull****, Krusty is not just knocking Rex for the sake of it. If you had lived long enough to know you would realise that if you stay with an organisation long enough and put heart an soul in to help make it a success you get pretty peeved when new management comes along and through their own short-sightedness run it into the ground. He like many of their pilots have had enough of the way it is being run into the ground. Some leave to better conditions, some stay and battle on.(Don't mean to fight your battles Krusty but this self-opinionated clown is getting up my nose).......

[aircraft]

SemperFly,
I am astonished that you are having so much difficulty with the meaning of the word "value". You should throw out that dictionary you quoted from as it goes nowhere near giving the full range of meanings (my dictionary gives 13 different meanings). Your meanings included only monetary and material worth values, but everybody will tell you that people (or objects) can be valued in intangible ways (e.g importance is one such intangible measure of value).

The most important thing about the meaning of "value" is that it does not have to involve money. And, there is no meaning that is dependent on the relationship between the parties (or objects) involved - this means that a company may value an employee exactly the same way that one spouse values another.

Consider a pilot that gives his services voluntarily to Angelflight for example. Under your definition, his value to Angelflight is zero because he does not receive payment. Of course, Angelflight would actually consider his value to be considerable.

Yes, there are some meanings that strictly relate to money and material worth, but when it comes to the employer/employee relationship, each and every employee has a value that is completely separate from the monetary value represented by that employee's salary. One line pilot, on the exact same salary as another, for example, may be valued much more highly (or lowly) than the other.

apache, I hope I have finally made this clear. I thought the first example I gave (regarding a loved one) made it clear as that example showed that money does not have to be involved. Perhaps the better example is that of the volunteer, who despite receiving no payment, does an outstanding job and is highly valued by his company (he may even be more highly valued than some paid employees).

Getting back to the two departing check and trainers: They would have been considered to be extremely valuable by REX - the current circumstances absolutely guarantee that. So, the statement by KRUSTY 34 that "Virgin can obviously see the value of these people" (implying that REX can't) reveals just how ignorant that poster is.

Again I must ask how it is that REX are "not treating their people properly". They haven't provided a crew bus for transfers at Sydney, from what I can gather, but is that all? Mr Hat didn't want to answer this question as he felt he would be betraying somebody else's confidence, but surely somebody else, behind the cloak of anonymity, can spill the beans? KRUSTY 34, let's hear it.

galdian said:
... can see the impending trainwreck and carnage to follow - and wonder why none of the "managers" are able to see it.The management know more about it than anybody. They wouldn't be instituting the cadet program if they didn't.

Also strange the major shareholders are content to accept the bull**** propogated by management as to why their investment, therefore their $$$, are going backwards; and for some reason I believed the investors actually had some nouse - silly me!Yes, silly you - the shareholders have considerable nouse, and you would most probably find they have confidence in the management. Tell me, do you think everybody in the world is a complete moron, or just the REX management and shareholders?

[Zhaadum]

So bored with these economic morons spouting theory out their ass (aircraft et al). History will judge the Singaporean idiots that rule Rex.

Z. :ugh:

[apache]

Again, Aircraft, you have proved yourself to be a moron. We are NOT talking about "a loved ones value"or one who does volunteer work. We are talking about how EMPLOYERS value their EMPLOYEES!!!!
Your example of a loved one does nothing to illustrate an employees value.

[SIUYA]

Pass-A-Frozo

When I travel on business I look at the flight times and book the meeting to suit when I can travel.

However my current job has me being the one that sets the terms of any meeting I must travel to. It's a problem if you are the one having to accept the terms of a meeting.

Geez PAF, with those sort of 'it's my way or the highway' attitudes, you actually get given the opportunity to travel on business then? :8

[aircraft]

apache:
We are NOT talking about "a loved ones value"or one who does volunteer work. We are talking about how EMPLOYERS value their EMPLOYEES!!!!
Your example of a loved one does nothing to illustrate an employees value.
Amazing, absolutely amazing. I am now beginning to believe that some here genuinely lack the intelligence to understand this simple concept! Have you guys actually tried thinking about this for yourselves?

So much for thinking I had made it crystal clear! One last go at it now:

Leave aside the strictly monetary meanings of value that apply in the case of the employer/employee relationship - I know there are "value" meanings that apply that are based on the exact monetary amounts involved but ignore those meanings as I have never referred to those particular meanings.

The "value" I have been referring to all along is exactly the same value that occurs in a loving relationship! The process is exactly the same, the manifestation exactly the same and the end result exactly the same.

The feelings are not of love, obviously - but we are not talking about "feelings" and never have been.

Tthe example of the volunteer should have made it really, really clear that the worker can be highly valued even though they are paid nothing. So it should follow from that (to someone with moderate intelligence, anyway), that the amount of monetary payment directed at that worker has absolutely no bearing on the value they are held in by the company.

So, as per the case of the volunteer - the value the check and trainers were held in by the company was much higher than that reflected by the monetary amounts involved!

I will not be spending any more time on this matter.

[galdian]

aircraft
History will show how vicious a cycle it is - start cancelling flights whilst your opposition runs pretty much to normal, you get a reputation for cancelling flights, people start factoring in your perceived "unreliability" and off you go on the slippery slide.
I always thought aircraft not flying were losing you money; no pilots, no fly, no income. Maybe you have a new economic rational regarding how beneficial it is for aircraft to be sitting on the ground.

REX owners/management the only morons?? Indeed not, a certain previous situation regarding ANZ buying 100% of Ansett does spring to mind however we won't go there :E suffice to say the management should not be regarded as pin up boys for management (unless their pictures are on a dart board!)

And the cadets - still need suitable experienced pilots to train them.

The whole thing is a business/political play to (maybe) shed a few routes, primarily though to get the government to pay REX by either subsidising the cadet scheme or allowing foreign pilots in thereby keeping wages low.

I have no problems with REX playing games; I have a great deal of difficulty when what REX says is taken as gospel when there's a fair amount of bull**** mixed in and it appears no individual or organisation has the media outlet, or will, to challenge their crap. :mad:

[Boney]

Dear Mr Bank Manager

I have 2 kids, live in Sydney and make 49K a year and want to borrow 300K to buy a 1 bedroom dog box to house my family. I know I still owe you 40K for my flying training but hope you will consider this application as I am really "valued" by my employer.

Bank Manager laughing says - I can see by the money they pay you that you are indeed valued. Now get out of my office and stop wasting my time.

Aircraft, when you get past your early 20's, you will understand that money talks and bull$hit walks.

That's how management think and because the return on our investment leaves much to be desired, that is also how us regional FO's think.

After all, business is business, surely you would understand that?????

[Boney]

Sorry, must have doubled clicked

[aircraft]

Dear Mr Boney,

Whilst it pleases me that you are valued by your employer, I regret to advise that it is the level of salary that primarily determines the success or otherwise of your loan application, and in your case, this level of income would be considered insufficient for a loan of this magnitude.

Have you considered supplementing your income or obtaining more favourable employment elsewhere?

Warmest regards,
Mr Bank Manager

[43Inches]

REX may have some method in their madness,

Could it be possible that the company has foreseen an economic crash approaching. The combined effects of drought, rate hikes and oil prices slowing down the global need for resources all draining the populations ability to afford travel.

What if the worst case economic scenario was to be played out over the next few years?

Airlines that depend on leisure travelers and mining contracts may find themselves struggling for loads. Many operators who have chosen to expand with financial burdens may be forced to severely cut back, especially if they have traded in their smaller fleets for high capacity aircraft, or have challenged themselves to new non-traditional markets

From a financial survivability point of view REX is perfectly positioned for that scenario, of course, thats if they dont loose all their staff in the interim.

Only a different point of view, not one I particularly believe in.

[SIUYA]

aircraft

Post #66

I will not be spending any more time on this matter.

Yet you're back at it with post #70.

Hmmmm! That 'threat' didn't last for long, did it?:ugh:

[boardpig]

Mr Aircraft,

Despite all nonsense and explanations and whatever else you think your posts are trying to achieve, you know what is really trying to be said here. This is a serious situation for Rex and your posts are nothing but self serving and a distraction if anything. Bear a thought for the employees involved here, for them, this is real. Try to understand the situation is NOT about you.
If you are TRYING to promote reactions, you are doing well, but your writings might be better suited to the Sydney morning Herald's feed back section.

:confused:

[apache]

Aircraft, I take it from your posts that you would be quite happy to work for less as long as you get a valentines day card from your boss eery year saying "I love you. Please don't ask for more moeny, because I find you a VALUED employee"

and your quote :
Whilst it pleases me that you are valued by your employer, I regret to advise that it is the level of salary that primarily determines the success or otherwise of your loan application, and in your case, this level of income would be considered insufficient for a loan of this magnitude.

Have you considered supplementing your income or obtaining more favourable employment elsewhere?


emphasises exactly the point of why people are leaving.

BECAUSE management do not get all warm and fuzzy to every employee and say... gee you are a valued member of our team; the ONLY way we can judge our VALUE to our employer is by remuneration.

Don't know about your situation, but pi$$ poor wages and a bucket full of love will NOT pay my mortgage!

[Mr. Hat]

Have you considered supplementing your income or obtaining more favourable employment elsewhere?

Dear Mr Bank Manager, I've just been accepted into XYZ airline and my base salary is now 80k per annum.......


My point exactly.

[The Kavorka]

Please everyone lets not be too hard on AIRCRAFT..

He was probably punched up everyday at school, had/has no mates and the closest he has got to relations with the opposite sex is his computer!!

[XRlent100]

43 Inches and Dr Oakford,

If REX had a jittery feeling about the economy do you think they would have just gone out and replaced all their SAABS with the 340+ Model at a considerable cost??

[43Inches]

340B+ aircraft are leased and I would think that the cost involved in procuring these aircraft is not much greater than current arrangment with the rest of their fleet.

The SF340 is actually very cheap to purchase/lease.

$2-3 million a unit compared to $20-30 million per dash or Embraer, and only carries half as many pax! 3 SAABs on a route out strip an embraer load at 1/3 the investment.

A large number of REX aircraft are owned outright.

If things get tight its easier to fill a 34 seater than a 50-100 seat aircraft.

You can park an aircraft YOU own and it costs only the interest you loose on investment, no interest to pay a lender.

Infrastructure can be sold at market property rates.

The people that will hurt are the ones in the country towns that have been employed for support roles if those services are made redundant.

The only equation that is putting rex under pressure is flight crew, which is a big one!

[aircraft]

43Inches said:
The only equation that is putting rex under pressure is flight crew, which is a big one!

That pressure being due to the share price decline, which appears to be related to the cancellations and route closures. It should be noted that these won't necessarily have a negative impact on the bottom line.

It is worth bearing in mind that REX have forecast profitable operations for the immediate future and that forecast will have taken into account the expected pilot shortages.

To REX staff that may be feeling concerned about the future of the company as a result of reading these threads, I would say to beware of making judgements based on what you read on PPrune, as there are a disproportionate number of posters whose only intent is to denigrate and cause fear and loathing.

There is much about REX to feel optimistic about.

[Icarus2001]

A wise person once told me that the salary someone receives is a reflection of how difficult they are to replace.
So using this axiom it would seem that pilot wages must rise. Aircraft you consistently ignore the point made here that $2-3 more on a ticket price would add substantially to the funds available to pay crews without causing a loss of demand due to the price hike.
It is also not just about the money. It is the way operations staff treat crews when they call them in or try to change a roster at short notice. Showing little respect or "value" for an employee is what is hurting REX not just the dollars.
I once saw a manager hand an overworked pilot a $20 gift voucher for liquorland with a sincere thank you for their efforts. Cost to the company $20, value to the company gained by good will from the pilot, much more than $20.
Crews with low morale cost more to fly aircraft than crews engaged and happy...tyre and brake wear, choosing and chasing optimum levels, pushing ATC for track shortening, all these become too hard when your crews no longer care about the company.
Aircraft in purely technical, economic text book ways, much of what you say is correct but it is the lack of context and human dynamics that lets you down. Strangely enough it is also where the management fall down. They all study MBA's and come out of university knowing the economic theory but cannot manage people because they do not understand people, all they understand is economic systems.
Management incompetence in aviation has been masked for decades by a huge supply of willing crews and a small demand. That situation is ending and so management now need to actually "manage", that is make some decisions and be smarter with how they deal with staff.
Those companies that can retain staff now will survive, the rest will struggle. Bonding for example is a way to make people stay somewhere that they would rather leave. It is a stick. Why not use a carrot? Make the place a great place to work so people DO NOT WANT to leave. Sure for some it is about dollars for others lifestyle, but for MOST it is a balance of the two.
Another example, airlines can give subload seats to staff at no cost to the company, the staff can pay the small admin or FBT costs BUT do all companies do this? NO. Why not? An otherwise empty seat sold to a staff member generates good will and costs nothing. So why is that not done?
Companies the size of REX with a moderate size staff can negotiate with suppliers deals based on their size, such as fuel cards, gym memeberships, car deals, holiday spots etc none of which cost the company anything but generate good will towards the company by staff because the staff SEE that the company does VALUE them.
Your comment above saying that REX do value their staff shows your naivety. How are staff supposed to KNOW if the comapny VALUES them? What tangible example is there? That is why MONEY becomes the currency of VALUE. More VALUE = MORE MONEY. As I say there are other ways but the gene pool of airline management is quite shallow, often the same people who would otherwise be used car salesmen. Can you NAME many avaition managers who had been awarded management awards of any type?
Keep up your posts but remember crew are people NOT economic units. Ignore this at your peril aviation managers.;)

[SIUYA]

aircraft..............

You said:

It should be noted that these [cancellations and route closures]won't necessarily have a negative impact on the bottom line.. :confused:

Why won't they? The only way that I can possibly see that would happen is if the cancellations and route closures were on already unprofitable routes. Is that what you are trying to say?

You also said:

There is much about REX to feel optimistic about.

I must be missing something here.:confused:

It seems fairly obvious that the WHO (ie., the REX pilots) are now out of the 'optimism' equation, so can you please tell us about the WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, and WHY sort of things that REX would currently feel optimistic about??

[Keg]

I still reckon that if an airline can add a 'Fuel surcharge' when the price of fuel goes up that they can add a 'pilot retention surcharge' for when they are finding it difficult to retain pilots. I reckon an extra $5 per pax as a surcharge and the money to go directly to the crew on a per sector basis would solve a lot some of the immediate problems.

[Doctor Smith]

Surcharges are merely an airlines way of shifting blame away from their own incompetence. Fuel surcharge - BLAME the oil company. Pilot Retention surcharge - BLAME the pilots. Taxes - BLAME the government.
This is the only industry that cops out. Why not just incorporate all this into a single charge, called "the total cost of the fare"?

[E&H]

Icarus 2001, Your comments are very true. I left Rex and the aviation industry after 20 years, in 2006, for the same reasons as well as the fact that in todays economy 100K is the new 50K. In other words if you are not earning 100K it is not possible to buy a house, educate your kids, have a holiday every year etc. Managers who know how to get the best out of people can do so for very little. It is unfortunate that this practice is no longer allowed under the new economics of bean counters-they are starting to reap what they sow.
Your comment about a salary being equivalent to how difficult a person is to replace is very true and well known and so the present state of affairs is of the airlines own making. A good example of how management can react in the positive is brought to mind regards Henry Ford. He erected No Smoking signs in his factory because he believed the practice was costing him money. Not long after he came across some of his men standing under the No Smoking sign and they were all lighting up cigarettes. Now in his day, he could have sacked them on the spot, however he simply lit up a cigar with them and when he had finished he handed all the men a cigar with the rider that in future they were not to smoke in his factory any more. Moral of the story was that he didn't have to replace his men, and they didn't smoke on his time any more.
The story they are peddling about the high cost of training is only part of the equation and trying to get the government to pay for training while well meaning is simply denial on the airlines part and a ploy to keep wages as low as possible. No one in their right mind is going to fork out 100K to land a job which may pay 80K in return and should you want to step up to the majors you will have to pay another 30-40K for endorsement costs.

[Keg]

Rumours suggest that QF are starting to think very seriously about having to pay for the cadetships themselves. I think the applicants to REX will drop to nil if that occurs.

[SIUYA]

aircraft...............

In post #62 you said:

the shareholders [of REX] have considerable nouse, and you would most probably find they have confidence in the management

I wonder? With four 'price-sensitive' company announcements since 04 Oct 2007, and closing share price from $2.35 on 01 Oct 2007 to $2.12 yesterday (07 Oct 2007), they'd need to have nerves of steel I'd reckon. :eek:

Source: http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/CompanyInfoSearchResults.jsp?searchBy=asxCode&allinfo=on&asxCode=REX#price

In post #80 yesterday, you concluded that the REX's recently announced flight cancellations and route closures won't necessarily have a negative impact on its bottom line, and that there:

is much about REX to fell optimistic about.

Given the decline in the REX share price over the past few weeks, I'm at a loss to understand you arrived at those conclusions. So it will be interesting to watch what 'value' the market puts on REX shares over the coming weeks, won't it?

[aircraft]

SIUYA,

Apologies for the late reply but unable to do so any earlier.

I did say that flight and route cancellations will not necessarily have a negative impact on the REX bottom line, but my wording was a bit loose in how I said this.

The route cancellations should have a negative impact on the bottom line as REX wouldn't have commenced on the route unless it was expected to give a generally positive impact. Because of crewing difficulties, however, if the continuation of a marginal route was to result in frequent enough cancellation of more lucrative flights elsewhere, then the discontinuation of the marginal route may well result in less losses (which is a positive impact on the bottom line).

Cancellations of individual flights will have the same positive effect given certain combinations of pilot unavailability and low load factor.

You also asked why I said:
There is much about REX to feel optimistic about.
I said that because:
1. The company is in a strong financial position;
2. The company has excellent management, and
3. The company is quite possibly the most "lean and mean" operator in Australia.

Some posters to these REX threads would sooner swallow broken glass than agree with me that the management is excellent, but the simple reality is that those posters seem to live in a cocoon and so wouldn't know good management if it fell on them.

Icarus2001,
... you consistently ignore the point made here that $2-3 more on a ticket price would add substantially to the funds available to pay crews without causing a loss of demand due to the price hike.I have got a really big problem with the suggestion being made here. It is made frequently in threads that relate to pilot pay increases.

The biggest and most glaring failure of this theory is that, if it were true, all airlines would have done it long ago! That aside, the calculation that yields these tiny amounts is so simplistic it cannot hope to be anything like accurate. I doubt it is possible to come up with a more simplistic calculation.

Simplicity aside, the big flaw in the calculation is that it assumes 100% load factors before and after the ticket price rise. And, the figures quoted never allow for GST and other taxes/charges that are a percentage of the total fare.

Finally, if a levy was imposed to facilitate higher pay for aircrew, how would the engineers, flight attendants and administrative staff feel about missing out on those pay rises? Some posters here seem to think that pilots are the only absolute requisite for a flight to happen, but these other personnel are equally as important.

I once saw a manager hand an overworked pilot a $20 gift voucher for liquorland with a sincere thank you for their efforts. Cost to the company $20, value to the company gained by good will from the pilot, much more than $20.The cost to the company is more than $20 - a certain, relatively small, amount of administration is required to achieve this gesture and administration does not come free. If this gesture is repeated many times daily then the administration cost ceases to be insignificant.

Crews with low morale cost more to fly aircraft than crews engaged and happy...Whilst I don't doubt some disgruntled pilots will, on occasion, allow their flight to be a little "more expensive", the fact that this practice is in contravention of the ethics of commercial pilots means that it probably occurs less frequently than thought. Would a doctor allow his patient to die because he is cranky that he didn't get a pay rise?

They all study MBA's and come out of university knowing the economic theory but cannot manage people because they do not understand people, all they understand is economic systems.This is true for some managers but cannot be true for all. Like every profession, some will be excellent, most will be average and a small amount, poor.

Why not use a carrot? Make the place a great place to work so people DO NOT WANT to leave.Great idea in theory, but in practice this can turn out to be unbelievably expensive.

An otherwise empty seat sold to a staff member generates good will and costs nothing.It does cost something. There is a not insignificant amount of administration required for this to happen.

Can you NAME many avaition managers who had been awarded management awards of any type?Jetstar won some award for management recently (within the last few months).

... crew are people NOT economic units. Ignore this at your peril aviation managers.The managers are people too, so they know all about what it is to be a person and how satisfying it can be to provide the little "human touches". Those "human touches" cost money of course, and unfortunately, the cold, harsh economic realities can sometimes make them impossible to afford.

And, they can backfire on the management - just look at how the staff tend to react when their little perks are scaled down - or removed entirely.

[Launch_code_Harry]

The managers are people too, so they know all about what it is to be a person and how satisfying it can be to provide the little "human touches"ROTFL Haha haha hahaha haha, no stop, please stop, can't breathe.....haha ha ha ha, killing me here, stop, please stop.......[Engine Failure checklist, breathe, sit on hands, breathe] Haha haha hahaha, sides hurt..... haha

Absolutely fcuking priceless, quote of the century. :D

[Casper]

Whilst I don't doubt some disgruntled pilots will, on occasion, allow their flight to be a little "more expensive", the fact that this practice is in contravention of the ethics of commercial pilots means that it probably occurs less frequently than thought. Would a doctor allow his patient to die because he is cranky that he didn't get a pay rise?
----------------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't involve "ethics" to practise an instrument approach instead of a visual one, if available. Do that on every sector and let the beancounters watch the results. After all, pilots are required to maintain recency!

[wrongwayaround]

aircraft.

you have gone beyond the realms of 'funny'

i show concern for your mental health, son

how satisfying it can be to provide the little "human touches"


huh

[Towering Q]

Would a doctor allow his patient to die because he is cranky that he didn't get a pay rise?


Try another analogy, that one is beyond ridiculous.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

The managers are people too, so they know all about what it is to be a person and how satisfying it can be to provide the little "human touches"Yep, that would have to be the funniest, most out-of-touch comment I have ever read on PPrune! It just goes to show that aircraft has absolutely no idea of reality at airlines!

aircraft, the reality is that unless staff T&C's at Rex are brought into the 21st century, then in about 12-24 months time Rex will be half it's former size, haemorrhaging cash and on the verge of either collapse or being bought out by the likes of Temasek. Australian regional aviation infrastructure in the hands of the Singaporeans? I suppose you'd argue that's a good thing becasue it's free market in action!

Another thing's for sure - they can swindle 100 young, inexperienced blokes into the "academy", or whatever it's being called, but if 100 experienced blokes simultaneously quit, then in about 2 years time there will be a highly inexperienced workforce driving these fast turboprops around. Then God help us on a dark and stormy night when it's all going to s#!t. Because that's going to be only thing left to save the day.

But that's nowhere to be seen in your textbook, is it, aircraft?

[aircraft]

Launch_code_Harry, wrongwayaround and Ron & Edna Johns,

You seem to have a problem with this statement of mine:

The managers are people too, so they know all about what it is to be a person and how satisfying it can be to provide the little "human touches"
Can each one of you come out and say that my statement is not true. Can you phrase the statement something like:

I, ..., hereby state that your statement about managers is not true.

Casper said:
It doesn't involve "ethics" to practise an instrument approach instead of a visual one, if available. Do that on every sector and let the beancounters watch the results.Has it occurred to you that doing this sort of thing is, in effect, stealing from the company? If it hasn't, I suggest you think about it for a while - ask yourself how doing this is different from a retailer worker, for example, walking past the cash register, noticing the drawer open and taking $100 out and pocketing it.

If the idea of stealing doesn't come so easily, then maybe try extortion.

[Boney]

Stealing??? - you are so naive.

It took me 7 years, 3,000TT and a Regional Airline to find a company that actually pays superannuation.

But that's illegal I hear you say. So is upskirting girls with a camera but people still do it.

Ring the tax dept. - yeah right, good luck.

I wonder what the percentage is of GA companies in this country that pay super. 30, 40, 50%? It will be on ya payslip every fortnight but never turns up in ya account.

But doing an ILS in visual conditions. That's stealing. I don't know how I would sleep at night?

[nike]

Gidday Aircraft,

I thought you made some well argued points, certainly your posts are well wrtten for a stated 23 year old.

However, the statement If the idea of stealing doesn't come so easily, then maybe try extortion. in the context given, regarding opting for a conservative approach is where I must assume you have no operations experience whatsoever.

None, zero, a duck.

It's difficult to debate ethics and morality when you use throw away lines yourself, its brings all sorts of words into the mix. Words like hypocrisy amongst others.

[Defenestrator]

Aircraft,
It's becoming very apparent that you have very little idea of what you are talking about. In a perfect world there would be a place for your submissions but the world is not perfect, and as such your arguments hold very little water.
Has it occurred to you that doing this sort of thing is, in effect, stealing from the company? If it hasn't, I suggest you think about it for a while - ask yourself how doing this is different from a retailer worker, for example, walking past the cash register, noticing the drawer open and taking $100 out and pocketing it.

Analogy's like the one above not only highlight your lack of industry knowledge, but scream of your lack of commercial experience altogether.
There are some very learned posters on this thread. You'd do well to listen a little more closely and perhaps reserve your position until you have gained some more insight into how aviation actually works. It's a unique industry. Not one that can be learned from a text book.
Regards
D ;)

[aircraft]

But doing an ILS in visual conditions. That's stealing. I don't know how I would sleep at night?

I wouldn't have thought it necessary to spell out that I am not talking about approaches in VMC for legitimate purposes (e.g currency).

I am referring purely to the illegitimate purposes that were alluded to by Casper at post #90.

Perhaps I do need to spell that out.

[Launch_code_Harry]

I, ..., hereby state that your statement about managers is not true.I don't have to justify myself to someone like you with some legalistic certification.
I am however, willing to be publicly pilloried by others on this forum who believe your assertion to be true.

[aircraft]

Launch_code_Harry,
... who believe your assertion to be true.

How can it possibly not be true?

[Keg]

Aircraft is a troll. I can't believe that people keep engaging with him/her! :confused: :ugh: :mad:

[nike]

keg, fair cop. the posts did have that ring about them.

[apache]

a certain, relatively small, amount of administration is required to achieve this gesture and administration does not come free

neither do pilots, yet some companies think that they SHOULD work for free! or extend - ever heard of unpaid overtime ?

I suppose the simple solution, and legal, of WORK TO RULE is just too ridiculous to contemplate? Unfortunately, the few REX pilots I know, are too conscientious to deliberately delay a flight to make a point. They are all instilled with a deep sense of professionalism, where "selling time, safely" is the ethos. They also realise that management will ALWAYS shift the lame back to them in the end, and the fact that THEY are the ones who have to deal with the public face to face makes it all the harder. in the end, the FACE of aviation - the pilot- will ALWAYS be the bad guy when management refuse to accept that times have changed, and that htye need to change as well.

[bizzybody]

Can you stop with the slanging match with Aircraft. He is just making his point and you guys are making your point. Fair enough points made. You are never going to agree with him and he is never going to agree with you.

reverting to insults about mental health are just not funny

Maybe the Mods should start limiting the threads with personal attacks on them.

I think both sides are making good points

Bizz

[aircraft]

Ron & Edna Johns said:
... the reality is that unless staff T&C's at Rex are brought into the 21st century ...
Even if REX had upped their salaries by $20K six months ago, they would still be in the same position they are today (regarding pilot shortages).

[Under Dog]

Where's your proof of that "Aircraft"?

Regards The Dog

[aircraft]

Where's your proof of that "Aircraft"?
With something that obvious, you don't need proof.

A $20K salary rise would have been nowhere near enough to cause the REX pilots to turn down the offers from the major airlines.

It may almost have caused them to think twice about leaving, but that is all that increase would have achieved.

And a $20K increase, by the way, is way beyond what REX can afford. I hope this brings some perspective to this issue.

[Ralph the Bong]

The world is flat...obviously!

[SmokingHole]

Can' believe you all let this troll wind you up so badly.

His relentless mating call is spent all over these threads. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_15_7.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYYYAU)

[neville_nobody]

A $20K salary rise would have been nowhere near enough to cause the REX pilots to turn down the offers from the major airlines

Nope I reckon you're wrong. There are people there who would happily stay for an extra 20G.

Rex are at the point where either they do something about retention or they close the doors. The fact that it has come to that doesn't reflect very well on what is a public company.

[SIUYA]

neville_nobody...............

Rex are at the point where either they do something about retention or they close the doors :D

I reckon you're spot-on! The only place that REX looks like it's going at the moment stage is down I'm afraid.

The REX closing share price went from from $2.35 on 01 Oct 2007 to $2.12 on 07 Oct 2007, and this morning's latest ASX closing price for REX is $2.06.

Source: http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/CompanyInfoSearchResults.jsp?searchBy=asxCode&allinfo=on&asxCode=REX#price

Hardly the sort of performance to inspire shareholder confidence in REX's supposed 'excellent' management I'd have thought.:eek:

Personally I think it will be a great shame if REX closes it's doors, but that's the price that the company's going to pay if management don't get off their ar5es and do something quick smart pronto and offer REX pilots a better financial return for their skills.

[Dave Incognito]

20K would easily stop a lot of people leaving. At the moment the alarming fact is that many of those leaving are senior captains (i.e. not easily replaced). More than a few are off to fly turbo props at other regional operators who are paying a lot closer to the market rate...

[aircraft]

There are people there who would happily stay for an extra 20G.
Yes, correction required on my part. There probably would be 1 or 2 that would stay on - but no more.

Rex are at the point where either they do something about retention or they close the doors.
Why would they be contemplating closing the doors when they are profitable and expect to remain so for the forseeable future?

The REX closing share price went from from $2.35 on 01 Oct 2007 to $2.12 on 07 Oct 2007, and this morning's latest ASX closing price for REX is $2.06.I wouldn't be getting too excited about the share price. It was about $2.14 in mid August, then made a steady rise up to about $2.75 in early October.

[Oldmate]

When fuel gets expensive they are happy to introduce a fuel levy - why not a pilot levy. My simple maths:
Captain $200,000pa
F/O$120,000pa - enough to entice pilots to stay, hell i'd look at it.
Both work 18 days a month, so 216 days a year. Move about 100 pax a day (?) 21,600 pax a year. Divide $320,000 by 21,600 pax - $15 per ticket should cover the entire wage bill.

[SIUYA]

Nope................if I was an investor in REX, which I'm not, then I'm certainly wouldn't be getting too excited about the REX share price.

However, what I would be getting pretty excited about is the announcement that the REX Managing Director has just given notice of his resignation and is now serving a 4-week notice period before he goes.

Source: http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/CompanyInfoSearchResults.jsp?searchBy=asxCode&allinfo=on&asxCode=REX#chart

REGIONAL EXPRESS HOLDINGS LIMITED announcements

12/11/2007 Rex Discloses Retirement of its Managing Director

However, despite the notice, REX don't regard it as being 'price sensitive'. I wonder if the market will share its sentiments? :eek:

[Dave Incognito]

There probably would be 1 or 2 that would stay on - but no more.

Check the actual numbers of pilots who have moved over to alliance to fly turbo props and i think you'll find it's a bit of an eye opener. Not everyone leaves to fly a jet. Many are leaving now because at the end of the day you work to earn money, and there are lots of other companies putting a lot more money in your bank for doing essentially the same job...

[Guptar]

Aircraft and his adversaries are half right. While a 20k increase is justified for the pilots, and yes, it would still not stop those that want to fly jets leaving, and lets face it, you simply cannot generate the revenue from 36 seats to pay comparable to an aircraft with 400 seats.

But.........there are many guys who for their own reasons, a regional airline suits them down to the ground and are not looking to go anywhere else. There are many in such situation. The fact that these guys are leaving is the real concern. But to simply put it down to the salary is lookign at it simplistically. Lifestyle, home every night or close to, the working environment often means more than the salry. In most studies, money is number 5 on this list, first is usually personal fulfilment and sense of being valued by the company. In short, if people love comming to work, then money or lack of is not so important.

However, while there is the continuing Kendal/Hazo bitch fight happening within the company, un realistic standards being imposed(FFS the SAAB is not a space shuttle). I'm told by somoene who knows just a little about the SAAB(said tongue in cheek) that SAAB's philosophy was there should be no recal items......but how many do the Rex guys have to memorise?

Lastly there is a poisonous atmosphere that is coming from certain C & T ers, any sim ride, line check is just a way for them to get rid of someone, some of these characters it seems, take pleasure in ruining someone elses life.

Rex can never pay that to match Virgin, QF, etc etc, so it has to make up in life style and more eimportantly, employes enjoying thewir work, not hating comming to work as is the case now.

[SIUYA]

Oh dear................

REX closing price today is now down $2.00. That's a $0.75 loss per share since it's

steady rise up to about $2.75 in early October (Refer post #113)


Lowest traded price for REX shares today was $1.97. So, another 3.85% drop in REX shares today, making a total of about a 37.5% theoretical loss on an 'investment' in REX shares in just over a month. OUCH! :eek:

Obviously not every REX shareholder bought their shares at $2.75. However, looking at the ASX REX share price graph there wouldn't be too many (actually, any??) REX shareholders who have made a profit on their investment.

However, according to the same post (#113), apparently we shouldn't be getting 'too excited about the [REX] share price.'

Wonder where it will go tomorrow? :confused: