HUD footage from Macchi crash

[evilroy]

Apologies if this has been asked for before, but I was told there was the HUD footage from a RNZAF MB-339 crash available. The aircraft was the one that suffered some type of flameout, got a relight, then had another flameout during its approach. Both crew ejected and the aircraft was later recovered. The backseater was a maintenance fellow who got more than he bargained for. I'm told the pilot (newly minted) was particularly calm under pressure.

[gsf]

The RNZAF did not lose a Macchi under those circumstances.
Howerever, there was video of what, IIRC, was a Hawk accident in Canada that fits your description.

[ScottyDoo]

Hawk bird-strike. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTtIz2SanZA)

An instructor and a student. I dare say the aircraft was not "recovered"...

[currawong]

evilroy refers to Macchi NZ6465, ditched near Kaitaia 13 Oct 93.

The circumstances he describes are accurate.

Airframe was recovered to Ohakea.

[Runaway Gun]

Not quite as described, engine was not re-lit, did not even begin to make an approach. Runway FOD the likely cause. Important bit was the guys getting out.

[hadenuff]

Evilroy, yes there is footage of this incident. The HUD tape was recovered from the frame which made a pilotless belly landing in a swamp after the crew ejected. The aircraft (NZ6465) was recovered but subsequently written off. Have never seen the footage available in the public domain though.

[evilroy]

Thanks for that Hadenuff.

[Cloud Basher]

Footage is definitely available. I have seen it and also had the pleasure of speaking with the pilot of the Macchi about 6 months or so after he had ejected, at the bar at WLM (just after I had gone for my first Macchi Flight myself).

The pilot I believe got a fair bollocking for leaving the decision to eject so late, in fact it was only a couple of hundred feet, again if my memory serves. Ground crew member had (IIRC) a broken back, but subsequently recovered. The story I was told was that they both started walking out of the swamp carrying their chutes and once the rescue crew arrived they were told to sit down and drop their chutes. X-rays revealed the broken back.

Pilot obviously was very cool relating this story but there was a bunch of confusion that showed on the tape and this was one of the reasons it was left so late. I believe I saw it as part of a human factors course I was studying previously.

Cheers
CB

[1224]

I hear that the engineer was too tall for the seat, and thus how he broke his back?? Some RAAF medic told this to me to ease my pain of being to tall to fly in the ADF. No idea if that is true or not, does the macchi seat go through the canopy?

[kiwi chick]

I watched the video at an Airwoman's Rally held at Ohakea, and had running commentary from RNZAF staff - so I guess this is a close to the horses's mouth... This is what was explained to us:

The guy was tall. There is a check usually done after the canopy has shut, where the pilot & crew make their hand into a fist, and run their hand between their head and the canopy, to ensure clearance. This ensures that their heads are below the level of the of the ejection seat. This check for some reason was not carried out, and the pax's head was nearly touching the canopy.

When they ejected, it was his head (or helmet) that broke the canopy, instead of the top of the ejection seat as designed. Therefore the impact was taken by his spine via his skull, causing the injuries he sustained.

Apparantly he was also an avid sportsman, but is no longer able to play due to the injuries.

The video was absolutely amazing to watch... astounding... the calmness of the pilot (considering!!) and the help given to him by another macchi pilot, are again, the reasons why I hold the training and attitude of the RNAZF in such high regard. :D :D

Anyone feel free to correct anything I may have got wrong. :O

Kiwi Chick :ok:

[komac2]

just abit of general info from the kiwi aircraft images macchi history page probably doesn't add anymore info to the thread but may be interest.

One aircraft was lost in service. NZ6465 crashed in the Awanui Estuary on the Rangaunu harbour near Kaitaia on October 13, 1993. PO C.J. Foster and LAC S.E. Gyde made a low level ejection after experiencing severe vibration and loss of thrust following foreign object injestion. This was the RNZAF's first non-aircrew ejection. Both ejected safely but sustained back injuries, landing in mangroves and mud. The aircraft was subsequently retrieved, and after being classified unrepairable was passed to the RNZAF museum. Several aircraft Have been involved in landing incidents resulting in damage. NZ6467 being the first on on April 15, 1992 when the undercarriage was retracted at too low a speed during a touch and go at Ohakea, which resulted in a belly landing. NZ6460 was next when it made an emergency landing on its belly on November 28, 1994 after FOD ingestion resulted in an engine failure as the aircraft became airborne. The aircraft was returned to Italy for factory repair and after two years it was back in service in 1997. NZ6468 was the most recent on February 9, 2000. In other incidents, NZ6477 made an emergency landing at Hamilton in April 1999 after a birdstrike destroyed much of the canopy and damaged an ejection seat. Another incident occurred in June 1999 when 100 rounds of 12.7mm ammunition were accidental discharged from a gunpack on the ground at Ohakea, while an aircraft was being prepared for an exercise. The RNZAF investigation determined this result from a safety pin being inserted upside down - something not previously thought possible, and requiring design changes to correct. NZ6463 made a precautionary landing at Hastings on Mar 26 2001. The aircraft had been 40nm south of Napier when low fuel was indicated. The aircraft returned to Ohakea the following day.

[evilroy]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. If the footage is available anywhere, I'd appreciate being able to see it.

If it is available only within Defence, please send me a PM with details.

[Runaway Gun]

PM sent a few days ago...

[nike]

any chance its viewable by us 'also-rans'?

[XRNZAF]

Contrary to popular belief I can't help at all tracking down the video, but I would be keen for a look if it surfaces.... :}

I've heard alot about this incident so seing the footage would be quite interesting. If I remember correctly 14 sqn were actually on exercise (falcons roost?) in my home town of Whangarei when it happened.

[Miatamad]

Just stumbled across this while browsing and thought I would correct a few in-accuracies.....

@ kiwi chick..the canopy clearance check was something that was inte=roduced AFTER this incident as a procedure. A couple of the aircrew may have done it previously but it was not recognised or suggested as part of the dispatch procedure.

@ cloud basher...walking out was not exactly accurate as the engineer initially started to walk out but had to stop walking when he lost all feeling in his legs.

There are also rumours about the rear seat being adjusted for "the best view" which are untrue as the rear seat pax was positioned to be able to read the symbology on the HUD.

For those wondering what makes me think I'm an expert who can correct these things...I was the engineer :O

[greybeard]

Well done that man

:ok:

[codenamejames]

Great read! Pretty ballsy to walk out after an ejection.
Miatamad so did you get a Martin Baker tie for your efforts?

[Miatamad]

MB tie and tie pin as well as invite to tour the factory and have a cup of tea (if I ever make it over there)

also got the seat handle nicely mounted - after I paid the gunnies a keg of beer ;-)

[Sqwark2000]

Best thread of the year..... :ok:

Nothing like reading a factual, fully substantiated thread on a Rumour Network.

Bravo! Miatamad! :D :D

[OhForSure]

Good on you Miatamad! :ok:

[Trojan1981]

Great thread! It would be even better with the footage. Ahhhh...I miss flying with the RNZAF.

Long time no see Kiwi Chick, welcome back!

[Trojan1981]

So it was, doh!

[Keg]

So how are you these days Miatamad? Any ongoing issues from the ejection or is it all good?

[SpazSinbad]

Hope you go well Miatamad. :D BZ (Navy Slang for 'Well Done')

[chute packer]

Video has surfaced on you tube.
Actual ejection is after the 5 minute mark

RNZAF MB-339CB Ejection HUD Tape - YouTube

[slackie]

Wonder how long that will last until it gets taken down??

Great result in the end though... all lived to tell the tail apart from Falcon20 of course!

Eject eject eject.... oh wait Steve don't eject yet!! Man I think I may have been gone after he said the first "eject"!!!

[forever flying]

What an incredible video, you can sure feel how 'Steve' must have felt when the pilot started saying "we're unable to maintain height"...

[Bevan666]

Amazing video.

Eject eject eject.... oh wait Steve don't eject yet!! Man I think I may have been gone after he said the first "eject"!!!


I bet if I was there he would have been talking to himself at the second 'eject'.

[Checkboard]

Eject eject eject.... oh wait Steve don't eject yet!! Man I think I may have been gone after he said the first "eject"!!!
I don't hear that line anywhere in the vid. :confused: I make it:


Yeah

Ah we're goin alright.

You want to try and just to ... turn us to the right a little?

Right, around, keep it commin round ..

OK keep commin, keep commin around

Here it goes that there it goes .. all flat, all flat, all flat and then just about NOW there's a hill there, little hill there

yeah
- aim at that hill,

Fly me to that hill.

Fills me with the utmost in confidence [Obviously a big BANG here - not heard on the intercom tape :eek:]
FCUKIN HELL - I HAVE CONTROL I HAVE CONTROL

JESUS CHRIST STEVE

This is not good

No, we're right, we're right.

...

OK Steve, we've got a severe engine vibration, mate.

Uh huh :ooh:

OK Things are not looking good

Uh huh :ooh:

"Kaitaia traffic, MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY Falcon two zero, severe engine vibration t ... hidden through uh Kaitaia"

OK RPM, (Pitch RPT?)

OK Steve whe.. where abouts are ya?

About, uh about 10 miles north of Kaitaia, Church.

North of Kaitaia, OK I've got a Kaitaia plate out, elevation of 270 feet, NDB's "KT" 2..3..8

*mutter* 2..3..8

[Morse code "Kilo Tango" begins]

Fcukin Hell, What is that NOISE?

Are you with me Steve?

Yeah, I'm Just ****tin' myself, quite quietly :cool:
What are the symptoms first?
Say again Church?
Go ahead the symptoms?

OK RPM stood at uh 78%, sorry 68%, I've got a severe rumbling noise. I can feel the vibration through the whole aircraft - it's an extremely loud grumbling roaring sort of noise.

Roger that, OK maintain absolute or not?

Affirmative but, when I put on more power the noise gets worse and worse

Roger leave it at a minimum power setting, 85% is probably the best for er non vibes. We'll just see if you can get to [hurs] Kaitaia with what you've got at the moment

Affirm Church. Slowing down drastically but I'm actually not be able to holdmaintain maintain height

OK Whereabouts are you now?

OK Steve just north of Kaitaia ah ... north west of Kaitaia

West of Kaitaia, Right were comming down 90 mile beach. Probably about 10 miles to the north, 250 feet

OK I'm inland of the coast

...

All right there, Steve?

Yeah, I'm just going to shut up and let you fly the plane, OK :hmm:
All right

Oh RPM is good

Anything changes cosmo, I'll tell you .... You just keep flying. :cool:

OK Church I can't get any more RPM, I've only got 72%

I'm slowing down, I'm unable to maintain height

Roger where are you now?

Just north of Kaitaia

Understood

[Alarm]

Now below 100 feet

Right, I'm 12 miles to the north of Kaitaia

OK now West of Kaitaia, north west of Kaitaia.

OK Church I'm going down, the jet is not going to go, I'm ejecting ejecting

I'd like to [dum] eject seats
In position.
Righto Steve, that understood

EJECTING EJECTING NOW [This comment on the radio, rather than a command to eject, I would think]

OK Steve? On command I WANT YOU TO EJECT, MATE? YOU READY WITH ME?

OK, GET READY
EJECT EJECT NOW!

[forever flying]

Eject eject eject.... oh wait Steve don't eject yet!! Man I think I may have been gone after he said the first "eject"!!!

Sounds like that between 5:05 and 5:08

[Checkboard]

That's this bit:

I'd like to [dum] eject seats
In position.
Righto Steve, that understood

The "In position" comment is said at the same time as the sentence above it (so they overlay each other) - but it's not an eject command, as well as I can hear.

should of
should have - sorry, that's a real bugbear of mine!

[Runaway Gun]

Mr Formerly Known As A380 Driver says: The velocity vector in the HUD was never showing he was going to make the field. He should of ejected earlier.

Yes we know that now, as does the driver, however having been in a rather stressful pre-ejection position myself, one can be a little reluctant and you start to think "what have I missed?" and you can hope things improve.

In my case, I did miss something, it was rectified, and I landed just fine (albeit with brown striped jocks).

Force's case was a great lesson for us who followed him, however who's to say that I wouldn't have done the same thing if I hadn't learnt from his accident?

[slackie]

Checkboard... jeez man, don't you have anything better to do??
Listen again... what is "Ahhh don't eject, Steve, don't eject" at 5:07.
I never intended to offer an transcript, listened only once, and recalled what I "heard".

[Falling Leaf]

The velocity vector in the HUD was never showing he was going to make the field. He should of ejected earlier.

With hindsight - yes. But let's not arm chair quarter back too much! The guy was straight of pilot course, and this was pretty much a BRAND NEW jet. I was on the Board of Inquiry, and wrote that the ejection decision had been made at the last possible minute, but you have to have sympathy for why the guy hung in their until the last possible moment.

I'm also not convinced by some of the remarks of posters here saying they would have been gone on the first mention of the E word. An ejection is a very violent process, physical injury is to be expected. Big D for anyone!

For information, the jet was very intact thanks to its muddy, slow speed impact. Sat outside the Ohakea Museum for years.

[slackie]

I'm also not convinced by some of the remarks of posters here saying they would have been gone on the first mention of the E word. An ejection is a very violent process, physical injury is to be expected. Big D for anyone!
Yeah... fair call!! Easy to be brave sitting in a nice comfy airchair with the laptop on your knee!

[Checkboard]

what is "Ahhh don't eject, Steve, don't eject" at 5:07.

Yep, I'll buy that.

[Biggles78]

Guess that goes to show that Steve DOESN'T have a premature ejection problem. :ok:

[Trevor the lover]

ex 380

Stupid input from you.

Force did a tremendous job of staying calm and handling the situation to the best of his limited experience at the time.

When you are in that situation, lets see how you go. Would have frightened the **** out of me.

Easy as hell to ne a Monday quarterback.

[flash2sqn]

Man that had me on the edge of my seat...... shame the picture isn't a bit clearer!!!

A few years after that incident I was lucky enough to go for a ride in the back seat of an A4 with Force up front, now that was a great ride :ok:

[Sqwark2000]

I think right at the end when pilot says "You ready with me?" there's a distinct "Oh F@#k" coming from the back seat... fully justified as well I'd say :ok:

[Miatamad]

There was an OHHHHHHHHHHH F##K from the back seat at the end.

[flyinkiwi]

Here's an article about the engineering work that took place after the event to prevent future recurrences:

IPENZ Engineers New Zealand (http://www.ipenz.org.nz/ipenz/publications/engineering-NZ/volume52-1997/1997-02-feb/columns/c15.htm)

[mickjoebill]

Hope you dont mind these questions:)

If it is important to eject simultaneously why is there not a single control that activates both seats?
What are the consequences of not ejecting simultaneously?
Is it feasible for rear seated crew to eject "early" but pilot stay with craft a little longer in an effort to save it?!!

In watching a few ejection videos it seems that immediatly prior to ejection that speed is not always traded for height, is slower and higher is a good idea or is a nose up attitude at moment of ejection undesirable?


Mickjoebill

[gerry111]

MJB,


I think that it all depends on the particular aircraft. For example: When I had a 'jolly' in the back seat of a RAAF Mirage in 1980, it was important for the back seat to leave before the front as there were conflicting flight paths for the then Martin Baker Mark Four seats.


I managed to score a flight in a RNZAF Skyhawk in 1981. With that aircraft there was no conflict that I remember. Only the professionalism of the Captain making sure that his crew abandoned ship before him! I think that the same applied to the RAAF Macchi flight that I scored in 1978.


Being then young and more adventurous, I wouldn't have minded being the first Australian troop to score a Martin Baker tie. Bravo Miatamad!

[Miatamad]

So many questions and so many variables,. In the 339CB there was a command eject where the rear seat handle could activate both seats. There was no 'flight path' conflict as the rocket packs were set up differently for the front and rear seats (from memory rear seat went left front seat went right).

Mostly it was based on crew....the engine start functions were only in the front seat (everything else was pretty much replicated front to back) so often the instructor was in the rear. Command eject meant the instructor could eject both occupants but the student couldn't eject the instructor. OR the seats could be set to fire independently especially useful when non-aircrew went up they were obviously in the back (as the start functions were in the front the pilot had to sit in the front).

There was a blast screen between the two cockpits so there was no timing issue.

That's what my old memory tells me.

[Miatamad]

for what it's worth ........ got these out of my adventure (assuming the link works)

https://www.facebook.com/stephen.gyde/media_set?set=a.10152480769835709.1073741846.634660708&type=3

[gerry111]

Miatamad,
I couldn't get the link to work. But I'm fascinated in your adventure that day.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

In watching a few ejection videos it seems that immediatly prior to ejection that speed is not always traded for height, is slower and higher is a good idea or is a nose up attitude at moment of ejection undesirable?

It's a bit dry and long, and may not be that relevant nowadays, but this may answer some of your questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09DckvwFrXY&list=PLF3547A969BFA8A2A&index=3